Sea Vixen

[coley chaos]

Dear all,

The Royal Navy Historic Flight Sea Vixen has made a wheels up landing back at Yeovilton after its display at Duxford....loss of hydraulics meant flapless landing after circuits talking with engineers, but the pilot walked away with no fire or impacts other than skidding along Yeoviltons finest concrete. Pictures coming in but are not mine so not sure if I can share. Poo

[Nige321]

Picture credit - Scott Dabinett

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18700545_10154322195900876_257945656923704239_o.jpg?oh=678ba 3d7cdf16284534491488d8ba5c5&oe=59A05B79

[VX275]

It declared an gear related emergency state 2 at Boscombe last week. That photo looks like what I was relived not see from the office window.

[H Peacock]

I think she's a bit too complex an aircraft for the Navy to maintain! :D

[Alber Ratman]

It seems to be far too complex for the civilian team that maintains it are capable of doing so. It is a civilian Permit to Fly aircraft and in no way connected to the military bar the facilities Yeovilton offers and the pilot whom I believe is still serving. Oh, the canopy carts were fitted by a mate still serving in the RAF as a favour. They worked.

[Fonsini]

Painful to see. Couple of questions came to mind:

1. Was there anyone in the coal hole.

2. Are the bang seats armed.

3. Is it SOP to jettison the canopy in such a situation

And obviously very happy everyone was ok.

[SpazSinbad]

Sea Vixen Does Wheels-Up Emergency Landing at Yeovilton 27 May 2017
"...As soon as she touched the runway the canopy was released and engines were shut down. She slid up the runway very smoothly and under control...." https://theaviationist.com/2017/05/27/sea-vixen-does-wheels-up-emergency-landing-at-duxford/

https://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Sea-Vixen-incident-2.jpg Photo by Mr. Scott Dabinett

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/SeaVixenJettisonCanopyTouchdownYeoviltionMay2017.jpg~origina l (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/SeaVixenJettisonCanopyTouchdownYeoviltionMay2017.jpg.html)

Recent Vampire ripping up runway thread had discussion about switches in odd places - Sea Vixen has similar issues with gear handle position but doing 'after landing checks' whilst still on runway? 5 April 2012
"Synopsis "...During the latter stages of the landing roll, whilst completing the after landing checklist, the pilot inadvertently selected the landing gear to up which resulted in the retraction of the nose and left main landing gear....

Analysis The pilot’s recent flying experience had been on the Hawk and Hunter aircraft, where the flap selector was located in a similar position to the landing gear selector of the Sea Vixen. It is therefore considered probable that, when the pilot actioned the ‘After Landing’ checklist, his recent experience resulted in him inadvertently selecting the landing gear switch to up instead of operating the flap selector...." https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422f546e5274a1317000587/DH110_Sea_Vixen_Faw_Mk2_G-CVIX_10-12.pdf (0.4Mb)

[SpazSinbad]

Read all about THEM: Postwar 5 de Havilland Vampire, Venom and Sea Vixen

https://www.scribd.com/doc/52083880/Postwar-5-de-Havilland-Vampire-Venom-and-Sea-Vixen (PDF 93 MegaGiggles)

[SpazSinbad]

I do not know anything other than the words in this Sea Vixen FAW Mk2 pilot notes page here:
"...7 Crash and hazardous landings
(a) When crash landing, if possible, jettison stores. The undercarriage should be lowered regardless of terrain. Immediately prior to touchdown close both HP cocks, operate all three extinguishers and switch battery master OFF. Brace before impact.

(b) In the event of a hazardous landing where undercarriage units are partially or fully retracted, full or partially full drop tanks must be jettisoned. Empty tanks should be retained. The pilot's canopy should not be jettisoned...." https://www.seavixen.org/images/documents/Pt4._2._Emergency_Handling._Abandoning_and_Emergency_Landing _Procedures.pdf (3.5Mb)

[safetypee]

The Sea Vixen has a RAT, which AFAIR was primarily for hydraulic services, particularly the flight controls. Daily check before / after flight with automatic deployment as normal hydraulic pressure decayed.
The undercarriage had an emergency lowering selection on the normal gear handle, being either a segregated hydraulic supply or a dedicated reserve.
Thus a gear up landing would be the result of very unusual circumstances. The gear could have suffered a mechanical jam, but all three at once - selection system.
The hydraulic flight controls appeared to be working; thus some power may have been available - not a complete loss of fluid? Flaps up perhaps a recommendation for a gear up landing; wing tank retention appears to have been a good decision.Tail bumpers are sturdy metal blocks which could be used during aerodynamic braking, but in this instance they may have minimise rear fuselage damage.
Canopy jettison might have been a well considered alternative because the operating system is electric, and presumably the plan was to select all power off after touchdown. The canopy elect and a manual backup / emergency unlock IMHO were not very reliable.

All of the above subject to failing memory of a low hours, love / hate relationship with the aircraft - involving many elect / fuel pump failures, undercarriage, canopy, and hook problems; fortunately only operated the aircraft feet dry.

[ShotOne]

"Far too complex for the civilian team...." I wondered how long that bandwagon would take to start rolling. Before it does it's worth pointing out that an awful lot of Sea Vixens (and other fighters of that generation) were lost in accidents while in service

[Lima Juliet]

A big BRAVO ZULU to Si Hargreaves for sticking with the jet and for such a smooth landing thus minimising the damage. :ok::ok:

[Rhino power]

Short vid clip of approach, touch down and canopy jettison...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5qEhY3XD6Q

-RP

[Wander00]

LJ - I'll second that

[Compass Call]

safetypee
The Sea Vixen D3 has electrically selected-hydraulically operated undercarriage and flaps. The underwing tanks cannot be jettisoned as this is disabled.

[falcon900]

Probably just my imagination, but did it seem that he had the gear down for longer than one would normally expect during the Duxford display preceding this landing? It is on youtube beside the clip linked above.

[keith williams]

The last time I saw a Sea Vixen land with the gear up it never flew again, but was used as a ground training aid at HMS Daedalus.

I hope this one will fare better, but I doubt if the money will be available to repair it.

[LOMCEVAK]

Fonsini,

This was a display sortie whereby minimum crew only is permitted. The Vixen can be flown solo and, therefore, there was no-one in the 'coal hole'. The seats were live.

[ian16th]

"Far too complex for the civilian team...." I wondered how long that bandwagon would take to start rolling. Before it does it's worth pointing out that an awful lot of Sea Vixens (and other fighters of that generation) were lost in accidents while in service

More likely, too expensive for a group of well meaning, however trained and experienced, volunteers.

[DuckDodgers]

Let us make one thing clear, this aircraft DOES NOT belong to the RN Historic Flight. It belongs to the Fly Navy Heritage Trust, a registered charity recognised by the Naval Service and one that operates without paying for its facilities, aviation fuel or other services.

Rumour has it that its participation at Duxford was not endorsed by Finance Director Navy nor was an MoU in place and signed.

[Lima Juliet]

I think leaving the canopy jettison until inside the airfield boundary is a good idea - at least the area should be devoid of people and houses! :ok:

[Compass Call]

In the clip posted by 'rhino power', at the 29 second mark the RAT is visible and at the 33 second mark the canopy rails can be seen separating from the canopy. The canopy jettison system certainly did what it said on the tin:)

[Feathers McGraw]

Am I right in thinking that the hydraulic system had a major re-build over the winter?

I don't recall why this was done, was it as a response to reliability concerns?

[chevvron]

Short vid clip of approach, touch down and canopy jettison...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5qEhY3XD6Q

-RP
Looks like he waited for the 'scraping' noise before blowing the canopy.
Superb landing apart from the lack of wheels though.

[SpazSinbad]

3 page PDF from Fly Navy Heritage Trust FNHT about the Sea Vixen FAW Mk2 attached:

http://www.fleetairarmoa.org/content/sites/faaoa/uploads/NewsDocuments/2229/58309_FNHT_new_Layout_1.PDF

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/Sea%20Vixen%20FAW%20Mk2%20FNHT%20RNFAA%20FORUM.jpg~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/Sea%20Vixen%20FAW%20Mk2%20FNHT%20RNFAA%20FORUM.jpg.html)

[Compass Call]

It should be remembered that G-CVIX (XP924) is not a FAW2, it is a D3. There are differences. The FNHT seem to like calling her a FAW2 because outwardly she looks like one:)

[cyflyer]

What a pity. She was the main attraction at next week's fly navy day at shuttleworth. I wonder if they going to replace her with something else ?

[Hangarshuffle]

Does the UK taxpayer pick up the tab for the costs for the removal of the aircraft and any repairs to 27 and returning the airfield to an operational standard?
That aircraft must have nearly used the entire 7000 foot plus, surprised it didn't reach the 09 end barrier.
Just another weekend with vintage aircraft that just don't cut it anymore, isn't it? Superb bit of recovery by the pilot. But will lessons be learnt?

[Mortmeister]

With complex aircraft, this happens sometimes.

When all is said and done, this looks to have been very well handled by the pilot and brought to a safe conclusion, BZ Sir!

Shame about the Sea Vixen, she is a beautiful aircraft. I do hope she will live to fly again. I remember doing my trade training on Escape Systems on Sea Vixens at Cosford in '83. Oh the intricacies of the underwater ejection system!

Mortmeister

[Compass Call]

Hangarshuffle
I would imagine that the insurance company will pick up the tab for any damage caused. As well as the repair bill for the aircraft.
After all, is that not why the CAA require the aircraft to be insured:ok:

[Basil]

SpazSinbad, thank you for that interesting Emergency Handling .pdf but despite anything the test pilots have advised, what you actually do on the day is up to the pilot. TF it all ended well.

[Nige321]

Does the UK taxpayer pick up the tab for the costs for the removal of the aircraft and any repairs to 27 and returning the airfield to an operational standard?
That aircraft must have nearly used the entire 7000 foot plus, surprised it didn't reach the 09 end barrier.
Just another weekend with vintage aircraft that just don't cut it anymore, isn't it? Superb bit of recovery by the pilot. But will lessons be learnt?

Does it really matter if the 'UK taxpayer' picks up the tab for shifting the Sea Vixen?
Sometimes Hangershuffle you need to look a little further than the end of your nose.
What a misery you are...:yuk:

[SpazSinbad]

SpazSinbad, thank you for that interesting Emergency Handling .pdf but despite anything the test pilots have advised, what you actually do on the day is up to the pilot. TF it all ended well.
'Basil' I'm agreeing with the 'what you actually do on the day is up to the pilot' however Pilot Notes may be 'out of date' according to later pilots and SOPs perhaps. These details I do not know while I thought it was clear I was just parroting a Pilot Note. However pilots making up stuff as they go along can be hazardous if Pilot Notes are disregarded. Starting out at NAS Nowra in the A4G Skyhawk era when fixed wing aircraft were changing from the British Pilot Note tymes (if they were by then available) to the comprehensive USN NATOPS safety culture - I would pick the NATOPS (even though it might have been noted as the BIG BLUE SLEEPING PILL). NATOPS are said to be 'written in blood' from not only test pilot experience but also pilot usage in extreme circumstances over time. This meant that EMERGENCY PROCEDURES would change sometimes.

For example in the early 1970s it was NATOPS procedure to carry out a 'short field arrest on empty underwing tanks' with certain U/C problems. By the late 1970s this NATOPS action had been changed to 'land on empty tanks on foamed runway - NO ARREST'. Not being in the RAN FAA by the late 1970s I can only guess that as noted in earlier NATOPS there was danger in landing short of the short field gear, to have the wire go over the nose of the aircraft, causing pilot death. My point is that Emergency Procedures change while the pilot quite rightly has the freedom to change actions - he may do so at peril perhaps. And I agree all is well that ends well in this case at Yeovilton.

Here is an example of 'all is well that ends well' KIWI TA-4K KAHU arresting - not quite per SOP - with U/C damaged and UP. The aircraft lands well short of the short field gear so it slides into the wire which thankfully catches the drop tanks and goes no further over them or the aircraft: [the 'fire' at end is from fuel vapour in the D/Ts]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFJfVKnGIo8

[Art Smass]

It should be remembered that G-CVIX (XP924) is not a FAW2, it is a D3. There are differences. The FNHT seem to like calling her a FAW2 because outwardly she looks like one:)

and she was built as one.... the D3 conversion came later

[Fonsini]

Fonsini,

This was a display sortie whereby minimum crew only is permitted. The Vixen can be flown solo and, therefore, there was no-one in the 'coal hole'. The seats were live.

Thanks LOM.

[chevvron]

and she was built as one.... the D3 conversion came later
I can remember several Sea Vixens being converted at Farnborough in the late '70s (under contract to Flight Refuelling) for target drone work at Llanbedr, was that the D3? I thought drones had a 'U' prefix.
Tarrant Rushton was still open then and the Flight Refuelling test pilot used to fly into Farnborough to test fly them.
On one occasion, a Vixen was pulled out of the hangar, the test pilot arrived and got togged up; next thing we knew the Vixen was being put back into the hangar along with the TPs Aztec.
Apparently he had been a bit enthusiastic leaping into the Vixen and had struck his head on the forward part of the canopy nearly knocking himself out!
Was this a common occurence with the type I wonder?

[MAINJAFAD]

I can remember several Sea Vixens being converted at Farnborough in the late '70s (under contract to Flight Refuelling) for target drone work at Llanbedr, was that the D3? I thought drones had a 'U' prefix.
Tarrant Rushton was still open then and the Flight Refuelling test pilot used to fly into Farnborough to test fly them.
On one occasion, a Vixen was pulled out of the hangar, the test pilot arrived and got togged up; next thing we knew the Vixen was being put back into the hangar along with the TPs Aztec.
Apparently he had been a bit enthusiastic leaping into the Vixen and had struck his head on the forward part of the canopy nearly knocking himself out!
Was this a common occurence with the type I wonder?


Drone designation in the UK was changed from U to D sometime during the 1970s.

[sandiego89]

Does it really matter if the 'UK taxpayer' picks up the tab for shifting the Sea Vixen?
Sometimes Hangershuffle you need to look a little further than the end of your nose.
What a misery you are...:yuk:


Agree Nige, these folks that always scream about the "taxpayer" seem to miss some of the finer points. I am sure the fire trucks, cranes and crews are all paid for, and having them serve on one weekend for a major airshow is part of the deal. Insurance should pick up any runway damage. Maybe there is a bit of overtime, but having the emergency crews and the duty crew do an actual emergency response, de-fuel, lift and recovery is better training than squirting water on the same old fire trainer day after day....


Guess some folks would rather have all airshows, open houses, open ships, flyovers, etc. cancelled- and further erode the public connection with the military...

[DANbudgieman]

Does the UK taxpayer pick up the tab for the costs for the removal of the aircraft and any repairs to 27 and returning the airfield to an operational standard?

Why worry? It was an ever increasingly rare live training opportunity to practice removal of a fair sized aircraft from an obstructive position. Damage to the runway, while unfortunate can at worst be looked at as fair wear and tear.

[H Peacock]

Notwithstanding my facetious post early about being operated by the Navy, I'd forgotten that the Vixen is operated by a charitable trust and operated with a civilian registration. Therefore I assume the AAIB will be involved in the incident investigation.

[Bonkey]

I worked on flight test analysis the Sea Vixen D3 program at FR Aviation in the late 70s and early 80's at Tarrant Rushton, then Hurn. XP924 of the recent wheels-up landing was the back-up trials aircraft (XN657 being the lead D3 conversion). The drone conversion involved a Universal Drone Pack "UDP" being produced by FR and this slid down onto the ejector seat rails of the Observer position and contained the telemetry system and flight computer. The goal of the "Universal" Drone Pack was something that could largely be re-used for future drone conversions - I recall the MoD also had their eye on the Lightning and then Phantom in the future. Electronic servo valves were added to the flight control actuators around the aircraft - so a form of analogue FBW was added to the Sea Vixen.

During the trials at Hurn and Llanbedr a safety pilot was always on board. All of the flight commands that could be sent from the ground were duplicated on a series of push-buttons in front of the pilot so he could effectively "fly" the aircraft by push buttons to mimic what a ground controller would do. pitch up, pitch down, bank left, bank right etc could all occur by pushing a button dedicated to that command with the flight computer turning the button pushes into proportional analogue commands to the servo valves on the control surfaces and throttles.

During the trials on quite a few occasions the pilot flew the aircraft from lining up for take-off to landing entirely by pushing buttons, then we did it from the ground too. At any time the pilot could grab full manual flying control back by squeezing a button on the stick.

So with XP924 am intrigued as to whether this reverted back to proper FAW2 status with the D3 conversion wiring, electronic servo valves, push-button console etc fully removed? Or some form of hybrid with the D3 servo valves and push-button flying controls still there but now disabled?

[Compass Call]

Any photos or videos of her recovery from the runway to the hangar out there?

[Hangarshuffle]

Duxford was its first soiree out this year, according to the blurb on the website.
Y,know, there is a time to let precious things go.
FAA fixed wing squadrons used to employ an awful lot of very dedicated hard working people who worked er very hard to keep them in the air. Believe me I know all about it.
That little unit over south side have given it a good shot but its time to let it go and give it up.
Someone will get killed.

[SpazSinbad]

About following pilot notes/NATOPS... recently the 'Pilot Notes for the A-4K KAHU Skyhawk of the RNZAF' were sent to me. I can only guess they date from c.1991 while the parts below look to be from a late 1970 or beyond A-4F NATOPS we can see some complexity. I do not know the landing environment weather at the time of the TA-4K video overleaf, however I do know IIRC that in a discussion with the pilot on a forum years ago now and his story as told in a history book about the A-4K KAHU after discussion with bigwigs in the tower the course of action was taken (after a practice waveoff before final approach) as seen.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/KIWI%20KAHU%20UC%20GearTEXTtableFORUMa.gif~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/KIWI%20KAHU%20UC%20GearTEXTtableFORUMa.gif.html)
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/KIWI%20KAHU%20UC%20GearTEXTtableFORUMb.gif~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/KIWI%20KAHU%20UC%20GearTEXTtableFORUMb.gif.html)

[SpazSinbad]

Just to show how NATOPS for USN A-4E/F & RAN FAA A4G had changed from 1970 version:

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/A4GoldWheelsUpArrestAdviceNATOPSforumA.gif~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/A4GoldWheelsUpArrestAdviceNATOPSforumA.gif.html)
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/A4GoldWheelsUpArrestAdviceNATOPSforumB.gif~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/A4GoldWheelsUpArrestAdviceNATOPSforumB.gif.html)

[SpazSinbad]

View of the runout on the empty drop tanks & LAST Display 2nd Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x64-Bea7xXc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8473Oa0HE7M

[Failed_Scopie]

Duxford was its first soiree out this year, according to the blurb on the website.
Y,know, there is a time to let precious things go.
FAA fixed wing squadrons used to employ an awful lot of very dedicated hard working people who worked er very hard to keep them in the air. Believe me I know all about it.
That little unit over south side have given it a good shot but its time to let it go and give it up.
Someone will get killed.

I rarely post on here but sadly I agree with you on this one; despite having had the pleasure of watching the Sea Vixen fly at Yeovilton in 2015, it is a museum piece and it deserves to spend its retirement in the FAA Museum.

[Blacksheep]

"Far too complex for the civilian team...." I wondered how long that bandwagon would take to start rolling. Wasn't it designed by a bunch of civilians using slide rules, pencils and paper - and built by civilians using basic hand tools and windy drills?

[Bonkey]

Wasn't it designed by a bunch of civilians using slide rules, pencils and paper - and built by civilians using basic hand tools and windy drills?

It was built like a proverbial brick s**t house and a pig to work on. At FR Aviation I started in Electrical and to remove and service most items was a total pain. I particularly remember there was a generator (or inverter / alternator) in one or both of the booms and they were dreadful to remove.

[just another jocky]

Wasn't it designed by a bunch of civilians using slide rules, pencils and paper - and built by civilians using basic hand tools and windy drills?


True, but the expectations of aviation and engineering safety are far, far higher than they were back then so not really a reasonable example.

[Nige321]

Frpm the Navy Wings website...

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18740594_1923296854605966_2039022960130086915_n.jpg?oh=f18df 7decaa71d4b4c2d74578659d774&oe=59A18DF0


https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18881796_1923296851272633_1386088253701437723_n.jpg?oh=b8016 176a5545bb4e8e11f38bb37e5b9&oe=59AC44BB

[Wander00]

The undercarriage does go "down" then. Good luck with the repairs, wold love to see it fly again, but not a risk to pilot safety

[Bing]

Someone will get killed.

Probably best you don't go near a road then, those things are lethal.

[N.HEALD]

Damage looks remarkably light considering. Hopefully she can be repaired and back in the sky soon, no doubt to the chagrin of some that seem to think everything's a death trap accident waiting to happen. Aircraft are complex but as the pilot demonstrated things can be dealt with in a cold calm and collective way. This incident posed no danger to anyone other than the pilot, the aircraft didn't drop out of the sky and the pilot didn't have to manoeuvre to avoid the obligatory school or old peoples home. Yes he had an issue, he followed the drills and got an great outcome, no injuries and the aircraft can probably be used again.


Personally I think it's great that people are able to see the wonderful range of aircraft from years gone by flying still, yes health and safety is important but as this event proved when something does break it can be dealt with professionally and safely.

[sharmine]

Sadly, as is usual with these threads, a lot of ill informed people think they can comment on events. The Sea Vixen team are made up of 60% sea vixen experienced crew. Things such as pilots notes and flip cards are tip top up to date and scrutinized for accuracy prior to each season. The Royal Navy scrutinize the entire operation before it allows a serving officer to fly a civilian aircraft due to their duty of care. You folks on this site are considered to be aviation enthusiasts. That being the case don't speculate or postulate on situations you clearly have no idea about. Congratulate Simon on a most spectacular landing in extremely difficult circumstances and wish a very dedicated team all the best for a speedy recovery.

[innuendo]

You folks on this site are considered to be aviation enthusiasts

Hmmm, considered by who?
I suspect that many on this site have a bit more qualifications than "aviation enthusiasts" . :rolleyes:

[Davef68]

Damage looks remarkably light considering. Hopefully she can be repaired and back in the sky soon,

Looks light, but it must depend on how much damage to critical airframe components - engine mountings for example.

[MPN11]

Memories of an immaculate wheels-up Cangerra at Tengah. They thought that was Cat 1 [buff it out on the flight line] until they found the rear spar of the bomb bay was bent.

[Blacksheep]

I'm an aviation enthusiast.

As well as being IEng, MRAeS and a practicing engineer in Continuing Airworthiness Management with over 50 years military and civilian experience in electrical and avionics maintenance. My comment about civilians was simply to point out that aviation is as much a civilian business as military, regardless of the end-use of the machine. The Sea Vixen is an aeroplane and the background of its maintenance and operating crews is irrelevant as long as they are aviation professionals.

[tartare]

Touche sir!

[AGS Man]

Bit of a thread drift but the Shuttleworth Gladiator had to make a forced landing today due to what appears to be engine problems. Happy to say that the Pilot walked away and the Gladiator appears to vitually undamaged.

[Gullwings]

Many thanks to all of those who have worked so hard over the years to keep this wonderful Sea Vixen flying, be they maintainers, pilots, support staff, fund raisers, etc. Also what a great credit to the pilot and the aircraft designers that the aircraft could survive so well after such a wheels up landing. Best wishes with the repairs and I hope that this great aircraft will be gracing the skies again as soon as possible.:D

[XV490]

I hear that, alas, the Rotol gearbox between the Avons has been badly damaged.

[NickB]

I hear that, alas, the Rotol gearbox between the Avons has been badly damaged.

To the uneducated, how bad is that on a scale of 0 to 10?

I guess it also depends on spares availability... I seem to recall a few years ago the team changed one of these after small metal particles were identified in the oil filter?

[Nige321]

From the Navy Wings Facebook page...

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18922221_1926516280950690_4439956531727107265_n.jpg?oh=6e3dc 3ed143c0fe18b0cf25b1e703b41&oe=59E9A819

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18740101_1926516277617357_1682066351479450227_n.jpg?oh=12843 b24c74a35edfb0ca24573b64c43&oe=59A2282B

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18881861_1926516284284023_7535594026047355678_n.jpg?oh=36bb1 b89d2a38c92fa3923e765362440&oe=59D71C90

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18839368_1926516287617356_5457204103678692080_n.jpg?oh=259f4 277a71a7d553e4154b33b556024&oe=59D616C9

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19029189_1926516330950685_2432503161389537547_n.jpg?oh=8d73a bd493d0045ce0d24be2f6dfa20e&oe=59E69BAF

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18920610_1926516334284018_6578178169280241280_n.jpg?oh=05112 bb47d11fc28c56bd820cb4ae724&oe=59DA72C3

[Wander00]

It will buff out.....won't it. Hope so....

[Compass Call]

Have they found the reason for the undercarriage failure to extend?

[Onceapilot]

Thanks for the pici's!
A lot of airframe repair work there! It will be interesting to hear about the gearbox damage. Good luck with the repairs.:ok:

OAP

[gijoe]

I think she's a bit too complex an aircraft for the Navy to maintain! :D

Just reread this comment - what a great bloke you must be.

I am sure you are great company.

Dick.

[SpazSinbad]

AEROPLANE Magazine July 2017 'End of Classic Jets?' PDF 8 pages attached.

[NickB]

Seen on the key forums site today:

"Brief news item on BBC spotlight this morning. Interviewing the "Chief Engineer", who said that so far they had not found any damage that would stop it flying again, but it will take another two weeks to complete the inspection."

I've not found the clip/news item myself yet, but if true this is welcome news. I guess serious funds will be needed now if the aircraft is to be rebuilt back to airworthiness...

[BEagle]

A very short piece here from about 32:50:

BBC Local Live: 'Serious failures' at council children's services - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-bristol-40245770?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=593eef78e4b01815982f49de%26Sea%20Vixen's%20futur e%20considered%20after%20emergency%20landing%26&ns_fee=0#post_593eef78e4b01815982f49de)

Summarised as:

Engineers still don't know whether a rare Cold War fighter aircraft can be repaired after its emergency landing at Yeovilton's naval air station two weeks ago.

The only flying example of the Sea Vixen was on its way back from an airshow but it's wheels didn't come down and it was forced to do a belly landing.

Experts at Royal Navy historic flight are still trying to assess the damage and say it's too soon yet to say whether it will fly again.

Nevertheless, nothing has yet been found which would prevent the aircraft being repaired and flying again!

[NickB]

Thanks Beagle.

I guess it's a case of no news is good news... I'm really hoping it is good news although this aircraft seems to evoke polarising opinions on here!

[Treble one]

It would be tragic if the aircraft was damaged beyond repair and couldn't return to flight.


In some ways this aircraft is a natural replacement for the Vulcan on the airshow circuit as a Cold War 'heavy' jet.

[BEagle]

NickB wrote: I'm really hoping it is good news although this aircraft seems to evoke polarising opinions on here!

I hope so too as I have rather a soft spot for the 'Vixen!

51 ( :eek: ) years ago after I'd won an RAF Scholarship, the RAF wouldn't let me have an air experience flight in a Chipmunk as our school only had a pongo section of the CCF; however, thanks to a family friend, the FAA gave me a trip in the coal hole of a 'Vixen - in the 1966 Farnborough Air Show display, no less! No clear view looker's roof in those days - all I could see were the pilot's legs and the outside world through the small side window. But it was a fantastic experience!!

[RedhillPhil]

There was a little piece about it on the B.B.C. south west local news programme this evening. It would seem that the team are (fairly) confident that it'll be cleaving the air again one day.

[Preon]

NickB wrote:

I hope so too as I have rather a soft spot for the 'Vixen!

51 ( :eek: ) years ago after I'd won an RAF Scholarship, the RAF wouldn't let me have an air experience flight in a Chipmunk as our school only had a pongo section of the CCF; however, thanks to a family friend, the FAA gave me a trip in the coal hole of a 'Vixen - in the 1966 Farnborough Air Show display, no less! No clear view looker's roof in those days - all I could see were the pilot's legs and the outside world through the small side window. But it was a fantastic experience!!



you missed a great show!

[NickB]

NickB wrote:

I hope so too as I have rather a soft spot for the 'Vixen!

51 ( :eek: ) years ago after I'd won an RAF Scholarship, the RAF wouldn't let me have an air experience flight in a Chipmunk as our school only had a pongo section of the CCF; however, thanks to a family friend, the FAA gave me a trip in the coal hole of a 'Vixen - in the 1966 Farnborough Air Show display, no less! No clear view looker's roof in those days - all I could see were the pilot's legs and the outside world through the small side window. But it was a fantastic experience!!

Nice story Beagle - I can't imagine what it was like!

A friend of mine is an ex-FAA Observer on Phantoms although he started his training on Vixens - he couldn't wait to get on to F4s as it wasn't a pleasant place to be in the coalhole, day in, day out. I think a lot of the time was spent assisting the pilot with fuel management!

Fingers crossed she gets back into the air.

[Dr Jekyll]

It would be tragic if the aircraft was damaged beyond repair and couldn't return to flight.


In some ways this aircraft is a natural replacement for the Vulcan on the airshow circuit as a Cold War 'heavy' jet.

Although it was returned to flight in civilian hands many years before the Vulcan.

[Treble one]

Although it was returned to flight in civilian hands many years before the Vulcan.


Indeed Dr J-I meant in the sense that as the Vulcan is no more.....

[scorpion63]

Although it was returned to flight in civilian hands many years before the Vulcan.

And the civil operated Canberra a few years before the Vixen, and operated from 1995 to 2007 without a major problem. Maintained and flown by civilians with a world of military service experience.

[pulse1]

I too would be very sad if the Sea Vixen doesn't get to fly again but for very different reasons than BEagle's. One of the key people responsible for securing that aircraft for display flying was a very old friend of mine who was also ultimately responsible for inspiring me to becoming a pilot, albeit only as a PPL. The last time I spoke to him he was really excited about displaying the Vixen at the forthcoming Farnborough show. Sadly he died of heart disease before he was able to do so. I have seen it displayed many times and it has always reminded me of the great aerial and ground adventures we shared together over many years.

[S'land]

It would indeed be a sad day if the Sea Vixen cannot fly again. When I was a lad I had a Matchbox (other models are available) model which I kept with me through many changes of address. Right from the start I thought that it was one of the sleekest aircraft I had ever seen. sadly the model/toy was lost around 1990.

[Finningley Boy]

Although I'm sure I'd seen it before, my first recollection of seeing a Sea Vixen was at Finningley in 1969, it was a quite low and aggressive performance culminating in fast climb into a quite high cloud base, I wasn't entirely sure it was going to disappear into it, but it did!:ok:

I certainly hope the Sea Vixen gets into the air again!:ok:

FB:)

[Madbob]

Just seen the video and thought it strange that the pilot did not opt for an arrested landing into a cable as that would have minimised the ground slide, and minimised the risk of loss of directional control and going onto the bundu at high speed. It would I suspect have been the SOP for a gear-up landing when the Vixen was in FAA service.. Does anyone know it this assumption is correct or not?


MB

[Bing]

thought it strange that the pilot did not opt for an arrested landing into a cable

That would rather require cables on the runway you're using.

[keith williams]

Yeovilton had arrester gear during the 1960s and 1970s when operating Sea Vixens and Phantoms. But it has probably been removed since then.

If you go to the Seavixen.org website you can read the Pilots Notes and Flight Reference Cards. Arrested landings were not permitted with gear up.

[SpazSinbad]

Thanks for that info about NO arrests Gear up (with/without drop tanks?). Anyhoo Google Earth photo from 15 Aug 2016 shows arrestor gear on three runways.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/YeoviltonAirfieldGoogleEarth15aug2016forum.jpg~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/YeoviltonAirfieldGoogleEarth15aug2016forum.jpg.html)

[H Peacock]

I suspect the Vixen's hook is also hydraulically operated, so I presume like the gear it was also stuck in the raised position.

I'm fairly sure Yeovilton has barriers installed, but no cable/RHAGs.

[keith williams]

Flip cards say jettison drop tanks unless they are empty. But I suspect that the jettison facility in not cleared for use now.

Both the landing gear and the hook are powered by the green hydraulic system. Emergency power for both is provided by the red system. But as the use of arrester gear with landing gear up is not permitted, all of this is rather academic.

Perhaps the most curious aspect of this incident is the fact that the Ram Air Turbine (RAT) was deployed. This powers only the blue system, which operates the flying controls. So the use of the RAT could not do anything to help get the gear down.

[SpazSinbad]

Appypollylogies - in haste did not zoom GoogieEarth to see NO arrestor gear installed on any runway - just old bits of concrete for previous installations.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/YeoviltonAirfieldGoogleEarth15aug2016zoomFORUM.jpg~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/YeoviltonAirfieldGoogleEarth15aug2016zoomFORUM.jpg.html)

[Navaleye]

I had the pleasure of watching Beags flight in a Sea Vixen beating up Farnborough in 66 and have the cine to prove it. HMS Hermes airgroup in the good old days!

[BEagle]

Yes indeed - and thanks so much for the DVD copy! All I remember was lots of G, high IAS and AoB which I could just about make out by peering past the pilot at the instrument panel. I greyed out several times as I didn't have an anti-G suit and chundered copiously into a honk bag on the way back - but it was an amaxing experience, especially as Nigel took the formation back via another display for the benefit of Hermes (?) in harbour.

The variety of RN / RAF aircraft in those few minutes of ciné film makes me realise just how much we've lost since then. I see that the VC10 on static was one of the first I flew many years later on my OCU course in 1984 - and it was still going strong as a VC10C1K when I flew it for the last time in 2002!

Incidentally, there's a short piece from BBC Points West about the 'Vixen on the Navy Wings website.

[NickB]

Latest update from Navy Wings:

As you will be aware the Sea Vixen is still being stripped to assess the damage caused by the wheels up landing at RNAS Yeovilton on the 27 May 2017. Initial indications are that the repairs to the airframe will be extensive and the feeling is that they could take a minimum of 2 years to complete. However, depending on what other damage is found, this figure may be conservative and the rebuild could be longer, with the need to ensure all the systems are in A1 condition for further flight. The engineering team has now removed both engines along with the auxiliary gear box, which was extensively damaged in the wheels up landing. What has come to light is the cause of the hydraulic failure; the Green pump was seized and the quill drive shaft had fractured at its design weak point. The Red system is still under investigation as to why it failed to produce pressure when required, as visibly the pump and quill drive shaft appear to be serviceable. The intention is to have the Green and Red pumps independently checked for the cause of the failures.

Whatever the outcome of the damage assessment unfortunately it is becoming clearer that the recovery programme could be extensive.

https://www.navywings.org.uk/support-us/sea-vixen-appeal-2017/

[Finningley Boy]

I accept this will be no easy but two years to repair comes as a shock!

FB

[Nige321]

It gets worse... From Navy Wings...

Charity Appeals for White Knight

Following the emergency landing of Sea Vixen G-CVIX XP924 at RNAS Yeovilton on 27 May 17, Navy Wings is urgently seeking a ‘white knight’ sponsor to save the aircraft and restore this unique and nationally important naval heritage fighter to full flying condition.

Unfortunately the structural damage to the airframe is more serious than first thought. This includes cracks on both tail booms, warping of the main bulk heads in the engine compartment and major damage to the gear box. The important factor here was speed of landing. The Sea Vixen suffered a major hydraulic failure of both systems and the pilot, Commander Simon Hargreaves was unable to lower the flaps along with the under-carriage. This necessitated a high speed, low angle run on and the energy transferred itself through the airframe.

Work by Assessors estimate that it could take between 3-4 years and cost £2-3M to get her flying again. A white knight is needed in the next month who would be prepared to come to the rescue and under-write these costs and save the last flying Sea Vixen in the world, recognising her uniqueness and value to the Nation’s naval aviation heritage. #whiteknight #navywingsuk navywings.org.uk

[Wander00]

That sounds a bit as though things are desperate. Hope someone signs up

[NickB]

Awful news and I really feel for the whole Sea Vixen team... everything crossed that someone comes forward - in the grand scheme of things it's not a HUGE sum of money, but still a lot to find in a short space of time.

Such a stunning jet to watch flying...

:(

[MPN11]

Very sad news, especially following such an elegant no-gear landing.

[JW411]

I am a little bit confused here. The Sea Vixen is a registered civilian aircraft (G-CVIX) and is not owned by the Royal Navy. It therefore must have been insured by a civilian insurance company and not by the MOD.

Surely the insurers have a duty to restore the aircraft to its original state, reach a settlement with the owners or scrap it and allow the owners to buy back the wreckage?

(I have owned, operated and insured several civilian aircraft in my time).

[bvcu]

can't see that you would be able to insure an aircraft like that to cover repairs ! premium would be millions ! i suspect the cover is for 3rd party liability only ! lets hope someone will put some money in to keep her going !

[Compass Call]

Maybe they went for 'Third Party Only' instead of 'Fully Comprehensive' to save money!:confused:

Ooops! Didn't see post#101.

[sandiego89]

While it is always to sad to see a sole flyer retire, it does bring up the questions of when is it a good time to retire an airframe? Is the 2-3 million the best way to preserve FAA heritage? Are other projects more feasible? Please no pitchforks and I hate to be a wet blanket- I love to see flyers as much as anyone- but sometimes a well deserved retirement is...well deserved. If someone steps up- fantastic, and I do wish all concerned the very best.

[Wander00]

bring back the beautiful Seahawk....hat, coat

[Bonkey]

I guess one (slightly) positive is there are plenty of preserved Vixens around to get some airframe and other parts from, Notwithstanding of course that most of them will not have flown for some 45 years and corrosion etc will of course have taken it's toll and pumps, gearboxes etc will need extensive overhauls. However, some of the later frames operated by FR Aviation and RAE Llanbedr last flew only some 25 years ago.

XS590 has been preserved at Yeovilton and stored undercover most of the time too and I believe is also the last built Sea Vixen too. Potential boom donor maybe, swapping with the now cracked ones off XP924? All subject to being sound structurally and corrosion wise of course.

But then there is the money.......given their long association with the Sea Vixen I would love to see my old company FR Aviation (now Cobham) donating some cash and possibly resources given their large airframe and component overhaul business. Might be some good PR for them....

[NickB]

Fingers crossed someone comes forward to help them out - it's a big ask though.

Other airframes wise, even if other owners were prepared to have their pride & joys cannabilised, there must be other implications to consider such as flying hours/faitgue on said components (would the CAA allow this?) plus someone else has said that these aircraft were built in the analogue age and many donor components just might not fit!
I think brand newly built replacement parts is probbaly the only way to go - I'm certainly no expert, so hopefully someone more knowledgeable will be along soon to comment...

Everything crossed at this end for 'Foxy' though...

[pax britanica]

Whatever all the complexities of ownership and maintenance are that , to my amateur, eye looks a terrific piece of flying with no flaps so a fast approach speed and keeping it perfectly straight and level once its one the ground

[Bonkey]

Other airframes wise, even if other owners were prepared to have their pride & joys cannabilised, there must be other implications to consider such as flying hours/faitgue on said components (would the CAA allow this?) plus someone else has said that these aircraft were built in the analogue age and many donor components just might not fit!

That's what I meant by "structurally sound" in my post above - as in fatigue life. There was no problem with parts and airframe interchangeability when I worked on the FR Aviation operated fleet in the 70s and 80s. Plus the FAA did major repairs on them quite regularly when in service after very heavy landings and mishaps. I recall a wing replaced on one in FR service from a donor frame and other major airframe components.

With respect to other owners having their "price and joy" cannibalized....if they are never going to fly again and only museum exhibits, why wouldn't another owner want to assist - particularly the FAA Museum who surely would have a vested interest in the RN having a flying frame? Plus any internal component, ie gearbox will not really matter either as it will never, ever be functionally used again on the donor frame?

[H Peacock]

Is anyone out there able to shed a bit more light on the vagaries of the Sea Vixen's hydraulic system? Is it similar to the other twin-Avon types, i.e. Lightning/PR9 where each engine drives a pair of pumps; 2 of these being effectively paralleled to provide a utilities/services supply with the other 2 pumps each supplying their own 'controls' supply. This gave redundancy at almost every level.

The PR9 undercarriage emergency lowering was via a hand-pump, whereas the Lightning used one of the 2 'controls' systems to provide the necessary pressure.

The report makes mention of Green and Red system pumps; one of which seized but the other failed to provide any output. Do these pumps both provide pressure to the utilities/services system??

[SpazSinbad]

Sea Vixen Mk.2 Pilot Notes Hydraulic System PDF 2.5Mb:

https://www.seavixen.org/images/documents/3.Hydraulics.pdf

[H Peacock]

Hi SpazSinbad

Thanks for that - very quick service! The Vixen's hyd system looks a tad more complex than both the Lightning & PR9. It would appear that the Red and Green systems are completely independent apart from that rather involved common reservoir!

[keith williams]

The latest update on the navy wings website states that they have been unable to find a white knight to underwrite the repairs, so the future is not looking good. But it has only been a few weeks since the accident, so hopefully they will keep looking and eventually find the money.

[Compass Call]

I wonder when we will find out just what caused the accident.:confused:

[rcsa]

BAC Strikemaster Mk80 crashed and destroyed in Las Vegas yesterday. Pilot ok, apparently, thank goodness.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=196868

Pilot survives vintage military jet crash in Nevada desert (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/25/pilot-survives-vintage-military-jet-crash-nevada-desert/)

Probably one of those operated by Blue Air Training - https://www.blueairtraining.com/#slides

[Compass Call]

Anybody have an update on the Vixen?
Have they found the cause of why two hydraulic systems failed? Or was it something simple like electrical failure.

[Compass Call]

The AAIB report is published

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-dh110-sea-vixen-faw-mk-2-g-cvix

[Chris Scott]

The AAIB report is published

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-dh110-sea-vixen-faw-mk-2-g-cvix

Super. Could be invaluable as part of a refresher course on 1960s hydraulic systems. I remember the enthusiasm with which my instructor introduced us pilots to the concept of the swash-plate...