Norwegian Lack of Pilots [Archive]

RAT 5

28th Jun 2017, 08:38

And yet the major LoCo's are still ordering a/c to expand. Some how the equation is not balanced. Pilots think this will cause a significant rise in remuneration packages. The airlines will be scared like heck to do this because once the high salary is on the table to entice more pilots to join them it will be very difficult to remove it later on. As yearly increments are a % of salary their wage bill good be soaring for years. I know there are some imaginative remuneration constructions out there that could be adjusted i years to come, but pilots will not accept a reduction in income in the future. It will be a fine balance.
Many species went into rapid decline due to lack of food supply. Airline expansion, and their rising share price, could go the same way if they cancel flights and/or do not expand. In their medium term planning there is an assumption that the oft feared 'lack of pilots' will never happen. That can only be avoided by either the industry as a whole improving the T's & C's, or there being a jungle war to entice pilots to the highest payer away others. However, for that to succeed the beneficiary has to have enough training capacity to accept such an influx. That will be a huge bottle neck.
Airlines that have a large retirement bulge in 1 year at the same time a having a huge recruitment burst to both replace the retirees and expansion will have the worst problems. You can't pluck simulators & training captains off the trees.

Enzo999

28th Jun 2017, 08:47

Not a single pilot was laid off over the past winter or even offered reduced working.

This summer's shortage is less to do with poor forward planning and more to do with a wider (quality) pilot shortage in the industry, Ryanair are also having to cancel flights.

Its a viscous circle, crews hitting max hours, insufficient training sectors, bottle necks in CRC checks, Licensing, additional sim training for US operations and a lot of new aircraft.

Weirdly though BA are having no such issues, wonder why?

Scuderia46

28th Jun 2017, 09:00

They still refuse to give out decent contracts and try to run the airline with the minimal amount of people. Well done Norwegian. They are lucky that the fuel prices are still low otherwise it would get very very difficult. Although with their massive debt.......

Piltdown Man

28th Jun 2017, 09:35

If there is a REAL shortage of experienced pilots, I just hope those who do accept positions in these companies hold out for a very extortionate package. Just to balance the risible terms offered when the boot is on the other foot. Let's show them how expensive "low cost" is when it comes to people.

Denti

28th Jun 2017, 11:04

There is no real pilot shortage at all. However, there might be a certain shortage of terms and conditions that appeal to experienced pilots. What some airlines in europe do not realise, that especially on the captains market they actually do compete with chinese airlines which offer european bases, working half a year at twice to three times the pay. And of course they do compete with european airlines that do offer better terms and conditions as well. Although those usually do not hire DECs, they can and do train internally.

Brix

28th Jun 2017, 11:29

In the place I am working at the moment, there is a very noticeable pilot shortage. The wet lease factor is at 19%, the sickness rate is 15% and everybody is flying 900 hours this year. All companies do about it is requiring more and more compromises from the pilots councils and the unions, if such things don't exist, they just do it. FY seems to have lost a considerable amount of pilots this year.

IMHO the airlines are still arrogant enough to employ "the right people". I don't know if authorities or the carriers are to blame, but age discrimination in China is a fact.

Parkbremse

28th Jun 2017, 11:34

Weirdly though BA are having no such issues, wonder why?

Well they have other issues, like fixing broken customer relations and making up for 100s of million GPB in losses due to their IT Desaster a couple weeks back :E

Enzo999

28th Jun 2017, 12:06

Agreed, although I think you know the point I was making. Companies that provide their pilots with decent T and Cs are not struggling for pilots. And whilst IAG are making 1.5 billion in profits you will have a hard time convincing the investors BA have "issues".

VJW

28th Jun 2017, 13:19

Enzo don't you complain about BA on the BA Thread?

Enzo999

28th Jun 2017, 13:43

Yeah I sure do! I never said BA were perfect simply that they don't struggle to get pilots and the reason for that is obvious when compared to Norwegian. My discontent with SOME aspects of life at BA are well documented on the other thread, this is not the place to repeat them. As I said before decent employers are not struggling to get staff, make of that what you will.

Parkbremse

28th Jun 2017, 14:01

Not involved in Shorthaul but right now, Norwegian Longhaul is overflowing with applications, Recruitment is far from desperate to find pilots, in fact they can pick and choose who they invite or not, as it should be. Likewise, simply having the hours does not entitle you to a job on the 787, although some individuals feel that way because its Norwegian and then wonder why they get turned down.

Can we now therefore conclude, by your logic, for everyone on the platform here that Norwegian is a decent employer? And please spare me the agency straw man argument crap...

Doppio

28th Jun 2017, 14:24

Can we now therefore conclude, by your logic, for everyone on the platform here that Norwegian is a decent employer? And please spare me the agency straw man argument crap...

HAHAHAHA!!!!

despegue

28th Jun 2017, 15:02

Parkbremse,

Utter tosh.
They are also desperate on the B787.
Enough applications, but barely any from experienced pilots, let alone those with the official requirements.
Captain applications with Widebody glass cockpit experience: almost nothing, those who apply get the job.

MaverickPrime

28th Jun 2017, 15:14

I would hazard a guess that the reason they are 'short' on pilots is because they can't find enough people with the required enthusiastic, green type, charismatic personality to pass the BS selection processes.

It's seems it doesn't matter how well your sim goes if you can't demonstrate a time you delivered excellent customer service, in fact you might not even be offered a sim if you can't answer that question :sad:. IMHO, recruitment and selection format is one thing Ryanair got right!

annakm

28th Jun 2017, 15:20

Really?

FTEJerez cadets selected by OSM to join Norwegian Airlines as First Officers ? FTEJerez | News (http://ftejerez.com/news/ftejerez-cadets-selected-by-osm-to-join-norwegian-airlines-as-first-officers/)

hapzim

28th Jun 2017, 15:55

Supply and demand, t & c's slashed over the years, now if you want experienced crew a need to pay premium $ and also offer lifestyle working patterns by airlines, as those with experience also have a life outside of aviation. Aircraft on the ground with no crew are the only tool that awakens the bean counters or middle upper management having to account to owners/shareholders why their expensive aircraft are parked up.

JaxofMarlow

28th Jun 2017, 16:07

Can we now therefore conclude, by your logic, for everyone on the platform here that Norwegian is a decent employer? And please spare me the agency straw man argument crap...

You really are a funny chap.

Nightstop

28th Jun 2017, 16:13

It made me chuckle recently pre dawn when a very arrogant D8 TRI/TRE marched through the Crawley SIM coffee shop (with fledgling interviewees in tow) and ordered me (sipping my Late) to get a move on and join the group for the Interview. "Piss off" I said, I work for a real LCC.

JW411

28th Jun 2017, 16:58

Good for you; that's another job that you needn't bother to apply for when the :mad: hits the fan.

It is usually better to be polite at least in the aviation world.

OutsideCAS

28th Jun 2017, 17:18

It is, but then the ego of some TRI/TRE's can be astonishingly poor. Said chap shouldn't have just assumed Nightstop was there to attend interview. As you come down from the hallowed lofty heights, you can also meet others going up. Two ways to look at things. Just saying.

CaptainProp

29th Jun 2017, 00:12

The majority of European airlines would rather slow down, or completely stop, their expansion plans than offer proper terms and conditions to their crew.

captplaystation

29th Jun 2017, 06:20

Regretably, you are not far off the mark there. . . .

In respect of Norwegian, the "fairy-dust" has well & truly blown away, & the great unwashed have wakened up to the fact that embittered ex employees don't issue warnings here to be merely confrontational, but actually with the best of intentions to help their fellow pilots NOT to embroil themselves in a ship that is slowly losing its way (certainly in terms of being seen as a decent employer)

samca

29th Jun 2017, 06:30

The truth is that the European Lowcost companies didn't copy the Southwest model completely... only one part

Flocks

29th Jun 2017, 08:25

Hello guys

Just asking, I know Norwegian is not the best, but could be better than my present position (dash 8 captain in Uk)

I found this online
We offer the opportunity for a permanent position.
Competitive terms & conditions.
Roster planned 1 month in advance. (5 Days On / 4 Days Off)
Diversified flying on a modern fleet.
ID tickets after 3 months.
Minimum of 12 days off per month.
Vacation: per Norwegian Law.
Sick Leave: per Norwegian Law.

Is that really true the 5days on 4 days off ? Does pilot fly max FTL like I heard ? (In my airline, I m limited to 750hr a year, but far less days off than 5 on 4 off ... More 5 on 3 off 5 on 2 off.

Thanks

Gulf Julliet Papa

29th Jun 2017, 08:43

Can't speak for Norwegian but Ryanair achieves 850hrs some years with a 5/4 or even 5/5 roster so perfectly plausible

november.sierra

29th Jun 2017, 11:00

No 5-4 roster anywhere but in Scandinavia! Totally variable roster with 12 days off is all you'll be guaranteed and expect to work hard!

A 5-4-5-3 roster will be TRIALLED at LGW and FCO later in the year, but with no guarantees that this will become a permanent fixture.

The 5-4 roster is one thing the company would like to do away with ASAP and one of the reasons the Scandinavia based pilots went on strike. It's been made crystal clear again and again that 5-4 will not happen at the Euro bases!

samca

29th Jun 2017, 11:53

So yes, they prefer to cancel flights

https://www.thelocal.dk/20170627/were-back-on-schedule-norwegian-after-pilot-shortage-cancellations

Flap Inhibit

29th Jun 2017, 21:02

The one thing, which makes the possible lack of competent pilots especially bad for Norwegian is the shear net debt of the company. The debt being over 2,3 billion. Almost equal to the turnover of the whole company last year. And when compared to the rival LCCs: Ryanair don't have any net debt and Easy have only around 200 million. As it was pointed lately in an article in the ecomics section, Norwegian can't afford large disruptions in their operations, like for instance strike actions etc., because they have around 400 million worth of loans to sort out in the current year alone. So I think it is definitely a case of all or nothing for Norwegian. They have to attract the pilots somehow or they can put sign on the door already and just give up. Especially because the whole business plan relies on expansion.

Direct Bondi

30th Jun 2017, 06:51

Of course Norwegian is short of pilots.

Pilots will not apply and be subjected to Norwegian’s gross hypocrisy, which may adversely affect their lives.

Pilots also prefer airline employment to service industry temporary employment. Read a sample contract. Even better, have a labor law attorney read it for you.

The EU Commission report on the Norwegian/OSM merger and its convolutions can be read here:-

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/mergers/cases/decisions/m7949_400_3.pdf

Exploring the direct employment circumvention is tantamount to following the rabbit hole of the Matrix. You can take the blue pill, or red, Kool-Aid pill.

777-200LR

30th Jun 2017, 08:38

Jonnyknoxville

30th Jun 2017, 09:37

heard it through the grapevine that they are also failing to crew their US 737MAX operation with the FAA pilots they were looking for . Word is that they are now going to crew the MAX with EU pilots based temporarily in Europe

Kim Jong Il

30th Jun 2017, 09:58

They'll probably start a Wedding Agency for single American ladies to marry an attractive European pilot in order to obtain the needed Working Permits.

Northern Monkey

30th Jun 2017, 10:26

hahaha very good!

bafanguy

30th Jun 2017, 10:29

heard it through the grapevine that they are also failing to crew their US 737MAX operation with the FAA pilots they were looking for

Well, this is sure a buzz kill and isn't likely helping their efforts(and isn't there a training bond ?):

"If FAA, validation & conversion to EASA is required during the first 2 years. (Pilots will be assisted to obtain)"

The mere thought of slaying that dragon would make me want to lie down on the couch and watch reruns of Gilligan's Island.

777-200LR

30th Jun 2017, 14:39

When the Captain base salary at the 737 MAX bases is what a 5 year FO makes in most non regional US airlines, its no wonder they are going to struggle to find enough guys. Add to that you basically have to live in the base city as there is still no jumpseat/staff ID agreements to get to you home on days off

samca

30th Jun 2017, 18:41

Funny thing here si how well they hide everything. How many time It's gonna takes the truth to arrive the passengers? One day, one week, one month...

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2017/06/29/union-norwegian-broke-contract/

Aloha_KSA

30th Jun 2017, 19:16

momo95

30th Jun 2017, 19:26

I thought it was established a long time ago that Norwegian guys were either in unfortunate circumstances (be it family at home and they've had enough pollution in China), or indeed they just lacked self respect.

I fail to see how any self respecting pilot would sign up to their pay alone, forget even the conditions. It is insulting to even read them. This is coming from a student pilot (thankfully managed to secure a respectable enough contract ... one where i'm paid a decent amount for my first years at least).

Point of the matter is that if they offered good conditions, they would not be struggling.

Things are pretty bad when you have even student pilots who would pull the plug on the career if it meant joining your company.

Parkbremse

30th Jun 2017, 22:58

9000 hour pilot with 3000 hours PIC on 737NG current, qualified, no dings. JSFSAG I put in an app 5 months ago, took their silly video game test.. No word since... Either they are arrogant, stupid, or disorganized. Seriously?! Best of luck Norwegian. You've painted a very clear picture for me of your ops and your attitude towards professional pilots. You must be smoking more than just the fish up there.

Exactly the point I was making. Some people think they are entitled to a job in Norwegian because they fulfill the basic requirements and judging from the attitude displayed here, the selection team did a pretty good job. Norwegian has enough applications and they can and do select who they want, as does every other airline on the planet.

And then you have guys like Nightstop, the great communicator who not only, despite his impeccable social skills, couldn't resist being extremely rude to a Norwegian guy making a mistake but who also feels thats totally acceptable and brags about his achievement on the forum here. Please continue working for your real LCC, you will not be missed.

Even more hilarious is that student pilot guy momo95, who has literally achieved nothing aviation wise except for being selected into a cadet program (good for him) telling now people with years of experience and thousands of hours they lack self respect, which is in fact really insulting but so ridiculous at the same time that I had good laugh about it.

Sometimes you just gotta love pprune.

momo95

1st Jul 2017, 00:33

How did you come to the conclusion I've "achieved nothing aviation wise"? I'm genuinely interested. Have you assumed that because I'm a student pilot it means I had no life prior to it? I had a choice to continue in my previous aviation related role with very promising future prospects. However, I wanted to fly for a living and so left my role, that burning thing called the flying bug took over eventually.

But contracts like Norwegian? I would have stayed in my previous role, earnt a respectable amount and bought my own bloody plane to fly on weekends.

Yes. You really do have to love pprune :rolleyes:

Something I'm already seeing is the apparent tendency to attack one another when there is even a suggestion of malpractice. "Just be glad they're paying us" appears to be the motto for many. No wonder the likes of Norwegian are able to run riot, and no wonder those on the outside (those who would make good pilots) are no longer coming in their droves. Not everyone is so desperate to become a pilot, make no mistake. Obviously those who are haven't got the correct % of suitable airline individuals among their ranks. This leading to Norwegian unable to crew flights as has been reported.

They're trying to offer McDonald's pay and conditions whilst setting the selection bar at a surgeon's level. May it haunt them.

SeaBreeze1

1st Jul 2017, 12:14

Even more hilarious is that student pilot guy momo95, who has literally achieved nothing aviation wise except for being selected into a cadet program (good for him)

Congratulations for writing possibly the most condescending post in prune's history. You really are a fantastic advertisement for your company and clearly a valuable asset - I bet they're so proud of you. You must be a dream to fly with....

The offering from NAS is :mad:, hence why you don't have enough pilots. Get over yourself.

FlipFlapFlop

1st Jul 2017, 15:08

To be fair to Parkbremse he is about the only one on any of the numerous Norwegian threads who is prepared to stick his neck above the parapet and defend them. Usually done rudely but at least he sticks to his guns which no one else seems willing to do. Must be lonely though.

annakm

1st Jul 2017, 16:12

As is with human nature, the most vocal are those who have a grievance. The majority, who are presumably happy, don't have the need to go on and on and on and on...

JW411

1st Jul 2017, 16:29

FlipFlapFlop

1st Jul 2017, 17:01

As is with human nature, the most vocal are those who have a grievance. The majority, who are presumably happy, don't have the need to go on and on and on and on... Possibly, but the threads dealing with Jet2 Easy Mon BA Thomson and even Ryanair always have dozens defending and supporting.

BehindBlueEyes

1st Jul 2017, 17:02

annakm:

"The majority, who are presumably happy, don't have the need to go on and on and on ..."

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I know quite a few Norwegian pilots and none of them appear to be particularly unhappy with their lot.

I also concur, and furthermore, I would be interested to understand why some of those vocal individuals have such a venomous, almost pathological hatred of this airline? Would it be something to do with the circumstances in which they personally parted company with their former employer? Most of us who have made a mistake working for the wrong people just move on and put it down to a bad experience; not continue to launch a continued and personal vendetta.

FlipFlapFlop

1st Jul 2017, 17:10

I guess that is possibly true as well but this thread is about Norwegian's lack of pilots. I think we all know who you refer to, but there are not many that hold up the Norwegian defence for their employment and recruitment practices and their terms and conditions. I thought that one of the main issues related to the view that you could not take Norwegian to an industrial tribunal because you weren't employed by them, but I might have misunderstood.

FRogge

1st Jul 2017, 19:43

I'm pretty sure NAI is not the worst place for a cadet pilot to start his career. Momo95, you have to get back on to earth. If you found something better, that's nice for you but I would say for the most of pilots straight out of school; it's not that bad!
Doesn't pretty much every LoCo airline offer the permanent base after employment?? It's wrong, but that the way it goes until enough people stand up and don't accept any other base than what they want.

INKJET

1st Jul 2017, 20:50

Its no secret that Norwegian are again short of pilots for this summer as indeed are Ryanair who are also cancelling flights.

The problem is 30%+ growth and despite a massive ramp up in training capacity there are just too many bottlenecks, some unforeseen other more obvious.

The anti Norwegian brigade fall into broadly two camps, those employed, but sacked for having Tourettes on the company intranet site and those who applied but didn't' get called.

Having worked for/flown on behalf of Norwegian for 5+ years i can only say this, they have never missed a salary payment, for the past two years I have been in taper relief for pension contributions (£150K=+) I have had to use the QRH twice in anger.

5 years running its won best European LoCo award with skytrax and 3 years running the best world wide LoCo long haul airline.

95% of people I fly with are happy with their lot in NAI

The two main anti- Norwegian posters on here where both sacked by Norwegian and did not win any industrial tribunal

Its not perfect of course, but with 130 aircraft and a willingness to go for it there are bound to be frustrations, its clear that 99% of posters don't work for Norwegian, the 99% of those that do laugh at some off the idiotic comments on here...

No one is forcing you to join Norwegian, but we'd welcome those that wish to get involved and have good craic

EFISchap

1st Jul 2017, 21:35

Norwegian are hiring!

zero/zero

2nd Jul 2017, 06:06

Maybe that says more about you than it does about Norwegian.

GMC1500

2nd Jul 2017, 07:36

I flew with a fellow capt a few months ago who was leaving ek to join norwegian for a FLL base.
He was very anti ek/dubai, so he's probably happy there, but what he told me about the rosters and pay didn't seem very attractive to me.

DXman

2nd Jul 2017, 16:40

Anybody waiting to join Norwegian for the FLL base?

shedsd330

2nd Jul 2017, 19:22

Are you? Sweet shiney widebody bro.

trancada

2nd Jul 2017, 21:10

Lack of pilots , also in B787.
For example today EUROATLANTIC a Portuguese ACMI airline is flying with its 777 LGW-JFK

Direct Bondi

3rd Jul 2017, 09:53

Norwegian’s gross mismanagement of pilot resources now raises safety fears from its own pilot group:-

“We do not want this extra pressure to work, because they may be tempted to fly even if they are tired” - Link:

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/frykter-norwegian-tilbud-om-firedobbel-lonn---slitne-piloter-kan-bli-fristet-til-a-fly/68382196

Despite this “extra pressure” and other dissatisfaction, there is a reason Norwegian Group airlines do not have any disgruntled employees – they do not have any employees!

Therefore, it is not possible to lose, nor even bring an Employment Tribunal claim against a Norwegian airline - as one sycophant on this thread would have you believe.

Norwegian is regularly in the media with labor disputes involving crews at one of its locations. Recent grievances by Norwegian’s crews based in Spain, Italy and the US have made the headlines. The Scandinavian group has an ongoing “real employer” court case.

Norwegian’s atypical labor scheme is described by the US DOT as “novel and complex” (read the contract). EU Transport Ministers recently met to discuss how;

“Atypical employment can affect the safety of airlines” – Link:

https://eurocockpit.be/news/eu-transport-ministers-discuss-atypical-employment

Atypical employment permitted the summary dismissal, before any regulatory investigation, of four Norwegian long haul flight attendants in JFK after they raised safety concerns. That matter is far from concluded. Alarmingly, there are other examples of Norwegian’s managers taking punitive action against those raising safety concerns. All permitted without recourse via an atypical employment scheme.

Increasing numbers have been enlightened to Norwegian’s gross hypocrisy and unsavory methods in its “management” of flight crews. This is evidenced by Norwegian’s present calamitous situation leaving passengers stranded and distraught due to a lack of pilots.

RAT 5

3rd Jul 2017, 11:05

What is the difference between NAI's Atypical employment schemes and other competitor's imaginative non-employment schemes? NAI are not the only one with many non-employees, so what is happening about the other schemes?

Reading the 'eurocockpit' link above there is comment about a debatable possible reduction in safety with large contingents of Atypical self-employed pilots. There were hints about risk taking and decision making. That is questionable, but what is very likely is those on zero-hour contracts will be tempted to work when not fully fit. No guaranteed income, no work no pay, it is not difficult to understand guys pushing their own boundaries to pay off debt and pay bills.

Elephant and Castle

3rd Jul 2017, 19:14

Aloha KSA, same here. 2000 PIC and I'm current but told to XXXX off by Norwegian! Insane!

Really? anyone that does not hire you is insane? Wow. You are one overconfident cat

INKJET

3rd Jul 2017, 20:24

BA are not expanding at 30% growth is part of the answer+ they have Jeremy Corbyn's magic money tree called LHR

Akrapovic

4th Jul 2017, 17:43

Well, I have 7000 hours 737 NG time with 3000 PIC and my application was rejected! What a joke! .... Well done Norwegian

You had 3000 hours PIC last month!

FlipFlapFlop

4th Jul 2017, 20:28

And what did you expect it to be a month later?

captplaystation

5th Jul 2017, 15:27

INKJET,

No Tourettes on RedNose, fortunately my command of our (?) Native tongue is eloquent enough to avoid that error, but an unhealthily honest presentation of the facts, in stark contradiction to the company lies/propaganda that were being fed to the BrownNoses, was evidently too difficult for them to counter, so, Adios ! . . . . otherwise, correct.

As for not winning any industrial tribunal, the jury (or more accurately Judge ) is literally still out on that one. . . and that is only Part 1 of 2 . . . as you may remember, if you know so much detail, I was also employed in PSN & that employment hasn't even been formally rescinded, never mind subject to an internal disciplinary procedure, let alone industrial tribunal . . . . the Fat Lady hasn't even picked up the concert listing. . . . . .

Skipping Classes

5th Jul 2017, 20:06

and I can tell you once again - the real problem is the PILOTS who accept these kind of contracts. You complain on pprune and then just sign the contract and go to work and the executives just laugh at your stupidity. Wake up!

president

5th Jul 2017, 23:32

I'm just curious now. If you all consinder this company so crap, why then apply ? And if you left, why waste your life bitching about it?

Right Engine

7th Jul 2017, 05:17

I'm just curious now. If you all consinder this company so crap, why then apply ? And if you left, why waste your life bitching about it?

Only contented people are allowed on the forum? This is a revelation!

A and C

7th Jul 2017, 06:37

Thirty five years in the flying business and five + with Norwegian and it is the whole business that I am sick of, Norwegian is slightly above par for the game with there being a number of operators I have worked for who are a lot worse.

They are certainly not helped by their unusual employment model but that being said they have lasted a lot longer than the last two companies I worked for so from a personal point of view at least my bank account is ahead of the game.

Most of Norwegian's detractors have never worked for the company, Captainplaystation I have some sympathy for as he was around for a while but was a victim of his own Internet opinions , Bondi however was only with the company for a month or so and irregularities had been found in his career history and so was asked to leave.

On the whole I think the Norwegian management are deeply aware of the mistakes that they made a few years back when they laid off pilots over the winter as this decision has come back to haunt them and cost them far more than it saved them.

So to sum it all up in a business that is not what it once was Norwegian is slightly above average in terms of T's & C's and a long way from being bad place to work, but to put it into perspective it is NOT the dire place that it's leading detractor would have you think.

Direct Bondi

7th Jul 2017, 07:22

A and C;

If you stop telling lies about me, I'll stop telling the truth about Norwegian.

OMDB30R

7th Jul 2017, 08:33

A and C

That's interesting, I hope Direct Bondi hasn't been falsifying documents/hours etc, then Norwegian would be absolutely correct to fire him/her.

INKJET

7th Jul 2017, 08:53

Spot on A&C it was sad to loose Captainplaystation but the fact is the number of pilots asked to leave is minimal I know of only 3 or 4 in 5+ years.

RATS

No zero hour contracts at Norwegian thankfully + sick pay +paid holidays and (UK SH/LH 738 fleet) get private health and a pension, no rostered positioning on days off, B&B hotels provided out of base (in base if required on consecutive deep night flights) sim is duty time ditto all ground school.

Sure there is always room for improvements

directmisbi

7th Jul 2017, 09:49

Fully agree with inkjet.
Disregard bondi and PlayStation.
Decent terms and conditions. Im FO and taking home 4700 euros pr month. Private health care, pension, holidays and sick days, LOL, medical, license all paid for.
Possibilities on the max are fourthcoming for all, so are tempo basings in the Caribian in the winter or US bases for summer. Not for all, but if you are ryan I say come on over(many are, once again)
A problem could be basing, you have to be a bit flexible in the beginning but once you have gained a bit on senority it helps to get the preferred base and staying there.

samca

7th Jul 2017, 09:50

By the way...

Yesterday the Norwegian shares in exchange market dropped 7,7 % due to massive sales. Seems to be there was a rumour about resignation of Financial Manager...

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/shares-in-norwegian-air-drop-after-finance-chief-resigns-1.3145413?mode=amp

FlipFlapFlop

7th Jul 2017, 11:14

adolf hucker

7th Jul 2017, 14:03

Oh dear, seems Bondi's credibility has taken a hit. Looks like his high horse is actually a pit pony.

I know a fair few Norwegian 737 pilots. Some are unhappy but most are not looking to move just as you might find at any other airline. I know of 1 captain who took home £10k in a month (including working a few days off) on top of the medical cover, loss of license, pension, staff travel. Not too bad for the supposed pariah of the industry. He certainly doesn't hate the company but then again he wasn't fired for irregularities.

Say Mach Number

7th Jul 2017, 14:40

Just to be clear I have no beef with Norwegian and have flown with them quite a few times as a punter and I thought they were thoroughly excellent to fly with.

However INKJET mentioned 4 words in his post that were very scary to me;

"consecutive deep night flights"

A little spoilt perhaps in my little imperfect world but that what happens when you get used to gentleman hours perhaps.

Yeager

7th Jul 2017, 14:59

Maxfli

7th Jul 2017, 16:58

CFO of Norwegian, Frode Foss has decided to leave the company. Vice President Investor Relations, Tore Østby, will take on the position for an interim period.

Foss has been the CFO of Norwegian since the company was established in 2002.

"I am very grateful for the work Frode Foss has done for Norwegian throughout all these years. He has done a great job for Norwegian since the company was established, and it is understandable that he, after 15 years as CFO, wants to concentrate on other tasks,” says Norwegian’s CEO Bjørn Kjos.

"It’s been a fantastic journey and I’m pleased that Bjørn Kjos let me take part in building the company to what it is today. Now it’s time for me to explore new ventures. I wish Norwegian all the best for the future,” says Frode Foss.

In response to the news, Norwegian shares dropped by 8.3% to 222.4 Norwegian crowns.

annakm

7th Jul 2017, 16:58

Twiglet1

7th Jul 2017, 18:10

B&B hotels provided out of base (in base if required on consecutive deep night flights)

In the U.K. - a taxable benefit?

Enzo999

7th Jul 2017, 18:22

INKJET

7th Jul 2017, 20:37

All pilots in the UK are on PAYE with tax & NI deducted at source, of course some are non UK nationals and have to sort out the bi laterals but they pay UK NI & Tax.

99% of out base HOTAC is in other countries so there is no benefit in kind, EASA FTl's allow consecutive deep nights, however in order to reduce travel time and maximise rest a local hotel will be provided on request.

Bondi is on a mission against Norwegian 99% of all of his posts are about norwegian and I've yet see one that is + nothing life is perfect, but trust me there is far far worse out there.

Their overriding objective is to dominate the LoCo long haul market with LGW at its centre, the European short haul market is very difficult to grow in because of the dominant carriers in the shape of FR and to a lesser extent easyJet

president

7th Jul 2017, 22:00

For those of you who have never flown for a legacy airline (despite their pitfalls too) - I FEEL SO, SO SORRY FOR YOU. You never went trough a real recruitment process, you never felt the pride of passing "the real thing".. YOU FREAKIN' JOINED the :mad: Norwegian. OMFG - so sorry for you ladies.

Haha what a joke. I'm on an average gross salary of around 16.000 euros+pension as LTC. I'm on salary step 4 of 12. I joined the airline 4 years ago as FO. What legacy airline in Europe could provide me with that ? I have been called for interview at SAS but didn't bother to even go there. The first year CPT salary here was better than the highest ever achievable salary there. Plus starting salary as FO was almost double at Norwegian. Sure you've got some perks that I couldn't care less about. I'm in it for time at home and money. The job itself, we can all agree, is THE SAME. You seem proud of you soon-to-be bankrupt legacy carrier. Feel free to have an opinion. But judging an airline job by the tail logo shows that you are either 22 years old or just incredibly stupid. I guess you are one of those idiots posting pics of yourself at work on Instagram and wearing company merchandise at home because you think it's cool. It's not. BUT if that makes you happy, good for you. So don't waste your time feeling sorry for us... We are doing more than ok here :-)

waterpau

7th Jul 2017, 23:19

is only just less than the tax free haven of Qatar.

Are you kidding? Starting salary for FOs in ME carriers are c. €11,000 per month at current exchange rates.

I gave up a day off about 12 months ago to attend a Norwegian roadshow. Initial presentation was inspiring, enough to think this was a gig worth considering. This was followed by the slide with the T&Cs..... Which was followed swiftly by a clash of chairs as folks dashed for the door.

Enzo999

8th Jul 2017, 06:14

Not even close! I was there 4 years ago and was making 4.5k a month in U.K. Pounds, they did provide accommodation on top but my take home pay was not that impressive. Exchange rates may have changed the situation slightly and rate may have gone up but they are not making 11,000 euros a month!

skyflyer737

8th Jul 2017, 09:17

Snapper5

8th Jul 2017, 13:21

Everyone is so obsessed with money ? What happened with lifestyle?
Can you go 75% with Norwegian?
Or do you work yourself to an early grave ?
I hope that my last words aren't "if only I earned more money"

172_driver

8th Jul 2017, 13:38

But judging an airline job by the tail logo shows that you are either 22 years old or just incredibly stupid.

president,

It was sarcasm.

Everyone up north with half an interest in the business knows Norwegian crew are on better money than SAS crew. Heck, if you join Cityjet you'll be making more than in SAS over the course of a career.

I hope Norwegian T&C stays so, for you. But as far as I am concerned if Norwegian at any time wants to pocket some more money, isn't there a good chance they'll just return you to the agency? Possibly offering you a new, reduced, contract in their next breath with a new agency? No union to hold it together. I am not well-versed with the ins and outs in Norwegian, but I am skeptical whenever someone hires people through agencies for permanent positions.

Now I do admit that SAS has seemingly also found a way around status-quo with their new 'SAS Ireland' The repercussions are yet to be seen.

Yeager

8th Jul 2017, 14:14

Oh, do you need 'higher' qualifications to join a legacy airline? I had no idea! Just out of interest, what would these specialist skills be then? :}

Recruitment process my dear. But WTF would you know, or care.

Yeager

8th Jul 2017, 14:17

Haha what a joke. I'm on an average gross salary of around 16.000 euros+pension as LTC. I'm on salary step 4 of 12. I joined the airline 4 years ago as FO. What legacy airline in Europe could provide me with that ? I have been called for interview at SAS but didn't bother to even go there. The first year CPT salary here was better than the highest ever achievable salary there. Plus starting salary as FO was almost double at Norwegian. Sure you've got some perks that I couldn't care less about. I'm in it for time at home and money. The job itself, we can all agree, is THE SAME. You seem proud of you soon-to-be bankrupt legacy carrier. Feel free to have an opinion. But judging an airline job by the tail logo shows that you are either 22 years old or just incredibly stupid. I guess you are one of those idiots posting pics of yourself at work on Instagram and wearing company merchandise at home because you think it's cool. It's not. BUT if that makes you happy, good for you. So don't waste your time feeling sorry for us... We are doing more than ok here :-)

Yes, the industry has gone down to the level of your type. The number you mention don't impress those of us who's been around for a tart bit longer than you Spiky hair. Nothing wrong with liking flying plebs around and being used as a bloody tool, that's precisely what these ****ty outfits like Norwegian and Ryanair are living off. Have fun bloke.

Fire and brimstone

8th Jul 2017, 16:14

Yet again an airline (actually admitting) to being short of pilots.

A 'lack of quality' in the market, no less.

So ...........

Where is the upward pressure on T&C's?

Where are the improved contracts?

Are the guys there being looked after and respected?

It's amazing that market forces never appear to have any effect on the conditions in the UK.

Now - how can this be?

Enzo999

8th Jul 2017, 17:57

Enzo - yes they are. Basic pay is QR22575, housing 13000, utilities & transportation 1800, flight pay for 70 block hrs 7280. Total Qatari Rials 44655. Exch rate = 4.15 to the Euro.

No tax so take home is €10760. Friends are earning this monthly. Am I missing something? I'm not saying to to Qatar but it seems these are the correct figures

Those figures have obviously increased since I left but you are still slightly off the mark. I make 70 hours 6300QR, the housing allowance you will never see if you stay in company apartments and if you rent privately you will have to add some (unless you share like uni stundents, not idea for people with families). So take home in your bank will be about 31,000QR which at your rate of 4.28 is 7300Euros, but try getting that rate, it will be closer to 4.5 which is 6680Euros, quite different to the 11,000 you quoted. I think your mates might be making it sound better than it actually is to justify living there.

Yorkshire_Pudding

8th Jul 2017, 18:05

All the ME3 pay roughly the same. At EK, opted out you would clear 46,000 dhs easily as FO, or £9,700 net. Mortgage on a nice small family house around £2,000 a month. House back home down south rented out for close to that which cancels out Dubai mortgage. But yes 11,000 euro is correct.

Enzo999

8th Jul 2017, 18:42

What can I say I must have miss read my payslips for all those years. Still with money like that the ME carriers must have people queuing round the block to join! Belive me or not, in 3 years I never once took home more than 5k (company accommodation and no house to rent down south). Anyway this is becoming a thread creep, back to Norwegian.

rumbpilot

8th Jul 2017, 18:52

the housing allowance you will never see if you stay in company apartments
if you don't consider housing allowance in the grand total then you have to substract the rent or mortgage you pay in uk from your BA pay to make an even comparison.

Direct Bondi

9th Jul 2017, 06:45

INKJET;

No mission, just replies regarding Norwegian’s labor scheme, operational irregularities, and response to personal attack chump posts.

As one of Norwegian’s apologists, even you will agree, the experienced pilots posting of their refusal by Norwegian may have one thing in common; they probably dared to ask for more details on the precarious terms and conditions. The clause enabling Norwegian to terminate pilot service contracts between airline and agency without notice, reason or recourse, may have caused early exits at the wonderland road shows. That particular clause, together with the Norwegian airline being the exclusive client, makes the “permanent employment” claim at best, disingenuous. Although some have had spectacular rises from F/O to LTC after just four years – perhaps assisted by office loitering. Incidentally, a LTC was giving a check onboard a Norwegian 787 when it departed illegally without the required number of crew (DY7006 JFK-ARN, reg: LNF). Consequently, a LTC title at Norwegian does not impress.

Apparently, Norwegian’s UK contingent is the only group content. As you know, there are regular media reports of labor disputes between Norwegian and its crews in Italy, Spain and the US. The Scandinavia group has an ongoing court case to obtain a legal ruling the Norwegian airline is the real employer. Why hasn’t BALPA pursued this option for you and your LGW chums?

As for Norwegian taking over the long haul low-cost world, lets wait later this month for the response from the DOT to the petition by the ‘Labor Parties’ against the egregious decision of the Obama administration in granting Norwegian a permit. New legislation is also pending. Any claim of creating airline employment for pilots in the US is more akin to creating airline unemployment via a service provider employer – check US road show attendance figures.

On the positive side, Norwegian does have newer aircraft than some airlines – unfortunately, they do sometimes break at the most inappropriate times -

https://www.thesun.ie/news/1219648/norwegian-airs-new-low-fares-service-to-us-from-shannon-airport-has-shaky-start-as-flight-is-axed-one-day-after-launch/

To those Norwegian "employees" on this thread, please, I implore you, if you are tired or otherwise unfit, do not be enticed to fly by Norwegian’s offer of quadruple payments. Follow the advice of your pilot group, repeated below, and think of the safety of your passengers! –

Pilot-leder sier sikkerhet er grunnen når Norwegian-piloter sier nei til «superlønn» - Frykter Norwegian-tilbud om firedobbel lønn: - Slitne piloter kan bli fristet til å fly - Dagbladet (http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/frykter-norwegian-tilbud-om-firedobbel-lonn---slitne-piloter-kan-bli-fristet-til-a-fly/68382196)

Giddy-up….

president

9th Jul 2017, 10:01

Not trying to impress anyone here, it's funny that you think so :-) If you haven't been sacked and actually like it here you are trying to IMPRESS? Haha! But why should colleagues considering to join only read sad stories of people who go sacked for misconduct ? It's lightyears from the average career path which looks more like mine. I'm saying that everyone doesn't dislike it here, and was wondering what legacy airline in Europe offers so much better conditions. A question still unattended. In fact it's quite seldom I fly with people looking for other jobs. The only guys I know off who left, either failed their upgrade or was offered a job at home. In an airline that grows at this speed it's normal for opportunities to arise sooner than at legacy airlines. I do perfectly understand why a 22 year old would go to KLM, in the long run its probably better. But being in my mid 30's I fail to see what other great jobs are on offer in Europe? I'm sick of sucking everyone in the office to rise, so please let me know. Share your wise insight, or stop moaning about your personal failures. It's actually a bit sad and tiring to listen to.

Payscale

9th Jul 2017, 11:12

Does Norwegian guarantee a specific base. E.g. if I get hired intending to go to FCO would I risk being given LGW after signing the contract?

Parkbremse

9th Jul 2017, 16:49

On LH, FCO is the only base you can get hired directly and it will be stated in your contract. LGW will be the base for everyone else, you can bid afterwards for a different base with your chances of getting it depending on seniority of course.

You will get whats stated in your contracts, no changing after you sigend unless you bid for something else.

uchy

10th Jul 2017, 04:57

Which bases are available at the moment?

Parkbremse

10th Jul 2017, 06:52

Base in Longhaul are LGW, BKK, AMS, CDG, BCN, FCO (later this year), FLL. Not every base is available though in every bidding round and chances getting into AMS are zero at the moment.

samca

10th Jul 2017, 08:18

let's speak serious. Everybody knows that the chance to get some of these bases are 0,0000. BCN? Forget about it...

uchy

10th Jul 2017, 08:23

And bases available for the 737?

a-ricky-town

10th Jul 2017, 13:13

Hi guys,

I have decided to explore the possibility of applying non type rated 787 first officer. I have over 3000hrs and work for the orange clockwork based in France.

Is it that bad long haul as well? Anyone here could give me some info about it?

Please feel free to PM me.

Twiglet1

10th Jul 2017, 16:19

Direct Bondi

This is an interesting thread but anything from you i just tend to scroll through without reading it. I suspect i'm not alone......Sorry

OMDB30R

10th Jul 2017, 17:50

Twiglet your not alone, I do the same now that in the previous posts it's been revealed that Direct Bondi was a fraud and terminated rightly so.

Direct Bondi

10th Jul 2017, 20:42

OMDB30R;

Please provide details to support your defamatory claim.

It is my understanding the Norwegian contract provides for immediate termination without a notice period in such circumstances.

Tread carefully.

lear999wa

10th Jul 2017, 21:19

Well, I feel that I should chime in.
Having worked for Norwegian for 3 years, I tend to agree with most of what Bondi and Captainplaystation are saying about Norwegian. Furthermore, I can say that it is disingenuous to suggest that Norwegian captains are making 16k per month. Yes there might be a few Mgmt type pilots who are on that type of money. But as a regular non-Scandinavian based captain the pay is more along the lines of 10k per month, or even less if based in the US or Italy.
And as to Norwegian asking pilot to leave (fired), I think that the number was around 50 just a few winters ago.
Having said all of this, I did enjoy my time in Norwegian. And if it wasn't for all the broken promises, I would have stayed.

INKJET

11th Jul 2017, 05:16

Two winters ago there were indeed some winter layoffs, agreed along way from ideal to put it mildly, they were winter layoff and all had the opportunity to rejoin but i don't blame them one bit for not doing so and this has and still is harming Norwegians ability to recruit.

With the winter Caribbean based flying program and Chicago charter flying program the European winter low season is now better balanced.

Direct Bondi

11th Jul 2017, 07:24

All were not given the opportunity to rejoin after winter layoffs. Norwegian took that opportunity to do some cleansing, probably of those previously complaining of crew rostering, non-compliance with the Master Seniority List and operational shortcomings.

It is not acceptable to excuse Norwegian’s past transgressions with a purported “better balanced” current state of affairs. As I have stated, due to Norwegian’s atypical labor scheme, affected individuals, then and now, have no recourse against their “real employer”, the respective Norwegian airline division.

Things may be improving, but this is associated more with Norwegian's pilots and cabin crew recognizing the critical need for union representation with the airline, not their service provider employer. I still cannot fathom why UK based crews pay union dues to BALPA for representation to a staffing agency. Why do members not insist BALPA seek a legal ruling the Norwegian airline is the real employer? - As achieved by Norwegian’s US based cabin crew:

“By the direction of the National Mediation Board, I am enclosing the certification, in the matter of representation of Flight Attendants, employees of Norwegian Air Shuttle ASA” – direct link:

http://cabinassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/R-7461-Closing-letter.pdf

Norwegian has the opportunity to take action against any post I have made. I contacted the owners of this website, Internet Brands, only yesterday.

Back to the topic of this thread; Norwegian’s crew shortages continue, with another flight cancelled and passengers left stranded and distraught, simply by a staff sickness event:

http://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/norwegian-airs-belfast-providence-flight-13302883

EASA GM2 ORO.AOC 135(a), details the competence of nominated airline Post Holders – and EU 376/2014 details non-punitive safety reporting, a regulation I suggest those flying for Norwegian become familiar.

Swept

11th Jul 2017, 18:03

Direct Bondi

Stop hijacking threads and set up your own 'rant thread' about Norwegian. This thread is about "Lack of Pilots' not "Let's Deride Norwegian." It is also in the 'Terms and Endearment' section which means most of us are looking for some helpful information about progressing in the aviation industry not incessant criticism or abuse!

You clearly have been shafted by someone in NOR and have an axe to grind as well as having far too much time on your hands to invest in such a low-level subversive operation as this.

I, frankly, am very bored with your highly well considered and well-prepared information and suggest you retrain to be a litigation lawyer.

Your drivel will not stop me considering a career with NOR because I talk to the individuals who already work for them and base my decision on their testimony. Some of them appear to be very happy, some have a few issue.....just like all pilots I know with EK, EY, BA, RYN etc etc

Give your keyboard a rest fella!

OMDB30R

11th Jul 2017, 19:02

sidtheesexist

11th Jul 2017, 19:30

If any folks are tired of reading DBs posts, all you have to do is put him on your ignore list, and you will never see his text/comments again unless you choose to. So, as a very interested onlooker/browser, I cannot understand the vitriolic comments/personal abuse sent DBs way.

Enzo999

11th Jul 2017, 19:35

JaxofMarlow

11th Jul 2017, 20:37

Yet another round of half arsed Bondi attacks with the only basis for them being that some are bored of reading his posts. If you don't like them don't read them. If you disagree with the points he makes say so and why. If you think third party employment is a good idea and good for the industry or pilots careers then fine. Just say so.

Arewerunning

12th Jul 2017, 08:14

I am really surprised about the amount of negativity directly led to DirectBondi: I used some of the informations provided by him and published on this forum and could not be more greatful. My old lawyer (a totally clueless guy) managed to win my labour case partially thx to the informations found on pprune on Norwegian...

By the way: if anybody think that been fired is proof of misconduct, you don't belong in this business

Gigi777

12th Jul 2017, 11:12

let's speak serious. Everybody knows that the chance to get some of these bases are 0,0000. BCN? Forget about it...

Just wondering why there is no chances to get BCN base? Everybody want it? Big spanish community?
I'm considering applying as DEC 787 but with the view of being based in BCN or MAD if it ever open in the future.
Can anybody share some light on this?
Also, how is the interview process?

Thank you

Direct Bondi

13th Jul 2017, 09:45

We all should report him to the moderators and get this Direct Bondi banned from posting, it's not only repetitive but also quite irritating.
Direct Bondi you obviously have done something very bad in Norwegian, this is mentioned in previous posts, either give it a rest or try and move on, maybe write to Norwegian and apologise for your conduct and try and make amends and move on.

First; thank you for the posted and thousands of private messages of support.

The above highlighted quote is an example of how little some know of their employment contract and employment contracts in general. The self-declared ignorance of these chumps also questions their reasoning ability and by association, their command competence - if they are even flying.

Employment contracts permit instant dismissal without notice for misconduct. In such circumstances an individual would not be provided an LPC nor allowed to continue to fly the airline’s passengers up to the last day of any notice period.

The fact that some are resorting to such inventive and desperate responses, corroborates that no legitimate response is available to answer the abuses permitted by Norwegian’s complex and novel labor scheme. However, I do accept the scheme provides a source of income and aircraft rating currency until an opportunity to be employed by an airline arises.

There is a reason a respected newspaper in Norway, Dagens Naerlingsliv, DN, has referred to the Norwegian regime as:

“Kjos aircraft and Spinning Mill Ltd.” – “The boss and spin doctor”

http://www.dn.no/meninger/2016/07/08...g-spinneri-ltd (http://www.dn.no/meninger/2016/07/08/2122/Uten-filter/kjos-flymaskin-og-spinneri-ltd)

next…..(or not)

Direct Bondi

13th Jul 2017, 11:56

Thank you for your 'life energy' analysis. I almost choked on my tofu and celery smoothie in amusement.
There’s a tree in Crawley town centre that requires your attention.

Jonty

14th Jul 2017, 13:18

Interesting article in today's Times about Norwegian. Looks like the CFO has left under a cloud and the last quarter results went down very badly.
Interesting times, have they bitten off more than they can chew?

Enzo999

14th Jul 2017, 13:26

The magic money tree will come to the rescue.

adolf hucker

15th Jul 2017, 08:18

I really don't think Bondi is going to desist in his half-arsed mission to dissuade anyone from joining Norwegian. He's clearly an articulate but embittered individual with a fair bit of spare time which he has decided to devote to his mission. What else would he do that could provide such a sense of achievement? Perhaps he is not getting enough satisfaction from whatever his current employment might be.

Then again, perhaps I am doing him a disservice. Maybe he is a thoroughly altruistic person and is doing us all a great favour by repeatedly giving us the benefit of his unique insight. His 'thousands' (???) of messages of support would back up that view.

Either way, you can be fairly certain that any and all threads related to Norwegian will continue to be derailed and genuine requests for information will be 'answered' with his pompous, patronising and long-winded rhetoric. Perhaps he could do us all a favour and just become a politician.

Thad Jarvis

15th Jul 2017, 10:12

It doesn't take any level of rocket science to realise that Norwegian's package is very poor no matter what way you dress it up. They charge a fortune for a 787 rating and pay well below the going rate for captains..even when compared to LCCs. The rostering also looks grim and the level of contentment can probably be measured by the exodus to VS every time the opportunity arises. The only attraction is the 787 - and that novelety will wear off in months. It appears to be supported by sand-pit retirees willing to prostitute themselves back home. If this really isn't the case please enlighten us?

BluSdUp

15th Jul 2017, 11:28

There is many reasons why Norwegian is short of pilots.
I would go there if they wanted me and I got the base I prefer.
At least I dont have to by my own coffee and uniform!

Norwegian not being able to hire and train sufficient pilots , second year in a row is just pure stupidity.

The pay is for some of us not good enough , and here we are at the core problem:
Norwegian can not afford to pay what they do , never mind more.

Why? They had to sell a stack of Norwegian Bank stocks so as not to default on their loans.
The seat kilometer cost went up and are now way higher then any other loco.
The Director of Finance Mr Foss walked out the door with no notice one day.
So, promptly the stocks dropped 25% over 5 days!!
They are a buisness and are not making a profit.

I hope Norwegian makes it and start treating and paying Pilots better.
But,like all low cost startups it is a Ponzi sceam and some time it works and some times it dont.

Then there is the bet in Norwegian press that OLeary shall snap them up.
( Sorry , could not help myself.)

Yorkshire_Pudding

15th Jul 2017, 16:21

The airline had a debt to equity ratio of 0.1 ten years ago. This has increased to 9.6 in recent years.

I cant find any other airline with a debt equity ratio higher than 1. Average seems 0.6, Jet2 is 0.04!! Debt has to be serviced.

I have to say Norwegian reminds me of the original Air Europe in the late 80s.

Thad Jarvis

15th Jul 2017, 19:58

Is there demand though? Anytime I've compared them to others across the Atlantic they've been anything but cheap. Their premium product of usually dearer than VS and I'm pretty sure it's not better.

Snapper5

16th Jul 2017, 06:45

NAS lease all of the aircraft and have an astonishing amount of debt , Monarch with there new Boeings have bought them cash in hand and will be leasing them back (have no idea how this works) which releases huge amounts of cash , it's what Ryanair do .
Supposedly they will be starting LH in around 2 years as well

Thomas Cook will inevitably go through a Ts & Cs mill very soon , heard that the main company are not really interested in the airline itself

FlipFlapFlop

16th Jul 2017, 11:54

Not sure how Monarch have ended up with 45 new 737 Max either but at $5bn it was not cash in hand.

Snapper5

16th Jul 2017, 13:08

Mafia money , greybull and the mantagezzas are best mates . A nice little money laundering behind the scenes I'm sure !
Company should have gone bust years ago
Been around since 1967 I think

CSman

16th Jul 2017, 13:47

Snapper where do you get the rubbish that you post?

Snapper5

16th Jul 2017, 13:51

How is it rubbish ? Makes sense unless you can think of another reason ......

Enzo999

16th Jul 2017, 16:38

Monarch are buying their 737s through a "sale lease back scheme". This where the airline negotiates the aircraft price but a third party actually buys them (in this case Boeings Air Lease Corporation) and the Airline then leases them back, so Monarch will be paying no money up front for these planes! This is how 90% of all Airlines buy their aircraft party because it totally removes the Aircraft debt from the balance sheet, which would be vital to an asset poor company like Monarch.

The link between Greybull and Montegazza is very tenuous, lots of rumours but no proven link between them. Greybull are a perfectly legitimate investment company and Monarch a viable business (the days of money laundering are long gone)!

INKJET

17th Jul 2017, 06:39

Norwegian has welcomed news that our British subsidiary ‘Norwegian UK’ (NUK) was last night given tentative approval by the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) for a foreign air carrier permit.

The NUK subsidiary was set up in November 2015 to allow us to build on our growing UK operation by accessing bilateral traffic rights to a series of global markets – NUK has already announced plans for new flights from London Gatwick to Singapore, starting in September and Argentina starting in February 2018.

We will now be pushing for the US DOT to finalise the permit which will also allow our NUK subsidiary to operate low-cost flights between the U.S. and Europe.

Once final approval is received from the US authorities, Norwegian UK will be able to establish a seamless operation and more effectively utilise its long-haul fleet – this includes the use of the same aircraft on all long-haul routes including the U.S., Singapore, Argentina and other future long-haul markets.

Direct Bondi

17th Jul 2017, 08:01

I note from the DOT Order To Show Cause, the UK government supports the NA UK permit application. I would expect that support to be totally impartial. However;

“...300,000 central government employees from 18 departments benefit from reduced fares on all Norwegian flights…”

https://buyingbusinesstravel.com/news/2427021-norwegian-added-uk-government-air-travel-programme

Norwegian’s lack of pilots continues, with eight more cancelled flights last Thursday;

Rotete dag og kveld for Norwegian - Norwegian Air Shuttle - Næringsliv - E24 (http://e24.no/naeringsliv/norwegian-air-shuttle/rotete-dag-og-kveld-for-norwegian/24096492)

Unfortunately, on Sunday, Norwegian also suffered a third 787 in flight engine shutdown in as many months;

Incident: Norwegian B788 over Greenland on Jul 16th 2017, engine shut down in flight (http://avherald.com/h?article=4abb5d6e&opt=0)

With no immediate cure for malignant pilot shortages, a long-standing CFO abruptly leaving, reoccurring labor troubles, increasing costs, grave company debts, plunging stock price, more passengers choosing more frequency carriers with included extras – all means at least one old Norwegian bear is :mad: in the woods.

Snapper5

17th Jul 2017, 08:18

Yeah sounds wonderful..... am I missing something ?

Landflap

17th Jul 2017, 09:51

Snapper, you are not missing anything. Your previous offerings also have some merit.Those of us from the long missed era will recall how difficult it was to conclude who actually owned Monarch. Mate of mine with job offers from everyone as he sought to escape the dreadful BOAC/BEA merger, checked out each potential employer at a place called Companies House. Stuck on the Monarch microfiche ( I think that's what it was called in those days ), Assistant politely asked him if he was trying to find out who owned Monarch. His bleak "well, yes" was responded with the fact that nobody, actually, knew. However, whenever the company needed shed loads of money, a big fat cheque would appear from some gnome in Switzerland.

I tend to side with you Snapper. Far from rubbish.

Oh, my mate decided on Laker but they went bust. He went to Air Europe but they went bust. Had he gone to Monarch on the B720 (yes, 7 2 0 !!!) , He would have enjoyed a long, unbroken, happy career .

Avenger

18th Jul 2017, 08:41

Discounted travel for Government employees is a very common practice, not unique and its about time it came to the UK in a noticeable form, maybe stop Ministers cruising around on BA and private jets at the tax payers expense. NAS do not have shortage of pilot applications just a shortage of training capacity, as do Qatar. Good news for UK aviation. As for the contract terms are concerned there is a tendency for an elitist attitude and we must accept the whole industry is changing, the most we can expect is respect from ground staff and cabin crew, management just view us as a resource which they have to tolerate ,provided the pay cheque arrives on time its all much the same.. and unions? in 23 years they have proved useless, worse than useless and expensive, state employment laws need to be changed, but with us Brexiting I guess thats a pipe dream

Arewerunning

18th Jul 2017, 20:23

.. and unions? in 23 years they have proved useless, worse than useless and expensive, state employment laws need to be changed, but with us Brexiting I guess thats a pipe dream

try tell that to AF,LH,EZY,KLM,BA, all American airlines...

Without union you become a seafarer...enjoy

22052014

19th Jul 2017, 01:33

Recently saw the aircraft LY-MGC (Boeing 737-4Y0) owned by GetJet Airlines, operating several flights under NorTrans callsign in GCLP.

Not enough pilots for the aircrafts they have and less to come.
Big debts, but still leasing, when they could simply hire more people.

Same is happening in my airline as well, not enough people but we can still operate.

260 aircraft on order, need to crew them somehow, and they are not the only airline in the market..

22052014

20th Jul 2017, 02:53

Agreed about the summer peak season.

But pilots are flying max hours (896 a friend of mine did the last year).
Few friends working for Norwegian gets email each day asking them to sell their days off to cover roster.

Plus paying 4 times more for a day off ?

And as far as I know nobody has been layed off last winter (2016/17), please correct me if I am wrong.

matt283

20th Jul 2017, 14:57

Cabin crew for LH in BCN just received an e-mail today saying that they need to take 1 month of unpaid leave in the winter... Lets see now if pilots get the same spam...

Direct Bondi

2nd Aug 2017, 09:06

DN newsaper reports that Norwegian’s wet leases have cost 1.2 billion kroner in three and half years. The most recent is the aircraft used for Hillary Clinton’s former campaign, operated by Xtra Airways based in Coral Gables, Florida. It arrived last Saturday.

“On board the plane were 30 pilots and cabin crew from the American airline. From 1 August, it will fly for Norwegian to cover the lack of aircraft and pilots” – Link:

https://www.dn.no/nyheter/2017/08/01/1126/Luftfart/norwegian-leier-hillary-clintons-kampanjefly

Hopefully, a second aircraft with 30 competent managers on board will arrive very soon.

INKJET

2nd Aug 2017, 14:40

Variety of reasons for the wet leases, some proactively booked in the Autumn to cover the change from NAS to NAI at CPH, some to cover peak Summer production and allow (some ) to have summer leave..

Reactive leasing to cover late delivery of aircraft (capacity) some to cover training bottle necks due to additional training requirements for ETOPS required by the IAA on 737 LH

The dreamer liner deliveries are also running a little late requiring additional wet lease.

Yes it cost a fortune, but much of it should be one off costs and next year is planned slower growth, this year was colossal at around 32 narrow body and 12 wide body

737 Atlantic operations seem to be settling down.

compton3bravo

3rd Aug 2017, 15:49

Rose tinted glasses come to mind! The money has got to come from somewhere and it is not a bottomless pit.

Direct Bondi

4th Aug 2017, 07:21

Wet lease costs have also increased due to Norwegian’s unfortunate spate of 787 in flight engine shutdowns – 4 in three months:-

http://avherald.com/h?search_term=Norwegian+787&opt=0&dosearch=1&search.x=11&search.y=21

Norwegian needs to become a well-oiled machine to fulfill its ambitious expansion plans.

A wet leased N registered 737 arriving in Oslo with 30 American pilots to address pilot shortages should cause a union response, both to inept management planning and if those pilots might also crew Norwegian’s aircraft within Europe. For those applying; information on the Schengen Work Visa process for US citizens:

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/working-schengen-visa/

nrn

4th Aug 2017, 07:43

Funny that they are shutting engines down due to OIL quantity, they might have the GE engines.

On the RR engines that we use there is no checklist for OIL quantity low and the fcom clearly states, OIL quantity alone is not a reason to shutdown the engine. There are air pressure bearings that work just as well without OIL.

back to Boeing

4th Aug 2017, 11:19

Trust me. Rollers are having a world of trouble with OIL. Just ask your engineers how they're coming along with a recently issued AD or search AV herald for 2 very recent in flight shutdowns.

EIFFS

4th Aug 2017, 15:09

I think that under Norwegian law all employers must grant leave during what passes for summer in Norway.

nrn

4th Aug 2017, 17:16

All I'm saying is, you don't shut down an engine for lack of oil (not the trent 1000 on the 787 anyway)

back to Boeing

4th Aug 2017, 19:49

No What you're saying is BA's QRH doesn't tell you to shut down a Trent 1000 for lack of oil. Doesn't mean you don't shut down a Trent 1000 due to lack of oil.

diverine

4th Aug 2017, 20:07

So sad that EU offers Americans work permit while the US doesn't do :mad: for European pilots... Go figure!

Googlebug

5th Aug 2017, 10:14

If the 787 is having so many inflight shutdowns how cones it still has ETOPS approval. I thought one of the approval ticks of ETOPS was based on engine reliability over x flight hours.

Meester proach

5th Aug 2017, 11:18

I bet this post never appears - I got banned from another NAS thread for criticising bondi and his psychotic hatred of NAS.

Pprune admin said they were glad someone was taking NAS to task, utter bias.

Shame as I have some good info .

VinRouge

5th Aug 2017, 12:21

Have a few questions, if you are willing to answer?

Are you expected to stump up the bond, or is it simply paid to the company if you leave early? Bit of an interesting one if the company were to fold, where would that leave the pilot, having just joined the company?

There have been mentions that downroute digs are somewhat godawful. Are we talking LAX down town shooting crack den bad or self service breakfast bad? Crew can be known to be somewhat precious, so "bad" is very much a relative term.

Is ID90/75 part of the package?

Pension? Any scheme or are you into DIY territory?

Any chat of pay point increases once Full time, or will the co/capt rate fixed?

Once working Full time, is there a per diem rate as opposed to a flat annual allowance rate, or is this again fixed?

For me personally, NAS is a definite option. Companies have to start somewhere, the model is relatively new (as did Easy at some stage) with the time to command a competitive feature of the offer. Expanding route structure, by all accounts, pleasant crews to work for and a fleet of modern new aeroplanes. Profit margins seem thin, but once they are up and running with setup costs covered, this should sort itself out. We don't live in the 90's and whilst T and Cs are not fantastic across the industry, we still have the highest paid jobs (for a major sector) in Europe.

Meester proach

5th Aug 2017, 12:52

Are you looking at 737 or 787 ?

VinRouge

5th Aug 2017, 13:14

78.

Currently 4300 total heavy (EFIS and HUD) including over 2000 command turbofan wide body over 250T. Unfortunate not FAR/CS25, so licence is currently frozen.

GA F15

5th Aug 2017, 13:27

Are you expected to stump up the bond, or is it simply paid to the company if you leave early? Bit of an interesting one if the company were to fold, where would that leave the pilot, having just joined the company?

One of my concerns in applying too! Anyone know the answer?

Direct Bondi

8th Aug 2017, 09:46

Recruitment advertisements, company accounts and available Employment Contract all indicate a requirement for non-rated pilots to provide a bond in the form of cash payment or bank guarantee. Regardless, the novel and complex labor scheme circumventing direct employment with the airline remains questionable.

Companies House accounts list Rishworth’s Global Crew UK Ltd as an “employment placement agency”. For the period ending March 2016, “included within the amounts by the group undertakings is 1,130,000 Euros of funds held for pilots in the form of bonds”. The next accounts are due to by 30 September 2017:-

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09543804/filing-history

The filing states; “The Company does not have a bank account, therefore all income and expenditures are collected or incurred by other group companies” - “The Company’s immediate parent undertaking is Global Resources Singapore PTE Ltd, a company incorporated in Singapore”. However, a confirmation statement dated 24 April 2017, lists Empresaria NZ Ltd as “Persons with significant control” over Global Crew UK Ltd:-

https://www.empresaria.com/ - “Our brands; Rishworth Aviation”

The Employment Contract associated with Norwegian’s 787 operations on file with the DOT includes:

“Schedule 3 - Training

(b) The Employee agrees to provide the Employer with a training cost bond in EUR by way of either a bank guarantee from a satisfactory bank in favor of the Employer in a form accepted by the Employer, or a cash deposit to a bank account nominated by the Employer, to the requisite value specified below in respect of such training costs two weeks prior to the Commencement Date. The applicable training cost bond shall reduce on each anniversary of the Commencement Date in accordance with the schedule in Item (c) below.

(c) Where the Employee has undertaken a B787 type rating course at the Employer’s or the Client’s cost and this Agreement is terminated (excluding termination by the Employer under *Clause 9.1 of this Agreement [*30 days notice by Employer]) prior to completion of the term, the Employee shall immediately repay the Employer the training costs as follows, for the date on which the Employee's notice expires (where the employment has been terminated with notice), or the date on which termination takes effect (where the employment has been terminated without notice) (“Effective Date of Termination”) occurring between:
Pilots current and rated on any other accepted Boeing or Airbus aircraft type in JAA/EASA license when starting the B787 type rating course:
EUR 40,000
Effective Date of Termination, Amount to be repaid:
0-12 months - EUR 40,000
13-24 months - EUR 27,000
25-36 months - EUR 13,000
After 36 months – Nil”

The Employment Contract on file with the DOT also contains;

“Clause 10, Material Changes/Redundancy/Transfer of Employment –In circumstances where;
(b) Client [Norwegian airline] terminates its agreement with the Employer [agency] with respect to the Employee [pilot] - then the Employer shall be entitled to terminate this agreement by giving 30-days notice to the Employee or (if greater), any employee entitlements will be in accordance with the laws of England and Wales” - or appropriate EU country.

Employment laws of England and Wales state that a minimum one week notice must be given if employment is less than two years and an additional week for each year of service thereafter.

Reference to Schedule 3, Training, clause (c) suggests that if you receive 30-days notice from the agency Employer via Clause 9.1 you are not liable for training costs. Presumably, you would have no liability under Clause 10 (b) above. But remember, your bank guarantee or cash payment is under the control of the agency Employer (“in favor of the Employer”).

Despite Clause 10 (b), this labor scheme is being marketed as “permanent employment”.

Response to refute or comment on the above is welcomed. Sadly, some are so disheartened with Norwegian’s “employment” shortcomings they respond in frustration with no association to the post or thread whatsoever. Fortunately, the administrators recognize the irrelevance and take the appropriate action.

Mr Angry from Purley

8th Aug 2017, 16:20

Direct Bondi
This thread is only interesting reading if your steer clear of posting.
Go over to the BA thread and comment on 9 Qatari aircraft and crews flying for them

Enzo999

8th Aug 2017, 18:50

At least his posts (albeit long winded ones) are relevant to this thread. Absolutely nothing about that Qatari wet lease is relivant to this discussion.

JetpoweredMigrantWkr

8th Aug 2017, 19:00

To be fair, I don't think Norwegian does "Training Bonds" any longer.
I believe they now use "No Compete" clauses.
Not sure about how that would work though.
Hope that helps.

Mr Angry from Purley

9th Aug 2017, 15:46

Enzo

Absolutely nothing about that Qatari wet lease is relivant to this discussion.

A wet leased N registered 737 arriving in Oslo with 30 American pilots to address pilot shortages should cause a union response, both to inept management planning and if those pilots might also crew Norwegian’s aircraft within Europe.

Same

Direct Bondi

9th Aug 2017, 17:44

To be fair, I don't think Norwegian does "Training Bonds" any longer. I believe they now use "No Compete" clauses. Not sure about how that would work though. Hope that helps.

A ‘non-compete covenant’ is neither applicable nor enforceable in respect of Norwegian’s labor scheme for the following reasons:

Norwegian’s crew service providers (your employer) do not hold any AOC. Therefore, upon leaving the Norwegian airline with a brand new 787 or 737 type rating and securing direct airline employment, you would not be competing with your former employer – Rishworth or Orient Ship Management.

Those responsible may be attempting a non-compete covenant on the grounds of 'Protectable Interests' (extraordinary or specialized training). To qualify, the training "must exceed that which is usual, regular, common or customary in the industry". It is usual for an airline to train its pilots on the aircraft they will fly. Therefore, a non-compete covenant for 787 or 737 training is not enforceable.

A worldwide, country by country legal guide to non-compete covenants including every US state is available at this link:

https://www.fenwick.com/FenwickDocuments/RS_Summary-of-Covenants.pdf

samca

10th Aug 2017, 12:29

Do you know guys if they still not offering Spanish bases for Senior Type Rated FOs coming from other bases.

Anyone knows what happen after the upgrade, are they sending people out of his permanent base like Ryanair does?

Cheers

november.sierra

10th Aug 2017, 13:00

It doesn't matter where you come from, your base will be allocated according to your bids and your position on the MSL, if someone higher up the list wants the space and there's no space for you, that's too bad, then you go where they need you. The system isn't perfect but the only fair system in place, you do your time and eventually you get what you want.

Regarding the upgrade, you will first have to pass the selection and then upon successful completion of training you'll be given a base, if there's space at your preferred base and nobody of higher seniority wants that base you get it, if not you'll be moved and can then bid for your preferred base in the base bidding process. Same principle as above, when your name comes up on the list you get it, until such time you have to bide your time and wait.

samca

11th Aug 2017, 07:41

What bases are you offering for the moment, right now?,

What happen if you are in your preference base and then do the upgrade?, After finish the upgrade you return to your base or you are moved to other base?,

How many hours are you making per month? how many sectors per day?,

cheers

november.sierra

11th Aug 2017, 09:55

I have no idea what bases are on offer at the moment, contact Norwegian or OSM or whoever deals with your application for more info.

Regarding the upgrade, you can bid for your preferred base before starting the course and then if there's space, you'll be able to stay, if there is no space, you go where you are needed and then with the next round of base bidding you can bid for your preferred base. If there is a slot and your seniority is good enough, you can go back there, if there is a slot and someone of higher seniority bids for it, then you don't get it and they do. Eventually your seniority will be good enough to get what you want and then you can move there.

Monthly hours can be hard to predict, but expect to fly between 750-800 per year. It is mostly 2 sector days in the Spanish bases, with the occasional 4 sector day, in the Scandi bases the days vary greatly between 2, 4 and 6 sector days, the transatlantic operation is self explanatory, and LGW and HEL have a mix of 2, 3 and 4 sector days. Hardly any nightstops at Spanish bases, expect plenty in the Scandi bases, LGW and HEL.

EIFFS

12th Aug 2017, 13:33

I would concur with november.sierra

Dublin is now on offer as a crew base, but with restrictions due to experience levels required for US OPS, this will pull some back to the emerald isle and possibly from LGW that are non UK resident but commute in to LGW that have been hit by the fall in the £ -v- €

There is also talk of recruitment moving back to Norwegian from OSM, I have also heard that all future TR courses will moving in house later this year.

ZFT

13th Aug 2017, 13:03

How can they move in house when they don't own or operate FSTDs?

november.sierra

14th Aug 2017, 08:19

Whilst Norwegian may not own any sims, they virtually have a monopoly on the Scandinavia based CAE sims, also the CTC sims at LGW are used mainly by Norwegian, so that's not an issue.

ChevyAirlines

15th Aug 2017, 06:20

Anyone else can't start the online assessment or had this happend before? I emailed the support and they say its a technical problem with them.

a-ricky-town

15th Aug 2017, 10:12

Even if they are open tests may freeze and lock before you finish. I had to request help twice in order to complete them.

I did mine for the 787 fleet 8 days ago and now waiting patiently to see what happens.

Does anyone know how long it takes to receive a PFO?

ChevyAirlines

15th Aug 2017, 11:13

Ok. Well for me it doesnt even open the test. Its shows loading for a second and then nothing. Tried every browser, mac and windows and flash is up to date. Emailed them and they said its a technical problem and have to wait untill its fixed. It has been two days now. So must be a serious issue

I was just wondering if anyone else trying to do the test now is having the same problem.

GA F15

15th Aug 2017, 11:27

I'm having the same issue

ChevyAirlines

15th Aug 2017, 15:02

Ok thanks for letting me know!

Vulka

21st Aug 2017, 10:00

Anyhow...
The new strategy of the "intelligence of the Company" wants to change the contract conditions unilaterally...

Be sure about contract conditions before leave your actual employer...

DUPLEX

21st Aug 2017, 10:06

Hello all, I am wondering about base allocation in Norwegian, specifically the scandinavian capitol bases. Let's assume you get hired as DEC and get a base in Spain for example. Will you ever get a CPH, OSL or ARN base, or are they only for the chosen ones in core or how does it work? Or does core even exist anymore? I'm confused!

november.sierra

21st Aug 2017, 13:47

Regarding the Scandinavian bases, you will not get one of them when you come in as a DEC EVER!!!! There are countless first officers that have not gone for their command in order not to be moved from their home base and they will be first in line, strictly according to the MSL!

If for any reason in the future, they need additional captains in the Scandinavian bases and cannot crew those positions with the people already there and ready to be upgraded, they MAY, and only if the NPU agrees, take on additional captains from the Euro bases, again strictly according to MSL, which at the moment would mean there might be a few hundred people ahead of you, wanting one of those spots, so again, do your time and eventually you MAY get there!

If you now wanted to come in and bid for any of those bases as a captain, you can of course do so, but you're unlikely to ever go there as a captain, if you agree to fly as an F/O, you might stand a chance.

Direct Bondi

2nd Sep 2017, 19:34

A Scandinavian base is also coveted due to it being the relative nirvana of labor rights and labor principles. The erosion of these virtues seems proportional to the distance from the region.

A letter to management from the AFA MEC President of Norwegian’s US based 787 cabin crews, was provided in a report by Dagbladet newspaper yesterday, 9/1:

https://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/tillitsvalgt-slar-alarm---norwegian-ansatte-i-usa-lever-pa-fattigdomsgrensa/68649490

http://cabinassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/ValentinLorien08172017.pdf

The letter raises a number of management shortcomings and issues. The same OSM and Norwegian management decide and implement the terms and conditions for the pilots, which may be a factor in the shortage:

“As you may already know, rostering has always been a problem at our company and will continue to be a problem until an adequate bidding program is implemented”.

“The poor decisions of Norwegian management have forced many cabin crew members to seek second jobs, rely on family for support, and quit our company altogether”.

“I’m not sure what you are being told by OSM or those you count on to give you the correct information, but I can assure you that saying we are paid “competitive wages and benefits” is a false statement—especially at this juncture”.

The treatment described in the letter contradicts the “Norwegian family” ethos marketed to applicants. Apparently, the Atlantic not only separates families but also comparable terms and conditions. Perhaps the adoption of the powerful AFA union upset the dysfunctional relatives in Fornebu.

(cue the messenger assassins……)

Dualbleed

3rd Sep 2017, 16:02

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/286590/oleary-claims-norwegian-air-running-out-of-cash

Apparently O'Leary says it's not lack of pilots but lack of cash. And Norwegian will run out of it in 4-5 months.

FRogge

3rd Sep 2017, 17:01

I'm not saying that there isn't any truth behind in what MOL claims here, but what else would you expect from him in a situation where they're losing a lot of pilots to other airlines. I believe that this was targeted to the pilots who are thinking of jumping ship to Norwegian, Monarch, easy etc. But I'm pretty sure Ryanair will not be the only one surviving, and who knows, maybe they even won't be as profitable in the future if the lack of experienced pilots really hits them as hard as suggested in the other thread them.

A and C

3rd Sep 2017, 18:06

The whole industry is short of experienced pilots and it will be those offering the best remuneration/ lifestyle package that will get the flight crew they need but this is not the only limiting factor in the industry , the lack of skilled maintenance staff is worse than pilots.

RAT 5

3rd Sep 2017, 18:56

And I wonder if MOL is shedding a tear for NAS, or is he suddenly hoping that his own 'talked about' shortage of crews will suddenly disappear.: as will the cabin crew & engineer dry supply.

JetpoweredMigrantWkr

3rd Sep 2017, 19:03

MOL is an advocate for Ryan, but he also has a known issue with running off at the mouth and dramatizing things.
Every airline has their own unique circumstances, but they all have this in common; unless they take care of their crews, they will all lose personnel to other airlines that offer better packages. Airlines especially need crews to grow! And there is a major shortage of experienced pilots, which I suspect is why MOL was spreading rumors about his competition. Ryan has been hemorrhaging experienced pilots to other carriers that offer more.

EIFFS

3rd Sep 2017, 19:34

Norwegian & Monarch will have had an expensive year with fleet renewal and in Norwegians case near 30% growth plans including setting up an Argentinan AOC,HQ refurbishment, introducing the MAX, ETOPS training for 737 crews and a large number of new routes and dream-liners to fly them and their crews.

It is no secret that pilots are leaving Ryanair to Norwegian & Jet2, Monarch will shortly start recruiting more 737 rated f/o's and rumour of DEC will only add to FR shortage.

So I guess by suggesting that these airlines may not last suits his agenda.

Of course given FR cash pile it is within their recourse to address the underlying reason for their own pilot attrition.

RAT 5

3rd Sep 2017, 21:08

Airlines especially need crews to grow! And there is a major shortage of experienced pilots, Ryan has been hemorrhaging experienced pilots to other carriers that offer more.

Perhaps true, but there is also a perceived idea that RYR had an alleged predatory philosophy & business model that caused the demise of competition thereby creating a supply of desperate workers who would work for any T's & C's they could get. Hence RYR could expand into vacuums, of their own creating, very cheaply. Very capitalistic and dog eat dog, survival of the finest and live by the laws of the jungle. Thus they had no need to raise incomes, indeed they have been effectively reduced.
Perhaps that is starting to change. We shall see.

macdo

3rd Sep 2017, 22:28

As they say, 'turnover is vanity, profit is sanity'. MoL has made a lot of profit for RYR, which can't be said of some of the competition. I'd take notice of this if I were moving on from RYR to pastures new.

Dualbleed

3rd Sep 2017, 22:48

I would definitely work for RYR or NOR if they treated you with respect, and salary like Southwest Airlines and the likes. Final Salay pension pension would be a bonus, as was the norm in days gone by. Maybe 25+ % employer contribution in money purchase pension schemes instead would get qualified pilots flocking to your companies.
As of now I'm a happy camper with almost all above.

matt283

8th Sep 2017, 15:39

This link explains everything:

Norwegian on Ryanair attack: O'Leary is bitter about losing his pilots to us - Business Insider Nordic (http://nordic.businessinsider.com/norwegian-on-ryanair-attack-oleary-was-bitter-for-losing-his-pilots-to-us-2017-9/)

Direct Bondi

10th Sep 2017, 11:49

The post above references an article first appearing in Svenska Dagbladet:

https://www.svd.se/norwegian-pilotvarvningar-bakom-ryanairchefens-angrepp

Responding to O’Leary’s comments a Norwegian paid mouthpiece told the newspaper; “So far this year we have employed close to 140 Ryanair pilots. With us, they get permanent employment in a Norwegian company and receive market wages”.

OSM Aviation Ireland Limited is listed with Companies Registration Office as a private company with no reference to a Norwegian airline whatsoever:
https://www.cro.ie/en-ie/

It is implausible to suggest Norwegian’s atypical labor scheme is “permanent employment”. A pilot contract applicable to Norwegian is on file with the DOT. Clause 10.b permits the client Norwegian airline to terminate the rental agreement(s) with the agency for pilot(s) services without notice, reason or recourse. A 30-days notice period is with the employer agency, not the airline. Read the contract!

DN newspaper quotes another Norwegian paid mouthpiece; “What we have to say in this case is that this is a classic O’Leary tulle (joke) game that has no root in reality”: https://www.dn.no/nyheter/2017/09/04/1016/Luftfart/norwegian-om-ryanair-pastandklassisk-tulleutspill

E24 news reported; “The fall of the Norwegian share Monday is due to statements by Ryanair chief Michael O’Leary that Bjorn Kjos & Co is in financial trouble”:
http://e24.no/naeringsliv/luftfart/analytiker-ryanair-sjefen-snakket-ned-norwegian-aksjen/24133128

There are no reports of Norwegian seeking redress against O’Leary for his “joke” comments, but there is a previous report Norwegian threatened to sue a homeless, penniless, single mother – “I was told that the top boss at Norwegian threatened to sue me for bad publicity. The conversation was very threatening. It was like an interrogation for committing a crime”:
https://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/foler-seg-utsatt-for-heksejakt-fra-kjos-etter-norwegian-krangel/60848976

Other than Scandinavia, Norwegian’s pilots have no collective labor agreement with the airline, only with their service provider agency. Ryanair pilots should consider Norwegian’s hypocrisy and bullying propensity before abandoning the rock solid 5 on 4 off roster and directness of O’Leary.

Ryanairpilot

10th Sep 2017, 12:26

Bondi that's a curious last paragraph. I know that you are on a downer with Norwegian but what actual experience do you have in Ryanair where there is no collective agreement whatsoever? Genuine question.

EIFFS

11th Sep 2017, 10:03

Ryanairpilot

If the best Bondi the Norwegian detractor can come up with ( reason for staying in Ryanair) is a 5/4 roster, then it little wonder FR pilots are leaving.

and

11th Sep 2017, 11:20

Norwegian high debt level his a fact ......

and

12th Sep 2017, 22:00

Sorry "is a fact"

linmar

13th Sep 2017, 08:26

It definately is. In the Q2 report the equity ratio fell to 8% comparing to 31 december 2016. Sure, it is the same ratio as a year earlier in Q2-16, but now the balance sheet include an asset of more than 2 billion NOK that is the stake(s) Norwegian has in OSM and Norwegian Finans Holding (Bank Norwegian). The latter was not included as an asset earlier and also gave a positive effect on the result in Q2. That is, Norwegian given the current RASK-levels and CASK (or unit revenue/unit cost) are likely to post a heavy loss for FY17, even including the 2 billion effect of Norwegian Finans Holding.

Unless things turn around and the increasing cost levels are halted and unit revenue increases, quickly, Norwegian will most likely need money from the owners within 12 months. Given that unit revenue fell in both July and August, that is not likely for Q3 at least.

More importantly for an airline is definately the fact that there is a shortage of cash. The current assets held at the end of Q2 was 15 billion NOK whilst the short-term liabilities were 21 billion NOK. The Q3 report will probably add about 1 billion NOK cash but then comes Q4 and Q1 where cash flow most likely will be negative, unless the company adds on additional borrowings, which might become more difficult should the quity ratio fall even further. The company needs at least 1.5 billion NOK equity to fulfill the current borrowings. Other solutions could be to sell off non-current assets such as aircraft but the effect on the balance sheet and equity ratio should such sales take place is uncertain. It could even prove to have a negative effect on equity ratio if the aircrafts value in the balance sheet is higher than the market value Norwegian are able to sell them with. I've seen airlines do that in order to keep the equity ratio at acceptable levels before.

All in all, the financial situation for Norwegian is difficult and what is most worriyng is the fact that unit revenue has been falling all year whilst unit cost has increased. Should the owners however be willing to invest further and add capital to the company, the situation could be resolved short term. However, the question is if the largest owner, Bjorn Kjos himself, is willing to invest further in Norwegian. Hi did sell in Q2 where he decreased his ownership in Norwegian from 24% to 17%, probably at a value of around half a billion NOK. I have no idea how much cash BK has but should the airline need an investment those 500 million NOK would cover a 3 billion cash investment in order for BK not to dilute the current stocks he has.

Now, I'm with a completely different airline (neither Norwegian, Ryanair, Easy, Monarch, Jet2, SAS or any of the main competitors on the European market) and I wouldn't jump ship to any of those two no matter the financial situation but pilots thinking of moving to Norwegian should think this through before changing. I don't know if they still ask you for bank guarantee for the type rating, but I would be very careful and read the fine prints of what happens if the airline goes bust or can't pay the owner of the debt before signing.

EIFFS

14th Sep 2017, 16:04

Linmar

Can't disagree with what you say, the debt is indeed high which is not really surprising given the growth rate and upfront costs especially with widebody operations.

They will have added some 32 new aircraft this year alone, that's around half of Jet2 active fleet in a year and a lot are 789, the training costs alone let alone marketing and legal stuff must be enormous, add a new AOC in Argentina and start up costs they for sure are burning cash, conversely they have entered markets thought mature and really shaken them up, one hope BK really does know what he is doing....if he becomes the Ryanair of long haul and wins skytrax awards whilst doing it good on him.

Direct Bondi

16th Sep 2017, 11:36

Linmar's assessment is proven accurate by a report in E24 news:

All in all, the financial situation for Norwegian is difficult and what is most worrying is the fact that unit revenue has been falling all year whilst unit cost has increased. Should the owners however be willing to invest further and add capital to the company, the situation could be resolved short term. However, the question is if the largest owner, Bjorn Kjos himself, is willing to invest further in Norwegian.

"Director Bjorn Kjos and Chairman Bjorn Kjos today bought a large number of shares in Norwegian" (803,000) - Link:

http://e24.no/naeringsliv/norwegian-air-shuttle/norwegian-aksjen-fyker-opp-etter-massivt-aksjekjoep/24140896

Another report in July also supports Linmar’s assessment:

"The business model for Norwegian does not work financially says analyst at Norne Securities, Karl-Johan Molnes" – Link:

http://e24.no/naeringsliv/norwegian-air-shuttle/analytiker-mener-norwegian-maa-endre-strategi/24099364

Definitely reasons for concern.