Pan Am Sikorsky building crash NYC, 1977

[Tickle]

Just came across this on the web:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/helicopter-flips-park-avenue-1977-article-1.2214161

It happened in 1977 and was said to be a tyre burst which then caused a sequence which killed 5 people and injured another 8.

I am wondering how often has a tyre burst occurred after landing, and have they caused this kind of result again? Did it impact on such operations in the future?

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2214146.1431026803!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_1200/dn03334.jpg

[JohnDixson]

This link may assist:

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR7709.pdf

It wasn't the tire.

[n5296s]

Gosh, I remember that. I'd just taken New York Airways the week previously, on my first ever trip to the New York area. My flights to/from London used JFK, and I was meeting a customer in New Jersey, and this seemed a lot simpler than trying to navigate my way across the city. It helped that it was included my Pan Am fare.

It was a bit of a shock when this happened about a week after I returned.

[MikeNYC]

Did it impact on such operations in the future?

Yes, in the sense that it hastened the end of the use of rooftop pads in NYC.

[Hot and Hi]

Yes, in the sense that it hastened the end of the use of rooftop pads in NYC.
Was this the only helicopter crash associated with the Pan Am building? Or was there another accident where the helicopter actually fell off the roof? From reading the accident report, this accident was neither caused nor influenced by the fact that it was a rooftop operation: The same sequence would have happened, if the gear had collapsed on a ground level pad.

In my mind I always had images of a helicopter falling off the roof, and then exploding at ground level, killing droves of 'innocent' bystanders on the streets of Manhattan.

The report understandly discusses whether - all things considered - hot boarding of pax should be avoided in future (but dismisses this suggestion). It is difficult to see though how this accident could reasonably have been used to ban rooftop operations.

[FH1100 Pilot]

The reason NYC stopped rooftop ops was because a woman down on the street two blocks away got killed by a piece of flying rotor blade. In a city as crowded as that, do you really need that kind of risk?

[mtoroshanga]

This link may assist:

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR7709.pdf

It wasn't the tire.

Well said John. The tire had nothing to with the accident. A tire failure would probably have resulted in a ground resonance situation. A mechanical failure of a component was the cause. I worked in Penzance up until my retirement and this incident was constantly on my mind mainly because one of our aircraft had achieved 140,000 landings!!!

[JohnDixson]

Mtoroshanga, some background re your observation on tire failure leading to a ground resonance situation. The typical mechanical stability ( engineering language for ground resonance ) testing involves various levels of tire servicing and strut servicing. The 61 model followed the S-58 model, which had its share of ground resonance history, and which led to a landing gear reconfiguration ( talking about the 58 gear ) as one corrective action.

[Outwest]

An interesting follow-on was Court Helicopters cut the wreck up into pieces small enough to go down the elevator and rebuilt it in Capetown......at least that is what I was told by a soutpiel ;-)

[Tickle]

Thanks for the replies and discussion, everyone.

[Demented]

That "Soutie" was quite correct. Rebuilt in Cape Town and used offshore. Sold to Namibia Sea Fisheries in the mid 90's. Operated out of Arandis (near Swakopmund) for awhile. Flew a good number of hours in her, nice machine. Wonder where she is now?

[Self loading bear]

That "Soutie" was quite correct. Rebuilt in Cape Town and used offshore. Sold to Namibia Sea Fisheries in the mid 90's. Operated out of Arandis (near Swakopmund) for awhile. Flew a good number of hours in her, nice machine. Wonder where she is now?

Latest i could find on the net:
2007 Port Alberni Canada
Looking neat but without tail?
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/5986485

Cheers SLB

[oryxs]

An interesting follow-on was Court Helicopters cut the wreck up into pieces small enough to go down the elevator and rebuilt it in Capetown......at least that is what I was told by a soutpiel ;-)

True, but rebuilt in the USA. Knew one of the engineers that was involved in the rebuilt. Flew it a few years later when it was in Namibia.

Sikorsky S-61N - Namibia - Government | Aviation Photo #0006173 | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Namibia-Government/Sikorsky-S-61N/6173)

[Hot and Hi]

The reason NYC stopped rooftop ops was because a woman down on the street two blocks away got killed by a piece of flying rotor blade. In a city as crowded as that, do you really need that kind of risk?
I fully agree. But would then also suggest to ban the use of cars in any crowded city. Luckily so far it has never happened that a car hits a pedestrian, or has it? :E

[Carbon Bootprint]

I fully agree. But would then also suggest to ban the use of cars in any crowded city.
Haha, but the fact is some places are trying to do that, or at least make the option so expensive it's not that attractive. Ostensibly for other reasons, of course.

I flew some helo shuttles from southwest Houston to IAH back in the 80s oil boom. About 12 minutes, it sure beat the traffic (by road it would have normally have taken at least 60-90 minutes). No rooftop landings, though I think one may have been on the top of a parking garage in the Galleria area. Nowhere near as tall as the PanAm building, but great stuff. Nice memories of another era that seems to have all but disappeared.

[Cyclic Hotline]

A smaller but earlier accident in NY City with a rooftop helipad. https://www.britishpathe.com/video/new-york-copter-crashes/query/helicopter+crash

[Max Skylon]

Page 8 of the NTSB report, paragraph 1.15, makes reference to a two-panel sliding cockpit door. I've not come across any S61 with a cockpit door. Was this factory fitted or an operator modification ?

[JohnDixson]

Max, the writer was probably referring to the two piece split door right behind the cockpit.

[Max Skylon]

Max, the writer was probably referring to the two piece split door right behind the cockpit.

Thanks for the reply John, however, the NTSB report section 1.15 (page 8) spcifically uses the term 'cockpit door' and details the captain's inability to enter the cabin from the cockpit. Also the attached photograph of N619PA, taken prior to the accident, shows the aircraft has an airstair door just aft of the cockpit forward of the right landing gear.

http://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/9/9/7/1679799-v40-15.jpg

[JohnDixson]

I reread that page and it's just a poorly worded sentence. Three quick ways out of the cockpit: both emergency exits ( actually the cockpit Windows ) and to the rear, first immediately into the cabin and then immediately out the forward cabin door. The Captains side emergency window exit and the exit by way of the forward cabin door were both not available since the right main gear had failed and the ship was resting on its right side.

[Old Age Pilot]

Didn't a Pan-Am Westland 30 fall off the roof of a building in NYC?

[Carbon Bootprint]

Omniflight operated Westland 30 service to JFK for PanAm in the mid-80s. No record of any mishaps AFAIK, however.

http://jjpostcards.com/40387-large_default/pan-am-omniflight-westland-30-1.jpg

[MikeNYC]

Relevant:

The Death and Life of Helicopter Commuting - Bloomberg (all about the 1977 accident and background)
8nbz5VFilxY

[FH1100 Pilot]

Omniflight operated Westland 30 service to JFK for PanAm in the mid-80s. No record of any mishaps AFAIK, however.


Oh? Okay, not with the Westland, but they did have a fatal accident involving one of their Bell 222 pax at Pan Am's 60th Street Heliport in Manhattan NYCf. I was there that day, just a lowly ramp guy at the time. It was about as horrible an experience as one can have.

At the time, the two 222 pilots would stay in the cockpit during the passenger loading and unloading. Since it was an "in-house" shuttle which was included in the price of the airline ticket, Omniflight and Pan Am considered it a FAR Part 91 operation. Thus, passenger briefings were non-existent.

For this particular flight the lead Pan Am Customer Service Representative walked a group of six people out to load on the left side of the running helicopter. One of them had a piece of luggage that was too large to fit in the cabin. The CSR took the piece and then told him he'd get it back at JFK.

Only two problems: 1) The passenger didn't speak very good English. And, what with the noise of the running 222, even if he did it would have been a confusing situation. 2) The passenger had a large amount of cash in what he thought was his "carry-on" bag. (When a cabin attendant takes your carry-on bag, it's usually because it's too big; what usually happens is they tag it and put it downstairs with the rest of the luggage. You get it back at baggage claim.)

The CSR got them all in, and then went around the nose of the 222 to put the bag in the baggage compartment, which is on the right. As she did, the passenger must have remembered the money in his carry-on. He got out of the helicopter and ducked under the tailboom just aft of the sponsons. But just as he was doing that, the CSR had closed the baggage compartment and now was walking back around the front of the ship. (Timing, right?) Seeing nobody, the man came back under the tailboom again. We figure that the first time, he'd felt the heat of the two engines. Second time, he walked right under the tailboom further aft, and right smack into the tail rotor. Not a pretty sight. His wife was onboard and I got the job of escorting her into the terminal.

Afterward, we all had a big meeting up in the top floor of the Pan Am Building, presided over by the president of the airline himself. All of the management types were congratulating themselves that this was a "one in a million" accident that couldn't have been prevented. Sure it was. "We did everything humanly possible to prevent this." Even I knew better, and said so. Yeah, Mr. Big Mouth even back then. I was not popular in that meeting.

After that, Pan Am/Omniflight instituted pre-boarding briefings, with big signs in multiple languages in the terminal waiting area. One pilot had to be outside of the a/c during rotors-turning loading and unloading.

My lesson? If you leave them to their own devices, unattended passengers *will* walk around the back of the helicopter, possibly right into the tail rotor, guaranteed. So my first choice is to shut down for loading/unloading. Failing that, I get out.

[Carbon Bootprint]

FH1100, for the record, I was solely responding to OAP's query about a Westland falling off the roof. I was not aware PanAm operated 222s, which I now know was in the early 80's before the Westlands were introduced.

However, I do appreciate your firsthand account of what by all means must have been a tragic and grim sight to witness. One that you'll never forget, I'm sure. Just like the arrogance of "the boss." You're absolutely right about pax not being left to do their own thing. Sorry you had to see and experience something like that, hoping the rest of us never do...

[FH1100 Pilot]

CB, oops! I didn't see the question from Old Age Pilot up there at the top.

Point is, the Bloomberg video kind of glosses over everything that happened after NYA. But in the early 1980's New York Helicopter started up (as a 135 not 121 operation) with a lot of ex-NYA people...good people. NYH was hooked up with TWA at the time. They used (6) SA-360C Dauphins and (3) Sikorsky S-58T's. Crazy times!

Of course Pan Am just couldn't leave well enough alone and entered into a relationship with Omniflight to provide competitive service that connected NYC, JFK and EWR. It started with four 222's and eventually added two WG-30's.

Also around that time (maybe a little later) was a guy who started a NYC (Wall Street Heliport) to JFK service using a couple of A-109's. I wish I could remember the name but old age is a bitch. Helicopter pilots being helicopter pilots, one day one of the 109 guys forgot to lower the gear and...crunch! Expensive crunch. That service didn't last long either. The 109's ended up abandoned in New Jersey, where most things go to die.

I think someone even tried a scheduled service using S-76's.

I guess people will just never learn.

[etudiant]

Actually one might have seen the accident coming.
My office at the time had a fine view north over Manhattan and the helicopters coming in for the Pan Am heliport.
The difference between the immaculate corporate machines and the dirty and bedraggled NYA units was very striking.
It was clear they were being ridden hard and put away wet. So they were most vulnerable to an unexpected weakness.

[Hot and Hi]

Arguably neither accident had anything to do with the fact that it was a rooftop operation (did I say this before?). Still the events had such a traumatic effect that not only did they factually put an end to New York City rooftop ops, but also created the urban legend that the Pan Am Helipad was closed down after the 1977 ground accident (both stated with authority here by some posters, as well as in the Bloomberg video). While we now learned that others airlines revived operations in the 1980s.

[Old Age Pilot]

FH1100, for the record, I was solely responding to OAP's query about a Westland falling off the roof.

Thanks, CB. It must've been one of those urban myths I managed to pick up on over the years!

And to FH1100 Pilot, that is a truly awful thing to have witnessed. I'm sure I speak for many of us when I say that if you've been in the game long enough, you'll have come across at least one very awful thing along the way :sad:

[Watson1963]

Nice YT video of New York Airways BV-107 operation from 1962.

AY18c0X4uWg&t=147s