Help! Advice for a biz jet upgrade

[Bizjetlover]

Hi guys !
Me and my family are looking to upgrade our bizjet, a 2003 lear 60. As we also have another Lear it's important that the new aircraft have: 8 pax minimum, medium to long range to go to us (miami or ny) and Europe (Once a month), and not to be a wallet killer. We ve been looking to legacy 600, cl604, f2000, g200 and now we've been offer a gently used global express with no programs for the same money? What about a g300/g400? Would be crazy to consider it? As it would be for family use and sometimes chartering it to lower annual costs, our doubt is that with the first mentioned planes you would have to upgrade in 5/10 years for a long range, and in the other option you have no need to upgrade it anymore for performance, you would have anything you need, pax capacity, range etc.
The jet will be based in Argentina.
Thanks!

[Amadis of Gaul]

If you're going to dream, why not dream big? How does the new A330NEO ACJ sound?

[Jet Jockey A4]

All I'm going to say is a Global will cost a lot more to operate than all those aircrafts.

Don't get me wrong the Global is a fantastic aircraft, we operate 3 of them plus a 604 and the cost between the two types is not even close.

[x933]

Global without programmes makes my teeth itch unless it's been owned/ run by a maintenance company.

G-IV/G450/GV would meet that mission I think.

[Amadis of Gaul]

Global without programmes makes my teeth itch unless it's been owned/ run by a maintenance company.

G-IV/G450/GV would meet that mission I think.

As would a 747-8i BBJ.

[Bizjetlover]

Thanks for the answers!
Remember please I have a budget, but when I believed globals or big stuff were imposible then I saw a 2000 glex in my money. What is the biggest problem for the expenses? I saw gas would be 1500$ per hour, compare to $1000 for a cl604. That would not be a huge problem because it has more room, flies faster, and I don't make a fuel stop which reduces costs on 2 landings. Falcón 2000 its a very nice option but I'm afraid that when full seats it can do very much, do you think it can still do 2500nm? What do you think for the g200? It's expensive to maintain? I heard it's a strip hog but I do not operate on small airports (Europe) so often so it's not a problem. Really what would you buy?

[Bizjetlover]

Thank guys!
F2000 it's an option. But I heard when fully seated they lose range very much. What are the real numbers when fully seated (10pax)
To make the bigstep to a G400 or a global would be a dream, as it would make almost everything non stop. How much would it cost to operate? Much more? For example on the route Buenos Aires-miami? I know a 604 or a g200 consume less fuel, but it would be 2 more fly hours because of the fuel stop and also I would have 4 landings (1 fuel stop each time) compare to 2 in the global or g400. As you may note I want to see the pros on large used bird haha, but I'm afraid I can't afford to operate it.

[space-shuttle-driver]

Santiago to Miami is 3600NM, so G200 and Legacy won't qualify.
G300/400 will be cheaper to buy than the G450/550 but the operating cost will be the same as the bigger Gulfs. F2000 must be the LX version, the classic ones won't have the necessary range. 605s are now cheap on the market, and plenty of them, and cheaper than F2000. If you can live with a ''pig with lipstick'' at FL410 then there is not much wrong with this airplane.

[bizjetway]

Bizjetlover send me a PM and I can run some complimentary comparisons between the various jets and point you in the right direction.

[EatMyShorts!]

Falcon 2000EX or LX EASy II might be what you like. Cruise at M0.83 (effectively) and you can squeeze out just over 7 hours of flying time. If you reduce to M0.80 or long range cruise, 9 hours are possible (I did that already). Not sure if you can do SCEL-KMIA in one go, the LX might do it.

Globals are quite expensive in maintenance, from what I could gather. All planes are expensive, but the Global seems to be in a higher category. Probably a second hand BBJ might even be cheaper!? I would not rule it out.

[atakacs]

I am sure that you are aware that 2nd hand prices are cratering at the moment. So whatever you do you are definitely in a buyer market.

[Amadis of Gaul]

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1442315/1982-boeing-727-200-super27

Just for the coolness factor.

[Jet Jockey A4]

Falcon 2000EX or LX EASy II might be what you like. Cruise at M0.83 (effectively) and you can squeeze out just over 7 hours of flying time. If you reduce to M0.80 or long range cruise, 9 hours are possible (I did that already). Not sure if you can do SCEL-KMIA in one go, the LX might do it.

Globals are quite expensive in maintenance, from what I could gather. All planes are expensive, but the Global seems to be in a higher category. Probably a second hand BBJ might even be cheaper!? I would not rule it out.

I have always heard that the Falcons were the most expensive to upkeep.

[7Q Off]

GIVSP, just 1 stop to europe and NYC, and depends on the load I think direct from aeroparque or ezeiza to Miami area. You will have privacy fron the crew as they have their own Fwd lavatory. With RR engines always have a maint program.

the challenger 604 is a nice machine but I think with a big load you will have 2 stops to europe (depend on the load you may save a stop on one of the legs) and 1 to USA. I think that from recife you can
make it to madrid with 3 or 4 plus crew.

http://performanceflight.com/charter/range_map

you can use this as a guidance for some aircraft. Is not exact data but as a guidance is fine.

[Bizjetlover]

Hey guys thanks for the messages.
I know a 2000 lx would be great but it is out of budget.
g200 it's a bad machine?
G4 sp vs 604 is there a lot of difference in costs or it's just the 100 gallon per hour of fuel consumption?
What about falcon 2000 classic? What are the real numbers.

[LCYFlyer]

Hi,

With your budget i don't think you will be getting to Miami let alone New York ( with the G200,CL604) without an fuel stop which may add a bit of journey time but seen as your travel purpose is leisure rather than business it need not be as bad , In addition without looking at an abundance of factors a plane with a smaller range generally has a lower operating cost.

If you do look for a plane with 3800nm+ range you should ask yourself does the extra range really match what your typical missions are is the extra cost of the aircraft and ongoing cost of the aircraft worth it for 12 trips a year to Europe. There's a clear conflict of interest if a) you want a luxury long range private jet but b) you don't want it to be a wallet killer.

As you don't want something that's an wallet killer the worst case is buying a plane that you can't afford to operate - I think the Hawker 900 or Hawker 800XPR is ideal it will take longer to get to America or Europe due to more fuel stops but it's operating cost will be considerably less. The G200 you mentioned will do the same as the Hawker 900 but get there a little quicker and have an larger cabin but the operating cost will be soo much more.

Reading back through my post it appears a little loud but that is not my intention.

[juliet]

So what is the actual budget? For purchase and annual operating costs?

[Bizjetlover]

6 million.
Whát would be your choice ?
Operating costs not for a sheikh! Total costs on a Buenos Aires miami Buenos Aires no more than 50k

[aerochip]

GIV/SP for $5m purchase or an early GV for under $10m would fit all your missions. The 604 and Falcon 2000EX Classic (perhaps add winglets) will do many of the missions but really don't have the fill the seats and fill the tanks range of the GIV/SP. I wouldn't consider the G200 - it will be range limited and the cabin is much smaller than the Falcon or the Gulfstream. Operating cost between the big airplanes is really just the difference in cost of fuel and where you fall in the maintenance cycle. If the Falcon needs a C check or the Gulfstream needs a 72/96 month, there will be big costs. I'm more bullish on the GIV/SP as the engines are cheap to operate ($253 Corporate Care Rate today), crew is readily available, support is robust, and the airplane won't leave you wanting for more range or more room. Sounds like it would fit the budget too. I have a partner in BA, hit me on PM and we can talk further.

[bizjetway]

I know of a great Falcon 900EX with winglets that can be bought for less than $8M

[Bizjetlover]

Yes but it is a 1996? I saw it in internet.
The problem i travel with my family. 1996 not for me. Should be 2000 and upwards.
When I speak about a 604 or g200 I'm speaking 2005/2006 models.
My favorite is the G4 sp or g400 but everyone told me gulfstream are terrible expensive to maintain.
Btw are really important the winglets in the falcons so that to pay 800k for the modification? I'm mean they look nice, but I've told the don't change anything in terms of performance.

[Cessna5370M]

Yes but it is a 1996? I saw it in internet.
The problem i travel with my family. 1996 not for me. Should be 2000 and upwards.
When I speak about a 604 or g200 I'm speaking 2005/2006 models.
My favorite is the G4 sp or g400 but everyone told me gulfstream are terrible expensive to maintain.
Btw are really important the winglets in the falcons so that to pay 800k for the modification? I'm mean they look nice, but I've told the don't change anything in terms of performance.

Can you post your contact details? I have airplanes matching your requirements.

[Jet Jockey A4]

@Bizjetlover...

"6 million"

"Total costs on a Buenos Aires miami Buenos Aires no more than 50k"

With those numbers don't even think Global Express or G5/550 way too expensive.

A return flight like you mention above on the big planes would be double your budget.

I don't think you could get a 605 with a 6 million dollar budget but I could be wrong.

I remember that when we operated a GIV SP it would burn at least 25% more gas than the 604 and its operating cost were overall higher but I don't have the details to this.

Also remember that both the 604 and GIV series aircraft are getting old and may need expensive maintenance and that their avionics will need to be extensively upgraded in the future to meet the new norms (CPDLC, ADSB and so on). This would also apply to Falcon 2000s.

If you could find a 605 with the latest avionics, perhaps that could be a good aircraft for you.

[DutchDutch]

Buenas tardes Bizjetlover,

I just read your post! Quite interesting!

I know people that sell airplanes, some speak spanish and all of them are very helpful.

If you need help to find the right airplane, send me a message and I will help you out!

The way I look at it, the more planes you have to choose from the better.

Safe flights!

[Klimax]

WOW. Happy not to work with an owner that can "sort of" afford a private jet - yet searches for perfection - and likely don't have a freaking clue about the cost of operating one... Guess that's why I stick with G650 owners.

[Amadis of Gaul]

WOW. Happy not to work with an owner that can "sort of" afford a private jet - yet searches for perfection - and likely don't have a freaking clue about the cost of operating one... Guess that's why I stick with G650 owners.

Chillax, Klimax, I doubt he actually owns anything or can afford anything above a Hasegawa kit.

[EatMyShorts!]

If he is serious about his budget etc., I'd recommend to keep a medium size jet for South Americann/regional operations, but use First Class on the airlines to travel to the US. It will be cheaper and quicker in the end.

[SpaceWrangler]

Yes but it is a 1996? I saw it in internet.
The problem i travel with my family. 1996 not for me. Should be 2000 and upwards.
When I speak about a 604 or g200 I'm speaking 2005/2006 models.
My favorite is the G4 sp or g400 but everyone told me gulfstream are terrible expensive to maintain.
Btw are really important the winglets in the falcons so that to pay 800k for the modification? I'm mean they look nice, but I've told the don't change anything in terms of performance.

I am currently buying a G200 for a client and there are some deals to be had in that mid 2000 range. Early SN (2000,2001) should go in the high $2s- low $3s. Most of the inventory is at the lower end of the market or towards newer models. I know of at least 2 2005s and newer that can be had in the mid $4Ms. Shoot me a PM if you would like me to share some more detailed market intel with you.

[G280]

The G200 is a great aircraft for the price at the moment.

[aerochip]

BizJetLover - check your PM please.