Should I vote ".For" the Rule Change?

[Liam Gallagher]

I guess I could ask this on the HKAOA forums, but I'd like to tap into the collective wisdom on pprune. Yep, I'm that bored.

Which way shouid I vote? Shouid I vote "for" the motion and allow the GC (most of whom I don't know) to end negotiations and lead me into a fight that I may or may not agree with? Or should I vote "against" and ensure that before the GC starts talking fight, I get the chance to accept whatever old pish the company has served up?

All the stuff about renaming the positions on the GC sounds like "Time to Win" and I would rather not waste bandwidth discussing that pseudo management-babble. It's the removal of the right to vote before going to the fightpath that interests me.

So what's the advice of the wise old brasso fuelled soaks on pprune?

[The Visionary]

They will never acquiesce to us Liam, EVER! They will bust it up or sell it whole or in pieces. AHK is where the freighter op is going and you can go or be made redundant. I was wondering why so many freighter captains are being trained, and FOs. It won't work out well for us no matter.

The only thing you should sign is a resignation letter. This place just isn't worth it any more. The stress and drama and lies this company perpetuates is sick. They are the most A moral and corrupt people I have ever seen. Like a bad marriage, sometimes love just ain't enough. You move on.

I think an A-Bomb is about to be dropped on all of us. You can hear that whistling sound!
I want to make it clear again, they don't care. They just sacked 600+ people ad did not bat an eyelash. You think they give a damn about us. Rostering alone should tell you what they think.

RUN FORREST RUN!!!!

[Trafalgar]

The resignation averages are now starting to ramp upwards. Those that hesitate end up being junior to those that made the decision earlier. There is no future here for the younger pilots. Well, not one that you would want to endure. Get out now while the rest of the industry is growing and offering their pilots ever improving conditions. This company has a 20+ year history of lies, threats and ever reducing conditions. Not worth a single day of your careers.

[Sam Ting Wong]

“People who have visions should go to see their doctor”

H.Kissinger

[Sam Ting Wong]

Trafalgar,

how many did resign this year?

And how many last year, the year before etc?

PS I flew with an Australian S/O the other day. Chose Cathay over Quantas, more money, faster career.

You guys lost complete touch with reality.

[Average Fool]

PS I flew with an Australian S/O the other day. Chose Cathay over Quantas, more money, faster career.

Cathay prays on these guys. Too inexperienced to know what will make for a good career. No offense to them. We were all there once.

Think long and hard about what you want in the future. Giving up your few years of "seniority" at CX is nothing.

Don't look at the captain you fly with and think "that will be me one day"

It won't

There are guys in their 40s leaving with over a decade in.

What does that tell you?

[Sam Ting Wong]

Wrong. Only very few people leave Cathay actually.

[CXKA]

QUANTAS?? STW your aviation experience must match your spelling ability! Am interested in what the U stands for? Google QANTAS and learn something. People are leaving you just don't hear it from the company, check the AOA monthly update....if you are a member of course!

[Sam Ting Wong]

Ok, spelling bees, QANTAS.

Happy now?

People resigning?

I am a AOA member, so I know people do not leave. As you do.

[CXKA]

Joiners from early to mid 2011 -

2 x Thomas Cook
1 x Virgin Atlantic
2 x ANZ
1 x EZ
1 x Jet2 (plus 2 Senior Captains)
1 x HKE
1 x Qatar
1 x QANTAS

And thats just the ones I have heard about over a 6 to 9 month joining period.

Apparently 7+ in the hold pool at BA.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Exactly!

We have what, 3500 pilots?

You are talking about 0.something percent per year.

[Average Fool]

Mr Ting Wong,

I never claimed to have the #s. I do not. The company does, ask them. But it is a FACT people are resigning for employment elsewhere.

[boxjockey]

Apparently 7+ in the hold pool at BA.

Try 30!! I just flew with an FO who is leaving this fall. Time to get in touch with reality. I'm on the slow boat out of China. Just vacuuming the last of the money out of "me old contract"!!!

box

[Sam Ting Wong]

Average Fool, what an appropriate name...

So just to clarify:

you don't know the numbers, but still you post people are leaving.

Don't you see the absurdity?

[Sam Ting Wong]

30 would be 0.8% and hence a very low attrition rate.

[boxjockey]

30 would be 0.8% and a very low attrition rate.

Yes, but that is just for BA!!

box

[Trafalgar]

STW, once again, evidence that you are either part of management, or a wannabe management candidate (can't you see that all your posts are either in support of management, or to undermine the pilots). To my point: the numbers aren't "large" in a numerical sense (although statistically becoming so). What they are is a flashing red alarm. The people leaving are the ones with experience. Senior Captains, experienced FO's. Obviously you seem fine with an airline left with nothing but cadet SO's and inexperienced FO's and Captains (by historic standards). Go ahead and convince yourself that there is 'no difference' in the standard of operation. We'll revisit this topic the day the inevitable headline is in the SCMP. Funny old thing, I imagine you'll be nowhere to be found that day.

[CXKA]

STW all those numbers I provided are from a 6 month joining period, which probably equates to between 5 to 10% of joiners at that time.

Pop along to the CAA test centre in KL and just see how many CX pilots are there doing their EASA ATPL's.

It must be hard to fly an approach with your head buried so far in the sand.

I am glad you enjoy the life at CX but the cold hard fact is that it's not that great for a lot of people and there are better options for the individual elsewhere. CX is quickly becoming a place to come and build wide body hours and then leave for a better fit.

Box am sat on the same boat!

[Sam Ting Wong]

Trafalgar, oh dear...

Firstly, I do not "undermine" pilots' rights by stressing the importance of the truth. You do.

Secondly, again, if you would have followed my advice the company would now have to pay millions more every month since January. You are unintentionally helping the company with your absurd claims. They have the real numbers, they know exactly who is leaving, and I am telling you: the numbers are very low.

Thirdly, about the upcoming pilot shortage, here is a post of you from a few years ago. Looks strangely familiar, doesn't it?

#6 (permalink)
Trafalgar's AvatarTrafalgar , 28th Dec 2013 22:12
Crap. The interesting thing is that the world over, there is a definite pilot shortage developing (pilots with experience....they can always get wannabe cadets). Slowly but surely the pay and benefits will increase. Within two or three years, many contract jobs will be better than CX. Give it time. In the meantime....I don't need a 'breastfeeding allowance'...!!

[Trafalgar]

Follow your advice...? It's all about the money to you isn't it? And yes, the way CX is going most contract jobs WILL be better paid than CX, with better benefits, lifestyles and career potential. That is why we are now seeing ever increasing numbers of resignations. Signing a short term contract that effectively sells out the future is hardly the way to stop that trend increasing.

[Sam Ting Wong]

CXKA,fact is the overall attrition rate is low.

What part don't you understand?

And even if the rate wiuld be higher, what difference does it make?

Every B scaler that leaves is a win for the company, not a loss.

Every C scaler can e replaced even easier.

Fact is: you guys overplayed your hand, the company called it. They will not give in, mark my words.

Now, thanks to guys like you, we are sitting ducks without a payrise and without HKPA improvements.

Who is actually undermining pilots rights??

[Sam Ting Wong]

No Trafalgar, I don't work at Cathay for the money. This is just a disguise.

My real intentions are actually to cure cancer, stop famines and achieve world peace.

Your statement confirms what I always assumed:

you and a few others are out there on a crusade. Its not about negotiating a contract anymore for you, you are full of anger and all you want is revenge, facts don't matter anymore.

[Trafalgar]

Well, after that rant I can see that debating you is pointless. I am very comfortable with CC, TB and the insistence on this company providing a legally binding, equitable contract. If they choose to not do so, then I will make my career decision accordingly. Nothing you have said in many months of posts has been anything other than denigrating of the majority of pilots in this airline, and/or supportive of management. Others can comment on what they conclude about that fact.

[betpump5]

On the subject of Resignations, what happened to yours STW? The post is still there on the other forum. Yet I'm still to see your name on the newsletter resignation list.

[Sam Ting Wong]

I am not Paul, dude.

And I am not resigning for the very same reason almost nobody else does. For the very same reason people still join, apply by the thousands.

Do I need to say it?

[mr did]

Paul's narcissistic ramblings seemed to have a point at least.

This guy however..

I suspect more of one of those communist party style plants trying to deflect discussion by posting inflammatory rubbish.

Or he just has mental issues.

[Trafalgar]

I hope Paul doesn't resign. I vehemently disagree with his attitude and approach, but I would rather argue from within than without. Besides, he's got the experience that I am worried CX is losing, and in spite of the frustration with his philosophy, he's a good guy and deserving of respect. Just a little bit nuts that's all... :) (and yes, many say the same of me!)

[Shot Nancy]

"dude".

Says it all really.

[Sam Ting Wong]

You are shooting the messenger.

I wish people would leave, I really do.

But they don't, this is a fact.

[Trafalgar]

No, they ARE leaving. THAT is the FACT.

[Dragon69]

STW, you're obviously too thick to comprehend what people are trying to tell you. You think you're being clever with your posts, but you're only looking like a gargantuan fool. Why don't you do some research and see how many resignations Cathay had 15, 10, 5 years ago compared to now. Why don't you then graph the results and see the obvious trend. If you still come back with your utter nonsense, then your maturity and intelligence is approaching that of a donkey.

What you fail to realize is that it's not just junior guys and gals leaving, it's also some very senior FOs and Captains that have left. These are people who are letting go decades of seniority in pursuit of something better. Many more are teetering on the edge including myself, and I've been here for over two decades and still have ways to go before my retirement. Show me one airline where you have that many senior crews throwing in the towel because they've had enough of the draconian style of management and working conditions.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Dragon,

where are the numbers to back up
your statement?

I look like a fool?

YOU make a claim, YOU have to show the data to proof it.

So, how many did resign this year?

How many last year, the year before, etc?

Of course the absolute number of people resigning is higher today than 10 or 15 years ago, the airline is twice as big now.

All that counts is the percentage.

I am here for more than a decade. I don't see a trend. There were always people leaving, every single year since I joined. I move up the list at a pretty constant rate. Does that make me thick in your opinion? I am a member ot the AOA, and what does that tell me? How many in each newsletter that left? One? Two? Three? 10 would be 0.3 %. 35 would be 1 %. Enough to force the company back to the table?

So, again and again, I want you to be right! I really do! But should I just take your word? And if I ask for data I am too "thick to comprehend"? Do you not see the absurdity of your insult? All I want from you are hard facts. And the best of all, you want ME to do the research? Really?
For YOUR claim?

You claim our attrition rate is higher than elsewhere.

Ok, how do you know that?
What are the numbers elsewhere?

Do you have any statistics from Emirates? qatar? Etihad? Korean?
Easyjet? Jetstar? Air Asia? Hong Kong Airlines?


Teetering at the brink of resigning?Really?
A penny for every pilot that " thinks about leaving". A penny!

ALL but ONE of the MAN guys will come to HKG. ALL BUT ONE.
Wake up!

PS Precisely because of these baseless claims you guys thought we have leverage enough to get a better deal. Precisely because of this hybris you rejected a contract that would safeguard us now until the hedging losses are gone and profits back. And look where we are now. Exactly where I TOLD YOU we would be. Remember last year when a lot of you said the Americans will leave in drones? And? I WAS RIGHT. They did not.

Our job is unique, we don't have an office, we live spread out over the globe, we spend hours with people we don't know. This is the perfect breeding ground for rumors. My aim is to bring some substance into these discussions, to force you guys to look at evidence rather than hearsay and flight deck gossip.

And I am the fool?

[bm330]

That's easy. Yes.

[Oval3Holer]

Sam Ting Wong, 4 guys from LAX quit in the past month to go to other airlines. That's 7.4% of the LAX-based F/Os.

This place is a dead end...

[Cpt. Underpants]

3 early retirements (lets call that quitting as well) off the YVR base in the last 3 weeks. All Captains, BTW

[GICASI2]

So the ex-MAN guys will end up flying for AHK. How's that for closing the circle?!

[oriental flyer]

STW , you stated some time ago that you were done with posting , yet here you still are , with your blinkered views that clearly mark you as management or a wanabe who is simply not prepared to listen to others points of view but continues to spew the party line

[Dragon69]

STW, the only thing left to say to you is, HEE-HAW HEE-HAW HEE-HAW....

[Sam Ting Wong]

So that is your "data".

"I know two or three guys that left"
Plus retirements, which were ALWAYS between 55-65 , are now suddenly counted as resignations. Now that is just silly,sorry.


Just because I want proof people are leaving doesn't mean I want people to stay, nor does it mean I think it is wise to stay. It also doesn't mean I like it here, nor do I claim people are happy. All I am
saying is: I don't believe we have significant resignations, and if you do then I would like to know how you come to that conclusion.

Take the emotions out of it and look at the data. Bevause that is precisely what is happening on the 9th floor. This is only about numbers, nothing else! It doesn't matter if you like it or not ( I certainly don't).

But I guess you will never understand the difference.

It is a fact that every B scaler is replaced by a C scaler and hence a financial win for the company, like it or not ( I don't like it).


Oriental, why is my view "blinkered". Is that your "argument"? Where is your data? I am willing to listen! I wish you could present the numbers, I really do! But in the end I fear you also just know a guy who knows a guy who seriously considers leaving..

Oval, 4 guys in LAX may be 7.5 % of the base, but they are still only 0.1% of the total. What significance overall have they?

Cpt Underpants, same for you. Your 3 guys are 0.09% of the total workforce.Plus they were not even proper resignations..

Dragon, just imagine we would publicly debate. I ask you for data of your claim, you make donkey sounds. Just picture this. Still you think in pprune it is ok. Why?

I understand many pilots have never been exposed to tertiary education, debating clubs in universities etc. Maybe discussions are also not that common in the military, makes sense. But at some point you guys really have to pull yourself together. I am talking of the absolute basics in every debate, you make a claim, you have the burden of proof. By definition, if your proof starts with " I heard/ I think/ I believe/ I estimate etc" it is not a proof. It just isn't.

[mr did]

Perfect English to broken dribble. Not very convincing (Dominic?).

I have moved up over 30 places in the last 12 months, and all (or most) of people leaving for QF, ANZ, BA etc are behind me. Estimate 80 to 90 total in the last year. Not the level of the EK debacle but we are getting close.

Also heard the DE FO stream has died up, people not even bothering to turn up for interviews. The word is out it would seem.

[Average Fool]

i think the company may be OK with it. At least in the sense that it's likely to shrink and any employee with any length of service is more costly than one without.

What a shame.

[boxjockey]

The future of CX is locally recruited cadets with a HK passport and few options in the future. If you look at the demographics of HKG and where a CX job puts you in earnings, without a degree I might add, it will always be regarded as a good career path for some locals. If you have 7M locals, then even if only .5% are interested you have enough to put "meat in the seats". While I think Paul is wrong about the number of resignation (I've moved up a LOT in the last year), he is right that the company doesn't really care. I fortunately have my ducks in a row and without a base will be out of here soon. It's unfortunate that this is what will become of the place that was my career goal more than 20 years ago. The key to a happy life is adaptability!!

box

[The Visionary]

I am not sure if you are with us or against us?? Your condescending tone, mostly aimed at your colleagues, is odd at best. Silly as it may seem, you grammar is poor and you could not even spell Qantas correctly, as well as many other mistakes. My point; Credibility! You see, if you just use your so called data, or just make your opinion, then fine, Attacking your own colleagues speaks volumes of someone like you. More like what our management does, speaking down to us as though we are idiots. You sound angry and bitter and I am willing to bet you have, at some point, sold yourself and your colleagues out in some way, shape, or form. Just stop it already. You've become a nuisance and are taking away from the discussion. I hope you don't act like this in the cockpit because I'd have you removed.

People are leaving and it has got their attention PERIOD. Now what they do about it, or how they handle it, is another point. To show weakness is not their style so I, and many others, think they will retaliate as it's a sign of power. I also think that no matter, the new joiners are getting educated quickly by the old timers like me. They are quickly realizing not only whom they joined but what!

Points taken about pay but not in how people are treated by such an irresponsible company. This place is a training ground now and most will eventually leave as besides the T's&C's, this place is full of abhorrent management. Threats and intimidation, read the latest Friday Liar, courtesy of the Muppet they have now placed in the ADFO position. The blue box at the bottom telling people you will be hearing from the fleet office if your are not complying with my NTC! You know what I'd say; FU CK, you horses ass!

So there. This is what this place has become, a reality show that is so bad but you just have to watch it. Think "Here comes honey Boo Boo". It is shocking that it exists but it does.

[csd]

So, Should I vote ".For" the Rule Change?

I'm still no wiser.

[Trafalgar]

No........

[betpump5]

No.That's the answer you want.

[controlledrest]

AGAINST.


Nigel D had the membership trust him (with the pretext of not giving the company enough time to react) by voting for increased industrial action without giving details.

The go slow (Maximum Safety Strategy) was a disaster. Too many guys weren't happy with it and within a matter of days the company could see via data analysis the membership was divided. There quick kick to the nuts (the 49ers) was the end of the action.

We must know what the plan is, decide if we support it and then vote. If the majority are for it then we must follow through. No saying yes to your AOA mates and then yes to the company. Have the guts to do what you say.

[Liam Gallagher]

CSD... Thanks for bringing this back on topic.

I assume that the 150 or so supporting "Pistol Paul's" motion will vote "against" because his motion includes the existing 20.4. Not wanting to derail the thread again, but I am not sure I can support Paul's motion (yet) and perhaps that's a debate for another day. However, it does seem there could be a bit of membership backlash to this and I am torn between supporting the GC and preserving my rights under the existing 20.4.

Assuming "The Visionary" can lay off the Domestos, I would be interested in his views. Sam TW, you often have a contrary view, but you have been here awhile and seem to think deeply about matters, what do you think? Curtain Rod, always a straight shooter, what's your take?

In fact anyone, I am interested to read your views on which way to vote.

[betpump5]

I am torn between supporting the GC and preserving my rights under the existing 20.4.

Since the GC and its President have gone ahead and endorsed LOSA (and been given CN FO SO SO for its troubles) , I'm more than happy to preserve my own rights as much as possible. Especially with this useless GC we have at the moment. I wouldn't leave them to make a Jelly.

[The Visionary]

I had to look up Domestos as I did not get the reference. Very funny!

I do not think it is going to matter how you vote because the company is going to do whatever it wants to or needs to. This will include new contracts. There will be more redundancies coming with the closing of European freighter bases which will solve some crewing issues.

We think we have a say in "Time To Win" or anything but we really do not. We never have, we never will. TTW is not for us. It's a silly strategy to stop the stock from plummeting as the airline has lost it's standing in the arena. What I am saying is it is Time To Leave. It is not a career airline any more. A lot more realize this every day.

The airline has, for some time, always abrogated any contracts they sign. Any new "deal" will be worthless. I believe this is why the last one was voted down plus the threats again. It just angered them when we said no and then went into CC.

What's happened is the AOA has lost focus and now seem to be chasing their tails. It was supposed to be only about Rostering and now negotiations cover everything. I was so against the GFBA and RA because I knew it was a trick all along. Where did it get us.

Some bullet points to what I see coming;

.Freighters start to migrate to AHK. You can go or stay but with new contracts.
.Some can go to A350/330 but you will sign a new contract. Anyone remember how they forced people onto COS 08?
.ARAPA will be cancelled with a new contract with an allowance. Keep in mind the tax implications.
.If you are on COS99, you can go.
.CMP will not work as we simply do not have enough crews to make it work. Similarly to the money spent on EFB and Ipads. Anyone read the latest Flight Ops news letter, NO I Pads! How much money has MH cost this company now but he's still a GM, shocking really.
.The company will "Right size" the airline if it needs to.
.All of this will cost more money and will lead to the eventual demise of the airline. I give it within two to three years.

You should honestly be getting your house in order as this place cannot last long. It's become really bad. Rostering is at an all time low and the only reason the wobbly wheels stay ON the bus is we keep showing up for work. It cannot work like this. It is do to fail.

Swire will lose nothing. The slots are the real value. The airline isn't worth much. The freighter operation and terminal are worth something perhaps. FedEx or UPS would love to have it. Hainan group will probably offer something for the airline and it will be sold in pieces. Others will complain about competition and will get some scraps.

The last thing is Hong Kong is being overrun now by China. Anyone see the show of power with the Navy ships recently. Anyone watching the news, reading the papers, walking the streets. I see in about two years, tanks rolling down the strasse and another Tiananmen Square coming.

What is your health, mental and otherwise worth to you? I wonder what the three freighter pilots we lost last year would have said.

And if you think it's difficult joining the company, wait until you try to leave.

All the best. TV-OUT!

[DessertRat]

"Since the GC and its President have gone ahead and endorsed LOSA (and been given CN FO SO SO for its troubles) , I'm more than happy to preserve my own rights as much as possible. Especially with this useless GC we have at the moment. I wouldn't leave them to make a Jelly."



Yes. A majority of you impressionable young clowns voted out RoFo - the most effective president we have had for some time. Huge mistake.

Huge.

[Dragon69]

Yes. A majority of you impressionable young clowns voted out RoFo - the most effective president we have had for some time. Huge mistake.


You do realise that the last TA, had it not been for certain outspoken GC members, almost passed under his presidency right? I am not saying that the current president turned out to be better, but I wouldn't be so smug as to make the claim of most effect president.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Liam,

as I think the members of the GC invest simply more time into any given issue than the average member, I expect them to be maybe a bit wiser.. I wish we had accepted the last TA, and as far as I remember the majority of the GC was indeed willing to accept the offer. I believe referendums are in general at risk to be mainly influenced by public sentiment rather than reason, see e.g. Brexit or Trump.

Having said that, I believe the future of the AOA is crucially attached to a fair and balanced composition of B and C scalers. If the GC is simply controlled by the majority, all future decisions are at risk of being biased toward C.

[BlunderBus]

The fact that the company quite happily let's the senior capts (who didn't sign for a pay and conditions reduction to enable them to stay beyond 55) retire should be a glaring example of how they feel about retaining trainers and experienced crew. It's always been about the money. Just play the game with their own rules.

[The Visionary]

Much better Sam Ting Wong. Polite, educated and a good response. I'll give you a 5!

We are all on the same side you know. Some of our Jerseys just have more blood stains on them is all.

[Trafalgar]

I agree: good post STW. We can disagree at times, but at least you are here with an opinion. Cheers. Traf

[Trafalgar]

Haha...! No, STW is still the 'enemy' :E, but I do appreciate him making his point without ad hominem attacks. (and we ALL know who the real enemy is)

[Liam Gallagher]

Good post STW. Before any final offer is trashed by the GC, I want the chance to see the offer and vote on it. We are a democracy and I want my voice heard.

I'm voting "no".

[Liam Gallagher]

Anyone know the result of the vote? Haven't seen anything in my inbox. Am I on the naughty step voting "no"?

[boxjockey]

I voted no as well. Perhaps the GC didn't like us thinking for ourselves this time?

box

[goathead]

Why the delay?
Was it all tied in with this HPE NONSENSE, and now it hasn't gone to plan ??

[Liam Gallagher]

Apparently the rules say the result should be published within 2 days. Here we are, nearly a week later and no results in sight. How ironic, we vote on changing the rules and then the GC just ignores the rules anyway... What's the point...?

The Company ignores my COS and the HKAOA ignores the rules.... What's the point?

[goathead]

My patience with this El President and his band of Brothers is coming to an end.
Bring Back Rod

[Trafalgar]

Ok. To the GC and the Chairman: It is now more than 2 days since the vote. What was the outcome? And more to the point, why have we not yet had the result announced? As the previous just said, what is the point...? I realise you guys are volunteers, but then you still have a responsibility to act in the best interest of the members. Ignoring our own rules hardly suggests that is happening. :ugh:

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

Bring back Rod?

It's regrettably far too late for that! You get what you voted for

[Brokeidiot]

Funny we keep demanding transparency from the company... yet we can't even get it from our union!

Seems like they need time to conduct African democracy, edit the vote count till you get the result you want!