Aircrew Armed ?

[The RAF Taff]

So I watched 'Blackhawk down' last night and during the scene where Mike Durant defends himself with an MP5 I wondered if RAF aircrew and pilots are armed in the event they are shot down and if so what with? L22 Carbine?

[downsizer]

OpSec IMO. but no doubt others will disagree.

[1771 DELETE]

Used to be an old Browning 9mm SLP, i think they have now switched to the Glock 17 or 19 9mm pistol.

[Treble one]

IIRC In 'Tornado Down' so GW1 of course JN and JP talked about pistols when they were approached by Iraqi troops?

[Sloppy Link]

History: I recall reading a book about the outbreak of war and the aircrew all being issued with Webleys. The statistic escapes me but there were quite a few shots heard around the Mess that evening and one pilot was hospitalised with a gunshot wound.
Today: Carbine, Glock and a vicious fighting knife that would see me arrested if out and about with it in the UK.

[Danny42C]

In 1943 in Burma they gave me a .38 Smith & Wesson, and 18 rounds: "That's the lot", they said, "No more - sell your life dearly".

Thanks a lot !

[hoss183]

If i remember correctly from Tornado Down, they talked about the pistol being in the ejection survival kit.

[57mm]

I recall during GW1, one of the RSAF aircrew playing with his automatic pistol in the cockpit; he dropped the magazine onto the floor, where several rounds fell out....

On another occasion, while checking his pistol in the ops room, another aircrew member fired a round into the ceiling....

[hoss183]

I recall during GW1, one of the RSAF aircrew playing with his automatic pistol in the cockpit; he dropped the magazine onto the floor, where several rounds fell out....

On another occasion, while checking his pistol in the ops room, another aircrew member fired a round into the ceiling....

Sounds dangerous this war stuff... ;)

[Herod]

Danny. It progressed. In Aden '67 we had the same, but only twelve rounds Defence cuts? Mind you, if you insisted, it was possible to draw a Stirling SMG with, IIRC, two magazines of twenty rounds each. I guess it kept the enemy's heads down until the rescue chopper came.

[Pontius Navigator]

After the Browning came the Walter, 7.62? Fewer rounds than the Browning. Plenty of practise, annual shoot with very few rounds. Group and then snap, jammed rounds drill and magazine change.

What was never discussed was tactical use and ROE. We always fired two handed from standing position at the charging enemy just 15 metres away. If in the middle of nowhere faced by one man I might have been tempted. Two men - not a chance.

If an unarmed person discovered you, could you shoot him? If you did and were then caught I don't think you would get a fair trial. If he was armed I don't think his mates would have been that happy either.

[Arclite01]

I've got a feeling that Apache crews carry the Glock and also an SA80 in the aircraft........

Arc

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

When I was an AAC pilot we were issued with a Browning 9mm automatic and 2 full magazines. But that was a long time ago.

NEO

[hoss183]

If an unarmed person discovered you, could you shoot him? If you did and were then caught I don't think you would get a fair trial. If he was armed I don't think his mates would have been that happy either.

Again thats what i recall the descision of the 'Tornado Down' aircrew decided when several Republican Guard were advancing on them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kpiaP_yaIg
From about 11:30 they discuss that.

[charliegolf]

Crewmen were routinely armed with a 9mm pistol and 10 rounds; and an SLR with 20. But only on a particular det/posting.

CG

[ShyTorque]

Crewmen were routinely armed with a 9mm pistol and 10 rounds; and an SLR with 20. But only on a particular det/posting.
CG

In my time there, pilots got 3 full mags (of 10 rounds each?) for the 9mm and two of 30 each for the SA80.

Crewmen were obviously deemed better shots (or more expendable).... :p

(If you discount the box of 200 7.62 mm for the machine gun, that is).

Goodness knows how far over the coals you'd get dragged for actually firing any of them - losing a round was almost a hanging offence.

[Saintsman]

Slight thread drift, but I remember in the 70's on exercises and guard duty we were armed with a pick-axe handle.

[Danny42C]

Saintsman,

Same thing ("pick-helves") in 1941. All the rifles were needed for the Home Guard. Should've thought the supply position was a bit better thirty years later. Perhaps someone had negotiated a crafty contract for pick-helves !

I wonder what happened to them all.

Danny.

[NRU74]

We had a jaapie copilot on Victors who had a (UK) licensed Mauser. On overseas trips he flew with it stored in a kind of 'speed rig' holster under his left armpit under his flying suit. He left in the aircraft on overnight stops.

[The Old Fat One]

When I was on the kipper fleet I often flew with a Brownie and a magazine...Playboy mostly, sometimes Penthouse.

[BEagle]

All tanker crews deployed on OP GRANBY were issued with the deadly 9mm SLP and 2 mags. Quite why, I don't know - the likelihood of a VC10K surviving a crash landing in a hostile area was akin to snowballs in hell.

Come Endex, or rather Endwar, when the rounds were counted back not a single one had been lost!

[esa-aardvark]

When my father was at ?????? (better not say), he had a number of Sterling guns stored under the stairs.
Was a nuclear establishment. I worked not too far away where they had some 'dial-a-nuke' (not UK obviously).

[DODGYOLDFART]

Back in the late 50's and early 60's at Gutersloh the Hunter and Swift drivers would have been armed with the same kit that Danny had in WW2 - 38 Smith and Wesson revolver and 12 rounds of ammo. Each year there was the ceremonial practice session conducted on the Station range. Many pranks played including hiding someone's hat behind the target, etc.

If push had ever come to shove there we only about 30 Smith and Wessons in the armoury to share among over 80 drivers. I suppose the logic was they would not all be airborne at the same time - a bit like the aircraft when you come to think of it!

[Top Bunk Tester]

PN

Walther PPK or PP 7.65mm, seven in the mag and one up the spout. Prone to jamming (don't tell Mr Bond), in fact Insp James Beaton found this to his cost in 1974 when he attempted to bring down Princess Anne's assailent in the Mall. He did however end up being shot himself whilst attempting to clear the PPK. Messrs Peters & Nichols surmised it would probably be better to throw the Walthers at the oncoming enemy troops.

[Pontius Navigator]

TB, when armed in the Nimrod we would probably have used the 9mm for shooting empty RAT packets in or dinghy or capturing a Kresta had ne come sailing by.

[Herod]

The .38 had a jumpy hammer. It was not unknown for it to fire if one jumped from the aircraft and landed a bit smartish on the ground. Five in the chamber only, and an empty one under the hammer.

[Royalistflyer]

I remember being issued with a Belgian hammerless revolver and six rounds. The gun I got was filthy - barrel full of dust. I cleaned it and on one jaunt I fired a shot to assure myself that it would fire. There was hell to pay when we got back -- there was a round missing!!

[klingonbc]

Spent over 10 years flying with a trusty Browning 9mm plus 10 rounds. On the ground it was 4 mags of 9mm (13/12/12/13) and awesome training for that role. Latter years the most impressive addition was the Heckler & Koch HK53 with 2 x 25 round mags twin clipped to the weapon. Our cockpit was too cramped for the SA80 (thank god!) and the HK came with sliding stock to make it compact. The HK53 was a slightly longer barrel 5.56mm version of the MP5 and far better than the SA80. Add each front crew's Browning and HK to the rear crew LSW and GPMG plus 400 rounds made it an impressive crew weapon load.
Several years later and another location saw Chinese made AK-47 and Makarov 9mm as issued personal weapons (and the buckshee 7.62 FN and 1000 rounds left by the predecessor) for use flying and on the ground. So yes - some aircrew do end up with some interesting kit depending on their role. Kbc

[The RAF Taff]

Spent over 10 years flying with a trusty Browning 9mm plus 10 rounds. On the ground it was 4 mags of 9mm (13/12/12/13) and awesome training for that role. Latter years the most impressive addition was the Heckler & Koch HK53 with 2 x 25 round mags twin clipped to the weapon. Our cockpit was too cramped for the SA80 (thank god!) and the HK came with sliding stock to make it compact. The HK53 was a slightly longer barrel 5.56mm version of the MP5 and far better than the SA80. Add each front crew's Browning and HK to the rear crew LSW and GPMG plus 400 rounds made it an impressive crew weapon load.
Several years later and another location saw Chinese made AK-47 and Makarov 9mm as issued personal weapons (and the buckshee 7.62 FN and 1000 rounds left by the predecessor) for use flying and on the ground. So yes - some aircrew do end up with some interesting kit depending on their role. Kbc
What aircraft was this ?

[jayteeto]

On the original question, the answer is yes.
It's not any secret, press photos often showed the weapons.
The amount of 'heat packed' depended on the space availability. On operations, I felt comfortably able to defend myself for a short amount of time. On one particular mission , we could have defended ourselves for a month.

[Pontius Navigator]

jayteeto, and therein lies the rub. A 9mm and 13 rounds is not worth the trouble carrying it. Even as static aircraft guarding it is useless. As a personal weapon of an FOB, coming face to face with intruders, you might have a slim chance apart from the Rock paranoia of making safe when you go into a building.

As individual downed aircrew, even if two of you join up, you are going to be luck to survive a shoot out.

[Bladdered]

We had a jaapie copilot on Victors who had a (UK) licensed Mauser. On overseas trips he flew with it stored in a kind of 'speed rig' holster under his left armpit under his flying suit. He left in the aircraft on overnight stops.


That was probably the same guy who when the singlies went to down town Ting a Ling for Pizza asked me to get something out of his glove compartment, only to find a pistol with ammo - his excuse, he represented the RAF shooting team and had forgotten to put it back in the armoury (assuming he ever did).

[ian16th]

Slight thread drift, but I remember in the 70's on exercises and guard duty we were armed with a pick-axe handle.
At Akrotiri, early 60's, the guard of the 'bomb dump' that contained nukes, was armed with a pick handle.

When the Greek v Turk trouble blew up and 2 Para arrived, they took over such duties with SLR's of some sort.

[Basil]

I remember being issued with a Belgian hammerless revolver and six rounds. The gun I got was filthy - barrel full of dust. I cleaned it and on one jaunt I fired a shot to assure myself that it would fire. There was hell to pay when we got back -- there was a round missing!!
Back in the late 50s early 60s, I was a TA REME 25pdr gunfitter and we were all a bit relaxed about firearms and ammo.
Even took some .303 rounds to the workshop and dismantled them, burnt off the cordite and banged the initiator. Never tried burning a whole 25pdr bag of cordite :E

[lsd]

Back to Aden in '67, not convinced about the effectiveness and stopping power of a WWI revolver, on leaving Riyan in a hurry at the end of August I somehow acquired a GPMG and box of 7.62mm. Bit of a haul lugging it across dispersal, stowed it under the cabin seats but when the boss found out I was holding it on the squadron for ready access, it's days were numbered. Took most of a morning to get the Khormaksar armoury to take it on charge, maybe the previous Hereford owners had forgotten to provide proper paperwork.
And then in Nortern Ireland we had progressed to the 9mm Browning - which one morning upset our crew room uckers relaxation when a guy (green shield and new to such items) demonstrated the clearance drill -NOT!

[Melchett01]

Again thats what i recall the descision of the 'Tornado Down' aircrew decided when several Republican Guard were advancing on them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kpiaP_yaIg
From about 11:30 they discuss that.

And the lessons drawn from the likes of this and Bravo Two Zero - always shoot the goat herder!

[3 bladed beast]

I carry around 'old painless'.......

[Pontius Navigator]

Melchett, which returns to my question about ROE.

I wonder if there were many instances in WW 2, if aircrew were armed, or Vietnam, where aircrew used a pistol in E&E.

I imagine at night or in the jungle your chances would have been different whereas in open country shoot one and you have given your position away.

[Danny42C]

BEagle (#21),

When it was All Over, I handed in my S&W and the 18 rounds. Not one had been fired. I could probably have done more damage (if needs had been) with the kukri, which I wore on the other hip to balance it.

On VE day, some Wild Colonial Boys fired feux-de-joie through the Mess basha roof, this was much deprecated by the elders, as it brought down an assortment of unpleasant invertebrates which dwelt in the palm thatch and were better left up there.

Danny.

[Just This Once...]

I think we have finally settled on a pistol, for now at least. For me the merry-go-round has been: Browning -> Walther PP -> Browning (again) -> Sig P228 > Browning (again, again) -> Sig P226 -> Glock 19.

[BEagle]

Danny42C wrote: ...the kukri, which I wore on the other hip to balance it.

My late father served in the Royal Bombay Sapper and Miners. His bearer made him a kukri out of a leaf spring from a written-off Chevrolet(?) 6x6 truck...

The leather case has rotted badly and I've lost the skinning knife and steel, but still have the villainous kukri hidden safely out of sight. I last used it a few years ago when hacking down some ivy; I didn't need to remember the tradition of having to draw blood once the kukri was out of its sheath, as it did that quite happily itself, due to my carelessness!

[Herod]

lsd. Was the original plan to bring it back to UK with your personal effects?

ref the .38. I reckon you would do more damage throwing it at the enemy.

[MPN11]

The .38/200 round has the distinctive characteristic of enabling you to see the black trace as it makes it's leisurely way down-range. Who ever though that was a suitable personal defence weapon?

[Pontius Navigator]

We drew pistols at Gan, took all that they had. It was a mixed bag of S&W and Colt and may be others.

[Lonewolf_50]

On the missions where I flew armed, I carried a .45ACP with one mag loaded, one in a flight suit pocket, and one in the survival vest "extra stuff" pouch.

[Trim Stab]

AAC pilots are flying soldiers, with basic infantry training at minimum, and operating in a dedicated aerial role in close proximity to ground troops, so usually fly in kit similar to the ground troops- i.e. DPM, combat boots, side arm, webbing and gat. They would be expected to join the fight on the ground if necessary (as happened in Gan). RAF SH pilots are usually insertion/evacuation, so fly in grow bags usually just with a side-arm for last resort, relying on door/tailgunners and ground support for defence. RN/RM jungly SH pilots fall somewhere between - I've seen them carrying SA80s in the cockpit.

I don't know about FJ pilots. We always suspected they just were sipping their gin and tonics.

It's all a bit role specific, so no definite answer.

[Fareastdriver]

In Borneo we were issued with a Smith & Wesson with twelve rounds and this was dated 1947 or thereabouts. One pilot shot himself in the foot when his second shot pushed the first one out of the barrel onto his toe.

I found a dodge using rotor blade tape where I could use 9mm. ammunition. Far more accurate and stacks of disposable ammo from the Ghurkhas.

[26er]

In 2 TAF in the late fifties the only guns I was familiar with were 4x30mm Adens. No thought of personal weapons. Where would you stow one in a Hunter or Swift? Previously at Suez I had contemplated putting one in my growbag pocket but it certainly wouldn't have survived an ejection.

[lsd]

Hi Herod,
Seemed like a reasonable idea when flogging around upcountry but by the time we ended up on base IS patrols I felt any problems would have been sorted by guys a lot better qualified than me (take your choice from Navy, Army or RAF - they were all there aching to get stuck in I thought), so turned my thoughts to getting a fridge or air conditioning unit shipped north but was unsuccessful as the supply wing had got wise towards the end of that debacle....
ah......happy days when common sense was a rare commodity

[Pontius Navigator]

When we did the short jungle survival course the PJI had a whole list of toys to add to our kit, condoms, tweezers two name two and to buy a $20 pistol. Not sure if that was USD or Malayan.

[Fonsini]

The .38/200 round has the distinctive characteristic of enabling you to see the black trace as it makes it's leisurely way down-range. Who ever though that was a suitable personal defence weapon?

When tested the .38/200 was assessed by the British as being the equivalent of the .455 in terms of terminal ballistics. It was introduced in the belief that recruits were unable to handle the recoil impulse of the .455 Webley and required excessive training, even though the recoil impulse of that round is lower than its contemporary the .45ACP, and quite honestly the Colt round is a pussycat to shoot in anything other than a +p loading. Concerns over the lead being too soft and therefore a potential Hague issue resulted in a lighter 178 grain jacketed bullet that was far less effective than the original.

I have always thought that giving aircrew anything other than revolvers is a bad idea. A good 3" .38 Special would be my choice, double action only with a concealed hammer. If it absolutely had to be a semi-auto I would go for a traditional DA/SA in Condition 3, with caliber of choice.

[Rosevidney1]

I liked the idea of a personal firearm but there was a problem. Where to wear or stow it? Depending on choice would you prefer to be uncomfortable by wearing it or risk the thing getting in the way? In the Sioux days in the Middle East there was no problem, but in Northern Ireland when wearing body armour it was a different story in Scouts and later the Gazelle.

[minigundiplomat]

Better to use the big gun in the air, than have to rely on the little gun on the ground.

[Wensleydale]

I read that in Aden in the 1950s, No 8 Sqn developed a drop tank for the Venom that could be dropped to downed aircrew. It included a .303 rifle and ammunition.

[Royalistflyer]

Melchett, which returns to my question about ROE.

I wonder if there were many instances in WW 2, if aircrew were armed, or Vietnam, where aircrew used a pistol in E&E.

I imagine at night or in the jungle your chances would have been different whereas in open country shoot one and you have given your position away.
I knew a chap who served in Vietnam - he was a karate expert. He was downed and preferred his hands to his gun. I believe from others that he killed a couple of the opposition.
Wasn't the original scorpion developed for Warsaw pact pilots to carry?

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

[QUOTEThey would be expected to join the fight on the ground if necessary (as happened in Gan). [/QUOTE]

What happened at Gan?

Aaron.

[MPN11]

In Borneo we were issued with a Smith & Wesson with twelve rounds and this was dated 1947 or thereabouts. One pilot shot himself in the foot when his second shot pushed the first one out of the barrel onto his toe.
I'm sure I've posted this image of my .38/200 barrels somewhere here in the past ...

[charliegolf]

[QUOTEThey would be expected to join the fight on the ground if necessary (as happened in Gan).

What happened at Gan?

Aaron.[/QUOTE]

Big kick-off in the NAAFI?:E

CG

[Pontius Navigator]

CG, no, Blue Lagoon when the trooper stopped over.

In '64 there were fears that the Indonesians might send their Sverdlov cruiser to harass and invade. A squad of RAF Regt was despatched from Catterick at no notice, they left notes for wives, gone to Far East don't know for how long.

They made a moving sight parading every day, pale blue PT shirts. Navy PT shorts, black socks, boots and putties but no pith helmets, and armed with .303s. A brave sight.

[ExGrunt]

AAC pilots are flying soldiers, with basic infantry training at minimum, and operating in a dedicated aerial role in close proximity to ground troops, so usually fly in kit similar to the ground troops- i.e. DPM, combat boots, side arm, webbing and gat. They would be expected to join the fight on the ground if necessary

As indeed their Glider Pilot Regiment forebears did at Arnhem. More up to date, and on topic, IIRC there was a brief period after the 1988 Silverbridge ambush that AAC crews in South Armagh were armed with HK53s.

EG

[Old-Duffer]

Ah Ha, at Kuantan in 1965, I was issued with an Orlikon 20mm cannon - one of only six deployed on the station (all in a straight line beside the runway).

I was trained on this thing and thought good stuff - come on Indonesian air force - make my day!!!!

Then we had an exercise and I was to discover that there were only five 'pans' of ammo and for this exercise my gun and crew weren't 'served'.

Old Duffer

[Pontius Navigator]

OD, I think if we delved too deeply into the RAF or Army in those days we would have found the tail well and truely docked. We give the RAF respirators and tin hats and a gun each, the whole issh was destined to disappear in a flash of light.

[Trim Stab]

[QUOTEThey would be expected to join the fight on the ground if necessary (as happened in Gan).

What happened at Gan?

Aaron.[/QUOTE]


Read Ed Macey MC's book.

[Pontius Navigator]

TS, I presume that was code for (AF)GAN,

[YellowTom]

OP, these days landing somewhere you weren't planning to land at can be just a big a headache.

[Rosevidney1]

YellowTom
OP, these days landing somewhere you weren't planning to land at can be just a big a headache.

It was ever thus.

[Davef68]

What happened at Gan?

Aaron.


Read Ed Macey MC's book.[/QUOTE]


Ah, not Gan then......

Royal Air Force Gan - Remembered (http://www.gan.philliptsmall.me.uk/)


Didn't 'Macey' make an unathorised mod to his L22 (or use it without the front grip as it needed to be removed to get it in the Apache)?

[teeteringhead]

As indeed their Glider Pilot Regiment forebears did at Arnhem And including of course the high percentage of RAF glider pilots at Arnhem.......

(not sure how many - will look it up)

[Edited to add:]

Apologies to the GPR - getting my MARKET GARDEN (Arnhem) mixed up with my VARSITY (Rhine crossing) - I really should know better!

GPR suffered 90% cas at Arnhem, so 1500 :eek: RAF pilots were drafted in for the Rhine crossing. In that Operation, 60% of the glider aircrew kia were RAF ..........

...... and they did their bit: For example, Squadron Leader Reynolds was flying a Horsa with Flying Officer Bayley as his co-pilot. On his approach to his landing target, Reynolds saw a German four-gun light flack battery shooting at other gliders. He ordered Bayley to take control of the Horsa while he engaged the Germans with a sub-machine gun, firing through the cockpit canopy. He killed or wounded all of the gun crew and took the survivors prisoner after Bayley had landed the glider.

Reynolds then came under fire from a nearby four-gun flack battery and he ordered Bayley to attack it with a PIAT, an elementary anti-tank weapon with an effective range of about 50 yards. Bailey crawled off and scored a direct hit killing the gun crew in the position.

(quoted from the Assault Glider Trust website. (https://www.assaultglidertrust.co.uk) )

[ExAscoteer]

GPR suffered 90% cas at Arnhem, so 1500 :eek: RAF pilots were drafted in for the Rhine crossing. In that Operation, 60% of the glider aircrew kia were RAF ..........

...... and they did their bit:


A walk around the Oosterbeek war cemetary is quite sobering.

The 60% casualty rate on Varsity is directly representative of the percentage of glider pilots taking part who were RAF (one of whom was my late Father).

[Bigbux]

I always thought that aircrew pistols were issued so that the downed aircrew could do the decent thing prior to capture, and save the Queen's secrets by a self-applied coup de grace.

A full magazine is supplied because the accuracy of aircrew pistols degrades rapidly with range.