Helicopter Crash Near Warwick

[Gash Handlin]

from BBC Ceefax....

"Two die as helicopter crashes in field"

Two men have been killed as their helicopter crashed into a field near the A46, close to Warwick.

Motorists alerted police after seeing the crash at about 6pm in Hampton Magna. The men, one aged around 35 and the other about 45, died at the scene.

Police said the two-seater helicopter had taken off from Wellesbourne airfield, near Stratford-Upon-Avon.

The Civil Aviation Authority has been informed of the accident."


:( RIP

[luoto]

believed to be a Robinson R-22 :(

Are these small choppers "less safe" or more likely to be involved in an incident because they are more popular? My SO is thinking of taking instruction in this "black art" so obviously I've been keeping a closer eye on such news.

[Thomas coupling]

My empathy with respective families...

Assuming it's not weather, are there comparative stats showing like for like crash data on the R22. For instance: number of crashes per 100,000hrs flying compared to say an enstrom/300?

They do seem to take up a major chunk of the crash stats... :(

[md 600 driver]

does anyone know who it was

mine and my familys condolences to everyone another sad day.

[luoto]

The latest information in the public prints doesn't reveal their identies, but maybe the take-off location would reveal clues to those who fly out there. Sad day. The public prints don't seem to imply any wx problems.

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_2127000/2127245.stm)
Go2Coventry (http://iccoventry.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/page.cfm?objectid=12032937&method=full&siteid=50002)

[Vfrpilotpb]

My feelings are with the families of the two deceased, the two flyers, who were very much like a lot of us were out for a flight possibly fun or with a cause, I feel it is very sad when comments about their particular accident is discussed in what seems to be in a slightly callous way.

Although strangers to me, I hope both men may rest in peace, and my sorrow and understanding is extended to the families involved.
Peter R-B

[luoto]

Callous?? Where.

Of course it is a sad occasion but I don't think you need to append the 'standard expression of sorrow' to every bloody comment. Such public wearing of grief is like Diana-syndrome.

Of course the loss is tragic for the deceased family and friends. It will have a knock-on "there for the grace of god go I " for fellow pilots and those who regularly ride in the LHS as well.

But is there anything callous in questioning whether, and then why, could a certain type of craft be possibly any more likely to have a crash or perceived to be such?

In my case, since my SO is wishing to undertake training into these things, I'd rather have as much knowledge to pass on since if there is a difference between "brand a" and "brand b" where both brands are of comparable spec, price, range etc it makes sense to see. It could be a CRM issue on a given craft but I don't know... hence the question.

I'd rather try and reduce the risk than arrange a funeral (or have someone arranging it, if I'm in the LHS).

What's so wrong with that?

Or am I just being cranky this Sunday morning where my back hurts like ******* and I could do with going back to bed...

[BRL]

But is there anything callous in questioning whether, and then why, could a certain type of craft be possibly any more likely to have a crash or perceived to be such?

There is nothing callous about asking the question, this is just not the time or place to do it. I suggest you would get a better response if you posted a new thread on the safety of R22's.

My condolenses to the families involved.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Iuoto,

Your first post, indicated no feelings at all for a fellow avaitors demise, it may have been pilot error, it may have been aircraft problem, it could have been wx but less than 18 hours after the incident it is crass callousness to start a debate on the safety of brand X against brand Y using the accident as the ignition for your debate.

And as for the Diana syndrome, Get real, I am saddened by the death of any avaitor or px!

[luoto]

I don't consider my English to be that bad, but maybe there is a fault with your comprehension.


"Ignition" is a bit strong. "Prompted by.." is certainly quite true.

[Heliport]

luoto
I don't think you meant to be callous but, as a few people have pointed out, we find it preferable to separate discussions about a specific accident from general discussions about accidents involving any particular type.
In contrast, your later remark "I don't think you need to append the 'standard expression of sorrow' to every bloody comment. Such public wearing of grief is like Diana-syndrome." was not only callous but rude.

It is extremely common for pilots on these forums to add what you describe dismissively as "the standard expression of sorrow" when a fellow pilot is killed. The form such expressions take may be fairly short and "standard", but they are no less sincere for that.
As expressions of sympathy for those whose lives have been shattered by the loss of a loved one appear to irritate you, I suggest you don't open any topic where the title mentions a recent crash.


My sympathy to the families and friends of those who died.

Heliport
Rotorheads Moderator


[Edit]
VFRpb
Please resist the temptation to respond to his latest rudeness.

[luoto]

Maybe this is a cultural thing. I don't know. There is nothing wrong with showing compassion for a fellow professional but surely it doesn't have to be appended in front of every message. It comes over as a bit like "I'm not a racist but.." to some minds.

Naturally, since this culture thing is different I need to accept and recognise it and accordingly I apologise for any unplanned slur that may have been caused as that was not the intention.

[EjectEject]

To stop too much speculation, weather was reported as 1/8 or NSW. Whatever happend is reported to have happen as a/c was in normal transit flight.:(

[What-ho Squiffy!]

If I buy the farm, and manage to check out PPrune from the "other side", I would be gratified to see messages of condolence, and/or understanding with regard to my accident.

I would also suggest that friends or relatives of anybody killed in an accident would like to see some compassion in a forum like this, especially so soon after the event. Aviation, albeit a worldwide occupation, still seems like a community and it is good to see that people have feelings.

[SASless]

The Robbie questions have been ongoing for as long as I have been reading PPRune.....this crash just adds fuel to the fires of controversy. Unless you have a financial interest in the reputation of that particular brand of flying sausage maker....then maybe you shouldn't be so sensitive to the issue.

Robbies do not have a good reputation. There must be a reason there are special factory courses designed to train pilots to deal with some very interesting characteristics of that aircraft. We had a similar thing in the US Army for Instructors flying the TH-55A....Hughes 269 and its great desire to tuck and dive into the ground during initiation of autorotations...particularly if the wrong pedal was pushed by the student.

Sometimes reality is a harsh thing.....and the reality of winding up as a bloody mess (American usage here) in some farmer's hay field while flying a Robbie seems more likely than other helicopters.

I also agree....condolences should be delivered personally or at least directly to the next of kin and friends.....not via some public forum like this.

AS to resting in peace....that was decided by the individual's actions, beliefs, and standing with his particular maker at the time of his arrival at the Pearly Gates.....I just hope they got their just desserts....only they will know if that is the case.

[widgeon]

Last statement about likeylyhood of dying in a Robbo is similar to logic that most fatal car accidents are caused by white male drivers therefore white female drivers are safer drivers than white males . Simple fact is you are more likely to have an accident because you are more likely to be flying one ( not you personally but an average helicopter pilot) .

[Heliport]

SASless

It's a pity you didn't think the 'R22 Accident Analysis' thread (started today) was the more appropriate thread on which to make your comments.
Those of us who've been military or air display pilots have ususally lost so many friends that we've become used to facing the harsh 'reality'. The PPL flying world is very different. People are more sensitive - and not because they have a financial interest in the reputation of that particular brand of aircraft.
You obviously think it odd, but many bereaved families have found comfort in messages of condolence posted on PPRuNe, whether by people who knew the pilot, or simply felow aviators.
I know of one personally (a friend killed in a Spitfire crash) and, only a few months ago, the daughter of a professional helicopter pilot registered simply to post a message of thanks on this forum.

If my information is correct, this pilot was a 21 year old PPL. I agree the 'reality' is of their son "winding up as a bloody mess in some farmer's hay field", but I'm sure the parents wouldn't want to read it described quite so graphically - any more than the family of the older man who was the passenger.

I don't think this thread is going to be one which anybody who knows them will be drawing to their attention. If there was any doubt before, there certainly isn't now.

Heliport
Moderator

[EjectEject]

SASless

I think you have taken "Rotorheads" to the lowest point. Your last Para. - well, what could we say or as Heliport has stated - what would any relatives think?

Having had experience of these types of incidents both military and civil, the Mil world attitude is generally sad, but lets get on with life. The civil world is different.

Yesterday I arrived 20 mins after the accident as one of many to try to render asistance. Sadly in vain. Over 25 years, its still not nice to stand next to a/c and occupants at these incidents.

Like Heliport, I too have experienced relatives using different avenues to help them deal with a loss and "move on". Strange as you seem to find it that way. You certainly have removed that opportunity due to your posting.

The aviation world needs support from all quarters - always, even from those left behind after such a tragic event. You may not know them - but you could have demonstrated some respect.

[What-ho Squiffy!]

Geez mate, what were you thinking when you sat down to write that post? :mad:

[virgin]

SASless
I normally enjoy reading what you write, but your post following these deaths is probably the most callous I've ever read on Pprune.

[Old cynic]

Calm guys. All accidents are tragic and our collective condolences must, as always, go to those families directly affected. Of course as proffessionals we would all like to establish cause because we can only go forward with that knowledge. But it doesn't help anything to start squabbling in public.

[The Nr Fairy]

Funny how the world works.

I came into work this morning, to be asked if I'd heard about the fatal helicopter crash in Warwickshire over the weekend. Turns out the passenger was the ex-boss of a colleague of mine.

It also turns out the pilot was the passenger's future son-in-law. Forget how you think about the loss of two lives in a pastime which you follow either for fun or for a living, there is one person who's now lost both a father and a fiance in the same stroke as well as all the other people touched by the deaths of two people.

If you don't feel some empathy or compassion for all the relatives left behind who will be grieving, then maybe you should think before clicking on "Submit".

[luoto]

"Latest" local media coverage on the incident. Doesn't really add a lot that's not known except the pilot tried to avoid the major road.
Go2Coventry (http://iccoventry.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/page.cfm?objectid=12035006&method=full&siteid=50003)

[ppheli]

BBC report at http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_2130000/2130027.stm names the pilot as Peter Clarke, 24 and the passenger as Aaron Jones, 56

[The Nr Fairy]

The accident report relating to this accident has been released, and is on the AAIB web site (http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_avsafety/documents/page/dft_avsafety_026168.hcsp).

[Head Turner]

The design of the R22 in particular is not very pilot friendly but it's a 'price reduced way of flying' and soooooo those intent on flying these machines must be taught how to fly these machines in the safest way possible. The big problem here is that the R22 has very little 'forgiveness factor' and any slight error can end in total distress.
The R22 was not constructed as a training helicopter BUT due to economies, training schools were forced to adopt them in preference to better and more forgiving models.
The R22 does a good job in the hands of a properly trained and regularly re-trained pilots flying in SUITABLE weather conditions.
Slightly trained and under-supervised low hour pilots are at tremendous risk of attending an accident.
They are in my opinion NOT the helicopter of choice to fly around UK, or anywhere off an airfield. Had it the fumble factor of many of it's competitors then maybe I would venture to reccommend it's cost virtues.

[StevieTerrier]

Have just looked at the accident report, and it states that the pilot had clocked 8 hours in the last two years, and only 50 minutes flying in the previous 90 days before the crash.

I assume (hope) that doesnt include the 2 x 25 minute flights he undertook just before the fatal flight? Either way, I'm not so sure about the wisdom of taking your loved ones for a pleasure flight in one of the world's most unforgiving helicopters with that very low level of currency.

Up here we require that all pilots wanting to self-fly go up at least once a month, otherwise they have to take a check ride with an Instructor. Is this the norm? What requirements do you self-flyers out there have to do to get your hands on a local Robbie?