Can get a job anywhere but Oz

[pilotchute]

I complained on pprune a few times about the lottery that is airline hiring in Australia.

Why then am I surprised that a person with 3000+ hours including King Air PIC and biz jet FO time can't land a jet job in Oz? They have an ATPL and all the other bells and whistles. In desperation they went to an interview prep company specialising in Airlines and they can't find fault.

Two reputable overseas airlines offered NTR positions with start dates.

Do Australians still have to go overseas to fly a 737/A320?. I thought that stopped in the 90's?

[Piltdown Man]

I'm surprised you are surprised. There is a glut of qualified pilots with too few airframes. The glut exists because Australians work hard, have a bloody good economy, good pay and have a pretty classless society. This enables (too) many people to train to become pilots, leading to a glut of qualified wannabes.

Just out of interest, why the fixation with jets? Surely a paying job is the goal?

PM

[tail wheel]

Some airlines may view GA and Biz Jet time as less attractive, whilst they have an abundance of applications with extensive airline time.

[clark y]

Some other airlines may view GA and Biz Jet time as less attractive, whilst they have an abundance of applications for their cadet schemes.

[Duck Pilot]

Looking into the future.

Some other airlines may view GA and Biz Jet time as less attractive, whilst they have an abundance of applications who can operate pilotless aircraft remotely.

[tail wheel]

................................
..... :}

[megan]

I complained on PPRuNe a few times about the lottery that is airline hiring in Australia.

Why then am I surprised that a person with 3000+ hours including King Air PIC and biz jet FO time can't land a jet job in OzGetting any job, anywhere, is a lottery. There are winners, and there are losers, that's how the world works. Locally there seems a reasonably steady stream of GA turbo prop folk being accepted by the airlines for jets.

[dr dre]

Do Australians still have to go overseas to fly a 737/A320?. I thought that stopped in the 90's?

Plenty of Australians getting opportunities to fly 737's and A320's and larger in Australia. All majors have been recruiting within the last year, and will continue to do so in the short to medium term. It seems to be mostly from the regionals, does your friend have extensive multi-crew time in a regional? The reason why Rex, Qlink seem to provide most of the recruits may be because it's easier for them to make the jump up to the majors in terms of SOP's, multi-crew dynamics etc?

I don't think it's nepotism, there certainly isn't an old boys club mentality anymore.

[pilotchute]

Dr dre there is the problem. If Multi crew RPT pilots are what they want why don't they list that as a minimum? I find it counter productive to advertise a minimum requirement that isn't really the minimum.

[Band a Lot]

Dr dre there is the problem. If Multi crew RPT pilots are what they want why don't they list that as a minimum? I find it counter productive to advertise a minimum requirement that isn't really the minimum.



Because that is the minimum they will take, before maybe an external person needs to be sourced on a skilled worker visa.


But any employer that employs a minimum - over a worker (Australian) that brings more to the table than the minimum, is a fool.

The more you have to offer above the minimum the better the chances of a gaining the job - if you don't have the minimum, don't apply. If you have the minimum and no one else applies, good chance you will get the job.

* My guess is more than 1 person in Australia will be applying for a Boeing/Airbus gig in Australia.

[pilotchute]

Band a lot. I see your point but if you have a huge pile of applicants with well over the minimums wouldn't you adjust your minimums?

When I advertise for staff I list the qualifications I require. If I get no takers I revise the list. I don't just list a YR12 certificate and hope to get uni grads because graduates are what I really want.

[Band a Lot]

Band a lot. I see your point but if you have a huge pile of applicants with well over the minimums wouldn't you adjust your minimums?

When I advertise for staff I list the qualifications I require. If I get no takers I revise the list. I don't just list a YR12 certificate and hope to get uni grads because graduates are what I really want.



And set the standard high and re advertise (at my cost) each time with a lower minimum, until I get an applicant to apply?


Get real - it is supply and demand.


I would set the level high but low enough to be able to allow a certain type of applicant to still have the chance of employment - but not have an under minimum qualification to not be able to employ - or if I do get raped by unions and government regulators, for employing them.


Currently in Australia if you WANT a flying job in Australia, you need to stand out - not the airline beg for you to join them. So you apply 50 times and they advertise once. That is until they get no applications, then you call the shots and name the terms.

[pilotchute]

At your cost? AFAP was free to advertise on last time I checked. Changing the careers section of your website doesn't cost either. If you really want splash the cash you can put an ad on Seek ($198 last time I did that). If a jet operator doesn't want to spend another $198 to post another Seek ad then they need to take a look at their business model.

As for your under qualification you only need a CPL and a multi IR (and type rating) to fly any jet in Australia. Jetstar already do that so what are these union and regulator problems you speak of?

[Kranz]

BandaLot, if you are going to mention cost then you need to consider the hidden costs - HR depts expenditure on recruiters sifting through hundreds to thousands of applications which are below the current cut-off standard - even just sending out a generic 'thanks but no thanks' email takes time and effort which is measurable in $$s.

I agree with pilochute that if airlines know there is currently more than enough pilots qualified to 'x' standard why advertise minimum criteria at 'x - 25%'?

[Band a Lot]

At your cost? AFAP was free to advertise on last time I checked. Changing the careers section of your website doesn't cost either. If you really want splash the cash you can put an ad on Seek ($198 last time I did that). If a jet operator doesn't want to spend another $198 to post another Seek ad then they need to take a look at their business model.

As for your under qualification you only need a CPL and a multi IR (and type rating) to fly any jet in Australia. Jetstar already do that so what are these union and regulator problems you speak of?

Who is typing and gathering the minimum levels on the floating scale for free?

A GA pilot?

Nothing is for free.

You are A type I would not employ, minimum or maximum. You just don't seem to get it, no offence - just I don't like your style. Maybe other get the same impression.

[Band a Lot]

BandaLot, if you are going to mention cost then you need to consider the hidden costs - HR depts expenditure on recruiters sifting through hundreds to thousands of applications which are below the current cut-off standard - even just sending out a generic 'thanks but no thanks' email takes time and effort which is measurable in $$s.

I agree with pilochute that if airlines know there is currently more than enough pilots qualified to 'x' standard why advertise minimum criteria at 'x - 25%'?



Rubbish, they have ideal candidates - they must also have minimums. HR are employed as HR and filter the applicants.

Some close to minimums will progress, some from certain backgrounds (old HR staff company employment and area) will prosper or be hindered in the process.


If say HR staff worked for Dog Aviation in the Far North and enjoyed that experience and flying, you will find that persons from that company and area will tend to get preference - if they did not enjoy it, it will have the opposite effect.

They are leaving their options open as per the law, you guys are not working that part out.

HR departments don't often go over budget - as it is mostly only labour, they use the other departments funds when there's is outside budget.

* Cast a net big enough to catch a feed, you can always throw back what you don't need.
Casting a line with a hook is pointless if a fish is not hungry.

[Kranz]

I'm not arguing with you Band - you're right. I'm just making the point that it seems lazy and inefficient to recruit in that manner.

At the end of the day, its the same process that every pilot goes through so its not like any one person is disadvantaged by it. We all just need to either accept that HR departments have not progressed since 1980 otherwise, find a new industry.

[pilotchute]

From the United Airlines website.

"FAA Requirements
FAA commercial fixed-wing pilot license with an instrument rating.
Current FAA First Class Medical Certificate.
Meets ALL minimum FAA ATP requirements including successful completion of the ATP written exam.
Flight Time Requirements
Minimum of 1,500 hours of total documented flight time.
Minimum of 1,000 hours of fixed wing turboprop or turbofan time".

If we look at this example you will see that the company is nice enough to tell you that simply meeting the minimum won't get you an interview.

[AerocatS2A]

Do pilots really need telling that just having the minimums isn't enough to guarantee a job?

[Car RAMROD]

S2A, in this day and age, yes. Everyone coming up in the industry these days seem to expect that they will be given a job, what they don't realise is that they have to earn it. Just having the minimum experience listed does not mean you have earnt the job.

[Kranz]

If we look at this example you will see that the company is nice enough to tell you that simply meeting the minimum won't get you the job.

Pilotchute, I havent seen a single job advertised in my life that has said - if you meet the minimum requirements you will get the job. I dont see how those UA advertised requirements are any different to any airline in Australia...

Tigerair:
Australian permanent residency status
Australian CASA issued ATPL
Australian CASA Command Multi Engine Instrument rating, IAP3D and IAP2D endorsements
Valid Australian CASA Class 1 medical
Ability to hold an ASIC
Total Flight Time of ≥ 1500 hours
Minimum of 500 hours Pilot in Command
Minimum 250 hours Multi-engine
Basic IT literacy
ICAO English Language Proficiency Level 4 or above

Virgin:
The minimum flying hours experience and qualifications requirements are outlined below:

Second Officer Opportunities (Australia Based)
1,000 hours Total Experience
500 hours Multi-Engine
500 hours PIC
You will also hold an:
Australian ATPL or Australian CPL plus all Australian ATPL Subjects*
Australian Command Multi-Engine Aeroplane Instrument Rating
Australian Class 1 Medical
English Language Proficiency Level 6

First Officer Opportunities (New Zealand Based)
1,000 hours Total Experience
500 hours Multi-Engine
500 hours PIC
You will also hold an:
Australian ATPL*
Australian Command Multi-Engine Aeroplane Instrument Rating
Australian Class 1 Medical
English Language Proficiency Level 6

ATR Turbo-prop First Officer Positions
1,000 hours Total Experience
500 hours Multi-Engine
500 hours PIC
You will also hold an:
Australian ATPL or Australian CPL plus all Australian ATPL Subjects*
Australian Command Multi-Engine Aeroplane Instrument Rating
Australian Class 1 Medical
English Language Proficiency Level 6


Rex:
We require all applicants for the position of First Officer to possess the following:

• Australian Commercial Pilot Licence or Australian Air Transport Pilot Licence
• Command Multi Engine Instrument Rating
• Civil Aviation Safety Authority Class 1 medical certificate
• Minimum of 2000 hours total flight time
• Minimum of 500 hours Command or ICUS flight time on multi-engine aircraft under the I.F.R
• Australian citizen or permanent residence status.



None of those are any different from UA and all state that the criteria are the minimum requirements.

[pilotchute]

I will rephrase my earlier post. I meant to say United make it clear that only having the mins won't make you competitive. UA state that their min flight time required is 1000 turbo prop or jet. That is a polite way saying if you have that there is a high probability of you at least getting an interview. The examples you put up listed company mins but gave no indication as to the experience needed to be competitive.

[neville_nobody]

S2A, in this day and age, yes. Everyone coming up in the industry these days seem to expect that they will be given a job, what they don't realise is that they have to earn it. Just having the minimum experience listed does not mean you have earnt the job.

What does that mean exactly? How does one 'earn' a jet job in Australia.

It becomes even more ridiculous when you go to overseas airlines and they think you are some kind of retard if you have 4000 hours+ and aren't a jet captain.

[Kranz]

Don't know how you 'earn' a jet job but obviously the problem is basic economics. Supply & demand. If you need 4000 hours ME PIC experience just to get a right hand seat, well, unfortunately that is what it is. And if its 10 times easier to get a job o'seas, well, then that's what you need to consider if you don't have the 4000 hours.

It is obviously a highly competitive industry and a tough nut to crack. We could double the cost of flight training to halve the number of applicants but then it will only be the super elite silver spoon set that become pilots - I don't want that because I'm not in that category! So I'll put up with it the way it is and do my best to make a career out of it.

[AerocatS2A]

I will rephrase my earlier post. I meant to say United make it clear that only having the mins won't make you competitive. UA state that their min flight time required is 1000 turbo prop or jet. That is a polite way saying if you have that there is a high probability of you at least getting an interview. The examples you put up listed company mins but gave no indication as to the experience needed to be competitive.

I don't read it that way. Their minimum requirements are 1500 total and 1000 turbo prop or jet. Those numbers are not mutually exclusive.

What does that mean exactly? How does one 'earn' a jet job in Australia.


I'm not sure what Car RAMROD intends with his post. To me you "earn" a job by getting whatever experience is required to ensure you are amongst the applicants who are hired. You are not just handed a job merely because you happen to have the barest minimum of experience.

The very basic point that anyone applying for a job must understand is that there are often more applicants than there are positions available. This means the company hiring must choose from the applicants and therefore the applicants aren't being compared agains a minimum requirement, all the minimum requirement gives you is the right to apply, the applicant is being compared to all of the other applicants. It doesn't matter one whit if you've got 4000 total including business jet time and single pilot turbo prop if the other applicants have got 5000 hours with multi-crew turbo-prop command time and the company values that time more.

And it can go the other way. A company might prefer someone with less experience for whatever reason.

The point is that if you don't get a job, it's because the company hiring decided that, for whatever reasons, you weren't as good an applicant as the others.

[pilotchute]

As well as my original post I think knowing what makes your application competitive is very important. This will affect people's decisions as to what companies they should target on the road to shiny jet holy grail. At least UA are kind enough to give you a carrot.

Say you have just clocked up 1000 hours with 300 multi day vfr . Now you get the chance at being a metro FO (no upgrade to Capt and day ops only). Alternatively you can go be a night IFR freight chieftain driver with a different company.

So what is the better choice? Some will say multi night command and others will say turbine FO. The problem is how on earth do you fill holes in your experience if you don't know where the holes are? I know some companies value night whilst others don't. Some view single turbine higher than multi piston. Others don't.

[romeocharlie]

I've written this in another thread, but the short version is that minimum requirements are just that. The training and checking manual for those particular airlines probably stipulates those exact requirements. It's not just HR that filter applications. The links that all of these airlines use, automatically do it if you don't meet the minimum. This dates back at the very least to Virgin Blue/Qlink/QF back in the day.

Does it really matter how low they put their requirements? It's their train set and if they want to put a bare CPL on there and have a million applications, then it's their prerogative. They've been doing it for years too - do you think everyone that got into QF or VB back in the early 2000's had 500 multi? You could barely get a job flying a twin out of somewhere nice (like Cairns) without having 3000hrs. Ergo, most (yes, generalising) of the guys/girls had heaps of time NOT JUST MINIMUM EXPERIENCE.

Comparing Australian aviation to the US counterpart is pointless. Case in point the above just to get a twin job.

It's hard, yes. It's not impossible. Keep at it!

[Tankengine]

I've written this in another thread, but the short version is that minimum requirements are just that. The training and checking manual for those particular airlines probably stipulates those exact requirements. It's not just HR that filter applications. The links that all of these airlines use, automatically do it if you don't meet the minimum. This dates back at the very least to Virgin Blue/Qlink/QF back in the day.

Does it really matter how low they put their requirements? It's their train set and if they want to put a bare CPL on there and have a million applications, then it's their prerogative. They've been doing it for years too - do you think everyone that got into QF or VB back in the early 2000's had 500 multi? You could barely get a job flying a twin out of somewhere nice (like Cairns) without having 3000hrs. Ergo, most (yes, generalising) of the guys/girls had heaps of time NOT JUST MINIMUM EXPERIENCE.

Comparing Australian aviation to the US counterpart is pointless. Case in point the above just to get a twin job.

It's hard, yes. It's not impossible. Keep at it!

Yep! In the late 80s I had a CP say "how many hours? 3000 hey, well allright, I suppose you can get a Navajo endorsement"! Got into Qantas some time later.

[Metro man]

Recently I was in the crew room listening to one of our first officers complaining, his first job after getting his licence was A320 f/o but it would now take him FIVE YEARS to get upgraded. We have had people do it in three but that was in times of expansion along with higher than normal turnover.:hmm:

[pilotchute]

Metro. How does a cadet complaining about upgrade time ad to this thread?

Well as another poster said if they want to list CPL as the min and get 3000 applications that's their business. That just goes to show the lack of common courtesy they show the pilot community.

[Tankengine]

Metro. How does a cadet complaining about upgrade time ad to this thread?

Well as another poster said if they want to list CPL as the min and get 3000 applications that's their business. That just goes to show the lack of common courtesy they show the pilot community.

If you are expecting courtesy to the pilot community you are in the wrong industry, unfortunately.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Metro. How does a cadet complaining about upgrade time ad to this thread?
It illustrates the entitled attitude of some of these kids who don't know **** from brown clay and are blissfully unaware that they have been kissed on the cock by a fairy and had a dream run.

[pilotchute]

It illustrates the entitled attitude of some of these kids who don't know **** from brown clay and are blissfully unaware that they have been kissed on the cock by a fairy and had a dream run.

No Horatio it illustrates the disdain airline management have for pilots and their obsession with cost cutting. Why take hard working guys who have good situational awareness when you can run a cadet scheme at a profit?

People on here say "it's their train set" when it comes to hiring mins but then you complain when they hire cadets?

[romeocharlie]

pilotchute,

I'm not sticking up for cadets here but around the world, and not just in our little bubble in Aus, they are a reality and will continue to be. You can accept it, like accepting the train set minimums and move on, or you can go through life being bitter and hate every cadet that steps onto the flightdeck.

I can't stand entitlement whether it's from a 200hr cadet or some :mad: that used to be on 300k at Ansett in the 80's and whinging he isn't flying a 737 on that money now. I've had the displeasure of both and don't lose sleep over either.

[Kranz]

HR departments are hard to get through
GA is hard to progress through
GA to RPT is hard to transfer into
Cadetships are hard to secure

I think there is a common theme here and there doesn't seem to be any point complaining about it. Focus on being a good pilot, work hard, and try to enjoy your career however it pans out.

[Stacko]

....

Do Australians still have to go overseas to fly a 737/A320?. I thought that stopped in the 90's?

If you knew the history of the industry then you'd know that STARTED in the '90's...

[Metro man]

In the mid 1990s I had ATPL, 4400hrs total time including 2500 multi engine command and 700 f/o on a M/E turbine. I applied for a copilot job on a Metroliner which was advertised in Fridays Australian newspaper.

I didn't even get an interview, just a rejection letter stating that the job was for "ENDORSED" pilots only.

Not the best of times to be job hunting.