Recent MCC/JOC experience [Archive]

Danskora

14th Jun 2017, 20:16

Hi all

I've seen the older thread on MCC and JOC courses but theres no recent posts.

Can I have some feedback on the different courses people have attended? I'm a modular student and have seen various courses with prices range from £2500 to £9400. Does it really make that much difference where you go?

Who's recently got an airline Job, attended an interview or been turned down and with the benefit of hindsight would you go to the same provider?

dboy

17th Jun 2017, 17:17

If i were you, dont go for the cheapest. You better spend some money on this because i think it is a vital thing in your flying career. On top of this, this kind of stuff you will do when doing sim asessements when you are invited for a job interview. And go for a jet. So you can get used a bit to the speeds.

Good luck with your choice.

rudestuff

17th Jun 2017, 19:55

I went with Simtech. Good course and great instructors, well regarded. I went with then because of their close ties to Ryanair.

Danskora

17th Jun 2017, 20:13

And how did it go with Ryanair? If you don't mind me asking.

A good friend said a middle of the road one will be fine and CAE Oxford is middle of the road price wise and good on a CV

rudestuff

18th Jun 2017, 07:57

I applied in October, found a real job in February. Ryanair never got back to me. It seems they're not that desperate for pilots after all.

uncle dickie

19th Jun 2017, 05:19

You will think age is not a factor, but the reality is that the older you are the more likely you are to be a training risk.
Going jet for the first time aged 40 or so, is regarded by a number of employers as a risk to far.
The turbo prop route though is viable.

Simtech have a good name.

Virtual Aviation, Cambridge have an impressive set up as well with quality instruction as well.

MaverickPrime

19th Jun 2017, 09:56

I personally wouldn't pay a premium for a MCC/JOC unless it came with a "careers service" I.e. the CTC or Kura setup!

Airgus

19th Jun 2017, 10:00

Go for the cheapest option... even RYR is asking for just any MCC (not even JOC) and the concept is exactly the same.
Go to anyone that cost you 2k to max 3k.

parkfell

19th Jun 2017, 21:19

And what Airgus is forgetting to tell you is that, you need to reach an acceptable standard on the sim ride assessment.

So if you are a hot shot, then the bare minimum MCC5 will suffice.

If however you do not fall into this rare category, then the more practice you have flying a 737 variant the better chance you will have. Think about it.

JOC is not, as yet, a regulated course; Ryanair are simply saying it is entirely up to you how you prepare for the assessment.

Not all ATOs charge a premium for MCC/JOC. Do your homework carefully, and make an informed choice based on your circumstances.

Danskora

20th Jun 2017, 15:03

Ok,

My choices are - top two need accommodation on top as I live 80+ miles away.

CAE Oxford £5200
Virtual Aviation Cambridge £5500
CRM Aviation Europe White Waltham £3100
Simtech Dublin €5500

PiwiOPL

21st Jun 2017, 07:47

Not many people talk about CAE for MCC/JOC compared to Simtech. It's good?

FZRA

21st Jun 2017, 09:34

I went with CRM Europe and wouldn't hesitate to go with them again. I got my first airline job soon after.

They use a generic jet simulator set-up to replicate a Citatin bizjet which in my opinion is more than enough to get used to. Remember that the point of the MCC is to build your CRM, not learning how to fly a 737 or other complex jet!

It's all well and good paying £9K to do an MCC in a 737, and you might feel a tad more comfortable getting in to your Ryanair sim assessment if the cockpit looks familiar, but if your CRM skills are useless you'll still fail!

Personally I'd save the pennies, get quality CRM instruction, and then worry about your potential interviews afterwards. What if you never get invited to a Ryanair interview and (for example) Thomas Cook come along and stick you in an Airbus sim assessment but you did your MCC in a 737? It'll be totally different!

parkfell

21st Jun 2017, 12:34

Whilst FZRA is quite correct is saying that Boeing and Airbus are different, what you must appreciate is that what is common is the inertia/momentum compared to a light ac, not to mention experiencing the power/couple.

Again he is quite correct in saying MCC/CRM forms a critical part of any airline assessment, but to have experienced previous of that size of ac all goes to help in providing a competent performance when hand flying it.

I would imagine the quality of instruction at these well known ATO is never in any doubt. The more effort you put into the course, the more you get out of it.
You will need to work harder compared to the light ac flying phase.
Demonstrate your learning curve and ENJOY it !

jeremykeano

28th Jun 2017, 21:36

Hi guys, question from a standard 200hr merchant.

I want to complete an MCC as soon as possible. My question is, is the combined MCC/JOC worth the extra, or is the MCC sufficient for getting a job in the business.

I can get the £ for the combined course, but don't want to unneccassirly spend the extra £ if it's of no real benefit.

parkfell

29th Jun 2017, 16:05

JK

It really depends what job you are after.

If you have aspirations to apply for Airbus/Boeing jobs, then MCC/JOC would be the preferred option.
Experience of the power/pitch couple, and the novelty of INERTIA are critical items in that all important sim ride.

If however you have set your sights on a turboprop job, the MCC5 would probably do. Having said that, the more exposure to multi crew experience the better when it comes to your CRM being assessed as a critical part of the sim ride.

Choose a MCC course where the simulator used is appropriate to your plans

jeremykeano

29th Jun 2017, 21:43

Parkfell

Thanks for the reply and info. I suppose my ultimate goal would be to end up on an Airbus/Boeing...looks like its the MCC/JOC so!

ParisFlyer

6th Jul 2017, 20:20

I'll be finishing my JOC/MCC course at crmeurope tomorrow. I highly recommend them! Rob and his team are fantastic and I feel my money has been well spent and at a very fair price. The quality of instruction both during ground school and sim has been excellent and the ALSIM fnpt2 is the perfect training device for the course. Complex enough to simulate system failures you'd expect on your typical medium jet but with a simple SOP that doesn't take too long to learn. This allows you to concentrate and work on the CRM and failure management side of things which are the fundamentals of the course. All the instructors are highly experienced and really go out of their way to pass on their knowledge and share their own personal experiences. With regards to the JOC. It's a one day course at crmeurope and although the instructors do their best to do as much as possible in the sim during those 4 hours, to be honest, the MCC covers everything and more. My advice would be,only do the JOC if you want to apply to an airline that requires it. Otherwise the MCC will do the job just fine.

I can't praise everyone involved here enough and highly recommend them. You will not be disappointed.

JumboJet1999

2nd May 2018, 11:44

How about doing a cheap MCC course (cheap due to the use of a basic FNPT2) to focus on developing CRM skills and gain what is now a mandatory qualification for most flying jobs, then if you do get invited to say, a 737 simulator assessment, book a few hours in a 737 sim specifically to develop operational skills for the aircraft with the money you saved going for a cheaper MCC course? Doesn't that sound more sensible or am I missing something here?

uncle dickie

3rd May 2018, 17:29

I would personally invest more on a good MCC course like the ones at Virtual Aviation in the UK or Sky4U in Berlin in order to increase your chances of joining an airline.

Virtual have recently had their APS.MCC course approved. 10 sims including the LOE
The first UK ATO to receive CAA approval with the JOC element embedded into the course.
An enhanced course for those who aspire to Airbus/Boeing employment.

oldkarim

4th May 2018, 12:35

Yes people say they do a really good course at Virtual Aviation, Sky4U, Kura, Oxford, L3, Epst. I would avoid Simtech, old Sim (nowhere near a 737) and I heard their pass rate at airline assessments has dropped quite a lot.
How can you say that? Where have you heard that simtech pass rate at assessment has dropped?

oldkarim

4th May 2018, 16:12

Sound strange to me. I'm curious if this source is a wannabe or something more reliable like an airline assessor.
I know that Simtech is still one of the best Mcc provider in Europe. Do you think their quality is dropped because their students dont pass assessment?
The sim they have is quite good for an mcc, mcc is not a type rating.

oldkarim

5th May 2018, 19:13

I don't really know any wannabes.....I just think you should choose a place where they have a modern SIM which would drastically improve your chances to pass any airline assessments

You should know that a low hour pilot is not assessed on his flying skill on a 737, it does not make any sense, but how he works in a multi crew enviroment. A generic sim for a mcc training is more then enough. Then if you want to feel more relaxed at the assessment you can still book mcc refresh on a 737 or 320, but I think that the simtech sim is quite good for an mcc.

Danskora

7th May 2018, 11:56

I've had two SIM assessments with airlines one went well the other not so well. I'm lucky that I'm friends with a 737 TRE so could do SIM preparation for the second assessment. In both assessments they were mostly looking at rudder and stick skills i.e basic hand flying, pitch power couples (when accelerating / decelerating), raw data VOR tracking and ILS.
An awareness of threat and error management with CRM skills (NITS/DODAR) were needed but it was the flying skills they were mostly looking for. You can read up about NITS, DODAR, briefings and TEM fairly easily but flying an expensive SIM is not that easy.

I went to Virtual Aviation for a look around with my mate who was really impressed with them. He told me to go to VA but I was (wrongly) convinced it was the Multi Crew skills that were assessed in any future sim assessments more than the hand flying, so I went to a more reasonably priced one - saving £4000. I probably wouldn't have failed my first assessment if I had 40hrs on a 737 SIM and why I didn't take the advice of someone who runs airline SIM assessments I don't know.....
I understand you can now do a JOC/MCC on a A320 sim at VA - I personally would avoid this because if your Airline assessment is in a 737 you won't be prepared for the trimming etc.

I don't regret going to my MCC/JOC provider - the training itself was excellent but the basic SIM didn't really prepare me at all for an airline assessment, if I hadn't spent time in a fairly cheap 737 NG SIM with my mate I'd have failed both assessments. I used Airavana.co.uk at £55 per hour, its not a FFS but my mate said it was pretty realistic and good enough for what I needed.

Now theres the new APS MCC/JOC course I think its worth spending that bit more on a course to firstly get your foot in the door and then increase your chances of success at a future assessment. Whether that's with VA or another provider I can't say.

parkfell

7th May 2018, 14:21

You should know that a low hour pilot is not assessed on his flying skill on a 737, it does not make any sense, but how he works in a multi crew enviroment. A generic sim for a mcc training is more then enough. Then if you want to feel more relaxed at the assessment you can still book mcc refresh on a 737 or 320, but I think that the simtech sim is quite good for an mcc.

Whilst OLDKARIM is quite correct about the importance of CRM in the multi crew environment, your flying skills do most certainly form a critical part of any sim assessment.
In particular your ability to fly a RAW DATA ILS to DA (successfully) will undoubtedly be part of any assessment.
It is critical that you are proficient in this item, together with the ability to TRIM accurately.
Set the known thrust/power; set the known attitude; and then TRIM. Get it to stay on rails, and release the rest of your grey matter for other tasks ~ capacity to name but one.

uncle dickie

7th May 2018, 17:27

cavosky

2nd Jun 2018, 11:22

Hi, everyone! I need some info about Virtual Aviation. Could someone help me?

uncle dickie

2nd Jun 2018, 21:53

Try their website, or better still give them a ring?

P40Warhawk

3rd Jun 2018, 14:46

Hi, everyone! I need some info about Virtual Aviation. Could someone help me?

If you ask for info about something, please state then in clear points what you want to know to make your question more specific Cavosky.

For example:
1

2

3

4

Then you could expect better answers.

cavosky

4th Jun 2018, 08:32

Ok,
I want some more info about their APS MCC program, their final test and also the initial test. It would be nice also to know about their connections and help in finding a job after.

P40Warhawk

4th Jun 2018, 16:32

Ok,
I want some more info about their APS MCC program, their final test and also the initial test. It would be nice also to know about their connections and help in finding a job after.

Myself I did not go there, but now we know what you want to know ;) .

nnanR

14th Jun 2018, 04:50

Hi everyone!

Currently im under frozen ATPL training! Hopefully going to finish with the exams at the end of the summer.
After finishing it I would like to do the MCC/JOC part as soon as possible in Europe. If anyone could help me tips and advices pls. Reviewing the posts the pilots mostly said the Simtech(but the recent post did not say too much good), Cocki4u, VA.
I read about the Cardiff Aviation with the FFS 747, or BAA seems ok too. Cardiff has quick course and normal, which has time difference but for example the Wizz requests the full 16 hours course. Anyone about this? Is that really important to do these on a FFS or doing these on a FNPT is just fine? Could you tell me the big difference between these? I know the FFS moves like the real one and FNPT is fixed, im looking for answer which could describe me for example the handling difference, little things etc.
Like everyone else I have the same dilemma: doing it on an Airbus, or Boeing? Finishing the courses on the bus and later applying for a RYR sim check? How did you solve this problem? After the airbus paying for a fixed Boeing sim XXeuro/hour in a plaza?
Im not rich, but i would like to pay for the quality of the training. I can not afford the CAE which works double (or triple) than the other organisations. Are they really good for that money, are they really the best? Hmm..

Anyway, I am happy to read your answers, tips and advices.
Thank you, Good day!

RomanK

14th Jun 2018, 20:55

I did firstly MCC in BAA and then JOC in SKY4u. Vilnius is perfect city but I would prefer to do both MCC and JOC in Berlin

nebojsar

15th Jun 2018, 05:33

I agree, done JOC in Sky4U. If I had info about them before I would do there MCC as well.

nnanR

20th Jun 2018, 02:33

Thank you for your quick answers. I check the Sky4u but I found Sim4u and Cockpit4u as well based in Berlin. What are the differences between them? I found that the Sky4U uses the Sim4U simulators but i can not find how the Cockpit4u is related to the previous two. Cockpit4u has a training centre in Frankfurt that is a bit better for me than Berlin(distance).

nnanR

21st Jun 2018, 04:51

As far as I know Cockpit4u has nothing to do with Sky4u, they are 2 separate companies however, you are correct in saying that Sky4u uses the Sim4U simulators. I had very good feedback from people who went to Sky4u.

Thank you for your answer. Do you have any information about the Cockpit4U organisation?

parkfell

23rd Jun 2018, 06:45

Just be aware that EASA has a higher MCC qualification ~ APSMCC (GM3 FCL735.A) which formalises the jet training element of JOC. It may well be that a good provider will already cover all the elements, but their Regulator needs to approve their APS MCC course before a new style certificate is issued.
For the avoidance of doubt, the APSMCC course is not just an attendance course. There is a minimum standard required for APSMCC certification. For those who unfortunately do not meet the standard, they will be issued with a MCC (only) certificate. Hardly a ringing endorsement when the provider is APSMCC approved.
Those who achieve a marginal pass will still struggle on the sim ride. At present the APSMCC course is a PASS/FAIL situation, although grading occurs during all the exercises. Might be worthwhile keeping a copy?

Ryanair amongst others look more favourably on this new qualification when inviting you commence their selection process. Still the need to demonstrate to any employer that you know your stuff.

nnanR

24th Jun 2018, 05:23

Airgus

24th Jun 2018, 18:54

You can do/get invited for RYR interview without the MCC (as long as you get it before the TR) no JOC was requested/needed during the interview.
Do not spend more than 5k.

uncle dickie

24th Jun 2018, 18:57

I did not know that.. which organisation would you recommend? Unfortunetaly I can not afford CAE or the other expensive schools.:(

You need to read through the threads for this topic and you will find the answer you seek.
If you cannot afford a reputable provider, STOP now, as you will not afford the type course !

uncle dickie

24th Jun 2018, 20:30

You can do/get invited for RYR interview without the MCC (as long as you get it before the TR) no JOC was requested/needed during the interview.
Do not spend more than 5k.

Whilst AIRGUS is quite correct in what he says, the chances of being successful at Ryanair without first completing a MCC is probably less than 5%. The assessors have nothing worth assessing. The exception would be an ex military multi transport pilot.

Unless you have some multi crew experience (MCC) you are probably wasting your time & your hard earned money.
Ask those who have completed a MCC course before accepting AIRGUS advice.