Thomas Cook-Beware

[763 jock]

The self appointed "employer of choice" is kicking all of its pilots at BFS, EMA and STN out of their respective bases from next Summer. They are to be replaced by ACMI crews operating Eastern European ACMI aircraft in Thomas Cook livery.

In case you should be considering Thomas Cook, buyer beware. Their basing policy has changed and you could easily find yourself shunted to the other end of the country because they can replace you with cheap labour at your existing base.

Don't believe any corporate :mad: you get fed at an interview. They've done this to guys with 25 years service. At the stroke of a bean counters pen.

[Officer Kite]

Is this SmartLynx crews by any chance taking these places?

[SFCC]

Yes.
And Avion Express

[320goat]

Shocking....expect that sort of behaviour out here.

You guys unionised?

I need a back up plan to this place, will cross them off my list.

[MaverickPrime]

Is it dry or wet lease? If the latter, I suspect the standard of service won't be up to scratch.

Hard luck for the pilots, TCX was probably the best contract out of all the operators at BFS.

As long as the executive board gets their pay rise and bonuses, everything is ok!

[Officer Kite]

I don't know about avion express (presume the same though) but smartlynx provide a damp lease, so the passengers will have the same cabin crew. Though having said that, smartlynx have good reviews regarding their cabin crew anyway ... easyjet and monarch passengers haven't had complaints anyway.

[Yeager]

It all good until the first crash! Boom - then it's no good, no more.

[Fire and brimstone]

Ahem.

Is this the same 'Thomas Cook' who tried to crucify a Captain recently for refusing to work when fatigued - 'or something reported along those lines'?

Wow.

Great man-management.

Surprised they get away with this, given the current pilot shortage ...........

[Twiglet1]

Even worse for BFS Flight Deck no where easy to transfer. What about the winter?

[Trossie]

The problem is all those people who sit behind you: they want to pay peanuts for their fares. That is why a solutions costing peanuts end up being sought.

[763 jock]

Ive had a good laugh reading your post CW247. I'm assuming that you have recently joined and fancy yourself as a managerette.

I've a long history with Thomas Cook and have a good memory. The number of sound business decisions made by our various managers over the years can be counted on one hand. I'm more than happy to have an open discussion here about any of them.

If the company was full of people like you who are ready to "take one for the team", there would be ACMI aircraft everywhere. I think there are 10 or 11 already.

You say that you have voted "no" to this. When was the vote? It's only just been announced so BALPA haven't even started negotiations with the company.

Good luck with your forced base move. With your attitude, you can expect many more.

[dboy]

Well, it is for this kind of practises why the Brits voted for Brexit. In my country it is the same issue. A lot of Polish, Romanian etc people doing the jobs (i dont blame those people) but i do blame the western companies using these methods. Europe opened the gate but the locals and local authorities have to solve the problem arising with it.

[momo95]

I'm pretty sure with or without Brexit there is the possibility to ACMI flights. Smartlynx for example do their business globally, well outside European borders.

[Flying Torquewrench]

Feel sorry for the TCX crews involved. Have you been told yet where you will be based?

[slowjet]

Again, a sad but obvious consequence of what has happened to our profession in terms of loyalty. Many have said that it matters no more what is painted on the side of an aeroplane. Be loyal to your licence and regulatory authority, Start to develop "old school" values of "belonging" and you will get hurt. Welcome to commercial aviation in the 21st century. Would unaware CP's stop asking at selection interviews the daft and currently inappropriate question ; " How long do you expect to remain with us ?" For the UK, no point in bemoaning the glory days I know, but , At school. working on school certs that my National Airline recommended for it's Cadet scheme, I achieved that, looked forward to fully sponsored pilot training costing me nothing I then looked forward to repaying, with gratitude , a long career with that airline. Cripes, welcome to the real world. Awful.

[FlipFlapFlop]

I've to sustain this career for way beyond your grave (sorry for the cheekiness but is very true) but because I've worked for the loco competiton and know we're not going to survive unless we change..



Very unpleasant comment CW. And when did you vote NO ?
You may be right about the need to change but companies that hold against the race to the bottom should be applauded. Shame it appears this is changing at TC.

[Surfer2005]

CW247

By your tone you seem quite naive and immature, yes companies must adapt, but I noticed you said you have worked for the loco competition, most likely poor terms and conditions that you were attracted to the terms and conditions Thomas Cook were offering and hence left? If that is the case then surely you want to to fight to retain some benefits that attracted you to Thomas Cook, with your attitude which appears to be "take whatever is thrown at us" I guess you must be filling applications for your next airline with attractive terms and conditions and when you go there you will most likely encourage cuts and undermine the hard work your senior colleagues have done to retain decent terms and conditions.

Quite frankly you seem to appear like a management wannabe! and seeing as the vote hasn't been issued and you have lied about voting, it wouldn't suprise me if you did vote "yes" shame on you.

[hec7or]

companies that hold against the race to the bottom should be applauded

almost correct FlipFlap, but no company is going to hold out against the race to the bottom, the pilots might though.

[fightthepower]

Hey, some sort of reaction was always going to be illicited after being called a wannabe managarette. I am taking about the last vote to reject the pay deal. Unless Balpa sent me the wrong voting link?

No one denies management in this company is full of tools. Comes with the teritorry. Narciscm and self interest are number one at board level across companies, we're not unique

Your employer decides to outsource your job and replace you with cheap labour and you applaud that decision? Am I understanding you correctly?

[Brat]

I've a long history with Thomas Cook and have a good memory. The number of sound business decisions made by our various managers over the years can be counted on one hand. I'm more than happy to have an open discussion here about any of them.

And seemingly, been happy to stick around to have ‘a long history’.

What does one take from that.

[Surfer2005]

CW247

A very immature response from you, I suggest you grow up and read your posts again, your attitude is shocking, you condone cheap labour, in fact I am not going to engage in further conversation with you until you display some basic self respect and maturity.

On track with this thread all I hope for is that you guys in TCX do not sufffer and get rid of certain people who advocate lower terms and conditions.

[Trossie]

Your employer decides to outsource your job and replace you with cheap labour and you applaud that decision? Am I understanding you correctly?Could that be a management pilot in 'disguise'? Or a management 'wannabe'?

[D00dles]

It is somewhat difficult as a retiree to comment, as I have been out of the loop for some while, but in my 20+ years with group airlines, "loyalty" has changed from a two-way street to one-direction only. My suggestion would be not to make that road too busy at all.

Just like all bonus-driven management, they quickly lose sight of that fact that a happy company is the most profitable one (take John Lewis for example). A shareholder's long view is ignored in favour of short term gains that in the end, prove to be fatal.

I am saddened to hear that out-station colleagues, many of whom I will surely know, are getting the short straw.....again. Even LGW is fast becoming a minor out-station! How did that happen!!!

How can things improve? Well it is a great start denying the laughable pay "offer"! Start getting the boot back on the right foot, never undervalue your professional licence (we wish management were licensed!!!) and recover your status as "Airline Captain" (if you're not one yet, you will be)....rather than just "[Air]bus driver". Say "no" occasionally and NEVER bust-a-gut!

Good luck out there. I wish you all well.

PS. The retirement cheque is pretty small, and in TC there are ZERO, I repeat ZERO perks. So keep on eye on where the best retirement Ts&Cs are. That may just point you in the right direction.:ok:

[Jovis]

Cool...

As a potential joiner, I wonder if there are any thoughts on the impact this might have on numbers of crews at TC?
Apart from the unnerving possibility of those existing crews at closing bases having to move... are TC still expanding in terms of numbers of crews, or is there a genuine threat to existing pilots at the company (closing bases or others), based on this news?

Thanks guys

[Superpilot]

We are in actual fact increasing the fleet by an additional A321 next year with a view to being (finally) all Airbus next year. A small trickle of pilots is expected next year despite the ACMI changes. The company is suggesting they wish to expand presence at the main bases. If this is true, then the overall number of pilots required doesn't change. The bases closing to pilots have a huge seasonal variation with November through to March generally having no more than an average of 3 flights per week. This is the primary justification for the closures. At the moment the company are denying or not answering questions about year round ACMI operations. If we see ACMI during the winters when our SH pilots are genrally less busy, this will be a very bad sign indeed. However, it hasn't been done/announced yet and personally I dont think it will.

[Jovis]

Cool, thanks for the info and your thoughts. More positive than I initially assumed.

[Mister Geezer]

I was taxying out in MAN the other day and noticed a LY registered 321 resplendent in the full TCX colours, which made me do a double take!

It would appear that the decision has been already made with regards to year round ACMI ops. Would the cost and downtime for a repaint be justified for just the summer season?

[Down Three Greens]

I believe this 'all year round ACMI' assumption derived from the extent of their livery was clarified internally today. They are not here all year around apparently i.e. as per other years they leave at the end of summer.

[SFCC]

If you believe that........

[763 jock]

Let's not forget that we already have year round ACMI aircraft. Air Tanker.

Thin end of the wedge and the situation will only get worse. Make no mistake.

[momo95]

At least the guys flying for smartlynx and avion express have some work

[Habana2118]

Wow all this is a very slippery slope for all aircrew in the U.K., is this plan to our soursce small bases in the summer but then have the bigger bases operate from the smaller ones during the winter? If so where will this end?

[763 jock]

It is precisely that. Pilots in BFS, EMA and STN are all being kicked out of base. They are being replaced by ACMI aircraft in Thomas Cook livery, with Thomas Cook cabin crew carrying Thomas Cook passengers.

Those bases will then be supported during the winter months with company aircraft and company pilots with night stops/base touring. Bean counters think it will save money.....

[Habana2118]

And how long before the cabin crew are also out sourced to ACMI crew wearing TCX uniform in the same way Menzies staff wear an airlines uniform on check in! This really is a very slippery slope for all airlines and their crew, I work for another large U.K. Airline and what's happening to you guys really concerns me.....

[Twiglet1]

TC base like BFS/EMA with one or two aircraft will say what need 12-14 crews @ 6/7 crews per aircraft depending on flying etc. The likes of Smart Lynx say 3-4 crews max particularly with EASA FTL. You'd have to assume TC Crews get paid a lot more and if SL crews are even put up in a Hotel it won't be like the ones TC use.
So you can see the "savings" adding up...

[Marlon Brando]

It's very bad, indeed.

Why not just take only smartlynx pilots for all aircrafts ? All year long ?
More benefits for the company. Shareholders will be happy.

The brexit might not be that bad after all. But they will probably find a way to scr..w us anyway

[cvg2iln]

Scope: the brand name of an American mouthwash as well as being a contractual parameter which protects one's employment against the moves of a foreign invader who'll do twice the job for less than half the price. Wakey wakey Little Britain.

[Piltdown Man]

Short of losing your job, having your work subbed out must be one of the worst things that can ever happen. So that gives rise to the next question, what do your CC think about it? Given enough support I'm sure the management could be persuaded that a series a four hour strikes might be more expensive. And this time play them on social media the whole way along. The slime in management don't like nasty social media postings because they can't control them. The rumours, noise and threats can start now if someone provides a link.

Best of luck guys.

[OMDB30R]

Might be reading too much into it, you don't think this has to do with the past events of a pilot that took them to a tribunal for falsifying duty hours? I mean could there could be an investigation in the background going on with the CAA involved, maybe the CAA have restricted their operations? Speculation I know but it does seem a coincidence

[FlipFlapFlop]

Scope: the brand name of an American mouthwash as well as being a contractual parameter which protects one's employment against the moves of a foreign invader who'll do twice the job for less than half the price. Wakey wakey Little Britain.
I guess this is why we voted for Brexit. How does a cheaper pilot do the job twice as well ?

[cvg2iln]

Read again as that's not what I said. More hours of work for less pay sums it up. I would be very unhappy to purchase a ticket on a national carrier to subsequently discover an ACMI arrangement had me flying with cheap crew at the pointy end..

[Snapper5]

Guess you could say twice as efficient which in the airline shareholders ears means twice as well ......

[Officer Kite]

cvg2iln

Are you suggesting the crew of Smartlynx or Avion Express are inferior in their capabilities?

[dirk85]

Shady assessment practices, P2F (ab)use, training virtually non existant and shameful T&C do seem to point in that direction, yes.

Only desperate applicants would consider such an employer.

Not the same can be said for Thomas Cook.

I would be hesitant to put my family on a plane, knowing they operate the flight, I have no shame to admit it.

[Officer Kite]

I can't comment on avion express, I can on smartlynx though.

P2F doesn't exist in the airline. T&C? I have definitely seen and know of worse and pilots aren't on the breadline. Assessment? It's a standard assessment from what I saw, not everyone was accepted who attended and they took lower than the number they set out to take.

There is a good atmosphere around the airline and crews are upbeat. Trying to defame the airline wouldn't be appreciated ...

[FlightDetent]

(The nasty 3's) T&Cs are better by a good margin compared to Eurowings / Vueling for captains, more or less the same as Easy / FR for FOs in the first three years. Smartlynx crew are staying at the same hotel where BALPA holds a venue today.

Know your enemy, it may not be the crews, or the even not the other provider at all. Like the P2F chaps: most of them did not take that road due to being incompetent, rather because in 2 year term it is about 50k GBP cheaper than the "honorable and all-legal" ab-initio+TR cadet schemes.

In my home airline case it was our inapt political management, and onslaught of aviod-social-security competition, we lost. Superpilot above comes across as a voice of reason.

[oleostrutbasher]

SmartLynx recently had the flight deck door wide open in the cruise, great stuff.

[Enzo999]

I joined a UK airline at the same time as a chap from Smart Lynx, unfortualtly for him he did not get through the Sim transition phase and he was already rated. I was there and I can say although he was not treated particulaly well his performance was well below the level expected at most professional airlines. After being released by said Airline he returned immediately to Smart Lynx, its fair to say they did not have the same standards, take from that what you will.

[cvg2iln]

From the erstwhile and much esteemed Officer Kite on the 17th. Are you suggesting the crew of Smartlynx or Avion Express are inferior in their capabilities?

I could not possibly imply such a warped and maligned perspective. But strap oneself, cherished wife (or partner of choice) and the tribe of wee kiddies in the back and let an errant engine have its wicked way at VI. Who do you want in the left seat? A Thomas Cook regular or a Euro-type substitute? ACMI is a minefield. It does however cause one to ponder.

[Officer Kite]

Is there a correlation between ACMI crews being less safe than a 'regular' crew? Have there been any studies to suggest so? Are they held to a lower standard in obtaining and further maintaining their AOC obligations?

Or is it that you think someone not from England can possibly be as good?

This is interesting ...

[Officer Kite]

Just ran a quick search on avherald for excursion, nothing for anything on the specified types of operators, granted it is global, it still covers most of what goes on in Europe. I do however see plenty of air canada and delta mentioned ...

By your statement one would expect to see a full list of cowboy excursions and incidences compared to others. The facts suggest otherwise.

[akindofmagic]

Officer Kite is desperately trying to validate his decision to join a cadet scheme feeding an ACMI "airline", having failed selection for at least one proper airline scheme. I'd strongly suggest you wind your neck in and let the grown ups talk until you have a bit of experience in the industry.

[Vwon]

This seems like a good enough thread to pose the question... Why is there not much talk of the impending strike action from TCX pilots?

[charlies angel]

Strike action!
I thought TCX was a great place for pilots.
Why on Earth would they feel the need to strike?

[Superpilot]

In a nutshell we were offered a 1.5% increase which is substantially below the paycut taken 5 years ago. That was in the region of 10% which the company said it would reinstate when profitable.

All this against a backdrop of management bonuses. Usual story.

[macdo]

Worth noting that there is currently no planned strike action at TCX.

There is an ongoing dispute with the company over t&c's in the hope that TCX will remain a good place to work.

[Superpilot]

never said a word to each other and both looked so tired I wondered if they were fit to drive.

Lol, isn't that about standard after a 11/12 hour duty?

[BAe 146-100]

I joined a UK airline at the same time as a chap from Smart Lynx, unfortualtly for him he did not get through the Sim transition phase and he was already rated. I was there and I can say although he was not treated particulaly well his performance was well below the level expected at most professional airlines. After being released by said Airline he returned immediately to Smart Lynx, its fair to say they did not have the same standards, take from that what you will.

I know a fella who was dropped by TCX in the line training stage after being a CTC cadet, and now is in one of those ACMIs...

Maybe when you start flying Officer Kite you will know what kind of characters end up in such an airline......

It is no ones first choice to go to fly for any ACMI when you have no idea what your doing or where your going month to month, sometimes day to day and usually people do it as a matter of desperation when they have no other options and don't be fooled other wise.

The standards to pass their selection and their training departments, compared to the rest is not even on the same level.

[Heathrow09L]

Obviously before pre merger into TCX, but wasn't this person still kept on the company because he was related to the CEO and subsequently moved onto the A330

Report: My Travel A320 at Kos on Jul 5th 2007, very hard landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=4118b708)

[763 jock]

That'll be a no.

[Daily Dalaman Dave]

Heathrow09L

Totally inaccurate I'm afraid. The Kos incident was a MYT PTF cadet who left the company shortly afterwards.

The CEOs relative didn't work for MYT, he was TCX (as was the CEO) and moved on several years ago and I believe he now flys 380s in the desert.

Other than that you're bang on.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

From 2007?
Bovvered not

[763 jock]

More pressing problems for "management" now.

[Heathrow09L]

"Strike" a match now, seems these managements really enjoy upsetting their staff, maybe a pay rise would have been ok if they didn't spend so much on tribunals etc.

[galaxy flyer]

Don't your contracts have scope clauses that would prevent this type of silliness?

[Mr Angry from Purley]

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/286015/thomas-cook-airlines-pilots-to-strike-on-september-8

[Club World]

Must be one heck of a rich airline, yet more spending in legal fees, haven't learnt anything from their last two tribunal loses, why don't they just fire the flight ops team that could the cause of all of this

Thomas Cook pilot strike set to take off as High Court gives the go-ahead | City A.M. (http://www.cityam.com/271533/thomas-cook-pilot-strike-set-take-off-high-court-gives-go)

[babemagnet]

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/travel/4511330/thomas-cook-strike-dates-latest-flights-airports-cancelled/amp/

[skymonkey1]

well done TCX pilots - strike action cannot be easy but the UK pilot community are 100% behind you. BALPA has shown it has teeth and the pilot group the determination to fight. Lets hope that all airlines take note. Pilots will not be pushed around. Enough is Enough

[WilliumMate]

Thomas Cook strikes cancelled as both parties agree to enter binding arbitration.

Thomas Cook pilots call off strikes - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41509194)

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Going on strike with Monarch having just gone down wouldn't have been good PR for TC pilots IMHV. Wasn't it a few years ago that TC were in a similar position?

[akindofmagic]

I'm always somewhat puzzled by the argument that workers (not just pilots) in dispute should get the public "on side". It matters not a jot what the public think.

[Cazalet33]

Unless "the public" are the fare-paying customers who pay your wages.

Then it matters. A lot.

[akindofmagic]

The travelling public are not going to base a decision on whether or not to fly with an airline on whether they agree or disagree with the reasons for a strike by its pilots. It is a ridiculous line of argument.

[RAT 5]

The Public also need educating sometimes. Some of the recent decisions in various elections, worldwide, might have been based on mis-information and they might have been suckered by the side that were better at clouding the real issues than the other.

[cvg2iln]

galaxy flyerDon't your contracts have scope clauses that would prevent this type of silliness? The EU has rendered scope a redundant concept. All one big happy family in which the less than able line up to take any job away from those more proficient albeit at a cheaper price.

I have/had scope protection, so perhaps did you. Euro types no longer enjoy that level of protection. Not sure they ever did.

[Boeing 7E7]

Unless "the public" are the fare-paying customers who pay your wages.

Then it matters. A lot.

Can you (or indeed anyone) provide any evidence that this is the case? This is very much an assumption - however well meant.

There is a growing recognition that the last two decade have seen a significant disparity of wealth accumulation between the people at the top of industry and the 'workers'. Pilots are part of the 'workers'. The majority of the public are 'workers' and are therefore, in effect on the same side. The media may seek to undermine a striking workforce (in this case Pilots) but I think public opinion has shifted significantly and therefore your statement may hold more fear than truth!

[Serenity]

So in the current round of recruitment, what chance of getting a base at Gatwick? Where are the spaces? Future plans?
Many thanks.

[gnarlberg]

got the info its just 4 spots for manchester.

[It's only Me]

There are 18 F/O positions across the bases.

[Dave_t6]

Has anyone actually started with Thomas Cook in recent weeks? I have been through the process but no course dates have even been mentioned?

[macdo]

Has anyone actually started with Thomas Cook in recent weeks? I have been through the process but no course dates have even been mentioned?

I wouldn't be too surprised. Training dept. is maxxed out big time.

[ShotOne]

Agreed the public won’t base their travel choice on strike-unless it were safety-related which it wasn’t. But passengers DO choose to fly with a brand they recognise with an experienced U.K. regulated operation and pilots. Would they have chosen to fly with a small airline in a former-Soviet republic operating far from its regulator with a business model which hinges on high turnover of very low-paid pilots?

[macdo]

Agreed the public won’t base their travel choice on strike-unless it were safety-related which it wasn’t. But passengers DO choose to fly with a brand they recognise with an experienced U.K. regulated operation and pilots. Would they have chosen to fly with a small airline in a former-Soviet republic operating far from its regulator with a business model which hinges on high turnover of very low-paid pilots?

LoL, if the small ex-communist bloc airline was five quid cheaper, yeah, you can bet that the majority of TC's clientele would be off like a shot. Even if the planes were flown by well trained gibbons! It's a razor sharp cut throat market out there, and to be fair to TC's board, they know it well.

[ShotOne]

In which case why don’t they fly under their own branding so passengers can make an informed choice? I’ve nothing against Smartlynx as such, but holiday-makers are being conned that they are flying on a Thomas Cook aircraft

[macdo]

In which case why don’t they fly under their own branding so passengers can make an informed choice? I’ve nothing against Smartlynx as such, but holiday-makers are being conned that they are flying on a Thomas Cook aircraft
It is because your average holiday maker knows that an aeroplane flies from one point of the earth to another (see note 1). Above that he/she largely has little interest in the flight other than the cabin experience. Almost all TC ACMI aircraft are branded as TC, have TC in-flight product and TC Cabin Crew. They have bought a TC 'product' and they have received it. On the TC website, if a holiday/flight is being flown with a non MT flight number, it will say operated by xxx airlines. In fact they go further, in the bowels of the website there is even a page which describes who is operating the ACMI a/c. All the info is there, but few customers will go looking for it, but they will always look at the price.

Note 1. It is not uncommon for passengers not to actually know where on the planet they are actually bound for!

[Direct Bondi]

You are correct in your assessment of passenger apathy.

Passengers remain indifferent even when 100% of the pilots and flight attendants are outsourced and have no employment relationship the airline. Unions in the US are demanding this information be disclosed to passengers at ticket purchase. No US airline operates with 100% outsourced crews, ACMI replacements are seldom used.

[macdo]

That's good to hear, usual own goals. As much as I deplore the attempt to reduce t&c's within the group by inventing TCBals, I'd far rather fly on a jet that had at least some oversight and investment from the main airline group, than the aforesaid ACMI's, which I would not fly on by choice. TCBals will struggle in the current recruitment climate, but I suspect it is the shape of the group airline of the future.

[CargoOne]

No US airline operates with 100% outsourced crews, ACMI replacements are seldom used.

If you look at US market, all regional operations are in fact outsourced to Skywest and alike, who operating hundreds(!) of aircraft on the contracts which are a mix of ACMI and charter nature. Skywest alone is 400+ aircraft, Europe is a far cry compared to that.

[Riskybis]

So, what's the deal. Still seeing FO recruitment adverts across the group. Is that for expansion despite all the doom, gloom and negativity or simply to replace people retiring/moving on?
There is always smoke with fire , but I never trust the media ! They add viscous rumours to sell a story , detrimental to the employees

[USERNAME_]

Airline side almost certain to be sold to keep the wolf (bond holders) from the door. Who knows what happens to the crews then - might be a back door to Virgin, might not. Amazing how quickly the Germans undid the recovery created by Harriet Green.

Word in the galley is that Indigo Partners are going to take us over. Whether they WOW us or not is another story.
The uncertainty is the worst part, and the company don't tell us anything! Not even reassuring us.

[UAV689]

Hope it all works out for you guys. Was reading today about payment companies withholding the dish from tickets, that is a nightmare for short term liquidity

[USERNAME_]

Hope it all works out for you guys. Was reading today about payment companies withholding the dish from tickets, that is a nightmare for short term liquidity

Far as i'm aware, the payments being withheld are bookings made via thomascook.com or other forms of package holiday.

Direct bookings for flights-only on thomascookairlines.com are not having payments withheld, thankfully.

[horsebox]

Alot of the media reporting is borderline hysterical and not helpful. However the company need to be a bit more active in correcting this before it takes hold. Airline sale needs to happen sooner not later.

[Jonty]

Far as i'm aware, the payments being withheld are bookings made via thomascook.com or other forms of package holiday.

Direct bookings for flights-only on thomascookairlines.com are not having payments withheld, thankfully.


No, it’s just in the Nordics. And they are not at this point withholding payment. They are in talks with Thomas cook about an extension to terms.
Hopefully it won’t come to that.

[a5in_the_sim]

Perhaps Greybull Capital could buy them........

[AviatorDave]

The Public also need educating sometimes. Some of the recent decisions in various elections, worldwide, might have been based on mis-information and they might have been suckered by the side that were better at clouding the real issues than the other.

Good luck with educating the public. These days, too many powerful forces want to keep the public‘s eyes shut in many regards. And, largely owning the mass media, they have been doing pretty well so far.

[safelife]

Latest gossip is, TC won't sell their airlines after all.
Apparently found other ways of controlling their dept.

[763 jock]

Latest gossip is, TC won't sell their airlines after all.
Apparently found other ways of controlling their dept.

Just gossip. Nothing more. The airlines will be sold.

[Satoshi Nakamoto]

I heard there was a conference yesterday. Any news?

[safelife]

Ten days to news, allegedly.

[louelle100]

is there any inclination of what the news will be or positive/negative?

[Capt Scribble]

As the Company is close to bankrupt, it will be a choice of restructuring or restructuring and the shareholders taking a hit (again). The airline might get off lightly as there will still be all those people needing to be flown on holiday.

[763 jock]

The airlines are wholly owned subsidiaries of Thomas Cook Group PLC. As such, they will all go if the PLC folds. They are assets owned by the PLC and would be used by administrators to pay back creditors.

I don't think that is likely though. Big changes will occur before the winter low season.

[safelife]

Takeover by Chinese, most probably.

[Capt Scribble]

@Raski, The share price would indicate otherwise. You are correct re the airline, I was referring to the PLC which is now at the level of debt that MYT plc and TCX plc restructured on previous occasions. As a share holder and employee, I do have the picture. Unfortunately, the airline is the only asset left to reduce debt and imho will not be an easy thing to sell for its worth. I think the future will be “rice or noodles” rather than “chicken or beef”!

[CargoOne]

Possible sale of the tour operator to Chinese is a very good explanation for desire to sell the airline separately as Chinese cannot legally own it (at least not the EU parts of post-Brexit). Same like TNT and Fedex deal years ago.

[Maxfli]

From the "Motley Fool" (30th June2019)......

Over the 12 months to 31 March, Thomas Cook paid £122m in interest costs but only generated £30m of cash from operations. The firm’s latest balance sheet shows total liabilities of £6,371m and total assets of just £5,026m. This suggests that the firm may be insolvent. Without a refinancing deal, I don’t see how Thomas Cook can continue trading.

£ at its lowest since 2000, shrinking economy, less disposable income available.
I doubt things will improve when Boris moves into No.10.

Genuine best wishes to all crew.

[Jonty]

Its going to be a debt for equity swap.

Thomas cook will survive, but shareholders probably face a beating.

[eiffel]

I saw Thomas Cook Balearics is recruiting …. Different entity?

[macdo]

I saw Thomas Cook Balearics is recruiting …. Different entity?
Nope, part of the same group.

[Jonty]

As long as the deal goes through the company will be delisted from the stock exchange. The £300m will not be required as Thomas cook will have no debt as such, and will not be required to make interest payments.
It secures the long term future of the business, but shafts the shareholders.
Then I think huge changes are going to be made in the medium term.
I get the feeling that Thomas cook wanted to sell the airlines to Lufthansa, but Lufthansa’s issues of late made that deal very difficult. This deal will leave open the door to Lufthansa to take a majority stake in the airline without having to take ownership in its entirety. But that’s for the 3-5 year future term.

Interesting times ahead.

There will be no rights issue.

[Joe le Taxi]

.There will be no rights issue The RNS says that shareholders will be diluted, but they will have an opportunity to participate. Maybe not an RI, but some form of equity or stake on offer, in exchange for cash, and that implies remaining listed. I can't see many takers for that, personally. Being a minority shareholder in these situations is a mugs game - the bond holders and banks call the shots. The cash injection is only at the discussion stage, so the debt holders/banks may well decide they would be throwing good money after bad, and instead just sell off the component parts in a liquidation. A key factor is how much the slots are worth, because after the Monarch(?) precedent, they do not remain assets of the liquidators, so that can incentivise keeping the airline running for long enough to sell them on (although the CAA may be disinclined to allow this)

[Jonty]

It’s Fosun putting in the extra £750m.
The company will remain listed until fosun decide wether they want to take the whole thing private and de-list. St that point there would be some value to the remaining shareholders, but I imagine it would be very small per share as the shareholders will own very little of the company by then.
I think while technically at the discussion stage, as in nothing has been signed, I can’t imagine TC management releasing a statement like that without tacit approval from the banks, bond holders and major shareholders. So I think it’s gone much further than what you and I would call a discussion.
I don’t know what the next few weeks and months hold for Thomas Cook, but I see this announcement as something positive for customers and employees.

[Joe le Taxi]

.("Fosun"), and Thomas Cook's core lending banks It's not just Fosun - it's the banks and bond holders too (and despite losing a fortune investing in the equity, I think Fosun may find that the lenders have the whip hand, what with the equity being almost worthless).. and read the RNS carefully - Fosun will remain a minority holder of the airline side, and banks being risk averse, may well not want to take a punt on ops going forward. As for your statement that debt would be eliminated - not by a long chalk, I'm afraid - they are about 1.5b in a hole - this raises 750m and the statement that they need this to get through the winter is really not encouraging. With jet2 reporting excellent results yesterday, the failure of TCGs directors is all the more stark.

[Jonty]

Your right about the £750m it’s coming from the banks and Fosun. But it’s not for debt repayment. The debt will be written off by the bond holders and banks taking a large proportion of Thomas Cook Group over. The tour operator will go to Fosun and no longer be listed on the stock exchange. Fosun will own a minority of the ai line with banks and bond holders owning the majority in return for debt.
This deal essentially leaves Thomas cook group debt free, but without its tour operating business and only a minority stake in the airline. But with its other business intact.
That £750m is for investment into the business. To buy more hotels, to replace an ageing 767 fleet, all things like that.
Big changes are coming, that £750m will not last forever, end of next year apparently, but it’s going to help turn Thomas cook around, and the loss making tour operator will be gone anyway.

[Joe le Taxi]

. The debt will be written off by the bond holders Sorry, but conspicuously, the RNS did NOT say the bond holders have agreed to this ("core" banks apparently are on board, and of course Fosun are, which makes this all look like very wishful thinking on Fosuns part). I see no indication that bond holders will accept any less than face value repayment, and given that they are one of the first in line to be paid through flogging assets in a liquidation, I'm afraid I give this Fosun plan less than a 50% chance of working. Fosun stand to lose their shirt, just like other shareholders, unless they pay off all debt and make an open offer to remaining shareholders (this being entirely possible, and also possible is that private discussions have brought bond holders on board with Fosuns plan, although if they have already, then I would have thought they would mention it). I also refer you to the statement "injection of £750 million of new money which would provide sufficient liquidity to trade over the Winter" - this is far from being just for investment purposes. But the really ominous thing is that they failed to get a sensible offer for the airline, despite claiming until now that there were multiple offers on the table.

[Peter G-W]

You seem to have taken issue with half a sentence, given your (mis)quote?

[Joe le Taxi]

Ok, full sentence Under the proposal, the Group is targeting an injection of £750 million of new money which would provide sufficient liquidity to trade over the Winter 2019/20 season and the financial flexibility to invest in the business for the future The point remains, it is not, as jonty claims, a 750m "investment into the business" - predominantly it is just to keep the wheels turning over the winter (and the key word is "flexibility to invest" - which I read to mean, loan covenant headroom is improved, but that it would require more borrowing on top to do anything above just keeping the wolf from the door over the winter) It's the bond holders who account for the vast majority of the debt (about 1bn), so I really can't see why they'd trade it (and their rights to the assets) for some almost worthless equity - but id be happy to be proved wrong (usually am)! https://www.standard.co.uk/business/comment-thomas-cooks-boss-ran-out-of-luck-just-like-shareholders-a4188661.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1562950827
and FT - "Thomas Cook and Fosun will also need to convince the travel group’s bondholders. “The question is what Fosun will offer bondholders and the banks, and then what it will do with the business in future,” said one investor in the group’s bonds. “We also worry about the regulatory view from the three jurisdictions in UK, Germany and the Nordics, given the Chinese buyer,” they added". .https://www.ft.com/content/6f6d37d2-a452-11e9-974c-ad1c6ab5efd1

[Superpilot]

Spent several wonderful years at TCX and constantly thinking about my former colleagues, but it's time to be honest about why it's not a viable choice for buyout. It's not just the current climate which abates other airline interest. It's more fundamental than that.

Being tied to the group to service holiday packages means the airline was never really free to seek out new ideas. Unfortunately, too late for that. Even if the group sells the airline and the airline becomes part of something new. What new thing is the airline ready to try in an already overcrowded market? It's a risky business with Jet2 making inroads on a daily basis.

The idea that the airline will continued to be used by the tour operator is also difficult to swallow. After any split, I can just see TC increasingly buying the vast majority of seats from the bin of the aviation industry (the Eastern European charter airline network) at probably half the cost.

There is nothing that I can see TCX or Condor can do to pivot their business right now.

[Twiglet1]

When I worked for My Travel they said the Tour Operator made the money, the Airline was the cash cow.
I got a feeling it's all smoke n mirrors!

[PA28161]

Most of the 1.5b debt is a write down of the MT business from years ago. It does not, I repeat, does not mean that TCG has a tangible black hole in its balance sheet. I's an accountants way of making a balance sheet impairment based on previous years write downs.

Trouble is it's people on this forum and elsewhere, harbingers of doom and gloom, that spread and foment dissent. Your philosophy is ; it is not enough that I should succeed, everyone else must fail

[Capt Scribble]

PA , you have mixed up the loss for the year with the debt. The half-year loss was indeed around £1.5 bn because of the write-down, one could be kind and say most of the loss was not ‘real money’. Unfortunately, the actual debt stands close to £1.5 bn because the present management have once again let it run away after Harriet Green reduced it in the previous crisis to about £400m. Its the third time in my years at TCX/MYT/Airtours that the debt has spiralled out of control to about this level and the banks have said no more. The PLC is on life support and there is talk of a £750m cash injection to shore it up. How that amount of cash can be found to support a company which in the view of some analysts is worth zero, I do not know. As we all know the airline is healthy, but I can see that the tour operator and airline will be radically different in2020.

[Jonty]

https://news.sky.com/story/a-rosy-future-for-thomas-cook-once-debt-noose-eased-11763476

[Jonty]

From what I can see Thomas cooks net debts and net assets are about the same, so there’s no equity in the company.
But if they swap £1.5bn of debts into ownership of the company then the company’s net assents will out weigh net debts by £1.5bn, so there’s value. To do this ownership has to be handed over to the debt holders, and shareholders are wiped out. As has happened.

So now with no debt, Thomas cook will benefit from a £450m investment from Fosun, and a £300m revolving credit facility. The credit facility will help TCG smooth out seasonal cash flow. And the £450m will be to invest in the business and turn it around.

Historically TCG has made decent operating profits. You have to if your going to pay the interest payment on £1.5bn of debt. This amounts to £1.2bn over the last 8 years. But the last 2 years have been difficult and has bought the situation to a head.

At at the end of this TCG “should” be virtually debt free, streamlined and agile. Able to invest in its business and have turned its self around.

And the price for all this? The shareholders.