MERGED: Air Asia Turnback Perth 25 Jun 17

[Capn Bloggs]

For all we know the pilots might have been aware of the issues in the video just above and controlled the flight and vibration accordingly. Yet many are second guessing their assessments of the symptoms available to them in the conduct of obtaining safe flight and landing.
You're missing the point. Whatever the vibration, the engine was stuffed ie couldn't develop thrust. Surely that means land at nearest suitable (I'm not a bus pilot; their procedure may say "land an nearest convenient". Mine certainly doesn't)?.

ETOPS divert is at 320-335 KIAS.
I'm curious. What's your single best range speed?

[Veruka Salt]

Am current on the same type as the Air Asia aircraft. VMO/MMO is only used to establish the rule distance (in our case, 1272nm for 180 min EDTO). It is NOT a requirement to fly at VMO/MMO during an EDTO diversion; furthermore, the newer types in the fleet (A350/777ER) are based on VMO - 10.

In addition, as VMO on the A330 is 330 KIAS, a diversion at 325-335 KIAS isn't doable. FWIW, our company policy is initially a driftown at Green Dot. Thereafter, flight beyond the nearest 'suitable airport' is only justifiable following consideration of numerous factors related to increased safety. Would have been hard-pressed justifying a decision to continue past Learmonth.

But I wasn't there, so I don't have all the facts.

[Icarus2001]

Surely that means land at nearest suitable (I'm not a bus pilot; their procedure may say "land an nearest convenient". Mine certainly doesn't)?.

Yes but you are willfully missing the point that SUITABLE does not have a fixed definition in the context of an IFSD. The PIC makes that determination in the absence of FIXED meaning in the OM.

[framer]

Hi Misd-agin,
Veruka summed it up. The speed you are referring to is only used to determine the area. What you do in practice is up to you. Do you want to drift down slowly at green dot to avoid a mountain range and then cruise at s/e best range speed to arrive with more gas in tanks? Go for it. Do you want to go flat out because there is smoke in the cabin? Go for it.

[misd-agin]

Our SOP says 'set xyz' after diverting. As Veruka stated it appears to be in the range of Vmo minus 15-25(?) kts depending upon the aircraft type.


CA Bloggs - s/e LRC speed isn't provided to us in our performance pages. It is available in the FMC.

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

Christ. Think I'm going to start taking the bus.

[Capn Bloggs]

Think I'm going to start taking the bus.
Plenty of Air Asia pax do! :E

[WingNut60]

12?? days and still sitting engineless in the rain
Well, actually, it does have one.

[Tom Sawyer]

12?? days and still sitting engineless in the rain
Well, actually, it does have one.

And????

I've dealt with a number of AOG recoveries for engine incidents. Two weeks plus is not unusual. In this case the ATSB may have quarantined the aircraft for a few days first before releasing it for repair. Insurance assessors may have wanted to see the aircraft before any repairs were carried out. Engine manufacturer probably wanted to attend and inspect.

Basic engine, reversers, cowlings and all the additional parts that normally get swapped over (starter, IDG, EDPs) will have to be sourced as the ones on the damaged engine will be quarantined for investigation. Maybe additional spares required for any damage found in the wing/pylon. And then all will have to be air freighted from all over the world due to their size (have you seen the shipping containers for these items?) and getting them customs cleared.

Then there is getting the manpower, heavy lifting equipment, specialist tooling, sourcing access/maintenance stands.......and Perth is not exactly local to the main sources for these items with no large aircraft hangar or heavy maintenance equipment. Even dealing with the airport authority to get airside passes and escorts while in the secure area. Local Engineering support and liaison to assist?

Then there maybe additional inspections specified by Airbus/RR and resolving the findings from those inspections.

And they are doing the same for the aircraft in BNE!

You have no idea.

[tomcat264]

I won't believe this is real until a bonafide expert such as GT weighs in.

It's in his home turf after all.
GT ??? really lol he snoops around and when nobody tells him anything me makes **** up lol

[tomcat264]

Passenger said a turbine blade came off, did they google that?

WTF would a passenger know they all make it out to be 100x worse to the media.
Interview 50 pax and get 50 versions

[tomcat264]

Video from onboard shows a severe vibration.
That says to me that the engine wasn't shut down.
Why would the crew continue to run an engine with that vibration?
I realise that 2 is better than 1 but the vibration could cause other damage?
An official report says the Capt shut down the engine just after it happened but a source says the nose cone was pushed over and with wind milling effect it was off balance

[tomcat264]

Anyone seen the Flightradar24 track? They must have been not far from Learmonth if they were an hour or so into the flight.

ETOPS 180min PERTH 90min saves the company a lot of $$$ to bring it back to Perth. No pax transfer no crew engine transfer

[tomcat264]

From that article - "[Crew] said 'I hope you all say a prayer, I'll be saying a prayer too".
Wow ... is that a standard thing to say to calm people ?
A British Airways Capt once said "Ladies & Gentlemen we have a slight problem we've lost all 4 engines and we are working on rectifying the sitauation as soon ass possible thank you"

[kutu0062]

WTF would a passenger know they all make it out to be 100x worse to the media.
Interview 50 pax and get 50 versions

I was a passenger. Before we disembarked the captain stated that a blade had come off the number 1 engine and invited us to take a look from the window inside the terminal.

I recently heard it unofficially that the blade was ingested and did quite a lot of damage including destroying the oil cooler.

[WingNut60]

And????


No AND about it. I was simply describing what I was looking at as I waited to board my flight.

Seems like you read a bit more into it.

You have no idea.

Actually, I have a pretty good idea.
But thanks for your comprehensive contribution anyway.

There was an engine next to the aircraft but I suspect it was the damaged unit.
It was a bit hard to distinguish through the p.....ing rain.

At least Learmonth weather would have been kinder.

[swh]

And????

I've dealt with a number of AOG recoveries for engine incidents. Two weeks plus is not unusual.

You have no idea.

Our mob normally will do an A330 swap in under 8 hours. For an AOG situation the tools and engine arrive together on the same aircraft.

Being an LCC it would not surprise me that they don't have a spare engine which is the real delay.

Another issue sometimes is no main deck loader, most airports have loaders that do under floor loading, not all have loaders that can handle an engine from the main deck.

[WingNut60]

For the record, it seems that the aircraft left Perth for Manila as flight D7688 on Tuesday evening 11 July and appears to be still in Manila.

[WingNut60]

And is now back in service, as of 17 July following 5 days in Manila.

[WingNut60]

ATSB indicating final report due for release within this month - Jan 2018

Revised date for report - April 2018

[kirkc]

ATSB indicating final report due for release within this month - Jan 2018

Revised date for report - April 2018

Annnd now it says 4th quarter of 2018.

Meanwhile it's business as usual for Air Asia in Australia.

[AerialPerspective]

I won't believe this is real until a bonafide expert such as GT weighs in.

It's in his home turf after all.

Oh I don’t believe it at all because GT tweeted the other day that he’s changed his mind and would happily fly with Air Asia now because they’re in the process of doing IOSA... like everybody’s been waiting with baited breath for him to spew out his drivel about each airline. I’m sure people have been holding off on booking their holidays until they here from this ‘expert’.

[tripelapidgeon]

A British Airways Capt once said "Ladies & Gentlemen we have a slight problem we've lost all 4 engines and we are working on rectifying the sitauation as soon ass possible thank you"
His name was Eric Moody a man of true understatement. Remember seeing an interview with him and his description of the the flight deck conversation on the 747-200. " Oh golly gosh I think we have lost all four" Maybe there may have been some expletives in there as well.

[kirkc]

Annnd now it says 4th quarter of 2018.

Meanwhile it's business as usual for Air Asia in Australia.

Is this normal? It now says expected completion of the investigation is the 1st quarter of 2019. They just keep pushing it out every 3 months.

What's to stop something like this happening again in the meantime? I'm wondering if someone at the ATSB has shares in Air Asia or something.

[wheels_down]

Still waiting for this one. I know Mr Hood reads here if someone could give us an eta?

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2016/aair/ao-2016-084/

[kirkc]

Is this normal? It now says expected completion of the investigation is the 1st quarter of 2019. They just keep pushing it out every 3 months.

What's to stop something like this happening again in the meantime? I'm wondering if someone at the ATSB has shares in Air Asia or something.

What a joke, they just push it out each quarter. ATSB now says the report is due out 4th quarter 2019...for a 'Serious Incident'...that occurred 2 years ago. Good thing aviation safety isan't important or anything.

Edit: If these clowns can't even provide an ETA accurate to within 18-24 months for the report how the hell can we have confidence in their ability to keep us all safe?

[porch monkey]

You rely on them to keep you safe???? Really??? Good luck with that plan........

[WingNut60]

Annnd now it says 4th quarter of 2018.

Meanwhile it's business as usual for Air Asia in Australia.

Annnd now it says 1st quarter of 2020.
Now 3-1/2 years for a report.

What a joke, they just push it out each quarter. ATSB now says the report is due out 4th quarter 2019...for a 'Serious Incident'...that occurred 2 years ago. Good thing aviation safety isan't important or anything.

Edit: If these clowns can't even provide an ETA accurate to within 18-24 months for the report how the hell can we have confidence in their ability to keep us all safe?

[PoppaJo]

I assume they have all but given up on this one as the due date was 2 Quarters ago.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2016/aair/ao-2016-084/

How hard can a separation review be? We are not dealing with the steam gauge technology of 70 years ago.

There must be some form of trade deals underway between Indo land and Malaysia. Wouldn’t want to get the government offside by slapping sanctions or bans on its carriers. I mean safety comes last right?

[Stickshift3000]

How hard can a separation review be? We are not dealing with the steam gauge technology of 70 years ago

Writing a factual report (following a thorough investigation) is the easy bit.

Politics will be involved in getting agreement from Air Asia regarding the final report - they will be strongly against any detrimental findings against them. I imagine that getting agreement on the final report may even require money to change hands; Australian agencies don’t work like this. The delay is likely not the fault of the ATSB.

[zanthrus]

Who cares what Air Asia thinks of the content of an ATSB report. Their aircraft was proven unsafe. The facts must be reported in a full and accurate manner. regardless of a potential loss of face. This report has taken far too long to be finalised. Definitely some dodgy dealing going on. Disgusting!

[WingNut60]

Just to clarify, we're talking about (at least) TWO inordinately delayed reports here - both for Air Asia

9M-XXE following event near Carnarvon, WA - July 2017

and

9M-XXC - BNE July 2016

[PoppaJo]

There is more also...I’ve actually lost count over the years of how many they had going at any given time so there could be more.

Engine Shutdown 2016

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2016/aair/ao-2016-101/

OOL Alt Bust 2016

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2016/aair/ao-2016-124/

[Tom Sawyer]

Who cares what Air Asia thinks of the content of an ATSB report. Their aircraft was proven unsafe. The facts must be reported in a full and accurate manner. regardless of a potential loss of face. This report has taken far too long to be finalised. Definitely some dodgy dealing going on. Disgusting!

Where was it proven that their aircraft was unsafe? From what I know, it was purely a fan blade failure which may or may not have had something to do with poor maintenance, design issue, blade fatigue, blade damage........none of which have been confirmed due to no final report being published as yet with the root cause.

[Tom Sawyer]

Final Report released.....

​​​​​​https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2017/aair/ao-2017-066/

[neville_nobody]

As the north-western part of Australia had sparse coverage of available alternate aerodromes, the operator had included Learmonth in the list of nominated aerodromes, but specifically as an emergency alternate. While Learmonth was significantly closer at the time of the engine failure, an emergency alternate aerodrome was only to be used in the case of a dire emergency.

What's the definition of a 'dire emergency'?

[airdualbleedfault]

Apparently a siezed engine shaking the 5hit out of the aircraft is not dire??
Whatever, Air Asia, you get exactly what you deserve

[PoppaJo]

What's the definition of a 'dire emergency'?
For this mob probably Glide Approach....Tail falls off....meteor hits aircraft...then they MIGHT consider diverting.

[tallyho92]

I certainly won`t fly with this mob, heard they got rid of a bunch of seniors recently and the leftovers are junior guys that like to hang out with the director of flight ops, guess that`s why they are still there. The guys that had these incidences, the dive and drive in gold coast in Sept 2016, the pedal to metal at 400ft out of Tullamarine, and the incident in Aug 2016 that RTB to melbourne from Sydney with an engine failure, the crew tried starting the badly damaged engine not once but twice instead of diverting to AS😖,it pays to hangout with the boss.
Nope i definitely won`t fly with them regardless how cheap the tickets are, and if they cancel the flights, which seems to happen with these bunch, the chances of getting a refund is slim to none, caveat emptor.

[Chris2303]

Apparently a siezed engine shaking the 5hit out of the aircraft is not dire??
Whatever, Air Asia, you get exactly what you deserve

But do the people down the back deserve it?