Terrorist plot thwarted?

[RodH]

News is coming out that the Australian Federal Authorities have foiled an allegedged terrorist plot to use an IED to bring down an Airliner.
More to come !

[Airbubba]

From Australia's ABC:

Sydney terror raids 'disrupted' plot to bring down plane, Malcolm Turnbull says

Updated 30 minutes ago

Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull says anti-terrorism raids carried out in Sydney yesterday "disrupted" an alleged plot to bring down an aircraft.

Key points:
AFP says operation related to information about use of "improvised device"
Extra security measures put in place at major airports, travellers advised to allow extra time for security screening
Australia's terror threat level remains at probable

Four men were arrested after the Australian Federal Police, New South Wales Police and ASIO raided homes in the inner-city suburb of Surry Hills, and the south-western suburbs of Lakemba, Wiley Park and Punchbowl.
The AFP said the operation related to information about the use of an "improvised device".

"We don't have a great deal of information on the specific attack, the location, date or time, however, we're investigating information indicating the aviation industry was potentially a target of that attack," AFP Commissioner Andrew Colvin said.

Mr Turnbull said the "major counter-terrorism operation" was ongoing, and extra security measures have been put in place at major airports.

He said those with plans to travel should do so with confidence, but allow extra time for security screening because of the extra security.

"Some of the measures will be obvious to the public, some will not be — those travelling should go about their business with confidence," Mr Turnbull said.

"The Office of Transport Security has advised security screening will take longer.

"Travellers should arrive at terminals at least two hours before flights to allow ample time for screening.

"They should limit the amount of carry-on and checked baggage, as this will help to ensure that security screening is efficient."

'The key to keeping Australians safe'

Mr Turnbull said the overnight operation was continuing.

"This is an example of the outstanding work that is conducted by the joint counter-terrorism team, which consists of the Australian Federal Police, the New South Wales Police, ASIO, and the New South Wales Crime Commission," he said.

"The tight cooperation and collaboration between our intelligence and security agencies is the key to keeping Australians safe from terrorism.

"Last night's disruption operations are a very good example of the way in which our agencies are delivering our commitment to keep Australians safe."

A woman who told the ABC her son and husband were arrested after her Surry Hills house was raided denied they had any links to terrorism.

"I love Australia," she said as she was accompanied to a waiting car by police.
Since 2014, 70 people have been charged as a result of 31 counter-terrorism operations around the country.

Australia's terror threat level remains at probable.

Sydney terror raids 'disrupted' plot to bring down plane, Malcolm Turnbull says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-30/plot-to-bring-down-plane-disrupted,-pm-says-after-sydney-raids/8757386)

[Berealgetreal]

So baggage handlers, cleaners, caterers and engineers to be screened from today?
Or just more window dressing? Can't believe the real holes in security haven't been raised yet. Too expensive too hard. Then the outcome is obvious isn't it.

[shortshortz]

Agree Berealgetreal, just ridiculous they aren't.

[cooperplace]

So baggage handlers, cleaners, caterers and engineers to be screened from today?
Or just more window dressing? Can't believe the real holes in security haven't been raised yet. Too expensive too hard. Then the outcome is obvious isn't it.

but they all have to get an ASIC don't they?

[neville_nobody]

All this and they haven't even laid charges.

[CurtainTwitcher]

but they all have to get an ASIC don't they?
Pilots have ASIC's too, yet they are screened. They are "trusted" to do the right thing given the almost unlimited possibility for nefarious activity [Germanwings].


The screening pilots yet, not groundstaff with airside access seems to logically indefensible.

[Band a Lot]

Pilots have ASIC's too, yet they are screened. They are "trusted" to do the right thing given the almost unlimited possibility for nefarious activity [Germanwings].


The screening pilots yet, not groundstaff with airside access seems to logically indefensible.

How about a job as a "cleaner" 650 m from runway intersection point in a multi story hotel at the 8th busiest airport in the country. CES on a last sitting day with minimal training required.

No ASIC required and an explosive diversion exit option just below.


https://www.canberraairport.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/New_terminal_2016_cropped.jpg

[Glorified Dus Briver]

Everytime one of these headlines pops up, I love reading the interviews with the neighbours;

The family who lived in the raided house on Cleveland Street in Surry Hills have been described as “perfectly nice and normal people” by a neighbour.
“We knew them to say hello to and they seemed nice,” the woman in her early 30s, who didn’t want to be identified, told AAP.



Well, :mad: genius...do you expect them to broadcast with a sign post saying "planning terrorist activities"? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[SHVC]

Has anyone experienced longer than usual screening? I'm just waiting for an email from the company asking to allow an additional __ minutes on top of the additional for a certain bus service.

[QuarterInchSocket]

but they all have to get an ASIC don't they?

Don't let the facts get in the way of an opportunistic, pretentious laced pot shot.

[goodonyamate]

Security screening is associated with your duty, therefore, if they want you to allow extra time, for security, they can roster you for it. :D

[shortshortz]

Don't let the facts get in the way of an opportunistic, pretentious laced pot shot.

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/rap-sheets-for-20-per-cent-of-airport-staff-ng-b88431042z

Pot shot or not, in time I'd be surprised if things don't change

[QFcrew]

It is interesting that with all the 'heightened security' of the past few years that ramp, cargo and catering staff are never subjected to physical checks. As for the ASIC card, all staff that have access to aircraft, or things that go onto aircraft, should be subject to the Australian Government Security Vetting System (AGSVA) process, just like any public servant has to. It's not perfect, but it is a hell of a lot more comprehensive than the current ASIC process. ASIC is basically just a criminal record check. The AGSVA process looks into your allegiances, associates etc and you have to be an Australian citizen to go through it.

[AerialPerspective]

Pilots have ASIC's too, yet they are screened. They are "trusted" to do the right thing given the almost unlimited possibility for nefarious activity [Germanwings].


The screening pilots yet, not groundstaff with airside access seems to logically indefensible.
Not exactly correct, ground staff includes customer service (check in/gate staff) and they most definitely DO go through security.
Having said that, I agree, always thought it was a hole that needed to be plugged that no one airside below the first floor was screened.
Then you had the stupidity of a legitimate employee going from the sterile area to the ramp to deliver a message who then gets told by AFP that he/she has to go back into the terminal and go through security again - a completely impractical situation where someone's duties are focussed on the gate area. Screening everyone would obviate this then everyone could move as required by their duties on the airside (inside or out) as they would all be screened. Catering is another area that needs attention.

[AerialPerspective]

Has anyone experienced longer than usual screening? I'm just waiting for an email from the company asking to allow an additional __ minutes on top of the additional for a certain bus service.
Ground staff engaged in their duties in the terminal are usually allowed to go to the front of the queue for screening. Should be the same for Crew one would think.

[Capn Bloggs]

they can roster you for it.
Provided they set up a sign-on computer prior to the security station... ;) :{

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Then you had the stupidity of a legitimate employee going from the sterile area to the ramp to deliver a message who then gets told by AFP that he/she has to go back into the terminal and go through security again

Which is why the AFP are not responsible for airside security, as they, like most pilots, don't know the regs.

[AerialPerspective]

Which is why the AFP are not responsible for airside security, as they, like most pilots, don't know the regs.
I think it was more a case of "Not much to do so we'll just run interference to make it look like we're doing stuff".

No problem with security being at the highest levels but with people administering it who know what they're talking about.

[VHFRT]

I know of an FO who was nearly crash tackled at a regional airport for talking to a child on the other side of the fence during a walk around. He got dragged outside of the terminal and back through security. Yet those throwing the bags on the other end of the plane just walk straight out.

It's all a show, much like I suspect this "raid" will turn out to be.

[Jeps]

I know of an FO who was nearly crash tackled at a regional airport for talking to a child on the other side of the fence during a walk around. He got dragged outside of the terminal and back through security. Yet those throwing the bags on the other end of the plane just walk straight out.

It's all a show, much like I suspect this "raid" will turn out to be.

Was the kid handing the FO his hands that he had left at home? The pilots most dangerous weapon of all.

[mrdeux]

I expect this will lead to a requirement for Apple, etc, to break the encryption on their phones. They just needed an excuse.

[QuarterInchSocket]

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/rap-sheets-for-20-per-cent-of-airport-staff-ng-b88431042z

Pot shot or not, in time I'd be surprised if things don't change

Wouldn't that suggest that there are problems with company recruiting and ASIC issuance standards rather than how ground-dwellers get checked?

Like you though, I'd be surprised if things didn't change on the whole FOR EVERYONE, not just the pilots' <perceived> "subordinates".

I mean, the government just dropped a bit of coin and made changes on/to the security portfolio. It was only a matter of time...

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

The situation at the moment is that cleaners, caterers, engineers etc have not been found to have contributed to any incidents, however, tech crew, passengers, and checked baggage have, so guess where the focus is.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Mr 'T',

But, caterers and cleaners have been involved in various smuggling activities - we've seen that on the TV docos - presumably for the $$'s, so if we substitute 'other activities' for the $$'s, what do you reckon your chances are of finding someone 'sympathetic to the cause' who will comply...??

Cheers, but NO cheers for 'the cause'...:eek:

[mppgf]

When have Tech Crew ever been involved in anything that security screening could ever have an impact on ?

[neville_nobody]

Ancillary workers and baggage handlers have strong unions so therefore are much harder for the government to push around. Also if there is a Labor Government in power those groups have ministers who are sympathetic to their cause.

Pilots on the other hand are very much an easy soft political target. Just look at the unchallenged ridiculous statements being made at the those Senate Inquiries a few years back.

[Sunfish]

QFcrew: ASIC is basically just a criminal record check. The AGSVA process looks into your allegiances, associates etc and you have to be an Australian citizen to go through it.

Have you any idea of the cost and complexity of mandating such a process? Obviously not.

Furthermore, such a mandate would give governments absolute intrusive powers that you can be sure will be abused. For example, having to disclose the details of the family black sheep, your former marriages and the details of associates that have no relation to your primary daily task.

i have experience of this absurd crap. i have a nephew with a criminal record and another pair of relatives in let us say, the judiciary. None of us are even allowed to talk to this kid, let alone try and assist his rehabilitation, thanks to goddamned criminal association reporting requirements for the judiciary, which can see them lose their jobs for associating with criminals. is that the sort of rubbish you want to visit on pilots? everyone has stuff they do not wish to air and do not and should not be forced to reveal it unless it is directly relevant to their daily employment.

furthermore, such a regime by definition, would apply to a lot more jobs than mere pilots.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Sorry, I was a little too precise, the regs just say "crew", however the pax are far more at risk from the flight crew. One could argue that the fact that screening occurs causes the aberrant pilot to resort to other means ie locking other pilot out of the cockpit, rather than using a weapon carried on board to incapacitate or eliminate the other pilot.

[psycho joe]

No one in the media or government seem to realise that this action has now created choke points where crowds are amassed in the terminal prior to being screened. If you wanted to give terrorists a target of opportunity then the authorities couldn't do better than this. If yer average terry wrist was smarter than they normally are, I'd say that this was well orchestrated.

[neville_nobody]

If yer average terry wrist was smarter than they normally are, I'd say that this was well orchestrated.

If they were actually fair dinkum why would you waste your time trying to attack aircraft/airports? It totally illogical given the number of soft targets out there.

[patty50]

Why haven't air crew lobbied for a similiar system to the US known crewmember? Coming to pprune to complain that other low risk airport workers don't get xrayed doesn't help anyone. The checks in place are sufficient to mitigate the specific threats that ground staff pose.

The AGSVA process looks into your allegiances, associates etc and you have to be an Australian citizen to go through it.

Sydney Airport would be in a lot of trouble if ASICs were only given to Australian citizens with no nefarious connections.

[psycho joe]

If they were actually fair dinkum why would you waste your time trying to attack aircraft/airports? It totally illogical given the number of soft targets out there.

Au contraire. There's nothing to stop a few individuals from simultaneously walking into the main east coast terminals and up to a crowd at the screening point with a baggage trolley loaded full of stuff that goes bang. The subsequent loss of life, terror and economic damage would be unprecedented.

Explosive screening involving dogs and cops should occur well before anyone enters the terminal, in a quarantined area (car park) before being bussed to the terminal. Similarly people arriving by train should be sniffed before entering the terminal. Thereby reducing access to crowds and infrastructure.
No terrorist seeks to blow up a carpark.

[F.Nose]

Sorry, I was a little too precise, the regs just say "crew", however the pax are far more at risk from the flight crew. One could argue that the fact that screening occurs causes the aberrant pilot to resort to other means ie locking other pilot out of the cockpit, rather than using a weapon carried on board to incapacitate or eliminate the other pilot.

Either Pilot is quite capable of destroying the aircraft and everybody/thing in it without resorting to using a carry on weapon (or the one already on the flight deck) or by locking the other Pilot out.

The only security against flight crew is to make sure they are legitimate. The rest of the crew do this by default.

Rummaging through Flight Crew's bags looking for weapons whilst not giving a second glance at their ASIC is a sure sign of a bureaucracy gone mad!

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

The only security against flight crew is to make sure they are legitimate.

That hasn't helped so far, they all have been.

[chuboy]

Everyone knows a pilot can easily kamikaze an aircraft, including CASA.

If pilots could waltz through security and get airside without being scanned, that is a very obvious hole in the system that could easily be exploited. Either the pilot carries the weapon knowingly through security before passing it on an accomplice who was scanned already and came up clean (thus allowing an atrocity to take place without having to kill oneself), or some enterprising terrorists sneak the necessary pieces into the flight bag etc and get them out again once airside - distract and switch with a similar roller bag, whatever.

I mean it's far fetched but not that far fetched.

[Deano969]

Has anyone heard which airline was the likely target ?
It can only be QF or one of the ME3
Be interesting to know which one...

[Capt Kremin]

There was a QF callsign on some of the evidence shown on 9 News this evening. Couldn't make it out though.

[wheels_down]

See the attached news report, look closely you will see the carriers logo.


No Cookies | Daily Telegraph (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/sydney-counterterrorism-raids-jihadis-plotted-meat-mincer-bomb-attack-to-blow-up-flight/news-story/adc1491aa8be75032a94dde8f957f517)

[QuarterInchSocket]

Doesn't matter really. I expect the same affect if the act were planned for another service provider. Good work by security services.

One thing that the 104 page report neglects to take in to account is the vigilance maintained by the RESPONSIBLE personnel on the other side of the fence.

Hell, i can barely scratch my arse these days without someone asking why.

[Capt Kremin]

See the attached news report, look closely you will see the carriers logo.


No Cookies | Daily Telegraph (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/sydney-counterterrorism-raids-jihadis-plotted-meat-mincer-bomb-attack-to-blow-up-flight/news-story/adc1491aa8be75032a94dde8f957f517)

Jakarta - Sydney service.

[havick]

Everyone knows a pilot can easily kamikaze an aircraft, including CASA.

If pilots could waltz through security and get airside without being scanned, that is a very obvious hole in the system that could easily be exploited. Either the pilot carries the weapon knowingly through security before passing it on an accomplice who was scanned already and came up clean (thus allowing an atrocity to take place without having to kill oneself), or some enterprising terrorists sneak the necessary pieces into the flight bag etc and get them out again once airside - distract and switch with a similar roller bag, whatever.

I mean it's far fetched but not that far fetched.

ever heard of KCM in the US?

[Berealgetreal]

The issue of screening all or none (baggage handlers, engineers etc) is no doubt a cost one. One that would be resolved overnight if an attack happened via these means. It's a totally reactive system and the politicians do what they need to do to avoid spending where they can. For them it's purely about staying in power nothing more nothing less.

I've always said "you screen everyone or you screen no one."

Here's the kicker: what if the current intelligence forces don't pick up 100% of the threats? All you need is 1% to get through and it's all over red rover. In the face of this, the encrypted software needs to go.

A National ID card and DNA register would solve a lot of problems and crimes but also create a lot of problems and be a massive loss of privacy.

I don't have a problem with it as I've got nothing to hide. Having said that, I can see very much how it could become a problem (the point sunfish makes).

Pilot A has been in the industry for 15 years with an unblemished record but is related to someone who is being watched by the authorities. Now what? Ultimately being related doesn't mean you are connected (quite the opposite in some families!). There are people at the airport today that are in this very situation.

I think the encryption issue is probably the quickest least expensive way to trap most of the problems and the government to its credit is trying on this front.

Spare a thought for the guys at security most of which are just doing a job. It would have to be the worst job, next to parking inspector, that I I could think of.

If we want maximum protection then we have to give into the screening and the loss civil liberties. In ways you have to wonder if it's really worth it as its being pointed out that there is no 100% fool proof system.

[cooperplace]

Don't let the facts get in the way of an opportunistic, pretentious laced pot shot.

er, can you explain what you mean by that?

[QuarterInchSocket]

Either I misinterpreted the sense of the comment/s prior, or the user changed their tune. If the former, I apologise. My sense of the comment was that the user was being petulant because he has to get screened and the ground-staff don't. This seems to be apparent also in AIPA's submission/s, from my perspective, in the 104 page report. It is my view that crew are public facing, and if the public are expected to be put through the ringer, then the public might want to see the crew put through the ringer too - else, the public may ask questions and start forming the opinion that if crew do not need to be screened entering sterile areas, why should they?

On the matter of screening ground-staff outside of the sterile areas -
without breaking into intrinsic detail, screening isn't going to help at all. Not unless the screening occurs at entry points to every aircraft, up top AND down below. A metal detector and X-ray check at the door MAY mitigate a tiny fraction of infringements. But that check then gets blown out of the water (rendered useless) once we're on the other side.

Based on historical occurrences and present threat levels, I just think money would be better spend on the dog & handler solution and giving increased jurisdiction for them that extends to airplanes, up and down, if it doesn't already. This to me would better meet requirements and act as an adequate deterrent for those harbouring ill intent.

Some dirty big German Shepherds and a few Beagles should do the trick.

[cooperplace]

my point is that everyone who goes airside has to get an ASIC, but that the screening process for a lot of these people leaves a lot to be desired, as shown by the stats quoted by others here that eg. lots of baggage handlers have convictions for drug trafficking. To me it beggars belief that anyone can have a conviction for drug trafficking offences and still get an ASIC to work as a baggage handler. I don't think expressing that view is being pretentious or petulant. I think most members of the public, who endure security screening and see flight crew doing the same, would assume that all airside workers have to go thru the same screening and would be amazed that this isn't so.

[Icarus2001]

my point is that everyone who goes airside has to get an ASIC,

Except foreign crews. Of course all airside staff know what a foreign type of ASIC looks like to verify its authenticity don't they? Or they can tell a pilot because they have dark trousers and a white shirt?

[cooperplace]

Except foreign crews. Of course all airside staff know what a foreign type of ASIC looks like to verify its authenticity don't they? Or they can tell a pilot because they have dark trousers and a white shirt?

Good point. How many countries have no equivalent to the ASIC?

[QuarterInchSocket]

I don't disagree with the reasoning at all - it is valid. It was more the tone of the expression but I don't want to digress, so I'll leave it there.

Suffice to say - we've been bleating on for years about questionable characters being dragged in off the street and brought into the aviation domain. It is too bad we're in a public forum, because I'm sure you and I can beat a story or two about ASIC's. I know I can, and I can give examples that reflect a broken system.

I reiterate one of my initial posts in that company recruiting and ASIC issuance standards should be brought into question and if the government are hell bent on spending money then they can come up with something better than the ineffective would-be strategy of screening ground staff at the doors.

[Sunfish]

Berealgetreal: Pilot A has been in the industry for 15 years with an unblemished record but is related to someone who is being watched by the authorities. Now what? Ultimately being related doesn't mean you are connected (quite the opposite in some families!). There are people at the airport today that are in this very situation.

I think the encryption issue is probably the quickest least expensive way to trap most of the problems and the government to its credit is trying on this front.

My dear Sir, I think you are just a tad naive.

"ultimately being related doesn't mean connected". I'm afraid it does in the eyes of the law. If you have a criminal acquaintance, and you have a clearance of some sort, any communication of any type with them must be reported.

What happens next can be "sorry son, we are removing you from operations, nothing personal against you but we cannot take the chance, etc." It is important to understand that such a decision is not arguable, appealable or subject to review because its 'operational". Your career is now in tatters. This threat has already been made to a relative.

Under such a scheme there will be no moslem pilots in Australia and no pilots with moslem friends or relations.

To put that another way; can't you just see the newspapers screaming: "Pilot of crashed aircraft knew Imam!".

As for encryption breaking - also a waste of time because you assume that 100% of communications will be scanned, which they won't and effectiveness isn't going to be 100% either.

What you don't understand as well is that the authorities are incapable of differentiating between a business related comment: "I'd like to put a bomb under Qantas" - meaning the speaker doesn't like their business model or customer service received but has no intention of violence, and someone with real terrorist intent. Furthermore the authorities are quite likely to confuse the two different intents when it suits them.

[Derfred]

The issue of screening all or none (baggage handlers, engineers etc) is no doubt a cost one. One that would be resolved overnight if an attack happened via these means. It's a totally reactive system and the politicians do what they need to do to avoid spending where they can. For them it's purely about staying in power nothing more nothing less.

I've always said "you screen everyone or you screen no one."

Here's the kicker: what if the current intelligence forces don't pick up 100% of the threats? All you need is 1% to get through and it's all over red rover. In the face of this, the encrypted software needs to go.

A National ID card and DNA register would solve a lot of problems and crimes but also create a lot of problems and be a massive loss of privacy.

I don't have a problem with it as I've got nothing to hide. Having said that, I can see very much how it could become a problem (the point sunfish makes).

Pilot A has been in the industry for 15 years with an unblemished record but is related to someone who is being watched by the authorities. Now what? Ultimately being related doesn't mean you are connected (quite the opposite in some families!). There are people at the airport today that are in this very situation.

I think the encryption issue is probably the quickest least expensive way to trap most of the problems and the government to its credit is trying on this front.

Spare a thought for the guys at security most of which are just doing a job. It would have to be the worst job, next to parking inspector, that I I could think of.

If we want maximum protection then we have to give into the screening and the loss civil liberties. In ways you have to wonder if it's really worth it as its being pointed out that there is no 100% fool proof system.

What you are proposing is basically George Orwell's 1984.

Yes, it's possible we could all be safer with cameras in every room of the house and no encryption. After all, what have the good guys to hide?

But Benjamin Franklin's famous quote resounds quite clearly in the current climate:

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

So, if I may just pick a couple of words from your post:

If we want maximum protection then...

Who ever said we want maximum protection?

And from what? How many aircraft are exploding in the skies?

And at what cost?

A threat has just been thwarted, the system appears to be working.

If terrorism wasn't so dramatic that it constantly occupies front page news, we might be able to get on with dealing with the real threats to our society, such as suicide, domestic violence, crystal meth and the road toll.

I still feel safer in my cockpit than driving to work.

With regards to the encryption argument, if we let the good guys monitor our communication, then we let the bad guys do it too. That would backfire on us big time.

Bad Guy: "Hey, Fred, thanks to the Governments encryption back-door, I have hacked your teenage daughter's phone and I found a photo of her masturbating naked. It'll go on the internet tomorrow, unless of course I can borrow your ASIC for a couple of days..."

Fred: "Here's my ASIC..."

We all have something to hide.

[Flying Binghi]

Terrorist plot solved by the labor party. We can get back to other programming now...

"...Labor's Sandra Nelson, the Northern Territory Assistant Minister for the Prevention of Family Violence, sneers that the arrest of four Sydney men over an alleged plot to bring down an airplane could be a political stunt: “Polling for LNP not good. Therefore we now have a ‘terrorist attack’. How convenient..."

No Cookies | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/labor-mps-conspiracy-theory/news-story/241fcfd25c43f17223bff23353c47f84)





.

[cooperplace]

I don't disagree with the reasoning at all - it is valid. It was more the tone of the expression but I don't want to digress, so I'll leave it there.

Suffice to say - we've been bleating on for years about questionable characters being dragged in off the street and brought into the aviation domain. It is too bad we're in a public forum, because I'm sure you and I can beat a story or two about ASIC's. I know I can, and I can give examples that reflect a broken system.

I reiterate one of my initial posts in that company recruiting and ASIC issuance standards should be brought into question and if the government are hell bent on spending money then they can come up with something better than the ineffective would-be strategy of screening ground staff at the doors.

I think we're in furious agreement, as Christopher Pyne would say.

[AerialPerspective]

my point is that everyone who goes airside has to get an ASIC, but that the screening process for a lot of these people leaves a lot to be desired, as shown by the stats quoted by others here that eg. lots of baggage handlers have convictions for drug trafficking. To me it beggars belief that anyone can have a conviction for drug trafficking offences and still get an ASIC to work as a baggage handler. I don't think expressing that view is being pretentious or petulant. I think most members of the public, who endure security screening and see flight crew doing the same, would assume that all airside workers have to go thru the same screening and would be amazed that this isn't so.
I don't disagree. I would just say that I would like to know the details of the 'drug offences' as I don't trust the media not to be just using that blanket term to get an attention grabbing headline. We could be talking about someone who 20 years ago got caught smoking a joint for goodness sake.
However, I've always been of the opinion and always will be that there should be a threshold level of record over which you NEVER get employed in the industry or get an ASIC.
People can bleat all they like about civil rights (of which I am a strong proponent) but this industry is just too sensitive and open to causing mass casualty that if you do something criminal in your life, you cancel your 'ticket' so to speak as regards getting a job in the industry or anything connected directly to it.
I don't know if it still happens but the system used to take SO long to get an ASIC that people were working sensitive areas for months before they were found to be ineligible. Using Visitor Passes and Temp IDs is a joke because you're expecting a person who is 'escorting' them to take on a massive responsibility.

[wondrousbitofrough]

I'm surprised one of the newspapers hasn't exposed security for what it is by smuggling a reporter airside in a catering truck or something similar. Happened in the UK and security was tightened overnight.

[Snakecharma]

As someone who is potentially at risk if one of these nutters succeeds, i feel that I am at least entitled to express an opinion.

If we took a step back and looked at the bigger, broader picture, which is what is killing our friends, loved ones etc, the answer isnt religious based terrorism, it isnt driving half a km/hr over the speed limit, it isnt a whole bunch of things that we regularly throw money at.

It is cancer, it is heart disease, it is suicide and mental health issues, negative health outcomes caused by the medical profession just to name a few.

I reckon we would get more value for money trying to save more people rather than spending on airport security theatre, "every k kills" bull**** ad campaigns amd other such populist nonsense.

By all means have an effective security apparatus at the airport, an effective surveillance and intelligence capability to stop nutters from doing stuff, but lets focus our efforts where we can really save lives.

After all this all ramped up after 9/11, a tragic event that needlessly took the lives of 3-4000 people (sorry cant remember the correct number) but taking a broader, less emotional view, only 3-4000 people, compared to the millions killed by the other causes.

If we invest in cancer research, in research into heart disease, in research into mental health and suicide prevention, we will save far more people than we have by throwing dollar after dollar into the pocket of people whose only incentive is trade on our fear, and the fear of our politicians, when they recommend tighter and stricter security measures at airports etc.

On a per head saved basis, the investment in aviation security in particular, would not pass the pub test if it were relabelled and presented to the general public for review.

[Sunfish]

"An effective ASIC system???????? Anyone remember the poor housewife who finally got an airline job, only to have her ASIC approval rejected because she stuffed up her welfare payment some time before and got prosecuted? Not having a million dollars to defend herself she had pleaded guilty.

Go and look at the AAT decisions database and search with"aviation security" look at the poor saps who lost their licence or were denied an ASIC anda job for no good reason.

[IsDon]

"An effective ASIC system???????? Anyone remember the poor housewife who finally got an airline job, only to have her ASIC approval rejected because she stuffed up her welfare payment some time before and got prosecuted? Not having a million dollars to defend herself she had pleaded guilty.

Go and look at the AAT decisions database and search with"aviation security" look at the poor saps who lost their licence or were denied an ASIC anda job for no good reason.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilal_Khazal

I get what you're saying Sunfish, but do want to risk guys like this around aircraft again?

[Sunfish]

IsDon: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilal_Khazal

I get what you're saying Sunfish, but do want to risk guys like this around aircraft again?

Given that Khazal was on a watch list already, why would updated screening produce a better result?

I am concerned that many pilots are falling for the tabloid newspaper philosophy that generates hysteria in the general public and does not account either for the cost of security measures, their efficiency or their unintended consequences.

Examples:

A drunken New Years Eve kiss to a female police officer can get you branded as a registered sex offender for life.

A drunken brawl at a pub (your fault or not) and a conviction for assault means you are never getting an ASIC and can kiss an aviation career goodbye.

Then there was the aforementioned lass who found an aviation job, but a Centrelink overpayment turned into a crime of dishonesty, so no ASIC.

Now of course there is the entire "domestic violence" feminist push that could potentially see you convicted without even the possibility of cross examining the accuser and with the onus of proof reversed.

Ask yourself if you really want to trust your employment to faceless bureaucrats with arbitrary powers.

Oh! And Khazal is still appealing.....


[QUOTE]On 25 September 2009 the Supreme Court of New South Wales sentenced Bilal Khazal to 14 years in prison, with a non-parole period of 9 years, for producing a book whilst knowing it was connected with assisting a terrorist attack that would happen in Australia. In 2011 the conviction was overturned[1] and Khazal was granted bail by the Supreme Court of New South Wales in Sydney on 7 June 2011, after spending nearly three years in jail. Mr Khazal's barrister, Charles Waterstreet, said that his jail conditions had been "just one step down from Guantánamo Bay".[citation needed] The Australian Commonwealth appealed to the High Court of Australia which in August 2012 unanimously overturned the earlier dismissal and Khazal's bail was revoked by the NSW Court of Criminal Appeal. That court is yet to hear an appeal against his original sentence./QUOTE]

[IsDon]

IsDon:

Given that Khazal was on a watch list already, why would updated screening produce a better result?

I am concerned that many pilots are falling for the tabloid newspaper philosophy that generates hysteria in the general public and does not account either for the cost of security measures, their efficiency or their unintended consequences.

Examples:

A drunken New Years Eve kiss to a female police officer can get you branded as a registered sex offender for life.

A drunken brawl at a pub (your fault or not) and a conviction for assault means you are never getting an ASIC and can kiss an aviation career goodbye.

Then there was the aforementioned lass who found an aviation job, but a Centrelink overpayment turned into a crime of dishonesty, so no ASIC.

Now of course there is the entire "domestic violence" feminist push that could potentially see you convicted without even the possibility of cross examining the accuser and with the onus of proof reversed.

Ask yourself if you really want to trust your employment to faceless bureaucrats with arbitrary powers.

Oh! And Khazal is still appealing.....


[QUOTE]On 25 September 2009 the Supreme Court of New South Wales sentenced Bilal Khazal to 14 years in prison, with a non-parole period of 9 years, for producing a book whilst knowing it was connected with assisting a terrorist attack that would happen in Australia. In 2011 the conviction was overturned[1] and Khazal was granted bail by the Supreme Court of New South Wales in Sydney on 7 June 2011, after spending nearly three years in jail. Mr Khazal's barrister, Charles Waterstreet, said that his jail conditions had been "just one step down from Guantánamo Bay".[citation needed] The Australian Commonwealth appealed to the High Court of Australia which in August 2012 unanimously overturned the earlier dismissal and Khazal's bail was revoked by the NSW Court of Criminal Appeal. That court is yet to hear an appeal against his original sentence./QUOTE]

I really don't get your point. Are you saying there shouldn't be any background checks because these checks are of little practical value and they might exclude someone who is not a threat? Presumably then anyone can work airside?
Are you just taking the piss?

The theatre that is airport screening of passengers and crew is a bureaucratic joke I'll grant you that. Especially once you consider that a large proportion of airside workers can just walk through a turnstile with the most rudimentary of security checks, or none at all. If this is your point I agree with you completely.

Behind the scenes checks of all operational and airside working staff is still important however. I don't want the likes of Kahzal anywhere near my aeroplane. Loading it, fuelling it, catering it, being a passenger in it, sitting in a tinny off the extended centreline of 16R with an RPG or waving at it from his backyard in Lakemba. If ASICs are what is required then so be it.

The real heavy lifting keeping our skies free from terrorism is not done by the security numbskulls at our airports. It's done by the invisible agencies using intelligence gained locally, and in collaboration with our international equivalents that have the greatest impact. You want bang for your buck, then spend it here. Not on white elephant full body scanners.

[Berealgetreal]

Deferred, I'm not "proposing" anything and might i add, NOTHING will change UNTIL there is a hull loss. Then Twitter, Facebook and Instagram will dictate what happens and when.

[AerialPerspective]

As someone who is potentially at risk if one of these nutters succeeds, i feel that I am at least entitled to express an opinion.

If we took a step back and looked at the bigger, broader picture, which is what is killing our friends, loved ones etc, the answer isnt religious based terrorism, it isnt driving half a km/hr over the speed limit, it isnt a whole bunch of things that we regularly throw money at.

It is cancer, it is heart disease, it is suicide and mental health issues, negative health outcomes caused by the medical profession just to name a few.

I reckon we would get more value for money trying to save more people rather than spending on airport security theatre, "every k kills" bull**** ad campaigns amd other such populist nonsense.

By all means have an effective security apparatus at the airport, an effective surveillance and intelligence capability to stop nutters from doing stuff, but lets focus our efforts where we can really save lives.

After all this all ramped up after 9/11, a tragic event that needlessly took the lives of 3-4000 people (sorry cant remember the correct number) but taking a broader, less emotional view, only 3-4000 people, compared to the millions killed by the other causes.

If we invest in cancer research, in research into heart disease, in research into mental health and suicide prevention, we will save far more people than we have by throwing dollar after dollar into the pocket of people whose only incentive is trade on our fear, and the fear of our politicians, when they recommend tighter and stricter security measures at airports etc.

On a per head saved basis, the investment in aviation security in particular, would not pass the pub test if it were relabelled and presented to the general public for review.
Brilliantly put... and so true... as the saying goes... a person is more likely to be killed by a piece of furniture than a terrorist and in the USA, even with 9/11 and other 'home grown' events (although the white kid in the church doesn't seem to be called a terrorist for some reason even though he committed mass murder with a political motive... white supremecy, etc.).

In the United States, a person is more likely to be shot dead by a toddler who gets hold of a gun than by a terrorist.

Where is the super ministry to deal with domestic violence???

Aside from the whole concept, the fact that Dutton is in charge is more frightening than any alleged terrorist threat.

[Derfred]

Today's Australian:

Pilots worried about aircraft security

Airline pilots are seriously concerned about inconsistencies in the security screening of ground and air staff at Australia's major airports.

The Australian Airline Pilots Association is questioning why its 5000 members are subjected to stricter screening than others with aircraft access, including baggage handlers, cleaners and catering staff.

"It's an inconsistency that needs to be rectified, particularly in light of the recently enhanced screening arrangements at Australian airports," president Murray Butt said on Wednesday.

The demand for action echoes calls by transport workers and federal police as airport security is tightened following an alleged foiled plot to bomb or gas a passenger plane out of Sydney.

Pilots are also unconvinced about private contractors doing security screening rather than a government agency.

Captain Butt says these issues have been raised with the government in the past but have fallen on deaf ears.

Senator Nick Xenophon, who spearheaded a recent inquiry into aviation security, will urge the government to plug the screening gap when parliament returns next week.

"I have great respect for the work that ground crew at airports do but this loophole fails to pass the most cursory of pub tests," he said.

The Transport Workers Union has also panned airport security, saying high staff turnover means workers without security clearance are being granted access to high-risk areas.

National secretary Tony Sheldon says casual staff are allowed behind the scenes without adequate training.

He wants a single authority in charge of national airport safety.

Police fear organised crime figures are getting work at airports and ports and exploiting their security passes to influence the screening of cargo and passengers.

More than 60 organisations and companies can issue aviation and maritime security identification cards, with the AFP warning the more people who can dish them out, the more vulnerable they become.

There are 250,000 aviation and maritime security cards issued but the regulator responsible cannot say how many workers have ceased employment and not given their cards back.

The passes are issued by organisations including airlines, the immigration department and port operators, and while the Office of Transport Security runs card-return campaigns, nobody has ever been fined for refusing.

The agency is investigating adding biometrics to security cards and cutting the number of issuers.

It is also boosting screening of airport staff working in restricted areas, expanding the scope of background checks and forcing those who issue ID cards to verify identities face-to-face.

Anyone with links to serious or organised crime would be blocked from getting identification cards under legislation before parliament.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

The Australian Airline Pilots Association is questioning why its 5000 members are subjected to stricter screening than others with aircraft access
But no more or less stricter screening than anyone else who will actually fly on the aircraft.
Pilots are also unconvinced about private contractors doing security screening rather than a government agency.
Because pilots hold government agencies, such as CASA and OTS, in such high esteem.
Police fear organised crime figures are getting work at airports and ports and exploiting their security passes to influence the screening of cargo and passengers.
This is the same police who after Corby pulled their pants down, massively ramped up their airport presence, only to have been bored stupid ever since because the airports were not the hotbeds of crime and corruption they thought they were.
National secretary Tony Sheldon says casual staff are allowed behind the scenes without adequate training.
But of much more concern to Tony, without union membership!
He wants a single authority in charge of national airport safety.

There is - it's called CASA.

Oh wait, does he really mean security?

There is - it's called OTS.

More than 60 organisations and companies can issue aviation and maritime security identification cards, with the AFP warning the more people who can dish them out, the more vulnerable they become.

They are hardly "dished" out, and are only issued after the FEDERAL agencies give the clearance, so it's a bit rich for the AFP to be whinging.

...and ports....maritime security identification cards.....maritime security cards....port operators....

Hang on, wasn't this about airport security? They do know that an ASIC can't be used at a port nor can an MSIC be used at an airport, surely?

There are 250,000 aviation and maritime security cards issued but the regulator responsible cannot say how many workers have ceased employment and not given their cards back.

Can the responsible regulator say how many drivers licenses have expired or been lost, but the holder continues to drive?

That article is a joke. How many barrows can be pushed in so few paragraphs? Was it written by GT?

[QuarterInchSocket]

Today's Australian:

Eeesh! What a load of crock... :yuk:

All I can say is that if we are to be given the same shake down as crew and pax at entry to the port, then there shall be no reasonable objection for me AT ALL climbing the aerobridge stairs, scanning my boarding pass then boarding a domestic service. I've been given the same shake down as crew and pax, haven't I?

Never mind that I've picked up a tool of my trade along the way and have forgotten to offload it prior to boarding.

Stupidity in spades :ugh:

[Sunfish]

All that increased security will do is destroy the careers of ground staff who did drugs ten years ago or got involved in petty crime. It will not increase security at all, merely give pilots a schadenfreude moment to see ground staff now as miserable as they are.

The thing pilots have forgotten is that ISIS linked terrorists are not stupid. They are not the idiots the AFP catches who attend dodgy mosques and research and discuss their plans over phones and the internet.

The real bad guys have military explosives training, a covert support network with excellent research capability, an effective security and communication system and plenty of money. You will not catch them with some ASIC card check or see them mouthing off about infidels in some Lakemba mosque. If they mount an operation, they will use cleanskins with all the documentation and security cards. One can only hope ASIO is disrupting their operations in secret.

To put that another way, the calibre of AFP operations and the clowns they have arrested and charged do not seem to me to be that professional. Neither do the acts of terrorism, however vile, already perpetrated in Australia because they were committed by self radicalising arse*****s and nutters. I fail to see why we need increased visible "security theatre" to combat them.

However the above is my opinion. The threats may be worse and more consistent. We will never know from reading "The Australian".

[Snakecharma]

Sunfish ground staff have asics already so anyone with a 10 year old drug conviction has already been caught out.

The pilots are saying that allowing one group unfettered, unscreened access to airside and all it entails leaves a security hole you could drive a mosque through.

The reality is that screening pilots IS theatre, as we walk onboard the aircraft with the weapons we need every time we step onboard - our hands.

The fairytale about people holding families to ransom unless they do something nefarious is more likely out of a Liam Neeson film than real life and as a group pilots have much more invested in their careers and by extension more to lose.

Granted there isnt much more to lose than your life if you are a terrorist intent on self destruction, but if we were to look at the demographics of the average modern day terrorist i dont think pilots would fit comfortably within the description.

On the other hand, poorly paid, over worked employees, often contractors who are in effect transient workers, may well be susceptible to radicalisation or manipulation by evil doers.

[CurtainTwitcher]

^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^
No schadenfreude what so ever.

[IsDon]

A system is only as good as its weakest link.

Currently that weakest link is airside staff that receive next to no screening. You can literally drive a truck through that hole.

Until this is fixed there is absolutely no point in beefing up security in other areas. The Australian article is spot on, although I wish the Tony Sheehans of this world would but out. He sees an opportunity to bolster union membership so his comments are clearly biased.

Either scan everyone heading airside to the same standard or just bin airport security completely and spend the money saved elsewhere on the intelligence gaining systems to spot the the problems before they get to an airport.

[Dexta]

Either scan everyone heading airside to the same standard or just bin airport security completely and spend the money saved elsewhere on the intelligence gaining systems to spot the the problems before they get to an airport.
Spend the money elsewhere. The hypocrisy of scanning is a waste of time and resources. If I happened to have a metal butter knife, fork and spoon in my bag I would not get through security yet when Im on the aircraft the cabin staff will happily hand me said cutlery with a smile.
The question is what is a weapon? The answer is anything if wielded by a person with intent to do harm. I remember an article which basically stated that properly trained cabin staff can identify an individual who has the potential to cause trouble 99% of the time by noticing certain behaviours etc.
Certainly scan checked baggage, remove baggage if a person fails to board the flight, check carry on luggage for obvious dangers (hand guns, sticks of explosives etc) but also have the trained staff and the laws to backup their decision to remove or restrain someone without the fear of political correctness destroying them and with the various agencies in the background who can act sooner rather than at the last minute for fear the courts will be more sympathetic to the poor potential terrorist and their rights rather than the right of thousands of others to travel safely.

[Sunfish]

Dexta, Snakecharma and others. What I am trying to say is that screening airside staff is about as useful as screening pilots. Furthermore, if Australia receives the attentions of real terrorists instead of the local clowns, then screening isn't going to stop them.

But hey, its just my opinion.

[Flying Binghi]

...The fairytale about people holding families to ransom unless they do something nefarious is more likely out of a Liam Neeson film than real life and as a group pilots have much more invested in their careers and by extension more to lose...


Before it happened the suggestion that Four jets would be used to fly into the WTC etc would have been passed of as the stuff of B grade movies.

Remember you are dealing with people who really believe they have 72 virgins awating them after they do their deadly work and that they will have an eternal erection and a fresh supply of virgins every day, forever.....





.

[Snakecharma]

Sunfish, i think we are all in agreement, just expressing it differently :)

[Lookleft]

So the legislation should be changed so that aircrew do not require screening or that all airport workers do require screening. It should be consistent. It doesn't matter whether they are "real" terrorists or just people intent on doing others harm through a violent act. If there is a gaping hole in the security of airports and aircraft then at the moment it is obvious where that hole is.

[QuarterInchSocket]

I like the idea that someone pitched in a previous post... spend the money on something else like... pilot mental health, cabin crew threat identification and management training, drug and bomb sniffer dogs... anything but the useless screening equipment at the doors.

Don't get me wrong, aviation security needs continuous improving and monitoring which is an idea I support, but creating screening for the sake of "we have to do it, why don't they?" is rubbish.

I only hope the government and its agencies have the foresight to know how ineffective door and gate screening could be if they yield to ALPA's whim-of-the-day... and I trust they will.

[Icarus2001]

A good start would be a crew only lane like I see overseas.

[thorn bird]

Guys,
all crew got screened at LHR back in the eighties.
Difference was it was dedicated crew screening including the crew bus. You were then driven to the aircraft no need to pass through the terminal.
Don't know if it still happens today

[Rodney Rotorslap]

Has anybody considered these terrorist issues may cease to exist if we stopped sending our "Defence Force" over to the middle east to help turn prosperous countries into failed states for the sake of cheap petrol? Thought not. You people need to start discussing the real issue and not the symptoms.

So you think it's wrong to fight those who would happily shoot a little girl in the head simply because she wants to go to school?

[CurtainTwitcher]

Rodney, before you go down that road, you may want to consider a little bit of history, Westerners have been poking the hornet nest for geopolitical reasons.
Zbigniew Brzezinski (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Brzezinski)(President Carter's security advisor)
Interview of Zbigniew Brzezinski Le Nouvel Observateur (France), Jan 15-21, 1998, p.
76*

http://www.counterpunch.org/brzezinski.html



Q: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the
Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in
Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national
security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that
correct?



Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen
began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec
1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was
July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents
of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in
which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military
intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself
desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

Brzezinski: It isn't quite that. We didn’t push the Russians to intervene, but we
knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight
against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn’t believe
them. However, there was a basis of truth. Y ou don't regret anything today?

Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of
drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the
Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the
opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow
had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the
demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic [integrisme], having given
arms and advice to future terrorists?

Brzezinski: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the
collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central
Europe and the end of the cold war?

Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated: Islamic fundamentalism
represents a world menace today.

Brzezinski: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam.

That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without
demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers.
But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco,
Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more
than what unites the Christian countries.

* There are at least two editions of this magazine; with the perhaps sole exception of the
Library of Congress, the version sent to the United States is shorter than the French
version, and the Brzezinski interview was not included in the shorter version.

The above has been translated from the French by Bill Blum author of the indispensible,
"Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II" and "Rogue

How Jimmy Carter and I Started the Mujahideen: Zbigniew Brzezinski (https://archive.org/stream/GeostrategyAndU.S.HegemonyAnAnalysisOfTheGrandChessboardAndB eyondByDavidA.Owen16/ZbigniewBrzezinski-HowJimmyCarterAndIStartedTheMujahideen-40_djvu.txt).

There has been western meddling in the Middle East since the crusades. Especially noteworthy is the post WWII era for a very strategic reason, energy.
U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT MEMO, AUGUST 1945:
The oil resources [of the Middle East] constitute a stupendous source of strategic
power, and one of the greatest material prizes in world history.
Blood and Oil Featuring Michael Klare (transcript) (http://www.mediaed.org/transcripts/Blood-and-Oil-Transcript.pdf)


YuOQ4KgTkAI

[Sunfish]

rodney rotorslap: So you think it's wrong to fight those who would happily shoot a little girl in the head simply because she wants to go to school?

yes i do. we seem to be quite happy to support torture, genocide and the murder of children when it suits us. My recollection is also that we quite liked the taliban governing afghanistan after they had defeated the russians and destroyed the opium fields. our esteemed colleagues in the USA have allegedly developed the habit of shooting black americans for no good reason. should we fight them too?

to put that another way, your "responsibility to protect" (R2P) argument fails because it is hypocritically and selectively applied by us.

[extralite]

The part i find amusing about all of this is that the original announcement by Turnbull, flanked by the police implied that it was the brilliant detective work of our law enforcement agencies that thwarted a sinister plot.

Over time it emerged that the real story is that the UK law enforcement told our guys what was going on and our local plod went and arrested the 3 blokes concerned. So the spin changed to how brilliantly we cooperate with other law enforcement agencies (by taking their call?) And the device didn't make it on the plane because it was overweight for hand luggage.

Is that an over-simplification? The hundreds of millions in bureaucracy and general dicking around of staff and passengers every day, all of this mutual backslapping about how we are world leaders in investigation, but in the end it came down down to someone else telling us it was happening and cabin allowance baggage rules?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Ho Ho Ho....This would be FUNNY, if it wasn't so serious.....


From this morning's news...
The 'perp' was sending his BROTHER on a 'one way trip'!

But, apparently, he, the brother, it was reported, had NO IDEA and did not get his 'check in' baggage on the flight, because it was 'too heavy'...?

It seems that the brother then flew sans baggage.

The 'mentality' of these people is just mind blowing....if you'll pardon the pun....

Cheerrsss....

[extralite]

Bows to the flight services officer...apologies for the humour your highness

[AerialPerspective]

I like the idea that someone pitched in a previous post... spend the money on something else like... pilot mental health, cabin crew threat identification and management training, drug and bomb sniffer dogs... anything but the useless screening equipment at the doors.

Don't get me wrong, aviation security needs continuous improving and monitoring which is an idea I support, but creating screening for the sake of "we have to do it, why don't they?" is rubbish.

I only hope the government and its agencies have the foresight to know how ineffective door and gate screening could be if they yield to ALPA's whim-of-the-day... and I trust they will.
One thing that could be done before increasing screening is to introduce AAA and make it mandatory for domestic flights. Currently ONLY Qantas uses triple-A domestically, Virgin does not and it is a close run thing whether a bag travels without the pax or not. Not through carelessness but through a lack of systemic approach. It is impossible for a bag to travel with a pax having been offloaded on QF unless someone deliberately does it. These are things the public doesn't know when choosing an airline, such as who spends money on the right technology to keep them safe. In the instance of baggage reconciliation it's Qantas.

[Lookleft]

The real bad guys have military explosives training, a covert support network with excellent research capability, an effective security and communication system and plenty of money. You will not catch them with some ASIC card check or see them mouthing off about infidels in some Lakemba mosque. If they mount an operation, they will use cleanskins with all the documentation and security cards. One can only hope ASIO is disrupting their operations in secret.

From the ABC

Police will allege the IED had been built under instructions from a senior Islamic State (IS) controller in Syria and was to be planted in the luggage of a brother of one of the accused on the Etihad flight out of Sydney on July 15. Police said the brother was not aware of the plan.

Police described the IED as a "high-end military-grade explosive". However, that attempt was aborted, and a second plan was then hatched to create a "chemical dispersion device"...Police said the plot to detonate an IED on the Etihad flight was directed by a senior IS controller, who organised for components to be sent to Australia via international air cargo from Turkey.

Deputy Commissioner Phelan said the plot began in April when one of the accused was put in contact with the controller via his brother, who is a senior member of the terrorist group in Syria.

So Sunny with all your knowledge of terrorist modus operandi, were these people "real" terrorists or just the idiots the AFP catches who attend dodgy mosques and research and discuss their plans over phones and the internet.

[Fliegenmong]

So the guy who took the meat mincer bomb to the airport was the brother of one of the accused.....and he knew nothing of it? His Brother?
"Here take this meat mincer to Abu Dhabi...uncle Mohammed wants it" really?? And so he jets out....and the AFP tells us he's not connected? Not sure this would pass the Pub test?

[troppo]

So the guy who took the meat mincer bomb to the airport was the brother of one of the accused.....and he knew nothing of it? His Brother?
"Here take this meat mincer to Abu Dhabi...uncle Mohammed wants it" really?? And so he jets out....and the AFP tells us he's not connected? Not sure this would pass the Pub test?

Sounds like porkies :rolleyes:

[Less Hair]

The Lockerbie bomb was hidden in the hold baggage of the terrorist's pregnant girlfriend on board back then.

[Icarus2001]

So according to ABC news, the bomb plot came to light 11 days AFTER it was attempted to plant the bomb.

Mmmmmmm

[troppo]

So according to ABC news, the bomb plot came to light 11 days AFTER it was attempted to plant the bomb.

Mmmmmmm

Sounds like only two of the five eyes work. More interesting would be to know when the US/UK were first aware of it.

[FJ44]

... It is impossible for a bag to travel with a pax having been offloaded on QF unless someone deliberately does it....

...In the instance of baggage reconciliation it's Qantas.

Having travelled with QF Internationally and watched the aircraft takeoff with my bag on it as I stood in a line in the terminal and then getting my luggage back in Oz without it being opened I'm not so sure of QF's abilities. It was by no means deliberate on my part and they had time to off load the luggage should they have wished to do so.

[Icarus2001]

A little bit off a myth really. Bags get misplaced and left behind regularly and travel later without the passenger. Yes, it has happened to me and no the bag was not opened, probably scanned though, possibly on departure and arrival.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/brisbane-passengers-flown-back-from-bali-with-no-luggage/news-story/4386cffa80db4c77547786fbf0d379c3

[Oriana]

Here's a novel idea to reduce a terrorist threat: Don't vote for, or tolerate, our government colluding with imperialist American wars in middle eastern ****holes.

[Lookleft]

America and Australia had nothing to do with the civil war in Syria which has been going on for a while. It was only when ISIS established a caliphate and started beheading not only Westerners but Syrians and Iragis that the Government has sent DFP back in. The real problem is that murder and mayhem in the Middle East is not confined to a small geographical area. If you don't think the Americans should be involved in the current and future geo-political situations then you might get your wish as Trump turns the US into an impotent navel gazer.

[psycho joe]

Here's a novel idea to reduce a terrorist threat: Don't vote for, or tolerate, our government colluding with imperialist American wars in middle eastern ****holes.


When Mohammed started his terrorist cult in the seventh century and proceeded to hack the heads off unbelievers in medina, was that also because of America? America has become a convenient blanket excuse for western useful idiots who want to believe in the religion of peace.

[C441]

Having travelled with QF Internationally and watched the aircraft takeoff with my bag on it as I stood in a line in the terminal and then getting my luggage back in Oz without it being opened I'm not so sure of QF's abilities.
If that were the case it would have been a direct breech of Qantas policy; a policy that is usually strictly enforced without exception, often much to the annoyance of impatient passengers.

[IsDon]

When Mohammed started his terrorist cult in the seventh century and proceeded to hack the heads off unbelievers in medina, was that also because of America? America has become a convenient blanket excuse for western useful idiots who want to believe in the religion of peace.

Precisely, well said.

When you follow a cult started by an egotistical, narcissistic, murdering, paedophile, and that nasty little sh1t is held up as the perfect example of how all muslims should conduct their lives, is it any wonder the vast majority of cowardly terrorist attacks come from this group of delluded numbskulls.

Not only that, but the blaming of the victims for causing the violence in the first place has been the modus operandi of muslims for centuries. If you can blame the victim for being attacked then you've one.

From some of the misguided comments here, it looks like some have already been conned.

Religion of peace, my hairy arse.

Difference between a cult and a religion? Numbers.

[maggot]

America and Australia had nothing to do with the civil war in Syria which has been going on for a while. It was only when ISIS established a caliphate and started beheading not only Westerners but Syrians and Iragis that the Government has sent DFP back in. The real problem is that murder and mayhem in the Middle East is not confined to a small geographical area. If you don't think the Americans should be involved in the current and future geo-political situations then you might get your wish as Trump turns the US into an impotent navel gazer.

...you do realise how ISIS came about, right? Quite tied up with the invasion that we participated in.

For this round at least.

[IsDon]

...you do realise how ISIS came about, right? Quite tied up with the invasion that we participated in.

For this round at least.

Would ISIS exist without violent Muslim dogma? No chance.

Would ISIS exist without America? In its identical state maybe not. But Islamic doctrine compels all Muslims to continue the struggle towards a world ruled by sharia law by whatever means available. So while ISIS might not exist in its present form, something else would. Using the same tried and true methodology of blaming somebody else while playing the role of victim.

[psycho joe]

...you do realise how ISIS came about, right? Quite tied up with the invasion that we participated in.

For this round at least.

Only to the extent that they were buoyed by popular uprising in the Middle East and a power vacuum. Whereas in the past the likes of Saddam would have put down such a threat to his power with matching levels of atrocity.

It's a bit like blaming the allies for the rise of Nazism, by removing the Wilhelm aristocracy (dictatorship) and instilling the Weimar Republic.

[maggot]

Would ISIS exist without violent Muslim dogma? No chance.

Would ISIS exist without America? In its identical state maybe not. But Islamic doctrine compels all Muslims to continue the struggle towards a world ruled by sharia law by whatever means available. So while ISIS might not exist in its present form, something else would. Using the same tried and true methodology of blaming somebody else while playing the role of victim.

Hence the last line of my post.

Im not contending anything except the invasion by us and the seppos was poorly handled and was the catalyst for isis. Major power vacuum, disbanded troops and cops well funded by the usual arabian suspects and.... t

[maggot]

Only to the extent that they were buoyed by popular uprising in the Middle East and a power vacuum. Whereas in the past the likes of Saddam would have put down such a threat to his power with matching levels of atrocity.

It's a bit like blaming the allies for the rise of Nazism, by removing the Wilhelm aristocracy (dictatorship) and instilling the Weimar Republic.

Read my above response. But I'll add that the collective punishment of the germans at the end of round 1 generated the instability that eventually led to round 2.

Notice the americans played differently with the Germans and japanese afterwards and look at em now :) quite the success story

[psycho joe]

Im not contending anything except the invasion by us and the seppos was poorly handled and was the catalyst for isis. Major power vacuum, disbanded troops and cops well funded by the usual arabian suspects and.... t

and... t?

Transformers!

[psycho joe]

Notice the americans played differently with the Germans and japanese afterwards and look at em now quite the success story

Not really. Germany and Japan were decimated to an unprecedented level by the end of ww2. Those countries turned around when the population gave up their idiological faith in their dictators and associated pseudo-religious political movements. They threw away their copies of Mein Kampf and realised that the emperor was just a mortal dork like everyone else. So too, only when Muslims put aside their instruction manuals on subjugation and murder will there be hope.

[dr dre]

Forget all this talk of whether or not western foreign policy or religion caused extremism.

It is highly hypocritical to claim the west is fighting radicals whilst supporting and selling billions of dollars worth of weapons to the most severe wahabbist regimes on the planet, prime being Saudi Arabia. Maybe stop supporting them and start backing the actual Muslims who are fighting the Islamists in the region (Iran and Syria).

Maybe then we can have a lesser threat to our workplaces (and after mandating full screening for all airside workers as well).

[psycho joe]

Forget all this talk of whether or not western foreign policy or religion caused extremism.

It is highly hypocritical to claim the west is fighting radicals whilst supporting and selling billions of dollars worth of weapons to the most severe wahabbist regimes on the planet, prime being Saudi Arabia. Maybe stop supporting them and start backing the actual Muslims who are fighting the Islamists in the region (Iran and Syria).

Maybe then we can have a lesser threat to our workplaces (and after mandating full screening for all airside workers as well).

Fighting American hypocracy with hypocracy. (The enemy of my enemy is my friend.) both Iran and Syria are dictatorships, Syria gasses their own people, Iran wants nukes to destroy the "great satan" (U.S) and they are both driven to destroy Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East.

If the west were serious about stopping terrorism we would severely curtail movement from Islamic countries,use racial profiling for security screening and deport the families of terrorists.

[dr dre]

Fighting American hypocracy with hypocracy. (The enemy of my enemy is my friend.) both Iran and Syria are dictatorships, Syria gasses their own people, Iran wants nukes to destroy the "great satan" (U.S) and they are both driven to destroy Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East.

If the west were serious about stopping terrorism we would severely curtail movement from Islamic countries,use racial profiling for security screening and deport the families of terrorists.

Sounds like a perfect neocon fantasy. Without turning this into a political discussion thread, there's plenty of doubt who was responsible for gas attacks in Syria (and is that different to western countries using agent orange and white phosphorus or even conventional bombs?), Iran's nuclear ambitions were never certain and have been curtailed via an agreement that most neocons hated anyway (and they get away with calling the Americans the great satan considering what US foreign policy towards Iran in the 20th century), and Israel the only democracy? Maybe but a lot of people don't like their actions towards the Palestinians, and that's certainly a debate that is beyond this thread.

[601]

The improvised homemade device - which was fashioned out of a meat mincer - was stopped from being taken on the flight when the passenger carrying it was told his bag was too heavy to be stored in the overhead cabin, The Sydney Morning Herald reported.

Appears that it did not even get to security check point.

[Icarus2001]

So our vast and expensive security service network prevented nothing.

They were thwarted by their own incompetence, an over weight bag.

Priceless.

[psycho joe]

Sounds like a perfect neocon fantasy. Without turning this into a political discussion thread, there's plenty of doubt who was responsible for gas attacks in Syria (and is that different to western countries using agent orange and white phosphorus or even conventional bombs?), Iran's nuclear ambitions were never certain and have been curtailed via an agreement that most neocons hated anyway (and they get away with calling the Americans the great satan considering what US foreign policy towards Iran in the 20th century), and Israel the only democracy? Maybe but a lot of people don't like their actions towards the Palestinians, and that's certainly a debate that is beyond this thread.

No fantasy.

Assad has form on using chlorine gas on his own people in the past and stands to gain most by continuing that policy, it quacks like a duck. This is different to conventional weapons in so far as it is specifically outlawed. The mode of death is from inland drowning caused by severe blistering of the lungs and often causes blindness to those unfortunate enough to survive. This is entirely different to agent orange, as agent orange was a defoliant. Noone tries to commit a genocide with weed killer.

Not sure what you're specifically referring to in regard to US foreign policy toward Iran, other than the fact that the U.K. and the US backed the Shah who was modernising the Iranian economy, he was hated by the hard liners for instilling western liberal values including women's freedom. There are pictures taken after the removal of the Shah showing women protesting in the streets against being forced to cover themselves in public, you don't see that anymore. The Iranian dictatorship hates western values as they are antithetical to Muslim values. The US is viewed as an easy target as an example of a country espousing these western values.

And Israel. Palestine was Israeli long before Islam even existed. Iran and other Muslim states hate Israel because the Koran specifically singles out Jews for destruction. Mohammed demands the beheading of Jews in retaliation for Jewish scholars refusing to recognise him as a prophet in the seventh century. Everything else is just a means to an end, a justification for that destruction.

[Sunfish]

lookleft: "real terrorists?" not really. a bomb in a meat mincer in carry on baggage that was too heavy?? Where is the alleged IED now? What was the explosive? C4? TNT? how was that going to get through security? Two of the four arrested are released. A hydrogen sulphide bomb? now that is school chemistry lab stuff. couldn't deliver an IED, how were they going to distribute h2s effectively?

...And they were caught after a heads up from the british police who were monitoring their contact, not by us. sounds like keystone cops chasing abbott and costello.

what worries me as i said, are the smart guys with military training who use covert communications (not the internet) are well resourced and well trained in remainig undetected. if this pair were like that they would not have been taken alive and would have tried to take plenty of us with them. as far as i can tell Australian terrorism has been inexperienced home grown nutters and self radicalisers, not the A team. let's hope that it stays that way.

[YPJT]

So our vast and expensive security service network prevented nothing.

They were thwarted by their own incompetence, an over weight bag.

Priceless.

Well based on that scenario I guess we will never know how effective the screening process would have been as it wasn't tested.

[777Nine]

No fantasy.

Assad has form on using chlorine gas on his own people in the past and stands to gain most by continuing that policy, it quacks like a duck. This is different to conventional weapons in so far as it is specifically outlawed. The mode of death is from inland drowning caused by severe blistering of the lungs and often causes blindness to those unfortunate enough to survive. This is entirely different to agent orange, as agent orange was a defoliant. Noone tries to commit a genocide with weed killer.

Not sure what you're specifically referring to in regard to US foreign policy toward Iran, other than the fact that the U.K. and the US backed the Shah who was modernising the Iranian economy, he was hated by the hard liners for instilling western liberal values including women's freedom. There are pictures taken after the removal of the Shah showing women protesting in the streets against being forced to cover themselves in public, you don't see that anymore. The Iranian dictatorship hates western values as they are antithetical to Muslim values. The US is viewed as an easy target as an example of a country espousing these western values.

And Israel. Palestine was Israeli long before Islam even existed. Iran and other Muslim states hate Israel because the Koran specifically singles out Jews for destruction. Mohammed demands the beheading of Jews in retaliation for Jewish scholars refusing to recognise him as a prophet in the seventh century. Everything else is just a means to an end, a justification for that destruction.

I think before you jump to conclusions about Iran and backing the Shah, you should do some research and understand how Khomeini came to power and what the 'Anglo-Persian' oil company was all about.

Anyway what is happening in the Middle East is no different than what has happened throughout history. When the hell has it even been a stable region?

[AerialPerspective]

Not really. Germany and Japan were decimated to an unprecedented level by the end of ww2. Those countries turned around when the population gave up their idiological faith in their dictators and associated pseudo-religious political movements. They threw away their copies of Mein Kampf and realised that the emperor was just a mortal dork like everyone else. So too, only when Muslims put aside their instruction manuals on subjugation and murder will there be hope.
Oh rubbish, Japan being an occupied country from one end to the other under virtual Marshall Law administered by the Allies and the Russians and Americans and British taking control of Germany perhaps had just a little to do with the Germans 'throwing away their copies of Mien Kampf... not to mention Allied Commanders insisting on tours of the concentration camps by ordinary Germans so they could see and smell up close what had been done in their name(s). The threat of Russia taking over Japan or part of it and having no sentimentality about likely murdering their royal family and being even less tolerant than the US might also have played a part in the Japanese running into the arms of the US as occupiers because the alternative was much less attractive.

It's a well known fact that after the Luftwaffe were ordered to start using the Nazi Salute toward the end of the war, they were standing next to their aircraft out of earshot of their leaders, raising their hands and shouting at each other "The sh-t in Germany is now piled this high" so I think the German people or a sizeable proportion were well and truly over Mr Hitler by the end of the war. I dare say the Japanese had enough of firebombing and being irradiated too.

The truth about the Middle East is that it was first stuffed up by the British with their damn colonial nonsense, then leaving and arbitrarily dividing the area up in to countries knowing nothing about the culture, religion and subtle differences and arrogantly insisting they were right, followed by both the US and Britain interfering in the region constantly, including the 1953 overthrow of the democratically elected and immensely popular government of Mossadeq, installing and supporting the murderous Shah which led Iran from a country that was very pro-US and pro-West to one that despises the West in many ways... the Persian people didn't just wake up one morning and decide to hate the US, these things take years of simmering under the surface.

Let's say Japan had invaded Australia in WWII and had got enough of a foothold and we had then been 'liberated' by the US who set up a new government and occupied the country for years, stole our resources and aribtrarily divided the country into different independent States - don't think for one minute we wouldn't have an undercurrent of hatred that would lash out at some point. Who is to say, we wouldn't have used passages in the Bible that referred to murdering all the people of the village if they not believe in god if we perceived their 'gods' to be heathen???

Top it off with the people of a region being treated or looked upon by the West for years as lesser peoples in the eyes of their colonising powers and the theft of priceless artifacts and you pretty much have the reason the region is how it is now.

Islam and the Middle East and Egypt were for centuries, centres of science and study. The numerals we use today and the concept of zero didn't exist until we adopted it from Arabic. A region like that didn't go rogue because it seemed like a good idea.

[psycho joe]

Oh rubbish, Japan being an occupied country from one end to the other under virtual Marshall Law administered by the Allies and the Russians and Americans and British taking control of Germany perhaps had just a little to do with the Germans 'throwing away their copies of Mien Kampf... not to mention Allied Commanders insisting on tours of the concentration camps by ordinary Germans so they could see and smell up close what had been done in their name(s).

It's a well known fact that after the Luftwaffe were ordered to start using the Nazi Salute toward the end of the war, they were standing next to their aircraft out of earshot of their leaders, raising their hands and shouting at each other "The sh-t in Germany is now piled this high" so I think the German people or a sizeable proportion were well and truly over Mr Hitler by the end of the war. I dare say the Japanese had enough of firebombing and being irradiated too.

The truth about the Middle East is that it was first stuffed up by the British with their damn colonial nonsense, then leaving and arbitrarily dividing the area up in to countries knowing nothing about the culture, religion and subtle differences and arrogantly insisting they were right, followed by both the US and Britain interfering in the region constantly, including the 1953 overthrow of the democratically elected and immensely popular government of Mossadeq, installing and supporting the murderous Shah which led Iran from a country that was very pro-US and pro-West to one that despises the West in many ways... the Persian people didn't just wake up one morning and decide to hate the US, these things take years of simmering under the surface.

Let's say Japan had invaded Australia in WWII and had got enough of a foothold and we had then been 'liberated' by the US who set up a new government and occupied the country for years, stole our resources and aribtrarily divided the country into different independent States - don't think for one minute we wouldn't have an undercurrent of hatred that would lash out at some point. Who is to say, we wouldn't have used passages in the Bible that referred to murdering all the people of the village if they not believe in god if we perceived their 'gods' to be heathen???

Top it off with the people of a region being treated or looked upon by the West for years as lesser peoples in the eyes of their colonising powers and the theft of priceless artifacts and you pretty much have the reason the region is how it is now.

Islam and the Middle East and Egypt were for centuries, centres of science and study. The numerals we use today and the concept of zero didn't exist until we adopted it from Arabic. A region like that didn't go rogue because it seemed like a good idea.

My post was in response to being told that Germans became friendly after ww2 due to less agregious war reparations than after ww1. I disagreed with that premise which I think you've confirmed, but have to admit I didn't bother reading all of your mishmashed rant.

[psycho joe]

I think before you jump to conclusions about Iran and backing the Shah, you should do some research and understand how Khomeini came to power and what the 'Anglo-Persian' oil company was all about.

Anyway what is happening in the Middle East is no different than what has happened throughout history. When the hell has it even been a stable region?

You miss my point, which is twofold,

Firstly I think its a bad idea to back the dictatorships of Iran and Syria as though they are the good guys, they aren't. It's a case of scumbags fighting scumbags. A case of dictators who gained their position through bloody violence fighting against rebels who wish to gain power through bloody violence. It's a failed philosophy and in the end they all hate us as the Koran commands them to do.

Secondly it's fallacious to think that on the human timeline, something that we the west may have done to offend Islam ten minutes ago has caused their angst toward us. The Koran goes to great detail in outlining which body parts should be removed from what specific group and how they should die. Jews, Christians, other beliefs, atheists and apostates, roll up roll up everyone gets a mention as Mohammed exhorts true believers to kill. These texts predate America by a thousand years, and on the question of Israel the Koran takes Muslim hate toward Jews back to the time of Abraham, which predates modern Israel by several thousand years. America and Israel are just an excuse to perpetuate murder.

[maggot]

My post was in response to being told that Germans became friendly after ww2 due to less agregious war reparations than after ww1. I disagreed with that premise which I think you've confirmed, but have to admit I didn't bother reading all of your mishmashed rant.

You may have misinterpreted me then.

[Sunfish]

Unfortunately Psycho Joe, history is against you. The Ottoman Empire lasted a long time and like the Persians, tolerated jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, alawites, Copts, etc. alike.

You have no understanding whatsoever about Islam, only what you obviously read on right wing hate websites.

Take Indonesia for example, the largest Muslim nation in the world. Do you see them beheading anyone? Can you buy a beer in Medan, Bali, Jakarta? Are there women driving cars? Wearing bikinis? In politics? Seen the Christian missionaries in Sulawesi?

Islam is not a single religion with a Pope. it is multi confessional, there are only very loose 'authorities" (self appointed) who carry little sway outside their communities.

To put it another way, if you want to quote the Koran, then in the same breath you had better quote the Old Testament which has equally bloodcurdling commands in it.


To put it slightly more unkindly, take your hate speech BS and stick it where the sun don't shine.

[WingNut60]

Islam and the Middle East and Egypt were for centuries, centres of science and study......

Which makes one wonder about their calculation of the Hijra calendar and the continuing use of the moon as the basis for annual events.
Or, more specifically, the rejection of a calendar that is accepted by pretty much all "scientifically advanced" nations and religions.

[psycho joe]

Unfortunately Psycho Joe, history is against you. The Ottoman Empire lasted a long time and like the Persians, tolerated jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, alawites, Copts, etc. alike.

You have no understanding whatsoever about Islam, only what you obviously read on right wing hate websites.

Take Indonesia for example, the largest Muslim nation in the world. Do you see them beheading anyone? Can you buy a beer in Medan, Bali, Jakarta? Are there women driving cars? Wearing bikinis? In politics? Seen the Christian missionaries in Sulawesi?

Islam is not a single religion with a Pope. it is multi confessional, there are only very loose 'authorities" (self appointed) who carry little sway outside their communities.

To put it another way, if you want to quote the Koran, then in the same breath you had better quote the Old Testament which has equally bloodcurdling commands in it.


To put it slightly more unkindly, take your hate speech BS and stick it where the sun don't shine.

Thanks sunfish. I've studied the Koran and the life of Mohammed at length and going by your ad hominem posts it seems that I've forgotten more about the subject than you'll ever know. Don't confuse nominal Islam with the teachings of Mohammed.

Fortunately whilst your ignorance of history and tenants of Islam may make you feel warm and fuzzy, indeed you may well believe that the biggest existential threat to our civilisation is Judaism or the militant wing of the Salvation Army, or that every would be terrorist should hugged or that every actual muslim terrorist isn't really Muslim. Meanwhile here in reality whilst you're agog in your warm fuzzy delirium, blowing kisses to yourself in the mirror at how righteous you are, there are people working hard behind the scenes and quietly cutting through the pc bs in an effort to stop a mass breakout of Muslim peace.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

To put it another way, if you want to quote the Koran, then in the same breath you had better quote the Old Testament which has equally bloodcurdling commands in it.

One of the more fashionable apologies for militant Islamism - "Aha, but what about the Old Testament!?"

So which noteworthy elements of Christianity and Judaism are currently taking the various bloodcurdling/bat**** crazy commands in the Old Testament literally, and putting them into practice? Are there significant parts of the Christian population anxious to stone their neighbours to death for failing to prepare this week's burnt offerings correctly?

[WingNut60]

Ooooo, careful sunshine, or Sunfish.
Your list, below, is definitely seen through rose-coloured glasses.


Take Indonesia for example, the largest Muslim nation in the world. Do you see them beheading anyone? Can you buy a beer in Medan, Bali, Jakarta? Are there women driving cars? Wearing bikinis? In politics? Seen the Christian missionaries in Sulawesi?


For any one of the above I can give you 10 or 100 recent (and very scary) examples of where that tolerance is NOT exercised.

Religious secularity is enshrined in the Indonesian constitution. It is protected (ha ha) by law.
The undercurrent of intolerance however is much stronger and becoming more so, year by year.

As for Sulawesi, it encompasses two major regions of Christian majority, both of which are being whittled apart by the effects of state-funded resettlement programs and generous funding to the majority religion.
And who the heck says that the presence of proselytising missionaries in Sulawesi is an indication of tolerance?

I'll guarantee that you won't see any in Banten.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

And here I were, thinking that this was supposed to be an 'Aviation' site....

Back to the thread....??

:}

Now, I wonder where / how the 'magic carpet' story originated...??

All responses considered.

[WingNut60]

And here I were, thinking that this was supposed to be an 'Aviation' site....

Back to the thread....??

:}


It's unlikely that any thread on aviation terrorism will not eventually devolve towards religious extremism, specifically extreme Islam, or maybe just Islam in general.

It may be noteworthy that they seldom head towards Zen Buddhism or Inuit Shamanism.

As for the magic carpet legend, I seem to remember that it is somehow tied to the Isra al-Mi'raj night journey hadiths, an alternative or supplementary account that involves a carpet instead of Buraq (Bouraq).
See Griffo, there's your aviation content for you.

[Flying Binghi]

Few years back i got myself involved in an 'incident' involving an aircraft. It were after 9/11 so all Oz Police should have been islamic nutter aware...

Just exited aircraft when the PIC got himself in a near scuffle with a group of people approaching the aircraft possibly looking to damage aircraft. Not being fully aware of what were going on I got involved and became the centre of the belligerent groups attention. (Seems to be my lot in life)... Police eventually arrive and I then became the centre of Police attention. Apparently I were deemed to be an anti islamic racist by the belligerent groups leader who happened to be a Doctor and the Police officer were focused on that... possible damage to aircraft be damned.

Eventually somebody higher up the Police chain in command did the maths: Incident involving islamic nutter + Aircraft = :ooh: A worried looking Police officer got off his comms and then paid full attention to the 'Doctor'. I went on my way.....


The islamic nutters are only going to get bolder and more aggressive the more we give into them. And what do they want - 72 virgins and an eternal erection. Reads more like a fetish 'religion' dreamed up by a thirteen year old boy..:hmm:





.

[AerialPerspective]

My post was in response to being told that Germans became friendly after ww2 due to less agregious war reparations than after ww1. I disagreed with that premise which I think you've confirmed, but have to admit I didn't bother reading all of your mishmashed rant.
I love how when anyone takes the time to research something and comment on it on this site, someone else calls it a rant. Obviously a self appointed genius.

[Sunfish]

Wingnut:

Which makes one wonder about their calculation of the Hijra calendar and the continuing use of the moon as the basis for annual events.
Or, more specifically, the rejection of a calendar that is accepted by pretty much all "scientifically advanced" nations and religions.

Another totally wrong blithering idiot appears. Open your C of E book of common prayer at the back and you will find that the Christian religion uses phases of the moon to calculate the date of "moveable feasts" like Easter.

PsychoJoe:

Thanks sunfish. I've studied the Koran and the life of Mohammed at length and going by your ad hominem posts it seems that I've forgotten more about the subject than you'll ever know. Don't confuse nominal Islam with the teachings of Mohammed.

Fortunately whilst your ignorance of history and tenants of Islam may make you feel warm and fuzzy, indeed you may well believe that the biggest existential threat to our civilisation is Judaism or the militant wing of the Salvation Army, or that every would be terrorist should hugged or that every actual muslim terrorist isn't really Muslim. Meanwhile here in reality whilst you're agog in your warm fuzzy delirium, blowing kisses to yourself in the mirror at how righteous you are, there are people working hard behind the scenes and quietly cutting through the pc bs in an effort to stop a mass breakout of Muslim peace.

I don't care what you claim to have "studied". Most probably you looked at a few websites that pedal such BS. You obviously have no first hand knowledge of the culture, the language or the societies of islam which are at least as diverse as the different breeds of Christianity. There is no monolithic Islamic religion bent on world domination. To think otherwise is at best paranoia, at worst deliberate racist mischief making.

Islam, like Christianity, has the full spectrum from easy going people like most Indonesians to extremely rigid and unforgiving bastards like the Saudis.

I have seen some of the spectrum in Indonesia, Malaysia and Pakistan, and that includes everything from urbane millionaire businessmen to hill tribesmen who think all western women must be whores. I have also attended some very drunken parties at Eid as I expect one or two other pilots have.

To base national policy on the idea that "the muslims want to kill us all" is the height of folly.

Here is a request; please don't start cutting and pasting surahs from the websites you visit in an effort to recover your position.

[AerialPerspective]

Which makes one wonder about their calculation of the Hijra calendar and the continuing use of the moon as the basis for annual events.
Or, more specifically, the rejection of a calendar that is accepted by pretty much all "scientifically advanced" nations and religions.
Might have something to do with the fact it starts at the birth of a non-existent alleged deity modeled on Mithra and Horus with which they don't agree. BTW, the reason Easter moves each year is because it's based on the position of the moon.

If we were fully objective, human society has been going for about 12,000 years so by rights, the year should be 12,017. But unfortunately religion of one kind or another permeates everything so people can feel comfortable with their invisible friends.

It's just a pity the world hadn't moved on from all this piffle which seems to have earned for itself some privileged position that excludes it from virtually any criticism. One can criticize someone's football team, personal habits, family, friends but for some reason the element of people's lives that has caused so much death and misery through history marking it as something that should be banned like dangerous drugs but is instead given a shroud of special status.

One suspects this is why there's been a century of abuse before a Royal Commission because of this stupid special rule.

Having said that, one isn't more poisonous than the other. Every group has its demons. It's only 30 or 40 years since 'good Christian members' of the KKK were lynching and beating African Americans by the thousands in the US (no one called them Christian terrorists even though they put their christianity front and centre and used it to justify their actions). Not to mention the numerous terrorist groups operating in Europe in the 70s or the support of the fascists and the Nazis by the Vatican.

We all have very selective memories.

[WingNut60]

Another totally wrong blithering idiot appears. Open your C of E book of common prayer at the back and you will find that the Christian religion uses phases of the moon to calculate the date of "moveable feasts" like Easter.


I'll ignore the crass insults but will respond to your comments on moveable feasts.
The C of E moveable feasts are only moveable in the sense that they are moved against the Gregorian calendar to align with lunar phases.
Christmas will not end up in June in 20 years time.

Islamic feasts move (against the lunar phases) but also because the Hijri calendar is based on a calendar year of, lets say, 354 days.
You'd think those scholars might have noticed that.

Exchanging banter in the crew lounge or sundowners with the less-than-faithful is not necessarily going to give you an accurate insight into grass-roots Islam, in Indonesia, Malaysia or Pakistan.

[oicur12.again]

"Firstly I think its a bad idea to back the dictatorships of Iran and Syria as though they are the good guys, they aren't."

So when we sell arms and provide training to the House of Saud, are we backing "the good guys"?

What about Kuwait? Qatar?

The fighting over Syria has become absurd, western backed terrorist groups fighting western backed rebels fighting Russian backed terrorist groups fighting Russian backed rebels fighting each other and with each other. Throw in some sly involvement by Turkey, Jordan and Saudi Arabia and others.

But make no mistake, the west is providing just as much direct and indirect assistance to ISIS and other so called "terror groups" as other non friendly actors are.

The blowback from this is going to be . . . . . interesting!

But we are the "good guys", right?

[Flying Binghi]

Wingnut: .....You obviously have no first hand knowledge of the culture, the language or the societies of islam which are at least as diverse as the different breeds of Christianity. There is no monolithic Islamic religion bent on world domination. To think otherwise is at best paranoia, at worst deliberate racist mischief making...



"...deliberate racist mischief making..."

islam is not a 'race'. Try getting the basics correct first..:hmm:





.

[Flying Binghi]

. ...But make no mistake, the west is providing just as much direct and indirect assistance to ISIS and other so called "terror groups" as other non friendly actors are.

The blowback from this is going to be . . . . . interesting!

But we are the "good guys", right?

And who created the mess and why?

The investigation is on-going though it looks bad for the obama-clinton gang. Judicial Watch has several on-going lawsuits to uncover the background to events...

"...“These documents are jaw-dropping. No wonder we had to file more FOIA lawsuits and wait over two years for them. If the American people had known the truth – that Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and other top administration officials knew that the Benghazi attack was an al-Qaeda terrorist attack from the get-go – and yet lied and covered this fact up – Mitt Romney might very well be president. And why would the Obama administration continue to support the Muslim Brotherhood even after it knew it was tied to the Benghazi terrorist attack and to al Qaeda? These documents also point to connection between the collapse in Libya and the ISIS war – and confirm that the U.S. knew remarkable details about the transfer of arms from Benghazi to Syrian jihadists,” stated Tom Fitton, Judicial Watch president. “These documents show that the Benghazi cover-up has continued for years and is only unraveling through our independent lawsuits. The Benghazi scandal just got a whole lot worse for Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton.”..."

JW: Obama Admin Knew About Benghazi Before It Happened (http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/judicial-watch-defense-state-department-documents-reveal-obama-administration-knew-that-al-qaeda-terrorists-had-planned-benghazi-attack-10-days-in-advance/)






.

[psycho joe]

"Firstly I think its a bad idea to back the dictatorships of Iran and Syria as though they are the good guys, they aren't."

So when we sell arms and provide training to the House of Saud, are we backing "the good guys"?

What about Kuwait? Qatar?

The fighting over Syria has become absurd, western backed terrorist groups fighting western backed rebels fighting Russian backed terrorist groups fighting Russian backed rebels fighting each other and with each other. Throw in some sly involvement by Turkey, Jordan and Saudi Arabia and others.

But make no mistake, the west is providing just as much direct and indirect assistance to ISIS and other so called "terror groups" as other non friendly actors are.

The blowback from this is going to be . . . . . interesting!

But we are the "good guys", right?

That doesn't follow. I didn't mention any of hose countries, and my comment on Iran and Syria was on the back of "American hypocrisy" (my words) and the idea that my enemy's enemy is my friend. So no I don't. But If you think that this justifies someone coming into my workplace and killing a few hundred people then we aren't on the same page. Once again, Islamic terrorism predates America.

[psycho joe]

Wingnut:



Another totally wrong blithering idiot appears. Open your C of E book of common prayer at the back and you will find that the Christian religion uses phases of the moon to calculate the date of "moveable feasts" like Easter.

PsychoJoe:



I don't care what you claim to have "studied". Most probably you looked at a few websites that pedal such BS. You obviously have no first hand knowledge of the culture, the language or the societies of islam which are at least as diverse as the different breeds of Christianity. There is no monolithic Islamic religion bent on world domination. To think otherwise is at best paranoia, at worst deliberate racist mischief making.

Islam, like Christianity, has the full spectrum from easy going people like most Indonesians to extremely rigid and unforgiving bastards like the Saudis.

I have seen some of the spectrum in Indonesia, Malaysia and Pakistan, and that includes everything from urbane millionaire businessmen to hill tribesmen who think all western women must be whores. I have also attended some very drunken parties at Eid as I expect one or two other pilots have.

To base national policy on the idea that "the muslims want to kill us all" is the height of folly.

Here is a request; please don't start cutting and pasting surahs from the websites you visit in an effort to recover your position.

Come on sunfish you're better than this. Your ad hominem rants do nothing do defend Islam, if that is in fact your aim, but rather come across like a drunk screaming at a lamp post. The lamp post couldn't give a sh$t but the viewing public get a spectacle.

[Sunfish]

Psycho, I'm not "defending islam" I'm simply pointing out that your arguments are incredible. You give yourself too much credit by suggesting there is any content in your posts that constitutes an attack requiring rebuttal.

[psycho joe]

Psycho, I'm not "defending islam" I'm simply pointing out that your arguments are incredible. You give yourself too much credit by suggesting there is any content in your posts that constitutes an attack requiring rebuttal.

Yeah, that's pretty much three for three. What I've written can be backed by reference to historical text or the Koran itself. Your last three posts amount to no more than "I know you are you said you are so what am I".

I apologise for wasting yours and everyone else's time. I genuinely thought you might have had something intelligent to say.

[framer]

Well,....today when I went through security I had to take my iPad out of my flight bag and that was annoying.
Sunny, check your PM's.

[Flying Binghi]

...To base national policy on the idea that "the muslims want to kill us all" is the height of folly.....


Well, the Oz courts think islam is a threat and have now defined a 'policy'...

"...A NSW court last week banned construction of a synagogue at Bondi, to save locals from getting accidentally hurt if the Jews are shot or bombed..."

No Cookies | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/telling-jews-they-are-too-dangerous-as-neighbours/news-story/d708cc9f96fd5e57cc049ad074191275)

Bolt seems to be blaming the court and council for its decision though i think he's on the wrong track there. islam is a known threat and should be treated as such until such time as the threat is removed - you can hardly blame the courts and council for the problem. The real issue is why have we allowed into Australia the very people that will murder Australians..:hmm:







.

[NumptyAussie]

Which makes one wonder about their calculation of the Hijra calendar and the continuing use of the moon as the basis for annual events.
Or, more specifically, the rejection of a calendar that is accepted by pretty much all "scientifically advanced" nations and religions.

You mean like Easter?

[WingNut60]

You mean like Easter?

I already covered that in post #130
Try to keep up, will ya?

[Sunfish]

Psychojoe: What I've written can be backed by reference to historical text or the Koran itself.

As I thought, you just read a few internet hate websites and formed your opinion. You don't know any muslims and have never been to a muslim country.

On that basis you have condemned 1.2 billion people. Furthermore you have slandered the thousands of western airline pilots who work in the Middle East, the businesses who trade with muslim countries (including Airlines Etihad, Emirates and Qatar) and those of us who have visited those places. We must all be out of our minds according to you, because they all want to slaughter us.

Flying Binghi: The real issue is why have we allowed into Australia the very people that will murder Australians..


Up to a point you are right. We brought a lot of this crap on ourselves through misguided "responsibility to protect" social justice theory as well as participating in stupid unwinnable wars that are none of our business. We are now going to get another headache when the Australian jihadists that fought for ISIS in Syria try to come home.

[AerialPerspective]

Well, the Oz courts think islam is a threat and have now defined a 'policy'...

"...A NSW court last week banned construction of a synagogue at Bondi, to save locals from getting accidentally hurt if the Jews are shot or bombed..."

No Cookies | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/telling-jews-they-are-too-dangerous-as-neighbours/news-story/d708cc9f96fd5e57cc049ad074191275)

Bolt seems to be blaming the court and council for its decision though i think he's on the wrong track there. islam is a known threat and should be treated as such until such time as the threat is removed - you can hardly blame the courts and council for the problem. The real issue is why have we allowed into Australia the very people that will murder Australians..:hmm:







.
The Herald-Sun???

Like the Telegraph in Sydney I wouldn't take any notice of a newspaper that among other things in the past has featured Australian politicians of both major parties dressed as Nazis. Hardly the leading edge of un-biased journalism.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Slight 'drift'....
The 'Pagan' origins of Easter.....

Origin of Easter: From pagan festivals and Christianity to bunnies and chocolate eggs - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-15/the-origins-of-easter-from-pagan-roots-to-chocolate-eggs/8440134)

Not to mention allah, the moon god....and the earth is flat....and the sun descends into a muddy lake at night....and....

:ugh:

[WingNut60]

..... I wouldn't take any notice of a newspaper that among other things in the past has featured Australian politicians of both major parties dressed as Nazis. Hardly the leading edge of un-biased journalism.

Or features columns by Andrew Bolt.
Alan Jones for the the hard-of-hearing.

[joe crazyhorse]

I agree entirely with starfish. If there are 1.2 billion people in the world who follow the teachings of Islam and say around 5% are said to be radicalised, then that's only around 60 million people in the world who would be a threat.

I also agree that the only logical defence against any sort of scrutiny is to make claims of ignorance. There's just no way that it could be conceivable that someone would know a subject and be critical. Of course this is a bit of a problem when it comes to critical reports, which by their very nature must be null and void.

It's also entirely logical that on a pilots forum noone here would have ever travelled.

[AerialPerspective]

Am I the only one looking at the ongoing reporting of this 'foiled plot' and the fact that they just let the guy out on bail that this was possibly a beat up for political reasons???

Even allowing for the revolving door bail system in most States - how can they possible make this into a federal case (no pun intended) and let the guy out on bail - must be a r e a l l y string case... NOT.

In the same category as "We've foiled 13 terror plots" - really, when and how??? "We don't comment on operational matters" - how politically convenient (read, we want to scare you but if we give you details you'll realise it's not true or we're including things like someone setting fire to a rubbish bin).

All we get from AFP or NSWPS is "we are continuing our investigations".

The intelligence coming from "an overseas intelligence agency tipping us off" makes me hope it wasn't the same agency that assured everyone that Saddam Hussein definitely had WMD.

[Flying Binghi]

Suggested reading - mein kamph and the koran. Of note, mein kamph is the less hate filled of the two books...

Psychojoe:

As I thought, you just read a few internet hate websites and formed your opinion. You don't know any muslims and have never been to a muslim country.

On that basis you have condemned 1.2 billion people. Furthermore you have slandered the thousands of western airline pilots who work in the Middle East, the businesses who trade with muslim countries (including Airlines Etihad, Emirates and Qatar) and those of us who have visited those places. We must all be out of our minds according to you, because they all want to slaughter us.

Flying Binghi:

Up to a point you are right. We brought a lot of this crap on ourselves through misguided "responsibility to protect" social justice theory as well as participating in stupid unwinnable wars that are none of our business. We are now going to get another headache when the Australian jihadists that fought for ISIS in Syria try to come home.

"...condemned 1.2 billion people..."

Are you suggesting that those 1.2 billion all believe that 72 virgins and an eternal erection await the male suicide bombers when they die? Do you think they believe most of the other fairy tales in the koran? ...Doubtful. The trouble is, unlike other 'faiths', it is very hard to escape from islam - it is a death sentence.
The problem here in Australia we are not giving safe haven to people who try to leave those islamic shyteHoles and immigrate to Oz. We allow the islamic hate 'faith' to follow them here.


"...We are now going to get another headache when..."

Try and keep up, the islamic troubles in Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Philippines have been building for many years and will impact Oz in a big way.





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[TBM-Legend]

Just back from Indonesia on biz. My Euro colleague who has been resident there for nearly 30 years told me that they view Australia as a great unoccupied land. 265M of them...and they see us as nirvana given the over-population in places like Java etc. Collectively they don't like us and can see this as a new Muslim Caliphate. By the way they don't put timelines on their activities like we do..

Wake up Australia.

[zanthrus]

Nuke the F$#kers from orbit! Allah Akbar...oh its a trap. aaarrgghhhh!

[cbradio]

No, "they" don't TBM. Your Euro mate is full of it.