RAF Sentinel fleet to be scrapped

[The RAF Taff]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/raf-scrap-sentinel-surveillance-aircraft-due-cuts/

[Saintsman]

Once again...

[ICM]

This link should help:

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/raf-scrap-sentinel-surveillance-aircraft-due-cuts/

[Heathrow Harry]

and so it starts.................

[Finningley Boy]

Among the comments, I noticed the one about reducing the Army to shore up the RAF and the Navy, reminds of the debate seven to eight years ago when it was the RAF in everyone's sights. Absolute nonsense!

FB:)

[SVK]

Sentinel Scheduled to Retire iaw SDSR 2015 Shocker!

[Melchett01]

None of us like to see another sqn go, but in terms of capability can any 'gap' not be covered by Scavenger and P8?

[ORAC]

That would seem to depend on the delivery rate, work-up to FOC and commitments of the P-8. With a predominant maritime role and RAF/RN crew composition as opposed to the tasking and crew composition of the Sentinel, it would seem debatable. Another "gap".

[Melchett01]

That would seem to depend on the delivery rate, work-up to FOCUS and commitments of the P-8. With a predominant maritime role and RAF/RN crew composition as opposed to the tasking and crew composition of the Sentinel, it would seem debatable. Another "gap".

I'm thinking more Scavenger/Protector and assuming it comes with a SAR/GMTI fit that might cover Sentinel. I know it's not a like for like replacement, largely because of the platform operating concept, but it could be a replacement if adequate numbers actually turn up. And aren't the USN developing a multi-platform concept of P8s working alongside RQ-4?

[Could be the last?]

Considering the financial climate the MOD is operating within, there must also be other platforms in the firing line? When you consider the rationalisation of the FJ and AT Forces, surely it is only a matter of time before someone casts an eye over the SH Force and looks to make some kind of saving.........?

[ORAC]

When you consider the rationalisation of the.... AT Force.... From C-130 down to C-130, C-17 and A-400M? :hmm:

[camelspyyder]

...and Voyager.

[Could be the last?]

I was considering the 10s and Tristars being replaced by Voyager, and what should have been the replacement of C130J by the 400. But then when you also consider the 146/QC, yes, you most definitely haven't been rationalised........😎

[Davef68]

Hmm, UKserials are reporting an additional 6 allocations reserved for P-8.......


UK Serials (http://www.ukserials.com/results.php?serial=ZP)

[Melchett01]

Hmm, UKserials are reporting an additional 6 allocations reserved for P-8.......


UK Serials (http://www.ukserials.com/results.php?serial=ZP)

Interesting. If the suggestion is more P8s, I'd have to say that's a good thing. If we can get a similar SAR/GMTI capability out of other platforms such as Protector and Crowsnest, and not to mention from working alongside JSTARS (despite the article in The Times completely missing these other systems - it's not just The Telegraph to employ YTS journalists!), I think beefing up our maritime patrol capability is a sensible way ahead as an island nation.

[Basil]

Fink about Sharon an' 'er seven kids - wot abat 'em, eh?

[Just This Once...]

The small number of guys and girls on the Sentinel fleet really have had a torrid time. A staccato introduction into service, suffering cuts in the development phase whilst simultaneously deployed on ops and never being allowed to bed down or achieve fully trained steady-state aircrew and groundcrew.

Since 2010 they entered the twilight zone by having almost all support removed, told they were surplus to requirement yet deployed to 2 then 3 operational theatres with no hope of roulemont. The capability moved from a core programme to a UOR; individual total time deployed went off the charts, PJHQ and theatre commanders wanted all aircraft everywhere, leapt on every stutter in output and deferred everything they could to maximise immediate output over medium-term output.

Recent years has seen a glimmer of light to finally fund and sustain the fleet, yet it is back to the chopping block. One hopes someone somewhere learns the lessons how not to treat the personnel (aircrew, groundcrew, contractor and PT staff) that really are the true capability.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Considering the financial climate the MOD is operating within, there must also be other platforms in the firing line? When you consider the rationalisation of the FJ and AT Forces, surely it is only a matter of time before someone casts an eye over the SH Force and looks to make some kind of saving.........?

How much more of a saving do you think can be made? We've already slashed the numbers of Puma during the upgrade to 24, scrapped the Sea King Mk4 without replacement (clearly they got Me3, but that is still a significant reduction in overall lift) and imho the new buy of Chinook is likely to be replacement of older airframes rather than a long-term increase in numbers.

If you want to continue to provide lift for Army on Ops as we do now and have done continuously for the past 15+ years, then you need aircraft. The grass is always greener, but we look at the rest of the RAF with envy; twice as many Typhoons as we have helicopters, comparatively new aircraft/capabilities like F35, P8, Reaper/Protector, Voyager, C17, A400, RJ etc... fancy swapping, you'll love tents on Salisbury Plain!

[Biggus]

Is that moving the Army of 82,000, 80,000, 65,000 or 55,000?

As for twice as many Typhoons as helicopters, if you compare historic FJ to helo ratios then you are currently doing very well!!

[Melchett01]

JTO,

Despite my thinking that right now we really really need MPA, I do concur that the way this capability has been handled from the outset is shabby, especially from the personnel angle. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the personnel turned round and said 'if that's how you feel, here are the keys we're off'. And the system would have no one to blame other than itself. But as we all know by now, the system either can't or won't grasp that capability and personnel need investing in.

[camelspyyder]

What personnel?

Currently there are 2 crews worth of seedcorn guys who may or may not come home. The first student crew don't start training until late next year. It's going to take a more than a while to work up the 24 crews required.


And to imagine that the Sentinel can be in any way replaced by the GMTI/SAR Lite sets that RPA or Helicopters can carry is pretty fanciful as well.

[MACH2NUMBER]

Why on earth did we not capitalise on improving our AEW&C Sentries? An opportunity completely lost.

[Tocsin]

A US site is suggesting that they (or NATO...) should pick up the slack - USAF Or NATO Should Snap Up The RAF's Retiring R1 Sentinel Radar Planes - The Drive (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/11614/usaf-or-nato-should-snap-up-the-rafs-retiring-r1-sentinel-radar-planes)

[Frostchamber]

Why on earth did we not capitalise on improving our AEW&C Sentries? An opportunity completely lost.


IIRC we opted out because it was judged to be too expensive. The idea that it's a good idea to buy into an existing US programme (eg P8) because you can piggyback along on the upgrade cycle works only if you don't do that.

[Rosevidney1]

It says the fleet will be scrapped, but presumably they will be sold on (in one form or another).

[Could be the last?]

AP

Cognisant of the numbers Biggus alludes to, the reality is how many SH assets are actually required to lift a 'Strike Bde' or whatever format the Field Army will eventually deploy? And is the ability to deliver that lift with multiple different types currently efficient, or sustainable?

With regards to swapping, enjoy your tents - luxury when you could be digging in!

Back on thread - this ac is not unique in the poor way it and its crew have been managed. As a UOR, sitting on the periphery of a core programme, but without any benefits, has done it and other ISR assets no favours. The bottom line, with the introduction of the P8, and a manpower cap etc etc it is about time we cut our cloth accordingly. I'm sure that those that operate the platform would be sad to see it go, but would enjoy a 'harmony' rate that provided some form of normality with their families!

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

And is the ability to deliver that lift with multiple different types currently efficient, or sustainable Not only is the current Chinook-Puma "multiple different types" mix efficient (Puma is a significantly cheaper way to move smaller numbers of people around in) it is critical; there will always be places where you just can't or won't want to get a helicopter the size of a Chinook into, particularly in urban environments where, funnily enough, we are likely to be spending a lot of time in in the future if you believe this (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/607612/20150731-FOE_35_Final_v29-VH.pdf).

On topic, it will be sad to see the demise of the Sentinel and its capability however, with SH (2 types), FJ (soon to be 2) and AT (2 eventually?) all rationalising platforms it must be difficult for the ISTAR world to win the argument that you need 5 (soon to be 6) different platforms to deliver the admittedly wide range of capabilities they offer...

[fallmonk]

A US site is suggesting that they (or NATO...) should pick up the slack - USAF Or NATO Should Snap Up The RAF's Retiring R1 Sentinel Radar Planes - The Drive (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/11614/usaf-or-nato-should-snap-up-the-rafs-retiring-r1-sentinel-radar-planes)
IF they do buy them, i hope we get a better deal than we done with the Harriers sold to the U.S Marines!

[H Peacock]

Selling the Sentinel package will be far from straightforward. I suspect the US DoD will have a direct say on who they let operate the radar system. I'm not sure they will care how much money is offered for it; they would much rather control who gets to see their technology.
A possible outcome will be selling the airframes without the mission radar or system LRUs. A potential purchaser could then procure/install their own package. Several Global Express airframes are now used in a variety of roles by various military outfits. I'm unsure of the waiting time for new airframes.
Apart from the structural modification to fit the underbelly 'canoe', the Sentinel airframes are all very high hours (were and probably are still Global Express fleet leaders) and with a very high ratio of landing cycles. Furthermore, they have been superseded by the Global 6000 with its somewhat better upgraded cockpit.
Notwithstanding the continued problems of mission system reliability, the Global Express airframe was and probably still is the best available for such an ISTAR platform.

[Rigga]

What personnel?

Currently there are 2 crews worth of seedcorn guys who may or may not come home. The first student crew don't start training until late next year. It's going to take a more than a while to work up the 24 crews required.


And to imagine that the Sentinel can be in any way replaced by the GMTI/SAR Lite sets that RPA or Helicopters can carry is pretty fanciful as well.

I see that as far as many on here are concerned Groundcrew still dont exist! However, many of the ground crew were given Part 66 AMLs to work on these aircraft , and now have a very desirable civil aircraft licence to walk out the door with...with or without sentinel on ops.

[Lyneham Lad]

(Post #27) spending a lot of time in in the future if you believe this.

Page iii, Conditions of release:-
This information is Crown copyright. The intellectual property rights for this publication belong exclusively to the MOD. Unless you get the sponsor’s authorisation, you should not reproduce, store in a retrieval system or transmit its information in any form outside the MOD. This information may be subject to privately owned rights.

:cool: :hmm: :ooh:

[Rigga]

I once sold three very heavily modified but equipment-stripped AS355s for what seemed a pittance as they had additional brackets, holes, miles of extra wiring (even on a 355) and horrid bumps all over them.
The buyer took them all and did some work on them. They sold them later for a 2000% profit and even the last operator got a great deal out of it.
Dont get caught up in selling the whole package, ITAR bits can be removed.
Sentinels may be worth a lot more as straight airframes if money is important. I remember that, when Laarbruch closed, a local farmer bought a strong cabinet for DM150 in a disposal auction. Inside the cabinet was £6M worth of Harrier test equipment that no-one wanted...

[bingofuel]

Inside the cabinet was £6M worth of Harrier test equipment that no-one wanted...

Unfortunately, it may have cost £6 million to purchase but if no one wants it, it is worth scrap metal value , if that!

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

(Post #27)

Page iii, Conditions of release:-


:cool: :hmm: :ooh:

It's on the open .gov website...

[Avtur]

Sorry to hear this 5 Sqn. From one of the ex-Waddo Triad. :ugh: