Are CVFDR mandatory in SAR heli's?

[zaplead]

One of the AAIB rec's of the Kent Air Ambulance crash was the fitting of Combined Voice & Flight Data Recorders.
They have been used to aid investigations into SAR incidents, for instance the loss of Bill Deacon-are they mandatory for SAR helicopters or is it company policy to install them?
Would be grateful for any feedback.......:)

[Thomas coupling]

They are compulsory in the 3 tonne class and above. Don't know if this is extended to SAR at any weight.

[[email protected]]

They are not compulsory in Military SAR aircraft although the Mk3A Sea King has them whilst the Mk 3 does not.

[simfly]

Zaplead, I find your question interesting, but trying to see the relevance to Bill Deacon's tragic incident. He was down on the deck of a cargo vessel, I don't think a CVFDR would be any different to a CVR in helping determining what happened below the aircraft.

Are CVFDR's of the same size as FDR/CVR's, if so, do aircraft carry 1 CVFDR or 2 for redundancy?

[zaplead]

Thanks for the info......Sim, reference the CVFDR's I believe that their dimensions are similar to a VDR & to the best of my knowledge only one is carried, although I understand that they only record the last 30 mins of conversation & I assume that this is the same for the aircraft flight system data (?).
I cited the Green Lily incident as an example purely because it was an example of where a CVFDR has been used in an incident involving a SAR helicopter & concur that in respect to any incident remote from the helicopter the only benefit it offers is the crew narrative.........Thanks ;)

[chuckolamofola]

Simfly asked:
"Are CVFDR's of the same size as FDR/CVR's, if so, do aircraft carry 1 CVFDR or 2 for redundancy?"

The answer to your question varies with installation and aircraft type. A CVFDR "Combined Voice/Data Recorder" both units fit into one 1/2 ATR chassis. Cockpit voice recorders can come in either a 1/2 ATR Chassis or a smaller package. We also offer 2 hrs of voice on seperate channels and up to 25 hours of flight data. The IDARS system combines CV/FDR and DFDAU all into one box, thus saving weight, space and LRU's and can be made into a full HUMS by adding the optional vibration card.

The DFDAU converts the analog signals; temps, torque, pressures etc. into digital signals for storage onto the FDR's crash survivable memory. In older installations (tape based) to have a CVR & FDR would require the aircraft to have up to three heavy LRU's (CVR, FDR & FDAU) weighing on average of 20+ pounds each! The IDARS combines all of those into one box at less than 17 pounds. A CVR only installation now weighs about 6 pounds for the LRU.

Check out the links below for more details regarding data recorders:

CVFDR (http://www.smiths-aerospace.com/images/products/PDFFiles/CVFDR.pdf) VADR (http://www.smiths-aerospace.com/images/products/PDFFiles/VADR.pdf) IDARS (http://www.smiths-aerospace.com/images/products/PDFFiles/IDARS.pdf)

Regards,

Chuck Kemp

[400 Hertz]

The standard unit fitted to SAR aircraft at Bristow is the P&G CVFDR with the following spec:

1 hour three channel recorded voice (PIL/COPIL/AREA MIC)
5 hours recorded data (128 words/sec ARINC 573)

Their system for acquiring data is the BAE Systems IHUMS.

Standard UK aircraft have a requirement for 8 hours previous data retention, but IHUMS aircraft have an exemption for this at the moment as extra data is recorded on a data card to supplement the 5 hour tape data in the CVFDR.

Mandatory params for heavy aircraft are 30, but the lighter aircraft only require 15 to be recorded.

In the future (2003/5 onwards) you will see the regulations being updated as new requirements come in, including the ability of the recorder to function for at least 10 mins after a crash, with the CB pulled. The new recorders will have battery packs either built-in or added as a back-pack type device.

[zaplead]

Thanks for your input folks, I am a little surprised to learn that at the present time voice and data recorders have only been recommended for light HEMS helicopters but not made mandatory given the type of flying they undertake, particuarly as it would appear they are now very compact and light.......digressing slightly, are ATC RT conversations recorded?:)

[PushTo Shock]

Most HEMS units use the ambulance Emergency Reserve Channel (ERC) for communicating with air op's controls. This is taped by all receiving amb controls and would be available to the investigation following any incident.

[zaplead]

Yes indeed,
I understand many HEMS controls do tape RT conversations in keeping with all land based ambulances control rooms, although perhaps ours is the exception in not doing so.
I was just wondering if the pilots dialog with ATC was taped also? :rolleyes: