Liberator over Horsetooth Reservoir

[tonytales]

Friend and I were on his boat at abut 17:00 MST on Horsetooth Reservoir which is located in the foothills west and above Ft Collins, Colorado. It was a bit choppy so we were idling along when I noticed a large aircraft flying north several thousand feet up. Horsetooth itself is at about 5500 ft.
My eyesight is not great but I noticed large twin fins, an unswept high aspect ratio wing mounted high on the fuselage and four piston engines." Its a B-24 Liberator," I said. My buddy, who is a private pilot and enthusiast agreed. Couldn't make out marking. It proceeded northward and we lost sight.
Half hour later it again flew over us from south to north giving us a chance to confirm our sighting. Talk of a thrill. Not seen one for years, I am not aware of any airshows in the area and the two passes over us is puzzling.
Still, it made my day.

[porch monkey]

Can't be a choice of many, isn't there only 2 flying now? Collings Foundation and 1 other? yeah, just had a look. Collings and CAF.

[DaveReidUK]

The Collings Liberator in in Nebraska at the moment, so if it was a B-24 it must have been the CAF one (Diamond Lil), although their website doesn't mention any UK tour.

Wings of Freedom Tour Archives - The Collings Foundation (http://www.collingsfoundation.org/events/category/wings-of-freedom-tour/)

Commemorative Air Force Touring Calendar (https://commemorativeairforce.org/root/calendar)

[megan]

website doesn't mention any UK tourOP says Colorado Dave.

[treadigraph]

Tony's in Colorado Dave! :)

Looks like the CAF are taking some of their aircraft up to Oshkosh, so perhaps it stopped off to do a couple of rides?

Canadian Lancaster might fit the bill but that appears to have been giving Bruce Dickinson a ride at Hamilton yesterday. LUcky chap!

[DaveReidUK]

Tony's in Colorado Dave! :)

Today's geography lesson. :\

I'm just envious, I'd give my eye teeth to see a B-24 in the air.

I remember glueing my Revell one together as a kid and marvelling at the retractable ventral ball turret.

[treadigraph]

Lucky enough to see Diamond Lil when sh came to the UK in 1990 or so, and again at Midland.

I have seen the Collings Foundation B-24J - in bits and shoehorned into Doug Arnold's hangar at Blackbushe. Astonishing that it could fit inside the Belfast that ferried it from India to Stansted...

I've got two or three 1/48th Monogram/Revell kits in the loft (and a B-29) - one day...

[Fareastdriver]

The last Liberator I saw was an Indian Navy one approaching Juhu airfield in Oct. 1963.

Around 1980 when flying offshore Aberdeen a Shackelton was flying a sortie near the Beryl. An American voice from somewhere came up.

"You guys still flying Liberators?"

[izod tester]

On 23 June this year I was at Discovery Point, Seattle and was lucky enough to see the Flying Heritage Collection Mosquito flying over Puget Sound. Later that afternoon I saw the CAF B24 flying North to South at about 1000 ft over Ballard Locks. Completely fortuitous and a great treat.

[Shackman]

If I had a pound for every time an American voice called us a Liberator............... I could understand groundcrew/ATC etc, but it did worry me when AD crews (who really should know aircraft identification) did as well

[treadigraph]

Looks like it was the Collings Foundation B-24J...

saNG34j_YSI

[galaxy flyer]

If I had a pound for every time an American voice called us a Liberator............... I could understand groundcrew/ATC etc, but it did worry me when AD crews (who really should know aircraft identification) did as well

There was no problem with their aircraft identification training, it just didn't include antique flying machines. I doubt they could identify a Sopeith, either.

GF

[tonytales]

Ft Collins (no fort here now) Colorado is definitely in the western United States. :)
What I saw was certainly a Liberator. Unfortunately a bit too high to see markings with the naked eye. It was twin tailed so not a former water bomber PB4Y-2.
Last time I saw four Merlins working was in late 40's/50's while I was hanging over the observation deck railing at KLGA watching the Air Canada North Stars. Never got to work any but they certainly had an air of elegance that the round-engined C-54/DC-4 lacked. But I did like working those R-2000's. Great engines.
I will get a chance to see a B-24 up close in October when I attend the Aircraft Engine Historical Society Convention in Tuscon, Arizona. We will get over to the Pima Air And Space Museum hopefully getting permission to get up close to the exhibits. Oh happy days indeed.

[b1lanc]

Last time I saw four Merlins working was in late 40's/50's while I was hanging over the observation deck railing at KLGA watching the Air Canada North Stars. Never got to work any but they certainly had an air of elegance that the round-engined C-54/DC-4 lacked.

Nothing sounds as sweet as a Merlin.

Then again, any heavy prop gets me running out of the house. The Collings team usually does rides or refuels once or twice a year at two airfields by me and when they do, they go very nearly over my house on each circuit. Marvelous to see and hear though I must admit the Breitling Connie was a special surprise and treat!

For those in the peanut gallery, was there a physical difference between the RR and Packard built engines - exhaust maybe? Been to many air shows since the '70s and there are two distinctly different sounds on take-off which I've captured on some old VCR tapes many times. Seems to be about 50/50 with the same 51 model type.

[ICT_SLB]

If you're in Colorado, the International B-24 Memorial Museum (http://www.pwam.org/b24museum.html) is at Pueblo Municipal Airport - now part of the Pueblo Weisbrod Aircraft Museum. Ironically the largest aircraft on display is not a Liberator but a B-29, Peaches, which was one of the original nuclear bombers based at nearby Roswell, NM.

[BEagle]

USAF aircraft recce skills were always rather.....varied.

Listening to the Kef Sloe Gins joining a pair of Bears following a UK Q intercept:

"There's a civil airliner in formation with them!"
"TriStar tanker of the Royal Air Force actually, old chap"
"Oh yeah, ahh OK"

As we closed up to take over from the TriStar:

"Now there's a British Nimrod joining in!"
"Well, we might be the same colour, but actually we're a VC10K tanker of the Royal Air Force"
"Ah, roger..."

The F-15s were then sent off to their tanker about 50 miles away - it seems that SAC 135s weren't allowed to play with Bears.

In Turkey, occasionally there'd be some massive mission brief held about 6 hours before the first take-off. It started with an actual weather brief, but no forecast. Then some recce brief, including piccies of various aircraft. This wasn't long after a pair of F-15s had shot down their own Blackhawks thinking them to be Iraqi Hinds.... By now we were getting rather annoyed with this ridiculous brief, so when the Int Off flashed up a photo of an F-15C, a Brit voice was heard to exclaim "Hind, Hind! Waste that mutha!!"...:uhoh:

[megan]

was there a physical difference between the RR and Packard built enginesMain differences were,

AC Delco magnetos instead of British BTH (interchangeable)
Supercharger drive on two stage engine was epicyclic (Wright Aeronautical patent) versus RR Farman
Engines supplied to Curtiss and North American featured SAE No. 50 prop shaft splines rather than standard British splines
Not to be seen, but crankshaft bearing material was silver with lead-iridium flash versus RR lead bronze with lead-iridium flash
Bendix injection carburettor rather than the "g" sensitive British SU
And of course they carried a different designations eg A V 1650-1 was equivalent to a RR Merlin 28 or 29. Other Packard engines were identified by a "2" prefix eg RR -25 became 225, -24 became 224 etc

[b1lanc]

Main differences were,

AC Delco magnetos instead of British BTH (interchangeable)
Supercharger drive on two stage engine was epicyclic (Wright Aeronautical patent) versus RR Farman
Engines supplied to Curtiss and North American featured SAE No. 50 prop shaft splines rather than standard British splines
Not to be seen, but crankshaft bearing material was silver with lead-iridium flash versus RR lead bronze with lead-iridium flash
Bendix injection carburettor rather than the "g" sensitive British SU
And of course they carried a different designations eg A V 1650-1 was equivalent to a RR Merlin 28 or 29. Other Packard engines were identified by a "2" prefix eg RR -25 became 225, -24 became 224 etc

Thanks Megan. Of course I have no idea what power plant was in each 51, but the best way I can describe it is many sounded like the Spit's I've heard and the others were distinctly different on take-off and low fly by for that matter.

[condor17]

Nice spot Tony ,
Glad the military still do a/c ident training . Always thought civvies should do some as well .
Mate of mine recently retired after a full career , still can't tell a Cessna from a Piper .

rgds condor .

[The Flying Pram]

Lucky enough to see Diamond Lil when she came to the UK in 1990 or soNot wishing to sound as if I'm point scoring, but I had a passenger flight in her when she visited Norwich during that tour. I distinctly remember it being escorted in by a pair of Jaguars - RAF Coltishall was still operational then - and they were pretty nose high trying to stay with the old girl! I must have some pictures hiding in an album somewhere. The crew told us how sensitive it is in pitch, and said they always try to catch new pilots out by letting them get it trimmed nicely, then a couple of them would walk all the way to the tail, wait for a bit and then walk back forward again...

Nice to hear that it's still flying.

TFP

[DHfan]

Not to be seen, but crankshaft bearing material was silver with lead-iridium flash versus RR lead bronze with lead-iridium flash

Surely that's lead-indium, not lead-iridium?

[megan]

Quite correct DHfan. :ok: I'm in need of a proof reader.

[Tankengine]

Thanks Megan. Of course I have no idea what power plant was in each 51, but the best way I can describe it is many sounded like the Spit's I've heard and the others were distinctly different on take-off and low fly by for that matter.

Early model Mustangs had Allison engines, not sure if any are flying now.
Conversly late Spitfires had RR Griffon instead of Merlins.
Either way there are some different sounds out there! :)

[treadigraph]

There's a couple of Allison powered P-51As and A-36 Apaches flying in the US. EAA have an XP-51 in their collection, not sure if it flies any more.

[GWYN]

Sorry! I couldn't resist uploading a few photos of Diamond Lil's visit to Dunkeswell, Jun 1992. Great times and amazing to see a B-24 at Dunks.

Apologies for the quality; they are scanned from prints.

[GWYN]

...and some more. Very eerie and evocative seeing the B-24 departing into a low overcast from that place.