The Truth

[mngmt mole]

Gentlemen. CX is currently trying to force through a 'negotiation', that they anticipate will lock in further reductions to the employment package that they have with their aircrew. Don't fall for their pathetic, worn and manipulative stories. Have a read of the following article, and ask yourself if you think it likely that CX won't be suffering from the same problem very soon. That is why they are desperate to get concessions now: because quite soon they will be begging for pilots. Reject any concessionary contract. Don't be fearful of their threats. We have the upper hand and their days of compromising our careers are coming to an end.

The U.S. has a staggering pilot shortage - Jul. 27, 2017 (http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/27/news/companies/pilot-shortage-figures/index.html)

[catpac]

You dreamin' ...
This airline and its management will never give in to its Pilots. They have made an offer, we rejected it, that's it. We ain't getting anything more anytime soon, as we have been told by RH.
They would rather shrink CX or even let it go under and expand KA and air HK to make their point.
When in their 70+ year history has CX management negotiated with its pilots and offered more as a result of an offer being rejected?? I know what you're thinking, wheels are falling off, pilots are leaving, they're under pressure, etc... Bull****, they are laughing at us and our stupidity. To support this claim, nobody is leaving, the wheels aren't falling off, the aircraft are crewed, thousands are lining up at the door to join, loads are pretty good, cargo is doing well, there is no need to improve anything as far as pilots go. Yield and fuel hedge will pass, profits are coming, but not for us.
Enjoy your contract compliance to infinity and consider yourself lucky if you don't lose your housing soon! Enjoy 👍

[Starbear]

You dreamin' ...
This airline and its management will never give in to its Pilots. They have made an offer, we rejected it, that's it. We ain't getting anything more anytime soon, as we have been told by RH.
They would rather shrink CX or even let it go under and expand KA and air HK to make their point.
When in their 70+ year history has CX management negotiated with its pilots and offered more as a result of an offer being rejected?? I know what you're thinking, wheels are falling off, pilots are leaving, they're under pressure, etc... Bull****, they are laughing at us and our stupidity. To support this claim, nobody is leaving, the wheels aren't falling off, the aircraft are crewed, thousands are lining up at the door to join, loads are pretty good, cargo is doing well, there is no need to improve anything as far as pilots go. Yield and fuel hedge will pass, profits are coming, but not for us.
Enjoy your contract compliance to infinity and consider yourself lucky if you don't loose your housing soon! Enjoy 👍

Ah you were doing so well until you got too loose with your lose.

[catpac]

Mistake noted and subsequently corrected. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Sqwak7700]

The Air Force is willing to pony up to $455,000 to keep its pilots.

Fahck me, where do I sign up?

https://youtu.be/OmhGrJJjI7E

[Ipad]

Mgmt mole. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing expecting a different result. There was only only time in the last 20 years when we signed deals and got some gains. Not stunning deals but acceptable. Do you know when that was and why we got these deals?

[Dragon69]

Amazing how as we approach September, all the scaredy cats coming out of the trash bins.

Do you guys need a reminder on how the company, only last year, capitulated to the FAU after a threat of a strike. No they didn't shrink the airline to prove a point. They didn't let ego get in the way of reality. They simply met the FAU's demands. Grow some balls FFS.

[Strewth]

Getting serious, 18000 retirements, US mainlines next 3yrs (http://m.atwonline.com/opinions/analysis-regional-airline-ceo-says-pilot-shortage-getting-serious) ATW 032417

United States E-3 visa (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-3_visa) Alternative for bushwingers.

[744drv]

September keeps being mentioned as a possible end to AARAPA ..... this is nonsense. Regardless of what repercussions this may have, read the agreement. Section 7 makes it VERY clear that whether the end of the agreement period is up or not, there must be 3 months notice before the agreement is no longer upheld. AARAPA remains in force until the end of October even if they give us notice this afternoon!

[GICASI2]

Fahck me, where do I sign up?

https://youtu.be/OmhGrJJjI7E

Joining the (any) military necessitates exceeding a minimum standard. Progressing in the military (and not being chopped) requires continual improvement as you are continuously subjected to hard-nosed supervision. It is a meritocracy - something that the civilian world does not recognise. The achievement of a licence is the pinnacle of the civilian career. The majority of you would not have made it through the door.

[Oasis]

Joining the (any) military necessitates exceeding a minimum standard. Progressing in the military (and not being chopped) requires continual improvement as you are continuously subjected to hard-nosed supervision. It is a meritocracy - something that the civilian world does not recognise. The achievement of a licence is the pinnacle of the civilian career. The majority of you would not have made it through the door.

In the civilian world, a licence is a licence to learn, where it really starts.
I assume you must be military, you should really have a better understanding of those you fly with.

To Catpac; grow a pair, mate.

[Xwindldg]

The Top Gun super elite you speak of still fail commands here like the rest of the great unwashed.

[GICASI2]

The Top Gun super elite you speak of still fail commands here like the rest of the great unwashed.

No, just a top gun super elite who is totally fed up with you lot of whiners! And as a wind up, it seems to have hit the spot

[catpac]

Hi Curtain Rod,

Thanks for your questions, but I am a little confused? You say the wheels have fallen off already, people are leaving, and they're under pressure. Sorry but I think you are wrong. You help prove my point, you say that we are growing at the same time. Exactly! Which one is it, the wheels have fallen off and they're under pressure, or are we growing? You tell me...

If the management were so concerned about us as a union, CC and TB, they could have and would have fixed that many moons ago with a stroke of a pen in a matter of a few hours. But they haven't done that, because they don't need to. Remember, you mentioned we are still growing, and we have even saved them millions of dollars by not accepting the offer 12 months ago. High fives everywhere on the 9th floor.

You seem adamant we have them by the balls. They're under pressure, people are leaving and the wheels have fallen off. They'll be forced to give us an improved offer to entice us out of CC and TB. To top it off, huge pilot shortage coming up in the USA, that alone would be a major concern for Swire management.

Management on the other hand keep telling us we need to cut costs and increase productivity.

One contradicts the other? Who is right? Let's see it, let's see RH's bluff...😎

[Flex88]

Hear, hear. Show some respect, tool doesn't begin to do Biggus justice, he's sits on the end of a sharp stick, the tip of the spear, sinews taut, readied as a finely tuned weapon of war with a pension, that and he'll be our boss when we fight the Martians, wanna latte' Dickus.

Please tell me your not talking about that Wannabe that has been front and centre on the CX IntraCx desktop this last week or so. That management elf can't even handle the go-cart he's "attempting" to drive not to mention his current position "or" the one he's now drooling about !! Maybe one day if he gets the position he aspires to (yes the one he had his choppers fixed for + a huge new wardrobe) he just might come out and actually say/do something... It's been many many years.:sad:

That said, don't hold your breath...

[BlunderBus]

It's interesting reading your posts rubbishing each other's opinions grammar and spelling.. why don't you unite for a change? Show the company a solid front with a common aim? Give the young troops a break and stop bitching !! You're achieving nothing except giving the reading public a very clear view of how selfish and narrow minded Pilots can be.

[Flex88]

It's interesting reading your posts rubbishing each other's opinions grammar and spelling.. why don't you unite for a change? Show the company a solid front with a common aim? Give the young troops a break and stop bitching !! You're achieving nothing except giving the reading public a very clear view of how selfish and narrow minded Pilots can be.

BlunderBus... How very opinionated of YOU.. If you think back to more or less every fu***** message on this board since day one it's entirely evident we are all on the same page with a unified message and a "common aim"
That being:

Can we please please get some Good Fu***** Management

It's been 23 years of assholes and Financial blunders where "WE" pay the price.

[Trafalgar]

Spot-on-the-money Flex.

[Liam Gallagher]

Spot on Curtain Rod. It's a money go-round that we mustn't buy a ticket to ride on. However, I fear that we will because the weaker amongst us will fear the "consequences" if we don't. The old "big bad bogey man under the bed will get us" routine.

If they really want to save money, open the bases. But it seems they want us to pay for bases as well. If anyone fears the "consequences" they only need to remind themselves of that fact.

At a time when the Company is making the first Cathay pilot redundant, it is surely time for all the Unions to put on their big boy pants and tell the bogey man to Foxtrot Oscar and open the bases. We don't need to be paying HPE consultants and Forensics Accountants to figure this out.... we know how the money goround works as we have "experienced" the ride before.

[Average Fool]

They will never take the pilot group seriously until you show some solidarity.

Would you be frightened of a few letters and employees working exactly how both parties agreed?

Start picketing!! If your army won't march they certainly won't fight.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Curtain and Liam,

interesting theory. But how do you know it is true and not just a myth?

Can you give me numbers?

Any specific example?

Can you name one specific case where CX overpaid in order to benefit Swire?

Average Fool,

you are asking for more solidarity, after years in CC and training ban.

What specifically do you have in mind?
I know what you want to achieve, I know what you think the company should do, that is not my question.

I am asking you: how do you want to achieve your goals? Can you give me feasible and realistic examples of actions you would want to see? What is it that you are asking for? Where do you want your "army" marching to?

[oriental flyer]

STW ,

You are so obviously management or management wanabee , so whilst I could respond to your posts I just couldn't be bothered .
I'm all for different opinions but you just keep beating the management drum

[Liam Gallagher]

Fair question STW,

I'll answer your question with another question, do you think the Swire owned HAECO competitively tenders for Cathay Dragon's business?

As for solid numbers, it's relatively easy to hide these transactions. However, one they can't hide is the service fee to John Swire & Sons Ltd which can be seen in the Annual Report (para 27 page 91). It's set at reimbursement of costs plus 2.5% of profits. So in a year the Swire Managers lost us $8bn in Fuel Hedging and ensured a loss, they didn't take their 2.5%. They did however take $241m in reimbursed costs. Looking at the accounts, it seems Anna Thompson's and the other Swire Directors salaries are paid by Cathay, so this looks like "costs" additional to salaries. These are of course in addition to dividends payable to JSSS.

So, if the Company wants to save $500m per year, I can see an easy way to save $241m.... Job half done.

All these concessions you want us to give, JSSS takes 2.5% out of every dollar conceded. Doesn't that make interested based bargaining, rather interesting?

[Average Fool]

What specifically do you have in mind?
I know what you want to achieve, I know what you think the company should do, that is not my question.

I am asking you: how do you want to achieve your goals? Can you give me feasible and realistic examples of actions you would want to see? What is it that you are asking for? Where do you want your "army" marching to?


Formal picketing with the largest amount possible.

In HK, this is a very profound statement. NTM CX absolutely hates bad press.

If I remember correctly, the FAU conducted something like that and was very effective.

I certainly would not hurt.

I hope you guys the best.

I've voted with my feet.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Liam,
the reimbursement is a reimbursement, it is a zero sum game. The 2.5% of profits are interesting, this could indeed be a way for Swire to squeeze money out of Cathay. But it's 2.5% of profits only, so as you said correctly none has been deducted in 2016. Plus a 2.5 % profit share would actually be an incentive for Swire to increase profits at Cathay, not the other way round, don't you agree? It is a contradictory argument in my opinion.

I do not know the role of Haeco, that was my question for you!

Oriental,

if I were management I would not need to ask, I would know the answer. I think you are trying to distract, you just don't have an answer to my question.

Average,

I do not believe that you will ever see a pilot group forming a picket in front of Cathay City, this is just not a realistic proposition, but more importantly I am absolutely certain no customer would care even if there would be one. Industrial conflicts are everywhere. Think about your own consumer habits. Did you ever care about the salary of employees when out shopping, buying a product, booking a flight?

[Average Fool]

I think it would do more to show the company, not the traveling public.

Unfortunately I think you're correct in thinking any more than a handful would show.

[Xwindldg]

I'm a bit worried after watching the video from the focus night about HPE. Supposedly our main goal is to change the culture of how we deal with the company. I don't think the company gives a f### about how we feel in that regard, they want cold hard cost cuts.

[Sam Ting Wong]

THEN ask yourself if you should be asked to accept giving away anything more to "help" them recover from their management style, most notably, fuel hedging decisions.

And remember that just because you bought something for $1000 and some guy across the street then bought the same thing later for $500 does NOT mean that you have lost $500. Try claiming that on your taxes and see what they say. But in HK, for some reason, the company's employees and the IRD let the company claim a "loss" because they missed the sale on fuel by buying too much too early. Now what if another airline paid less for an A350 this week? Or next month? Or a light bulb? Or a pilot?[/QUOTE]


Rod, I think you misunderstood the concept of fuel hedging. Cathay agreed to buy fuel at a certain price for a period of years. This price is the cost of fuel, it is not the comparison to the actual fuel price that causes the lost, it is the high price Cathay has actually to pay.

I totally agree with you regarding the unjustice this terrible decision is now creating.

I disagree with you regarding the general decline of our COS and the root causes. Apart from hedging, the real reason for the decline is in my opinion a reflection of the industry as a whole. The market price for pilots has been in decline everywhere, not only at Cathay. I also disagree with you concerning the actual B package. I think it is a fair package, and we should concentrate our forces keeping it, not risking it all by having unrealistic demands.

[BlunderBus]

Just shoot me 🙄

[Average Fool]

You may not like STWs opinion but I'd bet it's representative of the majority.

Unfortunately

[Shep69]

You may not like STWs opinion but I'd bet it's representative of the majority.

Unfortunately

You know, there's probably a good bit of truth in that--at least from a 'results' standpoint.

How else has the place gotten to where it is today ?

But the sword of despotic management cuts in many directions and certainly doesn't result in a particularly efficient operation.

And it bespeaks volumes toward managing ones' 'career' path.

[Sam Ting Wong]

I think it is deeply unfair to blame my side for the current situation.

You guys started this war, I did not and strongly opposed it from the start.

You guys rejected the offer, you guys keep following unrealistic goals like B scale for everybody or double digit pay rises.

I am not the majority.

Unfortunately.

[Freehills]

Meanwhile HKA will start flying to LAX in December, daily in January. More pressure on Cathay

[spleener]

[QUOTE=Sam Ting Wong;9849436]I think it is deeply unfair to blame my side ]

STW; unlike some here, I value your opinion. and truly don't think of you as being "another side". While my longer - ex A scale - memory of the relationship with the Company might cause me to pause and process a different viewpoint to yourself - I don't believe it is wise to divide ourselves.

I'm sure you get my drift :ok:

[Sam Ting Wong]

Agreed. Just saying I was in the loser camp at every single AOA election of the last 2 years or so.

[cxorcist]

Meanwhile HKA will start flying to LAX in December, daily in January. More pressure on Cathay

That's in addition to AA already in the market, and to DFW too. "Lost opportunities" I think Rhodent used to call them.