Crew Complement

[Dragon69]

At least no more fighting for sectors.

[betpump5]

You have to give it to the Spin Doctors that work with these clowns like the GMO.

Who is he trying to fool with his "3 pilots is the industry standard to/from Europe".

Yes MH, CN and 2 FOs. Muppet

[airplaneridesrfun]

4 pilots is the standard to North America. 2 CN's and 2 FO's.

[Dragon69]

And this fits into CX's 'Safety is our Number 1 Priority'
how exactly?

It's no longer about "safety is our no.1 priority" but all about "managing safety". Essentially saying that with every new policy,
Ie fuel policy, crew Complement, etc, they will maximize profit at the expense of safety.

[bellcrank88]

Yeah Mark, just tell us that it is a good idea as there will be less fighting for sectors and all will be good. Great idea.

How did they get you to attach your name to that drivel?

[betpump5]

How did they get you to attach your name to that drivel?

$$$$

You had to ask....

[jumbobelle]

ASRFs ASRFs ASRFs. They're auditable and evidence in your favour.

[goathead]

Ultimately the HKCAD will be held accountable. That's what worries me, muppets in charge of MH types, must be some sort of backroom deal going on.

[Scoreboard]

Hull Loss incoming....

[EFIS Check]

Is there no end to this .... ?!


I would have loved to be a fly on the wall when they sat in a big "Asian circle" and talked each other into this being a good idea/ an acceptable risk/ a cost justified by the saving. There is no way a single person signed this off.


It is not the individual cut, it is the sum of the cuts that will cause the problem. So don't expect the law of action and consequence to apply ..... but it will.


It makes a mockery of all the bull**** rhetoric they feed us. What little respect I had left for the L3-drivers, has pretty much gone.

[BlunderBus]

I wonder why folks think only a single hull loss will occur?

[Cpt. Underpants]

Fiddling while Rome burns...

[jetstreamrider]

Can someone explain how an RQ flying with an SO and then a Capt flying with an SO is a safety hazard? Of course we presume that both the FO and the Capt don't feel like they are flying single pilot and can't take controlled rest when they do this. Having said that...not every SO is as useless as some may otherwise think. Don't get offended...just looking for a bit of substance to the hull loss argument.

[mngmt mole]

Ah, well then, that's reassuring: "not every SO is as useless as some may otherwise think" !

[AB335]

I bet next step will be creation of RQ'SO, follow by (Base/Senior) Training SO :}

[mngmt mole]

tick, tock, tick, tock...

[jetstreamrider]

Well I hear some are better than others...Good luck with those DEFOs.

[sorvad]

jetstreamrider

Because at the end of every single flight that is operated with this crew complement, one of the two sitting in the seat at the end will for the most part have been awake for the whole of their body clock night time .....presumably the FO unless the Captain has been particularly benevolent with the rest or they are from different base areas. And instead of being able to slope off for forty winks and let a well rested FO take over they'll have to sit there for the landing. Hull loss aside, this is far more of a threat to flight safety than 3 crew ever was....at least with 3 crew, the 2 in the seats for the last bit should have had a modicum of rest.

[jetstreamrider]

Point taken..thanks for clarifying.

[betpump5]

Ultimately the HKCAD will be held accountable. That's what worries me, muppets in charge of MH types, must be some sort of backroom deal going on.


CX have pulling this dodgy sh!t for years. Yet they always get away with it. Therefore, HKCAD is on the CX payroll, probably for the last decade.

[mngmt mole]

So, less FO's needed, and much longer time as SO. Yes, another brilliant move to improve moral amongst the pilot group. :/

[Average Fool]

$afety will always take priority

[mngmt mole]

Anyone who is under 45 yrs of age and is not looking at every opportunity to leave is a fool. There has never been a year in the past 25 where harm has not been done to the career aspirations of professional pilots. If you stay, you are guaranteeing a career of frustration, misery and eventual bitter anger. You will also put your families through the same upset and unhappiness. There are far better companies and far better parts of the world to focus your efforts on.

[oriental flyer]

3 man to or from Europe is fine if it's a daylight flight for the crew both ways.
But throw in a night flight both ways ,with a midnight or later departure from HK and a possible difficult winter approach in Europe things start to get interesting .
Even that could possibly be managed if the crews weren't operating very close to 100 hours every month , and everyone was getting 4-5 days off before and after the flight , accumulated fatigue will become a major factor
To say nothing of the lack of flexibility of crews should someone go sick . Somehow I suspect that a number of pilots will call sick with fatigue .
What will happen should Guanghou create delays for all traffic departing HK Europe bound , ?
File as many AsRFs as you can

[pill]

So 3 man crew, you get 4 hours rest each to Europe. 2 SO's you get 6 hours rest.
This has got to be a win from where we were headed.
The pilot group have made their contribution to the "Time to win (leave)" bull**** program and seen to have made a consession.
Captain does the hard body clock sector, takes the best rest, FO does the easier one and picks his rest. Just needs some of our more precious left chair super heros to understand this, and it should work OK.
Take your wins where you find them. I sometimes think you lot would complain if you were given bigger dicks.
If your an SO, my apologies for once again thinking it is OK to solve my problems at the expense of those junior to me or not yet joined, sadly it is the Cathay way, and has been from a ways before my 2 decades here started. Maybe your best move is to work
toward your own "Time to leave" program.

[McPhisto]

How about FA SOs? Surely that will also help safety and save some $$$.

[Liam Gallagher]

You are missing the point.

This is not a debate about 4 man v 3 man or even rest achieved. It's not even a debate about overall experience levels on the flight deck, or even the demographics of the pilot group, which will see an enlarged group of SOs waiting for upgrade to fewer FO positions.

The guts of the safety debate is we will invariably have someone sitting in the operating seat during the critical approach/landing phase who has not had the opportunity to sleep during anything like their optimal sleep window and they have probably encountered the exact same problem 48 hours earlier. In fact, they will probably have a career based on it!!!

Example, the JNB leaves around midnight HK time. The FO will envariably work first and will get a sleep opportunity around 7am body clock. He will then be back in the seat around 1300 body clock having not slept much. I would suggest that's not the real problem. The real problem comes the next day when he returns to HK. He will be expected to go from the bright sunshine of Africa and get 5 hours sleep and then sit in the seat (in the dark) all the way to the gate to HK. He will make the approach intomHK during his WOCL having had only one sleep opportunity during his normal sleep window in 4 days.

If Clockwork found the 3 man 256/254 unacceptable, then I cannot see how they will find this acceptable. That of course assumes they will ever be involved or see any data.

Call me a cynical old fading rockstar, but I wouid wager JNB and LGW were chosen because they are heavily requested and the company anticipates few complaints, until it all goes wrong one day.....

[Dragon69]

What you don't seem to get Pill , is that CX is pushing FOs to become RQ when they haven't even acquired the required experience level yet. So many times I fly with RQ FOs around the region, and clearly some can't even deviate around weather safely. And these are the same ones that will be sitting with brand new SOs. If you're happy playing Russian Roulette then go ahead and defend this new change.

[raven11]

You are spot on Dragon 69.

Pill...you on the other hand should wind in your neck. If anyone here is behaving like a hero it's you. This has nothing to do with the size of one's manhood. If you had any real flying time under your belt this would be obvious to you....and spare me the "you have tons of experience" line. You and I both know you don't.

Many SO's have good future potential....but this is another degradation in cockpit experience levels for the sole purpose of cutting costs.

A single crewmember on the flight deck who has only 200 hours of basic...very, very basic....stick time is already a risk. Now there will be two crew with zero experience. I know I won't be resting easy....

[TurningFinalRWY36]

7-8 years to upgrade for SO's now? Very big financial blow to the guys and gals out there initially being told upgrade < 3 years

[Natca]

The p2x is limited to 5 years

[TurningFinalRWY36]

So what happens if an SO has not been upgraded after 5 years?

[Captain Dart]

A boozy lunch with the CAD will sort that out.

[jetstreamrider]

I guess the only way to fight back is for those crew affected to be bothered to submit an ASR-F for every sector this takes place. Will this happen? How often to guys bother when controlled rest has to be taken? Not every time I suspect! :zzz:

[jumbobelle]

Surely with this latest attack it's time for the HKAOA to revoke support for LOSA volunteers. Not that it ever should have been given in the first place!

No LOSA = no evidence of what's really going on in the cockpit. It's in our interests.

[Avinthenews]

No LOSA means CX insurance premium goes up $$$.

It's in CX interest to make it happen, they don't have to use CX crew.

[Xwindldg]

Captain Dart

"A boozy lunch with the CAD will sort that out"

Haha good one

[Bangaluru]

The guts of the safety debate is we will invariably have someone sitting in the operating seat during the critical approach/landing phase who has not had the opportunity to sleep during anything like their optimal sleep window and they have probably encountered the exact same problem 48 hours earlier. In fact, they will probably have a career based on it!!!

The only way this is different from India is that on flights landing from India neither of the people in the operating seats have "had the opportunity to sleep during anything like their optimal sleep window".

If this is the guts of the argument, the argument is specious.

[GTC58]

You guys read the NTC all wrong. The 2 SO's are sitting together in cruise and as such provide the Captain and RQ with a 8 hour rest opportunity. Right ....... just kidding

[The FUB]

Cathay now to employ dogs.

The dog and the SO fly together, the SO is there to feed the dog and the dog is there to bite the SO if he/she touches anything.

[raven11]

Pill...experience noted, I apologize. Your initial post gave me the wrong impression (I was still processing the shock of this policy change). I totally agree with your last post.

Actually, after some thought, I think I would prefer an experienced 3-man crew (Capt, RQ FO, FO) to a 4-man (Capt, RQ FO, green SO, green SO). Sure, you'll get less in-flight rest, but at least both guys in the cockpit would have some time under their belts...you are paid more, and you get more rest at destination.

Goes to show what happens when rostering practices are solely amendable by the company....makes me wonder what other future changes might be on their drawing board. All while insisting that whatever they do it will be preceded by a full operational and corporate risk assessment and that safety is their first priority.:ugh:

[AQIS Boigu]

If safety were our priority our crew compliment would be 2 Cpts and 2 FOs.

(like at EK - for the managers continuously quoting what the competition does)

[oriental flyer]

They only quote what the other airlines are doing when it works in their favour .
Agreed that the safest option is 2 Capt's 2 FO's

[Farman Biplane]

Problem: WingBrusher SO's are upgrading, getting some P1 time in log book, becoming employable elsewhere and leaving.

Solution: Do not upgrade them, keep them as SO longer, no P1 time, not employable elsewhere, stay in the crib at CX. Thousands of applicants on recruitment books to become new WingBrushers. Overall cost per pilot reduces.

Problem solved! HPETTW

[Brown Nose]

So now we can have 2 x 200 hour super heroes and a cat D completely incompetent RQ.
Welcome to single pilot ULH ops

[raven11]

It's ok brown nose there was a complete operational and corporate risk assessment carried out. Albeit no FRMSC fatigue risk management consultation....but it wasn't deemed necessary....

[kenfoggo]

The new position of "FOP - Risk Manager" which was created under the new corporate restructure was filled recently by a Pilot from the Boeing Fleet Office. His first act in this new role , apparently, was to approve this erosion of flight safety margins. Well Done!

[GANKER]

You guys are all worried about the new crew compliment, when in fact you should be focusing on the real elephant in the room for safety, "Removal of the 2nd clipboard"
Where am I supposed to put the notams? they cant just float around the cockpit willy nilly can they?. How am I going to rip a straight line of paper off the ACARS to seperate weather from clearances and the like? Removed due to cost? where do you buy these things? Why cant you just put it down to cost of doing business and hide it in fuel hedging or something, blame KA or even the pilots and replace the one and only thing that has been consistent in this company , the reliable "CLIPBOARD."

[Average Fool]

The "Risk Management" is financial risk, not flight safety,

They have deemed this low risk to the finances.

[goathead]

We should all be thankful their is enough trainers to continue training the new SO's because if there wasn't its possible we would be doing this 3 man so next time you see a trainer giver him/her a pat on the back and tell them they are doing a great job keeping this shambles on the rd!

[Farman Biplane]

Don't believe the hype!
If times were really tough they would have banned ID travellers from receiving/using the amenities kits!

[Captain Dart]

They've cut back on cockpit clipboards, though.

[Cpt. Underpants]

We should all be thankful their is enough trainers to continue training the new SO's because if there wasn't its possible we would be doing this 3 man so next time you see a trainer giver him/her a pat on the back and tell them they are doing a great job keeping this shambles on the rd!

Wrong. This change in the crew complement is a direct response to the company's INABILITY to train and upgrade S/O's, JF/O's etc. The increasing number of resignations of trainers and CX's inability to fill the slots is a real crisis. This is their reaction.

[Farman Biplane]

Why would a line captain allow the RQFO to do the takeoff or landing on these pairings?
There are plenty of regional sectors on all fleets where the FO can achieve recency requirements. If necessary they can fly with a training captain on these long haul pairings to build their "experience"?
A line captain is there to ensure safe and efficient operations in the airline, not facilitate the training/experience/maintenance of the RQFO recency.
Let management manage recency.

[betpump5]

...and endorse volunteering.

[OK4Wire]

A line captain is there to ensure safe and efficient operations in the airline, not facilitate the training/experience/maintenance of the RQFO recency.
Let management manage recency.

Well said.

[CXKA]

Plenty of regional sector for a 777 RQ, I don't think so.

[Zapp_Brannigan]

This, after a recent report of a new SO flying into a CB while the RQ was taking a controlled rest.

If our "leaders" ' priority is safety (and even if it is money saving), they should not allow this.

Or perhaps they considered that as stuff ups happened before, the new crew complement is not "less safe" than before.

[jumbobelle]

Why would a line captain allow the RQFO to do the takeoff or landing on these pairings?
There are plenty of regional sectors on all fleets where the FO can achieve recency requirements. If necessary they can fly with a training captain on these long haul pairings to build their "experience"?
A line captain is there to ensure safe and efficient operations in the airline, not facilitate the training/experience/maintenance of the RQFO recency.
Let management manage recency.

I agree why would you, though bear in mind non-HKG based pilots rarely get regional sectors so recency is even more of a problem with this.

[Natca]

...and endorse volunteering.

And sos volunteering for psuedo training aswell. Read the aoa board and youll see they want so volunteers to run the 350 ipt for everyone.

[Arfur Dent]

"Our number one priority is making money for ourselves"
"Somewhere down the list of "Priorities" is Safety but we mostly leave that up to the pilots who seem to cope quite well with almost every insult and difficulty we put in their way"
"Impressive really because in the briefing to Senior Executives, we always try to emphasise what a thick bunch of walkovers the Pilots are" " Amazing how well they do".
Come on Swire - tell the bloody truth for a change!

[Oasis]

Great, this is making my job a lot harder.
Now every time we land, one of the front seat pilots will be completely tired, be it the Captain or the Fo,

Not good at all. I will also miss the occasional suggestions from the back, unless the So's become a bit more vocal.

Maybe this is what all that talk about increased responsibility was all about a few weeks back.

[Trafalgar]

This airline is done. Put a fork in it. :mad:

[ACMS]

Yep never once has the RQ ever been known to do a sector on a long haul........:eek:

Yes it happens a lot already, otherwise a hell of a lot of RQ's would never get a sector.

The loss of experience on the flight deck is the main concern as is the slower upgrade times for SO's, it's yet another imposed degradation to us all. Not to mention the loss of assistance to the CN at the coal face.

[GICASI2]

The CDR signs for the jet and is responsible for it and all the occupants until everyone is off and in the terminal. Therefore, with 2 SOs and a knackered RQFO, he should be doing the landing. If he assesses that the FO is not fit for purpose (too tired) he should declare an emergency as the 2 SOs are not licensed below 20K ft and, therefore, technically the flight is now single pilot. A minimum of an MOR and an ASRF would be required, in addition to the investigation under ICAO ANNEX 13. How long before the second FO would be reinstated?

[BlunderBus]

I have flown with a young lady RQ who quite happily admitted that she hasn't HAND flown ANY commercial aircraft above 1000'...I :mad: you not.

[betpump5]

Ummm whilst I get the point your making, how many have? 15 Miles out at 4500 on the Loc or 3 miles out at 900', again in a straight line is still not hand flying in my book.

Or maybe that is the point your making. Either way the whole place stinks.

[GICASI2]

Especially with FDs on - a video game and not flying!

[GICASI2]

The corollary is that very few of the people I fly with fully understand the automatics because they want to 'hand fly' - which results in little or no mode selection directions! And when they do try, their ability (or lack of) to multitask shows through!

[Average Fool]

Well that should be remedied now that the F/Os will get more exposure!

[crwkunt roll]

Plenty of regional sector for a 777 RQ, I don't think so.
Well, apparently now there's plenty to go round.

[Flex88]

Yep,,, now 6 or 7 years as SO before upgrade and a similar bump for FO to Capt.

"Time to Win" , errrr, just not for you.. :sad:

[Trafalgar]

So, let me get this straight: for someone with a bit of experience, you could be a Captain at HKE in less than half the time you will spend as a SO in CX? Ok, that becomes a tough decision.

[Liam Gallagher]

Maybe the Check & Trainers could send another letter......

[Steve the Pirate]

Now that's funny :D

[raven11]

Or, maybe 100 line pilots can try writing a letter and attaching their names to it.

Go for it Liam and Steve....I mean, seriously, go for it. My name was on the trainers letter.

Put your pens to paper....

[DropKnee]

I will happily sign such a letter. The FO in this situation will be unsafe. A few maydays because of
pilot incapacitation should do the trick. Especially in good ole America.

[Steve the Pirate]

Or, maybe 100 line pilots can try writing a letter and attaching their names to it.

Go for it Liam and Steve....I mean, seriously, go for it. My name was on the trainers letter.

Put your pens to paper....

To what end? Unless you're prepared to take some sort of action when nothing happens as a result of your protest then all you're doing is shouting at windmills.

Whilst I applaud the initiative of those trainers who signed the letter, how many of them resigned when nothing came of it? Few, if any I suspect. To those who remained, I don't think you can have it both ways, that is, complain about something that you vehemently disagree with and then continue to support the activities that you complained about. I think the phrase is, "Put your money where your mouth is"

[ACMS]

"incompasitation". :D

Sounds horrible..........:sad:

Seriously?

So you've never once taken a sector as RQ? Really?

[DropKnee]

Fixed it, dam spell check!

[Steve the Pirate]

Not that I'm in favour of this change but wouldn't the same problem occur with the current CN, RQ, FO, SO complement if the RQ went sick at an outport? Obviously a different story if both FOs are RQ.

[Steve the Pirate]

Agreed but don't you think that will have been part of the risk assessment? I assume there are statistics on the number of times pilots go sick at outports although, to be fair, those statistics will be based on the current, rather than proposed crewing.

[Steve the Pirate]

Oh, I got before but ACMS has made a valid point that many RQs get sectors currently, so the inevitable question might be, what's changed? Surely those stats will be available too? Of course, I realise that there's a difference between a one-off and something that might become the norm in terms of the physiological effects.

[cxorcist]

# Make Cathay Great Again

... far less chance of that than for America imo.

[BlunderBus]

So what do non RQ first officers do?

[flyhardmo]

Oh, I got before but ACMS has made a valid point that many RQs get sectors currently, so the inevitable question might be, what's changed?

The biggest change is that of a tired RQ gets a sector, you have an F/O in the back that is way more familiar with the operation than an S/O. It is that extra pair of eyes and although stuff ups still happen with the current crew compliment, they will get worse. CX seems to think it's a good idea to manually line up those holes in the cheese.

[BusyB]

It was just as bad with non RQ FO's plus an SO. I recall often refusing to do the ldg because too fatigued from wrong rest. T and B's for going out of recency!

[BusyB]

Rubbish, If you don't know what rest (and how much) you will get you can't make that judgement at report.

[BlunderBus]

Arrived off long haul trip then min rest ..Up at 4.30am for 6am PC sim then STC calls crew control at end of debrief and given a long haul flight in 12 hours time at 11pm....really? Who else does that? Why bother with a roster?

[betpump5]

Why bother with a roster?


Wasn't that one of AT's first questions when she became DFO?

[boxjockey]

Arrived off long haul trip then min rest ..Up at 4.30am for 6am PC sim then STC calls crew control at end of debrief and given a long haul flight in 12 hours time at 11pm....really? Who else does that? Why bother with a roster?

Did you get 1 in 7?

[ACMS]

ASR F......

[Trafalgar]

(cough)...pick up phone...(cough)....so sorry...(cough)....i'll be there when i'm rested and don't feel like death....(cough). What is WRONG with us? :ugh:

[rhoshamboe]

Acknowledged thank you... Ring ring, Hello CC? Reporting unfit due fatigue...
Acknowledged thank you... Ring ring, Hello CC? Reporting unfit due fatigue...
Acknowledged thank you... Ring ring, Hello CC? Reporting unfit due fatigue...
Acknowledged thank you... Ring ring, Hello CC? Reporting unfit due fatigue...
Acknowledged thank you... Ring ring, Hello CC? Reporting unfit due fatigue...
Acknowledged thank you... Ring ring, Hello CC? Reporting unfit due fatigue...
Acknowledged thank you... Ring ring, Hello CC? Reporting unfit due fatigue...

How many times till they get the message? FFS don't let them take the piss.

[Pucka]

Not this one...if I can't give 100% due either to fatigue, health or a dose of the aztecs...then I have a cockpit free day...enough.

[Life well tired]

The NTC has been extended and the company plan to increase the number of flights where 2 S/Os are rostered. Unbelievably there have been relatively few ASR(F)s submitted by crews who have operated these trips. The ASR(F)s are the only way we can fight this.

S/Os, please, if the guy sitting next to you takes controlled rest, urge him or her to submit an ASR(F). You will be RQ soon enough, so this is your future that you are protecting.

F/Os, don't risk your licence or reputation doing sectors/landings when you are fatigued. Missed RT calls, operational mistakes or controlled rest, then file an ASR(F).

Capts, please encourage crews submit ASR(F)s for any of the above.

[OK4Wire]

And don't forget, Australian-based Captains are forbidden to operate with 2 SOs.

[Farman Biplane]

Or that the 3 man London’s were highly requested because of the long layover! Give many of them a gun and they would be able to shoot themselves in both feet.

[arse]

And don't forget, Australian-based Captains are forbidden to operate with 2 SOs.

Interesting. More info, please. Regulation? Only within AUS. When operating with a specific ATPL?

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Must be an eba thing for CX. QF can use 2 SO

[AtoBsafely]

Correct.

Bear in mind that there are probably 500 pilots at CX who don’t even meet the minimum experience required by QF, let alone be competitive for the position. And second officers at QF who earn almost as much as a CX captain.

[broadband circuit]

Or that the 3 man London’s were highly requested because of the long layover!

Or that the 3 man London’s were highly requested because people wanted the opportunity to pound in feedback that it was a stupid idea.

[Oasis]

Correct.

Bear in mind that there are probably 500 pilots at CX who don’t even meet the minimum experience required by QF, let alone be competitive for the position. And second officers at QF who earn almost as much as a CX captain.

Do you have a reference or proof for any of this?

[Sea Eggs]

Cathay knows how to complicate things. How about if we get rid of some of these stupid ranks? S/O, JFO, FO, SFO, RQ, CN, etc.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Arrived off long haul trip then min rest ..Up at 4.30am for 6am PC sim then STC calls crew control at end of debrief and given a long haul flight in 12 hours time at 11pm....really? Who else does that? Why bother with a roster?

Pretty crap for planning rest but if you get up at 0430 you should be ready for a pre flight nap...