Is the Big Bhudda a Big Magnet?!

[act700]

It seems the big smiling fella on top of the hill is attracting chinese airliners like honey is bees!!

Here's another one:

Air China flight has near miss with mountain on Hong Kong?s Lantau Island | South China Morning Post (http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/article/2096928/air-china-flight-has-near-miss-mountain-hong-kongs)

[LapSap]

More like Gear up, climb thrust, AP engage, first waypoint PORPA..........oops.

[Average Fool]

They are putting the customer first with the scenic tour!!

NTM saving some fuel

They are clearly winning

[balus man]

including the united 777 that turned right heading 130 climbing 5000 off 07L in recent weeks, this is the third incident with aircraft turning towards high terrain below 1000 feet. CAD currently have a requirement for helicopters to squawk standby within 5 miles of CLK which is counter to ICAO requirements. It is more of a problem than the buddha and CAD continues to refuse to address the matter.

[crwkunt roll]

They should climb to FL130 instead of turning to HDG 130. Or read the chart.

[azhkman]

They should climb to FL130 instead of turning to HDG 130. Or read the chart.

This was exactly my thought too!

[SeeMyToe]

including the united 777 that turned right heading 130 climbing 5000 off 07L in recent weeks, this is the third incident with aircraft turning towards high terrain below 1000 feet. CAD currently have a requirement for helicopters to squawk standby within 5 miles of CLK which is counter to ICAO requirements. It is more of a problem than the buddha and CAD continues to refuse to address the matter.

This is not the 3rd incident. Over the years, there have been many incidents like this. You just don't know about them.

With regard to helicopters turning off their transponders, It was pointed out strongly by the more experienced controllers to ATC Management at the time this was brought in, that it was not only illegal in accordance with ICAO and Hong Kong Regulations, but dangerous. The decision was made by CAD due to very strong pressure from Cathay Pilot Management after a number of Cathay pilots put in MORs because they got TCAS 'Traffic' alerts when rotating or just after rotate from inbound helicopters. This happens because of the predictive nature of the way TCAS works, which doesn't know the track a helicopter is going to take.

All departing traffic is given traffic information on these helicopters, so it should come as no surprise that there may be an occasional traffic alert. By getting CAD to get the helicopters to turn off their transponders, they have now deprived pilots of seeing said helicopters on their TCAS. All because they are annoyed by a TCAS 'Traffic' call. It also deprives controllers from seeing the helicopter on their radar, depending on the radar configuration.

[Sqwak7700]

Interesting SeeMyToe. Didn't know this was happening.

Any reports been filed outside CAD jurisdiction? Did the CAD make this a rule or are ATCos simply requesting this via voice? If they are, they would be liable in case of a collision.

I won't be calling helo traffic in sight anymore then. Could be taking possession of a ball I don't want to hold.

[SeeMyToe]

No reports filed as far as I know Sqwak 7700.

This was just a requirement that all controllers had to comply with. As 99% of helicopter operations at CLK are the GFS, it was simply arranged between CAD and the GFS that this was what was going to happen. Very poor 'Threat & Error Management'.

A controller, who had a friend who was a a senior lawyer, ran this CAD requirement past him and was advised that CAD and the controller would not have a leg to stand on if there was ever an accident.

As I said, CAD were pressured by Cathay Management and didn't have the guts to say NO to them.

No need to report sighting a helicopter unless you are basing your flight path on that of the helicopter, which should never happen. They are a VFR operation that base their flight path on what you are doing. Also, ATC are relying on a standard called 'Reduced Separation Minima in the Vicinity of an Airport' which requires the controller to see both aircraft involved.

[balus man]

you are correct SeeMyToe that there have been a number of these incidents over the years and the travelling public never gets to know about it. Many are not aware that CAD management has ruled this procedure to be the normal despite it being illegal under ICAO requirements.
There was an incident in non vfr conditions some years ago where a helicopter with transponder off was crossing the runway at the wrong end as a 747 rotated. A close near miss eventuated and still the procedure remained in place with no reports filed outside CAD. The time is long overdue for a completely independent Air Safety Department to investigate incidents and forward conclusions and recommendations directly to the Transport Minister and by pass CAD altogether.

if there is a collision one day and a helicopter with transponder turned off is a contributing factor, CAD management over the last 5 years will not be saved from jail time. The Hong Kong Government may also be liable for massive compensation payments when the insurance companies refuse claims due to an illegal helicopter transponder procedure.

[Trash8mofo]

The Hong Kong Government may also be liable for massive compensation payments when the insurance companies refuse claims due to an illegal helicopter transponder procedure.

Lol. Hong Kong Airport blatantly disregard safety and rules that affect pax everyday. Case in point being those airport buses for away gates. They are clearly stated max capacity being 70ish people, but regularly stuffed to double that amount. These are old ppl and children with bags. Has the HK govt been liable for any resulting injuries or being fined for willingly disregard a stated limitation?

[hoopdreams]

When they commenced the turn, deviating from SID, were they not above 3000'? Apparently 3060'? In that case they were already above their MSA for that sector from TD VOR. Media stating, "ATC controller averted collision with mountain", or "had they have been heavier they wouldn't have cleared the terrain".

[404 Titan]

hoop dreams

Nope. Sector MSA for VHHH airport is 4300ft. MSA isn't referenced to VHHH. It is referenced to TD VOR which is considerably east of VHHH. I assume this aircraft was conducting the BEKOL 2B departure. Have a look it. Now it could be argued that where the turn started is outside the 25nm MSA so 4300ft doesn't apply. The chart though stipulates a warning of "must not turn before PRAWN" due terrain. PRAWN is 29nm from TD. Also if you look at the Radar Chart the turn was commence in the 4100 minimum radar vector sector. Lastly if you look at all the approach charts the MSA is referenced to CH VOR which is considerably closer to VHHH than TD and the relevant MSA is 4300ft.

[hoopdreams]

hoop dreams

Nope. Sector MSA for VHHH airport is 4300ft. MSA isn't referenced to VHHH. It is referenced to TD VOR which is considerably east of VHHH. I assume this aircraft was conducting the BEKOL 2B departure. Have a look it. Now it could be argued that where the turn started is outside the 25nm MSA so 4300ft doesn't apply. The chart though stipulates a warning of "must not turn before PRAWN" due terrain. PRAWN is 29nm from TD. Also if you look at the Radar Chart the turn was commence in the 4100 minimum radar vector sector. Lastly if you look at all the approach charts the MSA is referenced to CH VOR which is considerably closer to VHHH than TD and the relevant MSA is 4300ft.

Yeah you're right, they were in 4300 sector of TD MSA.

[geh065]

Easy fix. just don't clear anyone to a Flight Level straight after take off. Clear them to a "thousand" altitude.

[Dragon69]

Easy fix. just don't clear anyone to a Flight Level straight after take off. Clear them to a "thousand" altitude.

They never clear you to FL130 after take off do they? I thought FL130 was for descending traffic on the STAR. They might clear to 9000' or FL110, but I've never been cleared straight to FL130 after Take Off.

[AQIS Boigu]

You get "FL250" from departures in the middle of the night.

[Toruk Macto]

One pilot makes a mistake and we all have to level off at 5000 or 9000 for next 30 years when higher is available, incase we head 130 ?

[GICASI2]

Or use the UK terminology of 130 DEGREES.

In my experience, the 5000' stop altitude is very rarely cancelled until on track to TD. The MAX ALT is then usually limited (during the day) to 9000' until the inbound tracks are cleared. HKG controllers are good at standard phraseology and will emphasise when cleared to a FL; shame some of our brethren are not.

[Near Miss]

"Climb Flight Level 130." vs "Turn Left Heading 130."

I can see how they could easily be confused. :rolleyes:

[Trafalgar]

...anything is now possible (and probable) in the new world of 'snowflake' aviation (also known as 'brushwinger' flight kindergarten). :rolleyes:

[Oasis]

Get off your high horse, Trafalgar, or you might find yourself in trouble one day due to your delusions of grandeur.

[Trafalgar]

It's always nice to be recognised :p

[Weary traveller]

Delusions of grandeur? Are you kidding? Traf has a very valid point. It helps explain why a KA flight from two hours away diverts after a couple of holding patterns because either: A, the snowflake in the cockpit didn't have the foresight or balls to put on the appropriate amount of fuel or B, the snowflake in OPS didn't put the appropriate amount of fuel on the flight plan so that snowflake A didn't have to divert with FPF. Heaven help us all.

[geh065]

One pilot makes a mistake and we all have to level off at 5000 or 9000 for next 30 years when higher is available, incase we head 130 ?

Half of the tedious stuff we do in the sim is because one pilot made a mistake and crashed their plane. The whole cockpit door procedure resulted from incidents that happened on a single day. Its the way aviation works. Someone makes a mistake and we all live with the procedural changes.

[betpump5]

A La Air France. Which is now why we have to narrate a passage as long as War and Peace before we actually start doing anything about an unusual attitude/stall.

We all know how this will play out one day when a guy with very little SA or who is more focused on 'mouth music' mucks up a stall recovery.

[LongTimeInCX]

Stuff crapping on with some verbose diatribe, how about we just fly the damn jet out of the stall like we were, or should have been, taught in our past lives.
It's not that hard!!

[crwkunt roll]

It's not that hard!!
Seems to be the mantra of some of the entitled ones.
Remember, we are also now not permitted to change to QNH when descending until we reach TL, as one person made a mistake and levelled off.
Yes, that is how dumbed down we are now.

[oriental flyer]

If they taught these delicate flowers of the Y-me generation the correct procedure to effect a correct recovery from a stall during basic training they could then apply the same principals to a big shiny jet . i.e. level the wings ,lower the nose and add thrust to recover flying speed ,they might even have to do all three things at once it's really not that hard . If you have to recite war and peace before taking action confusion will reign
Added to which you may not have that much time ,AF was dropping at over 10,000 ft / min

[IcanCmyhousefromhere]

Might help them if you could at least write the actions in the correct order here!

[Sand Man]

Remember, we are also now not permitted to change to QNH when descending until we reach TL
Where is this stated?

[iceman50]

Sand Man

crwkunt roll got it wrong, perhaps he is dumbed down, no change in the OPS A.

[skkm]

Sand Man

crwkunt roll got it wrong, perhaps he is dumbed down, no change in the OPS A.

B team isn't allowed to any more per new FCOM3 NP.120.2.

[iceman50]

Interesting, so what takes priority the FCOM or OPS A, another job for the lawyers.

[crwkunt roll]

No way! Different fleets doing the same things differently? "Team A" will no doubt have another procedure change shortly.

[PEI_3721]

Is the Buddha in the EGPWS obstacle data base as a separate object, or only shown as high terrain in the overall terrain database?
I don't have access to either at the moment.

Which airlines have / have not activated the obstacle mode / updated the databases.