Welshpool - how good?

[Atlanta]

For many months now I have noticed Welshpool Flying School advertising their PPL course at £2,990 including ground exams, home based landing fees and VAT. These are almost the sort of prices you expect to see for training in the States! Perhaps it might be a good place to do some hours building towards CPL. Has anyone used them? How good are they? Are there any snags to training there? Perhaps our Welsh colleagues might care to comment.

[Daifly]

Have a look through the archives using Search. There's lots on WPL.

I worked, and learnt, there many moons ago and it was a great place to learn. Free from controlled airspace (apart from the big airway above) - which I don't get down here in the southeast!

It's over 10 years old now(!) so I'm not sure what state the place is in, but at that price, I don't think there's much argument. You certainly get your licence in most cases - THOUGH DO READ THE PREVIOUS POSTINGS! And don't pay up front, it still happens these days, look at SFT.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well avoid Images night club, The Oak has gone right downhill, The Talbot, Pheasant and Churchills are good pubs and the new Indian does a fantastic Balti.

As for the flying school...

The aircraft are OK, the buildings are OK, the facilities on the airfield are OK, the accomodation is OK. Not great, not rubbish but OK.

They have been going 10 years and have turned out a lot of PPLs, me included. They are a sound company but there are no frills at that price so expect to be given the Trevor Thomb books, ask if you get stuck and do the exams when you feel able etc. etc.

I think its a very good deal indeed. I cannot vouch for the instructors there at the moment as I don't know them apart from the odd one whom I last flew with as their instructor (hi Caroline)...

Go take a look is the best advice.

WWW

[Daifly]

I'd have to disagree about the Talbot. You have to get there early to get a seat.

Which, thinking about it, may well be a good excuse...

[liverbird]

The pool aviation website. http://www.poolaviation.co.uk/frameset.html

[skysoarer]

Nice place ... nice people ... nice area and scenery ... not too much traffic to interfere with learner pilots like me ... poxy weather when I was there though!

To quote my instructor that day, the course is cheap because "the aircraft are old BUT v.well looked after". Also as they own the airfield and all ground operation aspects they control everything. This allows them to keep costs down alot without sacrificing safety. Quite a perky little setup I think.

BUT visit them and have a chat. Remember to ask Carolyn first mind... ;)

Regards;

Sky

[Atlanta]

Many thanks to one and all for answering so promptly. I feel much encouraged to drive over and have a closer look.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The aircraft aren't all that old - there is a fair old mix but at least they are all owned by the same chap who does know an awful lot about them.

The main reasons that the place is cheap are related to low overheads.

The whole place was built with EU and WDA money because they decided that Mid Wales needed an airport and a local company was willing to build the runway for its own aircraft Ops. The place attracts a very low rent for the current sole operator. He has little in the way of maintenance and operating costs on the new built buildings.

The owner and his wife run the business themselves which reduces management costs. There is a very healthy flying club at the school due to the remoteness of alternative clubs and this helps cross subsidise aircraft utilisation.

Trust me - the owners make a healthy profit from the place even though the prices are rock bottom. I learnt, flew and worked there quite happily. I never had one problem with the aircraft maintenance which is all done on site in a very well run hangar.

It might not suit all, the runway is small and challenging in some respects thus first solo might take a little longer than normal. Otherwise its been pumping out more PPL than a lot of other big name schools for the last decade.

WWW

ps My old Mum keeps threatening to do B&B for Flying School students so if you go to Welshpool you might even end up in Weasley Towers... scary!

[QUERY]

After reading all the recommendations, still worried about Welshpool.
Haven't been there but it doesn't seem to add up.
Fuel for 45 hours- £900?
Aircraft depreciation/insurance/maintenance- £1000?
Insructor pay and employment costs- £400?
Exams./Examiner- £200?
Accommodation- £300?
Admin./building/Advertising/Airport cost-£200?
Profit- there isn't any!
So what's wrong or does the Welshpool course actually cost much more than they claim?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Query - with respect you can be as worried as you like.

The business is run by someone who knows it inside out. He owns 25 aircraft himself and has been trading at EGCW for over a decade now. The maintenance hangar is a seperate profitable business in itself which Adam runs with a sense of professional pride.

I have hudreds and hundreds of hours in all the aircraft at Welshpool. I have no hesitation in stating that they are no better and no worse than the UK GA Fleet average.

There are some "hidden" costs to factor in. Clearly you are going to need more than 10 nights accom but it is dirt cheap up the road. The r/t exam is £50 unless Pete has upped the price. Most students opt to buy extra insurance cover for their courses at about £75.

Other than that it is exactly as advertised. There are other schools in the UK who do PPL course for between 3 and 4 grand. You just have to look outside of the SE of England.

WWW

[window-seat]

Hi Broomstick_pilot

I spent 6 weeks at Welshpool last summer and enjoyed every day, (well appart from the rainy ones)! I would recommend it for most of the reasons already stated, loads of free airspace, cheap (but perfectly usable) accommodation for just 8 quid a night and a warm friendly atmosphere! I completed all my exams and my Cross Country Quali. in six weeks and then I had to return to work!

I went back for the odd hour here and there to keep myself up to speed, and finally took my Skill test and got my licence last April. All in it took me 52 hrs, and cost me 3,500 quid. (this spanish keyboard does not have a pound sign)!!!

Pete charges about 100 quid for the RT class and test, and I bought a headset, a few books and a few hours to keep me going until my test. I also made some good friends their, some of which had travelled many miles to take advantage of the school.

I got the bug, and am sat here in Jerez having completed 10 weeks of groundschool, waiting for my phase 1 JARs in Feb!!! (must be mad)!

Well, its Friday night, happy hour´s been and gone, and I´m well on my way (so I appologise for my dodgey drunken spelling)....Grafton Street later no-dought!

Hi to Caroline and all in chilly wales, I will try and get down for a couple of hours flying before I have to come back out here in the new year!
:D

[Whirlybird]

Low lying and can flood; hills around are over 1000 ft and circuits 1500 ft, therefore may get more days you can't fly than some other places if low cloud or heavy rain. Prices kept down partly by paying instructors peanuts and overworking them, so tends to be high turnover of low hours, inexperienced instructors. This means some people do OK, some have a hard time due to standard of instruction and/or never getting airborne due to weather. It's a matter of luck. On the whole in aviation you get what you pay for. Read the archives, go and visit, ask around, see what you think. I got my PPL(A) at Welshpool; feel free to e-mail me if you have any more questions.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yep it can flood - 11 weeks in the last decade. Long mountain is actually only 832ft high aqnd the circuit height is 1500' although there is a poor weather one at 800'... The average experience of the current instuctor team is just under 1000 hrs which isn't bad and the CFI has 3000+hrs instructional and has been there for many years.

When I worked there as an instructot it was £10 a day retainer plus £10 an hour airborne. Wages have since gone up. Given that the school is busy you make more at Welshpool than at most PPL flying schools. Easily.

But Whirly is right - you don't get ought for nought.

Cheers,

WWW

[Whirlybird]

WWW,

Who's CFI at Welshpool now then?

Admittedly my info could be a bit out of date; I haven't even dropped in there for some months; no time. And Carolyn hates helicopters, even if I keep to the f/w circuit so as not to confuse her. :D

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Marsden does CFI with Simon doing all skilltests.

WWW

[Atlanta]

When I posted this topic, I hoped I might get a couple of usable replies. Instead, what do I get but an embarrassment of riches. Sound, detailed, useful information. When my time comes to commence hours-building, I shall prefer somewhere at least slightly challenging and Welshpool sounds more attractive than ever. Very many thanks to one and all.


C'mon Puss. Let's get the 'stick' airborne. We'll go and scatter spells over Slough.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Query - why did you cut and paste your "worried about" Welshpool post onto the thread about groundschool feedback from OATS or Bristol?

Is this just a function of your ever zealous campaign to denigrate JAA flight training and send everyone to the USA?

Just wondering...

WWW

[englishal]

Hmm...which from the Students point of view, would be a very smart move....

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Or a very dumb move. All depends on personal circumstances.

WWW

[Atlanta]

A word of thanks to WWW
I note your suggestion that if I decide to use Welshpool it might be possible to arrange accomodation with Lady Weasles at Weasle Towers. It will be nearly a year before I commence serious hours building, however if I do use Welshpool, I just might take you up on that: many thanks.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The day I got there I was informed by their most senior instructor to watch my back, and not be forced by the management into flyingq in bad weather etc.

Yep I got that talk to. Its good practice. Making sure that the eager new employee doesn't bend to commercial pressures.

To be frank, the instructors are treated like dirt behind the scene, they are overworked which means after 5-6 hours of flying that day, your not going to get much out of them, they are wrecked!

Yep the owner is not a very cuddly character to work for. But he paid me on time and bought me a pint at Christmas. IS there any such thing as an overworked PPL instructor? In my day (yester) I wanted every hour out of the day for my logbook and every £10 for my social fund...

The flying that you log and pay for is based on hobs, not brakes-brakes. O'h and if you wan't a laugh, the PA28 has the hobs wired to the master switch i'm told, meaning you are paying whilst you do your walk round, internal checks etc. Not good at all, and to be frank not acceptable.

What a load of tosh. The PA28 never was, isn't and never will be wired through the Main Switch. I've flown it and will be again in the next few weeks. All Hobbs work off master electrical PLUS oil pressure. Brakes on/off is mildly better than Hobbs as you get the after start and shutdown drills for free. However, if you note that at Welshpool your taxi is all of 30 metres or at worst 30m and a backtrack followed by a rapid take off on an uncontrolled runway used only by the sole flying school/club (breath) you would understand that at Welshpool you lose less time on the ground than at any other school in the UK. Your Hobbs objection is completley ridiculous.

You will not get briefings most of the time, the most you will get throughout the course is a lecture on Navigation for 2-3 hours. I was told the once "If a student has a problem you get them to pay £30/hour to brief them, don't waste time, get up there and fly".

You only ever get one formal paid for bried. As you say, on Nav. Everything else is - read T Thom chapters x,y,z then you might get the OHP brief, at the minimum you'll get a board brief before flight. If any instructors do less than this then THEY and not the school is to blame. True instructors are left to manage the professional side of their trade as they see fit. The pi55 poor ones will do rubbish 2 minute briefs and get airborne again and the good ones will do the least they think necessary when the weather is good and punters are queued up. Most instructors will do a lot more on slacker days. If you are an instructor and you flew without pre-briefing then you must be a pi55 poor instructor. Each student has a 1.5hr slot per flying hour sortie. 20 mins pre brief, 10 mins post, 1hr airborne. That was the system, is the system and will remain the system.

The standard that students reach in my opinion is quite poor, and reflects what you pay for, so ask your self, what standard do you want to be ?

And in my opinion quite good. Strong on crosswind landings on small runways. Good on VRF nav. Poorer on RT poor airspace knowledge. Much of the standard of the student is dependent on that of the instructor... at small school such as Welshpool where there is NO standardisation things are variable. For consistent quality go to CABAIR where they have standard groundbriefs and a standards flight supervising the instructors. Their PPL course price is somewhere just under £7000 I believe.

O'h also I agree with the above comment, don't pay for the course up front, and don't assume they will even be there in the long-term future, big things are on the anvil !

Yeah yeah. Pool Aviation was there a decade ago, have made money every year, have grown year on year and I know the Boss enjoys his own Beech Baron, 4 holidays a year, a big car and a nice house... And as of last week - in the middle of a downturn at the worst point of the year - Welshpool have 5 full time students plus part timers and are employing 3 instructors. More than many.

WFS will accept money up front for the £2995 price or its about £200 more if you pay as you go. Put £1500 on 2 credit cards and get the discount would be my advice.

Cheers,

WWW

* other schools are available

** always read the small print

*** this does not effect your statutory rights

**** prices correct at time of press

[Whirlybird]

I got my PPL(A) at Welshpool, flew a bit from there, then moved to Sleap for a variety of reasons. I did my PPL(H) at Shobdon, another small airfield with cheap prices, then moved elsewhere. I did my CPL(H) at yet another airfield. (I'm not aiming for the record for number of home airfields, honest! :) ) I've talked to a lot of people and learned a lot, so here are a few thoughts:



1) For both PPLs I had newish instructors who were't that good, and it caused a lot of problems for me, some long term in terms of bad habits to unlearn etc. There is another way. Some schools, not necessarily expensive ones, monitor what's going on - the CFI flies regularly with the students of newer instructors to get a feeling for what's happening for instance. This is a good idea.



2) From what I've seen and heard ( and I admit some of this is rumour and hearsay) things vary at Welshpool and were worse some time ago. An instructor who left around 1997 told me of being forced to fly in bad wx etc. I heard rumours of the CAA being informed etc. Whether that was true or not, it didn't happen when I was there (mainly 1998), at least not to my knowledge.



3) The airfield owner would like to get Pool Aviation out, or wanted to less than a year ago at least. All local rumour, but apparently Pool won the court case, but there may still be appeals etc. Perhaps not wise to pay money upfront unless by credit card.



4) Welshpool doesn't have much in the way of club atmosphere compared to, say, Sleap. On the other hand, as it's geared to students on three-week courses, there is good availability of aircraft at weekends, and it's not too hard to book an aircraft for a whole day.



5) Other airfields in the area have a number of ex-Welshpool instructors and flyers, a fair few saying they love the place but not the present management. Does this mean anything? I have no idea, perhaps drop along to Sleap, sit around and chat, and decide for yourself. On the other hand, some people moved from Sleap to Welshpool - so that doesn't help a lot does it.



I'm on neither side, have no axe to grind, and don't even fly from any aifields in the area right now. I'm just trying to share what I know or have heard. If I think of anything else I'll add it.

[Pandora]

One of my moments of true aviation terror occurred at Welshpool as I backtracked along the rnway after landing. (I didn't learn there, I was just going there for some cake.) A Welshpool instructor in a Tomahawk de4cided it would be perfectly OK to do a touch and go since I was still down the far end of the runway. The woman in the school building didn't seemed too perturbed even when I asked to file a formal complaint. I have never been back, even though their carrot cake was very good.

[liverbird]

I just want to say that i had a bacon butty in their cafe, and it cost me £3.40. its a crime.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Pandorra - not wishing to be unkind but in this 2 aircraft incident one was piloted by a student new to an airfield, the other by an instructor at his home base... Who is more likely to have been in the wrong? And if it was me in the other aircraft I apologise for causing you distress.

The person working the air/ground radio would be totally disinterested in your wishing to lodge a formal complaint becuase she is an adminstrative deputy manager. The correct action would have been to file an ASR.

Whirly is quite correct to state that the Welshpool experience varies depending on your instructor. Like most small school faces change and some instructors are brilliant, some rubbish and most average.

The pressure to fly issue ceased when Steve Mole flew LJ into a mountain side. Prior to that it was a matter of professional judgement whether to fly and bowing to commercial pressure - whilst understandable - was still a personal poor decision.

On the matter of atmosphere again Whirly is correct. However, if you are there full time for a few weeks you will be with others on the same course, living in the same accomodation with communal kitchens and generally people have a complete ball that way and make friends they treasure for years. I certainly went for a good few nights parties in the Barn over the summer of 99 - the less said about the skinny dipping in the River the better...

WWW

[Polar_stereographic]

Somethings gone missing here. Who removed it?

Just curious.......

PS

[ 06 December 2001: Message edited by: Polar_stereographic ]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Not me.

[Pandora]

WWW,
I was not a student at the time, and it was not my first visit to Welshpool. I am perfectly capable of assessing the the weather at an airfield and joining a circuit that is being flown by a number of other aircraft at the same time, and Welshpool is certainly not the most challenging airfield I have ever been to. I merely mentioned that I did not learn at Welshpool to point out that I am not a bitter ex-student who is having a dig. Please do not insult me by implying that my ignorance was the cause of this incident. The rules of the air are quite clear that an aircraft shall not land on a runway that is occupied, and I believe only a complete idiot would carry out a touch and go with another aircraft coming toward them on the runway. If it was you I am sure you would have remembered, as you uttered expletives over the airwaves and upset a helicopter in the process of landing too.

[El Desperado]

Well, Welshpool is an R/G airfield.. there are no clearances to land, line-up etc. 'Your discretion' is the phrase. If something went awry, then an ASR is the way, as WWW pointed out. And, Pandora, landing on an occupied runway is perfectly acceptable in certain circumstances.. 'land after', during day VMC ring any bells ??!!

I did a PPL there quite a while back and loved it. I started in March which, with hindsight, wasn't the cleverest of moves due wx, but when we weren't flying the instructors were keen to go through the books, exams etc, or even just talk over an (overpriced !) sandwich and cup of tea about various procedures.

The accomodation was friendly and basic - I got three weeks thrown in back then in 1994, I think, for £2500. Extras were club membership and equipment (maps, whizz-wheel etc). Took me 4 weeks - had to pay for an extra week's accom., but I got to jam guitar with the guy who owned the place and chat up his daughter, so no complaints !

As someone has said, Welshpool doesn't really have much of an 'atmosphere', but if you want to spend your evenings listening to some airforce-flying-suit-clad C152 warrior tell you about the time he nearly (if you buy him/her a beer).. blah blah.. then there are plenty of other choices. If you want to do the course then I couldn't fault the place.

WWW makes the point about R/T and uncontrolled airspace; I found myself a little unprepared for wider forays soon after the course but even when they weren't being paid, the guys sat down and went through it with me. That was then - depends on who is there now I suppose.

The aircraft were serviceable, clean, but ermm 'used'. At that price, what do you expect ? If you want to go touring airways or down to Jersey (as I did soon afterwards), you'll be stretching the limited capabilities of the kit. Some have ILSs, some don't. Some have working VORs, NDBs, some don't. Possibly not the best place to choose an aircraft for a weekend away if you think the wx is going to be lousy, but the emphasis is really on training and local touring in good wx.

Local geography is horrific. If you don't get good initial map and compass training, you're in trouble. 50%+ of calls to D&D by light aircraft are made by aircraft going into Welshpool. One mountain looks like another I guess and I have to admit I dialled up 121.5 on one occasion.

Short runway, challenging topography, lots of crosswinds.. nothing too difficult but it's stuff that sticks with you. The first 30 hours make or break you, they say, as a pilot, and I fly 757s now, 7 years on.

Lucky me.

Thank you Welshpool.

(Tony tried to sell me that Baron, WWW, when I was in the market for a light twin. He ermm forgot to mention its history which I later discovered and I ended up with something else as you know. Just a mild warning to my otherwise positive comments.. it's a business, like any other and they're out to make money, not be nice to you. Use the credit cards as WWW suggests, just in case :p )

[Julian]

Aha, so its cheap because half the kit in the aircraft does not work.

Do they actually get airborne?

[El Desperado]

That was in 1994. I don't know now, as I haven't been back for some years.

Unless you're doing some serious touring you don't need that kit anyway. There were enough aircraft to enable you to take one away for a long weekend if you wanted - only had to fly a minimum of two hours a day.

I did a big hour-building tour of Scotland in a PA28 which never let me down. They were perfectly safe, excellently maintained, but didn't have the trimmings of aircraft at more expensive clubs.

You pays yer money etc

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

We must meet up for a pint El Desperado - I get up to the frozen wastelands of the North quite often these days...

WWW