Elderly fast jet pilots

[tartare]

...and before anyone gets too insulted, the title is tongue in cheek. ;)
Is there a rough age band by which one starts to become a danger to oneself or others when flying fast jets in terms of reaction times etc?
I note that many VVSOs around the world (Mark Binskin here in Oz, various RAF VVSOs and current CAS) are all ex-fast jet pilots; is there a rough age or career stage when you swap the helmet and mask for a desk if you're going to decide to stay in the forces long term?
Do some VVSOs do primarily administrative and leadership roles, but remain current by flying regular sorties?

EDIT: Well there you go - would have never imagined this (http://www.manspacemagazine.com.au/hobbies-outdoorstouch-sky/). Good on him. Imagine the muscle memory Phil must have after 40 years on jets...

[Pontius Navigator]

Hearing and eye sight does it for a lot of contenders.

[Basil]

For the rest of us it's just:
'The older we get, the better we were.' ;)

[Tankertrashnav]

I think I'm right in saying that during WW2 you were regarded as "past it" as a fighter pilot by the time you were 30!

[Green Flash]

Tankert - Indeed. Assuming of course that you were still alive at age 30! :eek:

[Danny42C]

Air Chief Marshal Sir George Augustus "Gus" Walker, in 1958 at the age of 46, flew a Hunter F6 from Strubby when Commandant of the Empire Flying College at Manby.

He had a prostheses (for his missing R.forearm) specially adapted for the purpose.

[57mm]

IIRC, Arthur Vine was an F4 QFI at a ripe old age.....

[5aday]

The 'claim to fame' in this family was that my father was Station QFI / Master Green on Hunter T7 based at Gutersloh at the tender age of 43. He was referred to as Pop whilst in the air and David ( or Sir) to his face. His rank from the mid fifties until he retired in 1968 was Master Pilot.

[goudie]

Danny, when he was appointed AOC No 1 Group he flew a Meteor Mk8. I strapped him in a few times, when he visited RAF Scampton.

[superplum]

Air Chief Marshal Sir George Augustus "Gus" Walker, in 1958 at the age of 46, flew a Hunter F6 from Strubby when Commandant of the Empire Flying College at Manby.

He had a prostheses (for his missing R.forearm) specially adapted for the purpose.

I recall him flying a Meteor F? as his transport for a staff visit to Church Fenton in 63 or 64.

[kintyred]

EDIT: Well there you go - would have never imagined this (http://www.manspacemagazine.com.au/hobbies-outdoorstouch-sky/). Good on him. Imagine the muscle memory Phil must have after 40 years on jets...[/QUOTE]

From the article

“For training purposes we normally pull about 5G but the aircrafts are capable of pulling eight. That’s eight times your body weight. Your head weighs about 15-18kg so multiply that by eight – it’s a pretty impressive thing.

So that's why I never made it to FJs - my head simply wasn't heavy enough!

[Jackonicko]

Cough: Dave Southwood……..

[Big Pistons Forever]

I believe the RCAF has a Reservist who is current on the CF 18 in a front line squadron and is in his Fifties

[Jackonicko]

In his fifties? Dave Southwood (62) and Phil Frawley (61) would doubtless call him 'Junior', Big Pistons Forever.

[just another jocky]

My last trip in a Tonka was at the ripe old age of 49, indeed I was on ops in Afghanistan on my 49th birthday. But I was far from the oldest to fly her, with some recently finished in their fifties. There may even still be some old fogies flying.


I'm not convinced quick reflexes or reactions are ever the secret to flying a FJ, more like common sense and an ability to deal calmly with rapidly changing scenarios. But that's not as funny as some of the other contributions.

[Old Bricks]

If the head weighed 15-18kg, no matter how good the elderly pilot was, he'd never be able to get a bone-dome on, let alone close the cockpit canopy! He'd look like ET - although, come to think of it, I have met the odd pilot who did look just like ET. Try about 5kg......
OB

[Jackonicko]

Back in the War, there were a number of 'elderly' aircrew who'd flown in the previous conflict.

Group Captain Stanley Vincent was the only RFC/RAF pilot to shoot down enemy aircraft in both world wars. Vincent was station commander of RAF Northolt during the Battle of Britain (aged 43), and claimed seven unconfirmed kills. After the war he became the 'father' of the BBMF.

Colonel Marcel Émile Haegelen was a World War I French flying ace credited with 22 victories in the Great War. Mobilised as fighter pilot at the beginning of World War II, he gained his 23rd victory on 14 June 1940 while flying a Curtiss H 75.

Theodor "Theo" Osterkamp was a German fighter ace scoring 32 victories in World War I. He led Jagdgeschwader 51 through the Battle of Britain (until replaced by Werner Mölders on 23 July) and claimed a further 6 victories. He was 48 years old during the Battle.

Oberst Harry von Bülow-Bothkamp scored six victories in World War I, he became a Luftwaffe ace in World War II, leading Commodore of Jagdgeschwader 2 and scoring 12 additional victories. He was 43 years old during the Battle.

Oberstleutnant Erich Mix trained as a fighter pilot and posted to Jagdstaffel 54, where, as an Unteroffizer from June 1918 until the end of the war, he scored three aerial victories (and one unconfirmed balloon). He commanded III./JG 2 in March 1940 and claimed eight (potentially 13) aerial victories before becoming one of the older, WWI era commanders dismissed by Göring in favour of younger, up-and-coming aces in September 1940.

[enginesuck]

When I was a young liney at TTTE there was a Sqn Ldr Called Gordon Reikie (sic?) (pronounced reekie) He seemed ancient probably late 50s ? He used to terrorise the Italian students - I saw one almost in tears whilst strapping in on one occasion.

[tanimbar]

"Some of our worst losses occurred through defective leadership on the part of a unit commander, who might lead his pilots into a trap or be caught while climbing by an enemy formation approaching out of the sun. During periods of intense activity promotions to the command of fighter squadrons should be made on the recommendation of Group Commanders from amongst Flight Commanders experienced in the methods of the moment. If and when it is necessary to post a Squadron Leader (however gallant and experienced) from outside the Command, he should humbly start as an ordinary member of the formation until he has gained experience. Only exceptionally should officers over 26 years of age be posted to command Fighter squadrons."

Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh C. T. Dowding. Despatch submitted to the Secretary of State for Air on August 20th, 1941.

My italics. In this case it seems Dowding recognised that age-gained experience can be detrimental; a little on-the-job retraining was required and an age limit recommended to stop the influx of older, stuffy officers leading squadrons.

[GeeRam]

Back in the War, there were a number of 'elderly' aircrew who'd flown in the previous conflict.

Group Captain Stanley Vincent was the only RFC/RAF pilot to shoot down enemy aircraft in both world wars. Vincent was station commander of RAF Northolt during the Battle of Britain (aged 43), and claimed seven unconfirmed kills. After the war he became the 'father' of the BBMF.

Colonel Marcel Émile Haegelen was a World War I French flying ace credited with 22 victories in the Great War. Mobilised as fighter pilot at the beginning of World War II, he gained his 23rd victory on 14 June 1940 while flying a Curtiss H 75.

Theodor "Theo" Osterkamp was a German fighter ace scoring 32 victories in World War I. He led Jagdgeschwader 51 through the Battle of Britain (until replaced by Werner Mölders on 23 July) and claimed a further 6 victories. He was 48 years old during the Battle.

Oberst Harry von Bülow-Bothkamp scored six victories in World War I, he became a Luftwaffe ace in World War II, leading Commodore of Jagdgeschwader 2 and scoring 12 additional victories. He was 43 years old during the Battle.

Oberstleutnant Erich Mix trained as a fighter pilot and posted to Jagdstaffel 54, where, as an Unteroffizer from June 1918 until the end of the war, he scored three aerial victories (and one unconfirmed balloon). He commanded III./JG 2 in March 1940 and claimed eight (potentially 13) aerial victories before becoming one of the older, WWI era commanders dismissed by Göring in favour of younger, up-and-coming aces in September 1940.

And didn't Gerhard Barkhorn (301 WW2 victories) and Gunther Rall (275 WW2 victories) maintain their F-104 currency on into the 1970's despite their, by then, high rank....??

[Capt Scribble]

Had the pleasure to work with Gordon Reekie and Chris Heames at TTTE, I think Chris is still flying the Hunter at St Athan.

[just another jocky]

Had the pleasure to work with Gordon Reekie and Chris Heames at TTTE, I think Chris is still flying the Hunter at St Athan.


Are Hunters flying again then?


Heamesy taught me to fly the Hunter and Reeks was definitely of a characterful age when he stopped flying the Tonka. :ok:

[MPN11]

While young Arthur was a Shackleton pilot, with a short time on BN2 among other types.I knew Young Arthur well in the Shooting community, and I'm almost sure I met his dad at Manby/Strubby.
Has Young Arthur dried out yet, or has he gone to the great Beyond? He was a Fungi to be with on occasions, and a bloody good marksman.

[H Peacock]

I'm not so sure Chris Heames is actually that old - he just looks it!!

[LOMCEVAK]

The current maximum age for single pilot flying under UK MAA rules is 65. If a pilot has always flown fast jets then, generally, there is no significant reduction in flying ability with age and g tolerance is not affected. The issue is that if someone has a break away from fast jet flying then the older they are, the longer and harder it is to get back up to speed. The motor skills of controlling an aircraft do not tend to perish but the airmanship does. Also, technology moves on so there may be new technology operating skills to be learnt.

I know of a pilot who is over 60 and is currently flying 3 fast jet types under MAA regulation and gets current to fly a fourth type when required. This includes delivering high onset rate g training and flying aviation medicine trials at 9g. He has been flying fast jets for 39 years continuously other than a brief couple of years flying for an airline. As a child, he wanted to be a pilot when he grew up. He achieved 50% of this; he became a pilot but didn't grow up!

On a serious note, there is a difference between just flying the aeroplanes and flying on operations and above I am not considering flying in combat; that is a separate discussion.

[Jackonicko]

He sounds like quite a chap, Lomcevak!

[JEM60]

JUSTANOTHERJOCKY. No civilian Hunters flying, apart from the Military Contract ones [at Scampton??]/ Mr. Heames flies Gnats regularly at North Weald.

[Teamchief]

I remember Geoff Timms still flying Harriers in his sixties!!!! I believe he finally retired aged 62. He was meticulous on his walk rounds and had eyes like a S*** House Rat!

Pat King was another, he could make 6600lbs of fuel last longer than anyone! Just tootling around, we often used to think he was overdue. The old saying old pilots and bold pilots used to spring to mind.

[Treble one]

There's hope for me yet a 49 then!


I have serious envy at some of you guys on here! I'd just love to sit in a fast jet, but if anyone wants to take me on a sortie, I'll happily get strapped in and enjoy the ride!

[jindabyne]

I last flew a Tornado from TTTE with Freeks in 1995. A combined age of 101 in the cockpit.:)

[scorpion63]

I last flew a Tornado from TTTE with Freeks in 1995. A combined age of 101 in the cockpit.:)

Canberra TT18 Bournemouth to Temora Australia 2002 combined age in the cockpit 159

[Firestreak]

Maybe not a fast jet but flew a Tucano when the combined age of the 2 occupants was in excess of 120 years. Between us we had flown Venom, Hunter, Sea Vixen, Lightning, Buccaneer, Phantom, Hawk, Tornado.

[60024]

I was approaching my 56th birthday when I stopped in March. A month or so before that I flew in a 111 yr old cockpit on an OLF sortie👹👹. If it's all you've ever done then it is perfectly normal.

[Hoddy]

Ref the pilot referred to by LOMCEVAK, I think I first flew with him on 5 Oct 1979. Good to hear he is still going strong!

[H Peacock]

Not technically fast jet (albeit it was a pure jet and also pretty darn fast!) but a particular Canberra T4 QFI check sortie had a combined age of over 160years!

Back to fast jets, although the 2 QFIs certainly weren't youngsters, I recall a Hawk pairs sortie where all 4 of us had the same surname! No, it wasn't Smith!!!

[Ascend Charlie]

In the 70s in Oz, the OC of the main bomber base, who was a Canberra pilot, decided he had to fly every machine on his base. He had some dual training in a Huey, pronounced himself ready for a solo, and with a Sgt crewman in the left seat (all the squadron pilots disappeared and the Sgt was the only one left sleeping) proceeded to pick up to the hover and have a stinger strike. Normally this requires an inspection, but the Air Cdre continued on and scared the Sgt sh1tless.

Next on his list was the F-111, and again he had some dual trng (VFR only) and declared he would go solo. A navigator who would be able to fly the bird himself was offered as a sacrifice, and away he went. After a short while he told the nav to turn on the TFR. "Sorry sir you are not qualified on TFR."
"TURN IT ON, FLIGHT LIEUTENANT!" - OK it gets turned on, and OC was scooting around at low level, when the TFR decided it had enough, had a failure, and went into a 3-g pullup. OC sits there, watching airspeed decay, as he doesn't understand what is going on.
"Push the over-ride button on the stick, sir..." says the nav.
OC over-rides the TFR and regains some semblance of flight, but when he releases the button it pulls up again. OC says to self "Self! Keep yer finger on the over-ride and it can't fly up like that!" so there he is with finger on button and hand-flying at 450kt at zot feet.

On return, Nav goes to Base XO, a Gp Capt, and relates the story. Gp Capt asks Air Cdre if this is correct, OC replies "The Flt Lt is lying!"

Another base, a few years later, OC decides to fly the Orion. While flopping around the skies, he is passed by a Mirage. He thinks he can show the Mirage a thing or two, so he grabs the throttles and firewalls all 4. However, comma, only the Engineer is supposed to operate the throttles, as the engines are powerfiul enough to overstress the wing under such conditions. And again, with a damaged aircraft, OC blithely continued on.

And if you reckoned YOUR air force was run by dills, this dill made it all the way to the top of ours.

[MACH2NUMBER]

At the age of 48, still flying the Tornado, only occasionally, I found my ability to read flip cards at night and pull lots of G was no longer optimum. I had always felt that before the point that a Nav may worry about my pilot capabilities, I would hang up my wings. I was in a fortunate position to do so and have had no regrets.

[Wensleydale]

Not a pilot, but Plt Off Bernard Green was 52 when he was shot down in a 44 Sqn Hampden during WW2. He fought in the First World War, was wounded twice, and ended the War as a major in the Machine Gun Corps.


He joined the RAF at the beginning of WW2 as a plt off and became an air gunner due to his MG experience. His 44 Sqn Hampden was shot down on his first mission, and "Pop" became a POW. He was sent to Stalag Luft III and took part in the Great Escape although he believed that his age contributed to his escape from execution by the Gestapo after he was recaptured.


His biography is an interesting read...


https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51O758rbvLL._SX320_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-War-Escape-Lieutenant-Bernard/dp/095626963X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1498981120&sr=8-2&keywords=Great+War+to+Great+Escape

[ShyTorque]

Some years ago I visited a war memorial cemetery in Berlin as part of a short RAF detachment. I found it very sad and sobering to realise that noted that at the age of 35 I was much older than most of the allied aircrew interred there and old enough to be the father of some of them.

I'm not saying how many years ago it was, but it was before the wall came down...and I'm still flying for a living... thankfully not on FJ.

[jindabyne]

Ascend,

A good man though, for all that.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Hi Shy,

Still flying for a living here too, and although not fast jet our 'wing'-tips are occasionally transonic which might count for summat.

Did an OPC on one of our contract pilots t'other day (we'd been on the same QHI course in 1984); combined age in the cockpit was 129 and would've been 130 if we'd waited 'til mid-July.

[Onceapilot]

I'd never thought I'd see Tornado and pull lots of G's in the same sentence.

What a crass comment, against an honest and measured post! . Furthermore, I think any IDS Tornado could show a Typhoon a thing or two in IMC LL . :)

OAP

[Pontius Navigator]

Ascend Charlie, our base commander at Akrotiri had the same idea. He flew the Vulcan, with a competent adult as safety, then the Lightning against the Vulcan. Then jumped in a Herc before jumpiy out into Limasol Bay, picked up by a Whirlwind which landed at Ladies Mile. The crew jumped out and made their own way home while he flew it back to dispersal.

[kaitakbowler]

Ascend Charlie, our base commander at Akrotiri had the same idea. He flew the Vulcan, with a competent adult as safety, then the Lightning against the Vulcan. Then jumped in a Herc before jumpiy out into Limasol Bay, picked up by a Whirlwind which landed at Ladies Mile. The crew jumped out and made their own way home while he flew it back to dispersal.

JS? Of white LR fame.

[Ascend Charlie]

The crew jumped out and made their own way home while he flew it back to dispersal.

Well, the Sgt crewman wished that he could have jumped out...

The same OC called all the officers into the main briefing room, and said that everybody was wearing their hair too long, in contravention of Air Force Order Blah bluddy blah. If we broke THAT rule, then we probably would break the Flying Orders too, therefore, any officer with long hair was dangerous, and we were all grounded until we got a haircut.

Suddenly we were all safe again after a visit to the base barber. Jindabyne, this man was a d1ck. And he tried to be state governor after finishing with us.

[TBM-Legend]

The great ace Robin Olds was 45 when he led the 8th Wing in the Vietnam War including conceiving Operation Bolo...and he was killing Migs...

[MACH2NUMBER]

Onceapilot,
Thanks for your kind support, I flew the F15 in younger days - a 9G machine - but age catches up on everyone.
Many other factors mitigate against flying too long in cutting edge machines including the distraction of other responsibility.

[Onceapilot]

M2N, :ok:

OAP

[Haraka]

Very many years ago I did subject work related to "g" tolerance (without trousers) in the human centrifuge at the then IAM at RAF Farnborough, incidentally home of the first RAF officers' mess.
My ego was somewhat dented when I found myself at first greying out (progressive loss of colour and peripheral vision) followed by blacking out (fully conscious initially but no vision) at about 3.1 to 3.5 "g".
The aviation doctors explained to me that they would have been concerned had I demonstrated a higher "g" threshold .
This higher "g"threshold could be expected from an older pilot who was developing arterial hardening ( thus no expansion of the blood vessels volume taking blood away from the brain) as a part of an an age related process.

[Boy_From_Brazil]

Wasn't Pablo Mason well into his 50's when he was flying ops into Iraq?

[MACH2NUMBER]

Haraka,
Interesting point you make. The Brookes centrifuge in the USA allowed 8 G for 30 seconds without G suite. Those pilots who passed out usually did so on the downside when the G came off and they relaxed at the end of a very painful process.

[Mogwi]

Done my bit of FJ flying inc Hunter, Harrier (fast?) F16 etc and was displaying Yak 50 to +7 / -3 down to 50' until the current Mrs M made me sell it for a Tiger Moth when I turned 66. Last flew a Bona Jet at the age of 55 and found the only snag (after 10 years off) was that they had made all the instruments fuzzy!

Swing the lamp.

[tartare]

Most would regard the bona jet as fast I think Lt Cdr Morgan ;)
This arvo was watching the youtube video of you talking about the Falklands...

[Treble one]

A lot of warbird pilots would be of the 'senior' variety? Although won't ever get to pull fast jet G levels you may get in ACM, then they will be pulling 2-3G fairly routinely?


What can you get up to when displaying a high performance warbird (Griffon engine Spitfire/ Bearcat/Fury/Sea Fury) for example-up to 5G?