Real range benefit B767-300 ER with Winglets

[A380MSN0001]

Hi everybody,

I was wondering according to your experiences what is the real gain of range between a B767-300ER and a B767-300ERW (equiped with winglets) at MTOW and same meteorological conditions.

I see from APB to various press articles numbers from 5% to 19% in terms of fuel savings so I'm curious to see the results in terms of range in reality.

Thanks for your feedbacks

[EMIT]

Real figures are 8 to 10 percent lower fuel consumption per distance, at least that is my experience.

[A380MSN0001]

Thanks for your feedback EMIT. So according to your experience, what is the max range you did at MTOW on a 763ERW?

[rog747]

a RR powered 300ER cannot have winglets fitted can it

[SR-22]

767-300ER | Aviation Partners Boeing (http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.com/products_767_300er.php)

[EMIT]

Hello A380,

Cannot give you a max range figure at MTOM, because that would depend "heavily" upon the load that you carry.

Say, MTOM is approximately 184 tons, max fuel load approx 72 tons, max ZFM approx 132 tons.
So, if absolute max range is your desire, load max fuel and limit yourself on payload. On the other hand, if you carry max payload, you cannot upload full fuel anymore, so you will restrict your range.

Possible ranges include western or northern Europe to Japan, or to Thailand, or to western Mexico (PVR) with a sensible load of passengers (approx 270).

[tdracer]

Real figures are 8 to 10 percent lower fuel consumption per distance, at least that is my experience.
I see that SR-22 sort of beat me to the punch, but 8-10 percent is way more than Aviation Partners is claiming. I have a buddy who works there (and worked on the 767 winglets) and he says 4-5% is typical.
Note also there is a significant weight impact - over a ton - to add winglets. Obviously the fuel burn more than makes up for it on a long flight, but they're not well suited to short hop.

[oceancrosser]

The winglets on the 763 reduce fuel burn by about 5-6%. The installed OEW increase is nearly 1500 kgs.

[Broomstick Flier]

On our outfit (freight) we can take the max payload, around 55t, on a MTOW departure for a 8 to 9 hours flight, tops. Above this flight time you start to trade payload for fuel.

Off course, passenger ops, either scheduled or charter, have much lower payloads and thus longer flights, on a MTOW departure, can be achieved.

[A380MSN0001]

Ok thanks for your feedbacks. And to go deeper with the numbers, does the following route is doable whatever the season (winds etc) :
Paris - Bangkok : 5108 NM
290 pax
B767-300ERW
No fret / only pax luggages

[zerograv]

does the following route is doable ... Paris - Bangkok ... with 290 pax ?

... if you stop somewhere midway to refuel

Otherwise would hazard a guess that it is just not possible, even with Winglets. To many Pax. If you go down to 260 pax ... it might work.

Naturally the main challenge is coming back where you are going against the wind.

The longest sectors I have done were Beijing to Kiev, and Kiev to JFK. 250 seats, no winglets. It was around 9.5 to 10 hours.

As the previous poster mentioned, after 8 or 9 hours you have to start trade payload for fuel.

Some "ball park" numbers:

Aircraft Empty = 90 tons
MTOW = 185 Tons
290 Paxs = 30 Tons (being conservative)
Fuel = 65 Tons

65 Tons of Fuel is good for around 11 hours (being conservative). Bangkok to Paris is likely to be longer than 11 hours ...

[Old Fella]

a RR powered 300ER cannot have winglets fitted can it

Why would Engine type fitted to a B767-300ER have any influence on whether or not winglets could be fitted? Could it be that the RR has a better SFC that the GE or P&W powerplants and it is not cost effective to mod the airframe if fitted with RR's?

[A380MSN0001]

Thanks for your feedback.
I've found out a practical case of this question :

Condor is flying 763ERW with 296 seats. During Summertime they do FRA - LAX wich is according to GCM 5046 NM (Great Circle Mapper (http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=fra+-+lax&DU=nm&SU=mph))

Would be interesting to know if they fly with limitation or not on that route.

[zerograv]

Tried to make a booking on Condor FRA-LAX.

Looks like that the flight is not direct. There 1 stop either in Seatle, or Portland, or Vancouver. From there onward you go with another airline with whom they happen to have an agreement.

In any case had a look at how long is the sector from FRA to Seatle or Portland. If I got it correct, FRA to Portland is advertised as being 10:55 flight. Still, have to say that if they doing that with 296 Pax, then there is a remarkable benefit from the Winglets.

Happy research!

[rog747]

Why would Engine type fitted to a B767-300ER have any influence on whether or not winglets could be fitted? Could it be that the RR has a better SFC that the GE or P&W powerplants and it is not cost effective to mod the airframe if fitted with RR's?

No, its all about the heavier Rolls Royce RB211 524G/H engine and wing loading effect which if with W/L added on causes a structural load issue and is not an economical fix or not even a feasible fix - hence BA cannot offload their fleet as resale value is poor due no retrofit possibility

- a pal at BA told me

[rog747]

... if you stop somewhere midway to refuel

Otherwise would hazard a guess that it is just not possible, even with Winglets. To many Pax. If you go down to 260 pax ... it might work.

Naturally the main challenge is coming back where you are going against the wind.

The longest sectors I have done were Beijing to Kiev, and Kiev to JFK. 250 seats, no winglets. It was around 9.5 to 10 hours.

As the previous poster mentioned, after 8 or 9 hours you have to start trade payload for fuel.

Some "ball park" numbers:

Aircraft Empty = 90 tons
MTOW = 185 Tons
290 Paxs = 30 Tons (being conservative)
Fuel = 65 Tons

65 Tons of Fuel is good for around 11 hours (being conservative). Bangkok to Paris is likely to be longer than 11 hours ...

in 2004 a holiday company CT2 started up called AV8 airlines to fly direct charters from MANCHESTER and DUBLIN to CAPE TOWN with a 767-300ER in a 2-3-2 config 278 seats

no wing lets fitted to the leased Icelandic 763

MAN-CPT is around 5350nm

the operation went bust within a year

It seems the flight did operate non-stop to CPT from Both MAN and DUB on most occasions and the return flights often dropped in to Palma or LPA for fuel

[Old Fella]

No, its all about the heavier Rolls Royce RB211 524G/H engine and wing loading effect which if with W/L added on causes a structural load issue and is not an economical fix or not even a feasible fix - hence BA cannot offload their fleet as resale value is poor due no retrofit possibility

- a pal at BA told me

rog747, your mate uses different weight to those I have:

RB211-524H-T - dry weight 9,470 lb
PW4060 - dry weight 9,213 lb
CF6-80C2B6 - dry weight 9,670 lb

[TURIN]

It's a small fleet. Less than 30 aircraft.
The R&D costs would be too great and due to the nature of the internal wing/pylon structure being different to the GE & PW fit, the cost benefits are not as great.

[rog747]

rog747, your mate uses different weight to those I have:

RB211-524H-T - dry weight 9,470 lb
PW4060 - dry weight 9,213 lb
CF6-80C2B6 - dry weight 9,670 lb

thanks for that - interesting of course - but I was told 767-300R RR 211-524H at 9670lbs weight (the H/T at 9470lbs) powered a/c cannot have winglets fitted due wing loading/stress issues - apparently that is the bottom line I heard - if someone knows different then do tell.

Now sorry i dont have a link to that info but that would suggest its likely as BA cannot or did not offload their fleet except to the boneyard and a few went off to QF some 17 years ago who also did not retrofit them with WL.

so I guess there is some Tech issue with Rolls engines on a 763 and having WL fitted otherwise BA would have done it surely ?

[rog747]

It's a small fleet. Less than 30 aircraft.
The R&D costs would be too great and due to the nature of the internal wing/pylon structure being different to the GE & PW fit, the cost benefits are not as great.

yes i heard it was the pylon issue too and R&D for a different mod for a small fleet would not add up

[A380MSN0001]

Tried to make a booking on Condor FRA-LAX.

Looks like that the flight is not direct. There 1 stop either in Seatle, or Portland, or Vancouver. From there onward you go with another airline with whom they happen to have an agreement.

In any case had a look at how long is the sector from FRA to Seatle or Portland. If I got it correct, FRA to Portland is advertised as being 10:55 flight. Still, have to say that if they doing that with 296 Pax, then there is a remarkable benefit from the Winglets.

Happy research!

Well the longest I have with Condor is 4956 NM to Mauritius (MRU) in both directions direct - 296 pax.

If someone has better numbers please reply.

[tdracer]

Delta operates Seattle/Shanghai with a 767-300 - 4967 NM.
But they have a large business class and no where near 296 seats.


BTW, the installed fuel burn of the RB211-524G/H was significantly worse on the 767 relative to Pratt and GE. That's a big reason only 40 were built (again, it's never been clear to me why the RB211 worked better on the 747-400 than 767, although installed weight (not dry weight) was often mentioned as a problem).