A Jumbo pilot at 20 - Daily Mail July 12th

[luvly jubbly]

Seen today's Daily Mail?? Page 17 runs a half page story on Jonathan Clarke, a 20 year old lad with no A levels who has realised his dream and become an airline pilot.

He's £50,000 in debt and hopes to pilot a jumbo where he can "expect earnings in the £100,000 a year bracket".

Turns out he's just another fzn ATPL looking for work.
Good on him getting it so young but why take up so much news space Daily Mail? Gonna do a story on the other 1000s of us looking for work??

Join the queue Jonathan.

LJ

[distaff_beancounter]

Well you never know, some airline might appreciate his enterprise in getting a free advert, so will give him an interview. :)

[David Balchin]

Don't ya just hate smart Kidz! but the way things are going he'll
be 40 by the time he's a 74 Jockey on 100k:D :D

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

In BA it is currently unpopular to bid onto the 747 fleet due to seniority issues meaning poor route choice and long time to command. Therefore pilots with quite low seniority are being able to to successfully bid for a move from - say LGW 737 - to LHR 744.

Some are ex-cadets who only just scrape the 1500hrs ATPL with conversion and line training. One or two of them are in their early 20's.

Thats what I thought this story would be about!

Good on 'em I say, 30+ years in a 744 is a fine career. Wouldn't fancy all those Lagos's for a decade but then 20 years of JFK, LAX and RIO would be a hell of a pay off :)

WWW

[David Balchin]

Wee Weasley Welshman

Ya, But first he's got to get IN BA. and the only way he'll do that on a Frozen with 250hrs right now is if Scotty 'Beams' him aboard!
......."Beam Me Up Scotty!":D

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

David, of course.

We had one recent OATS graduate in the crew room at work on Thursday sniffing around for contacts/jump seat rides etc. I do feel sorry for guys like that - £60k down and working the checkin desk in the hope of getting a foot in the door.

Its tough.

WWW

[luvly jubbly]

Feeling sorry for me, and those in my position www??

You know yourself that work doesnt come to you. You gotta keep working towards that goal. Getting the fzn ATPL is the easy bit, and its just the start.

My advice to anyone coming out of the schools at the moment would be to now save up for your renewals.

Over 180 rejections in 14 months. Got over 1000hrs now cos I bothered to borrow even more for the FI(A). Best thing I did.

Financially crippled, but keeping chin up. Getting closer every day!!

Cheers,

LJ

[David Balchin]

Good For You Luv!:)

[Broken Wings]

£20K in debt on his credit cards OUCH! The interest on the interest is going to be hard to pay off. I hope he gets lucky because there's a lot of us in the que.

[VFE]

Had a similar feature on our local TV news programme earlier this week here in East Anglia. Same deal: young guy, did PPL, went to Cranwell to do CPL etc and is now working behind the desk at some airline waiting for his first job offer. Anyone else see the feature?

VFE.

[Little Miss]

Did the guy on the East Anglia news go to cranfield and not cranwell because if he did then there was an news article on him and a girl a few months ago before they took their IR. I did my training with them and they said their interview was seriously edited.

[Carruthers]

Kids DON'T DON'T DON'T get involved with the press / media. I have flown with a lot of cadets out of approved courses with very few hours and in the main they have been pretty good and the industry knows it, hang in there for the upturn.

[goeasy]

Anyone see the article in todays Daily Mail about the guy, spouting about how hes just qualified in his life long dream to be a pilot. And hes going to get a job flying a JUMBO soon, earning £100,000 a year to pay off his £50k debt. But !! hes going to have to wait till hes 21 for his command. Poor Dear!

Is he for real? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Edited for uneccesary insult

[VFE]

I'd imagine it was Cranfield. Get the two mixed up! Cranwell is the RAF college isn't it.

[Snigs]

I checked the date of the paper, it wasn't 1st April so I am bit aghast.

Still, fair play, he got a free advert even though the reporter seemed a little ill advised. :rolleyes:

[jonathang]

dont we all wish that :cool:

maybe in a dream

JohnnyG

[SmolaTheMedevacGuy]

Well, I started flying for an airline at 20. Maybe not in a Jumbo, but in an EMB145-still a passenger jet (ended at 21 in the aftermath of sep11 :(, but that's another story). Anyway, it it IS possible

Greetings
Smola

[GearUp CheerUp]

Yeah I read it. Not to detract from the guy but the headline did overdo it a bit (still what can you expect from the press?). Jumbo pilot at 20 turns out on closer reading to be a guy whos just passed his (I assume) frozen ATPL, photographed (superimposed)in front of a 757 not yet with a job and the only stumbling block according th the Head of Training at Bonus Aviation, Cranfield (who is probably just plugging his business but should know better), seems to be that he's 1 year too young for a command!

The interesting thing is, to me (as an expert in the field of aviation) this story is pure BS: when I read an article about something which I know very little (politics, nuclear power plant safety, congestion charges in London etc) is the story equally way off the mark?

[BlueEagle]

Was the reporters name Phil Space by any chance?;)

Probably the editors son getting some free publicity.

[Secret Squirrel]

Gear Up Cheer Up:

Often wondered the same thing meself. It's frightening really, isn't it?.

[brakedwell]

Gosh, do you have to be THAT old to be in command of a jumbo!

[Engineer]

Is the 21 age reference pertaining to the fact that JAR FCL 1 states that you have to be that age before applying for an ATPL (A). Then to command a 747 you must have an ATPL. If this is correct then the story has some substance.

[luvly jubbly]

True Eng, but its the fact that the Mail spent half a page covering this non-story!

Headline made out this whizz kid is piloting jumbos, but hes fresh out of a modular class and looking for work like the rest of us.

;)

[Mac the Knife]

GearUp CheerUp - "....when I read an article about something which I know very little (politics, nuclear power plant safety, congestion charges in London etc) is the story equally way off the mark?"

Yes, almost always.

[er82]

Why not be happy for the guy. So the press made something out of it. He got in the newspaper. Some airline may see the advert and give him a call. No need to slate the guy.
As everyone knows it's not easy to get a Fzn ATPL. Doing it at a young age could be a disadvantage and make it slightly harder, if he's had no experience of really working hard (i.e. at Uni). I should know. I finished my course 4 weeks ago... at the young and impressionable age of 19!!

[Stratocaster]

Anybody from the US Air Force here ? 'Guess not, but nice try anyway.
;)

I wish somebody could tell us more on how fast their pilots get their wings and jump into the left seat of wonderjets like the B-52, B-2, KC-10, KC-135, etc. (not to mention fighter planes). If you could read what I heard a few years ago, your eyes will pop out. I was really amazed, and their accident rate is not significantly higher than in the civil world. Yeah, sometimes they try a 2-ADF approach when theres' not even a single ADF on board, but who doesn't ?
:D ;)

It's all a question of training and exposure to difficult situations. How fast somebody will learn is another story of course. As long as the ego stays quiet things should remain pretty much safe.
:rolleyes:

[VFE]

Someone once cleverly suggested that you're better off reading between the lines when it comes to newspapers! ;)

VFE.

[expedite_climb]

er82,

Correct it is not easy at 19, I also know that. It just seems weird that this geezer is in the paper for it, I know at least half a dozen people that did it at 19....

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

There were 18 yr old fighter pilots flying Hurricanes in the Battle of Britain.

WWW

[Dan Winterland]

Young pilots with low hours are not just the preserve of the USAF. in the RAF where command comes with performance and not seniority, my aircraft type (4 engine jet) had 3 pilots get command at about the 1000hrs total mark. And very good they were too.

[Hap Hazard]

Yeah saw the story during our turnaround in Brussels, yes it was OTT as it makes a bit of a mockery of the rest of you guys/girls out there in the same position
My first impressions at quickly glancing at the article (quick turnaround!) was that it gave the impression that the industry owed him a job, and what makes him a Jumbo Pilot?
I know I am being harsh as it is bad reporting...as usual, but we have all been through or are going through the same crap to get that 1st job...still good luck to him, but unfortunatly I cant see the industry changing too much whilst there is always a good supply of people out there trying to make thier dream come true.
Theres no easy or fast way in this game!!
Hang in there everyone, it is worth the wait

[buduci kolega]

I know about a guy who is 22-23 and is an f/o for CX on a B744!
What about that?
:cool:

[Chaffers]

Is this such a terrible idea? As remember it (3am after 14 pints in an establishment specialising in fermented products) going bankrupt would be a viable opion for your young lad. Two years attempting to pay off his debts whilst living on not of course. Afterwards he'd still have his qualifications, the airline industry should have picked up and he wouldn't owe the silly ******s who lent him all that money a penny. Ok his credit rating would be pants but he'd have the potential to more than make up for it with his profession.

Come to think of it I wonder if I could persuade one of these 'we'll financially rape you with a smile' cheap advertisement slot type companies to lend me huge amounts of wonga.

Any lawyer types (boo hiss) who know the exact requirements/pitfalls to bankruptcy??

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You can't personally go bankrupt unless you are a company director so that idea is a non-starter.

There are currently by my estimation around 800 Frzn ATPL holders in the UK with <500hrs seeking employment. About 70 people a month join them.

WWW

[Gin Slinger]

Anyone can be declared bankrupt, either in a self-induced manner (debtor's petition); or by Creditors who are owed at least £750 by you (Creditors' petition), although the court would have to agree to it.

Having seen a good mate go through it, wouldn't recommend personal bankruptcy to anyone.

PS I'm NOT a lawyer-type, just been around a bit.

[Baldie Man]

I think you'll find that the vast majority of trainees who stump up the wonga for ATPL courses do so through re-mortgaging their homes. The rest who do not own a home have to provide security on any loan exceeding certain criteria. Been there & done it. Claim bankcruptcy later? More chance of me doing a number two in the Queens handbag! Get real.

"You just keep thinking Butch.......that's what you're best at"

Quote from 'Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid'

BM.

[Chaffers]

Worse than living with 60k of debt? At an interest rate of 9% that would make more than 5 grand a year in interest payments alone. Even if you started a well paid job immiediately (say 20k) you'd be taking home maybe 1150 a month and paying out 40% of that on interest, without touching the total amount owed by a penny. Thats without considering his credit cards, though someone mentioned 20k on those at god only knows what interest rate.

As I understood it (or not!) bankruptcy prevents you from becoming a company director without the courts approval, rather than only directors being able to become bankrupt.

[Amazon man]

I say good luck to the lad and well done to all of you who put yourself in debt.

I finished training many years ago about £1000 in debt and thought it was a fortune so I cant really imagine £50000.

However what really interests me in the article is the £100000 a year salary anyone know the airline I'd like to apply.

Its that sort of inaccurate reporting that annoys me, how can I now plead poverty down the pub with friends having read that article, thanks very much, guess I had better dust the old wallet down.

[Plane*jane]

When all you guys have finished carping on about Jon, you should be grateful that the real plight of those wanting to persue the dream of being a commercial pilot has been brought to public attention. I applaud the publicity he got because it is one of the very few professions where full funding by the individual is the norm. This government has not only withdrawn NVQ discounting which helped a lot, but the paltry £8000 loans available hardly cover the costs involved. Airlines sponsor very few cadets, and of course even less now which will create the same hiatus of captains in the future as the last freeze did in 1990. Talk about forward planning.......non existant as far as the Airline industry is concerned.
Jon worked long and hard and is not alone in what he achieved but at least the public at large are more aware of just how hard it is and expensive. The worst of it is remaining current when you can't afford it as so many of us found, only for Airlines to turn their nose up because you have flown little in the previous 6 months. The term Jumbo pilot is of course Press largesse to attract the attention of a wider audience.
We should be grateful for the article, and hope that it has pricked the consciences of Airlines and Governments, who as Heffers column in the Mail pointed out are toying with paying children to go to school when there are many many aspiring pilots out there like Jon willing to undergo considerable sacrifices to follow their dream, at their own expense.
Good luck to all the Jons out there and hang on, the market will recover very quickly, and you guys will find jobs. My opinion is that only good can come out of this. Awareness is everything, so make the most of it.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hmm, market forces I am afraid. There are hundreds of unemployed pilots out there. There has never been a shortage since 1944.

Hardly an easy pitch at the treasury sub-committee for training subsidies.

WWW

[Busterplane]

The truth of the matter is , as anyone whos been around for a few years will know, that of the 1000 or so(guess) <500hr frozen ATPLs out there looking for jobs a significant number will never make it.

Each year I see people of considerable quality drop out of flying purely on the grounds of economic nessesity. Now that it costs £60k or more to get a FATPL this number will increase. The predicted rise in interest rates next year will increase these numbers dramatically.

Yes some make it straight into an airline if that is what they want. Some, like me, spend a couple of years jobless(flying) then get a break flying C172s and end up in thier dream job (corperate) and the industry hushes up the rest. We dont like to talk about it because it makes us feel uncomfortable if talking to a guy who held a commercial ticket, maybe trained with us but didnt make it and now sells advertising space on the local rag but it happens.

Some of you will fail to make it. Its harsh but true. This is not (probably) down to your abilities but largely luck. If for whatever reason you cant afford to keep flying and pay off your debts your in for a rocky ride for the next year or two Im afraid. Even glider towing has a 2 year waiting list at our local club!

All this for a job that is far less glamourous and highly paid than the public ( and many students) percieve. £100k pa not any more!

[Baldie Man]

And with people willing to pay to have their application forms processed, paying for type rating when offered a job and even *some* willing to fly for free the pay packet for a pilot will get even less thus making the expense of training even more pointless and crazy.

[Little Miss]

Ok so the article was a little honey coated and I too would like to know what airline pays £100k, but at the end of the day we all trained and then have no jobs. A little bit of glory might not be a bad thing for this guy. I m in severe debt like alot of people and if this article helped some bigwigs realise how much we go through then great! I heard there s 800 of us low hour qualified pilots out there and slowly some are starting to get jobs. As for being young and flying jets I know several 18-24 yr olds who fly for very reputable companies. Easyjet, JMC and Cityexpress to name a few and quite a few weren t sponsored either. This is all pre sept 11th though. I wish my paper would do an article on me. Only joking! I get enough pity at work let alone the whole of the city staring at me. But if thats the route you want to take then good on you thats what i say.