Light aircraft crash reported Mull Of Kintyre

[RINKER]

Light aircraft wreckage has been found on Mull Of Kintyre yesterday afternoon
No mention of type or POB
Can't see it posted anywhere else, sorry if already covered.

[glencoeian]

Debris found after Mull of Kintyre aircraft crash - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-40054779)

[dont overfil]

Reported on ITV news as a PA28 with a "library picture."��
Talk at Glenforsa yesterday was that it was a helicopter.
I heard nothing on 127.275.

[Jan Olieslagers]

One source mentions two fatalities but sounds a bit vague - two passengers? Two persons on board? Two crew?

https://www.obantimes.co.uk/2017/05/25/two-die-in-plane-crash-off-arran/

[fisbangwollop]

My thoughts are with family and friends. I know the details as this was very close to me
but not preparred to divulge on here.......never nice to lose a customer so feeling pretty down today.

[TelsBoy]

Not much info available on this one yet. The Oban Times article mentioned that the aircraft had left Oban but hasn't been confirmed elsewhere. Wreckage was reportedly found near Skipness. I wonder if they were intending going to Islay/Campbeltown judging from the direction.

[beyond the boundary]

There was sea fog in the area yesterday morning. Came on very quickly. Won`t speculate. Sad day for GA. :-(

[fisbangwollop]

Latest update....
Two men dead after light aircraft crash off Kintyre - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-40054779)

[Jonzarno]

FBW

I am so sorry to read about this tragedy and can well understand your feelings.

As someone who has often had the benefit of the excellent service that you and your colleagues provide, I'd like to express my thanks for that and the hope that this awful tragedy won't impact any of you too much. You make the skies safer for all of us and I thank you for that!

My deepest sympathies to all those connected with this tragedy.

[fisbangwollop]

Jonzarno...
Thank you for those kind words, much appreciated. We are all one big family in the GA world, pilots and ATC. Sadly flying over Scotland, despite its beauty does have its perils, quickly changing weather and challenging terrain. I am sure both myself and my colleagues try our best to reduce any possible hazard by providing the service that we do. Today is another day and we must just get on with the task, a planned fly-in to Mull should keep us all on our toes doing the job that we all enjoy so much.
Safe flying to you all.

[sharpend]

We are planning a trip to Glen Forsa in July. We will be in the area for a week, island hopping. I have allowed 2 weeks, so if the weather is at all duff, we will hire a car and sight-see. As fisbangwollop says, the weather can be brilliant or dodgy. Mind you, it is important to have a plan B when flying and it helps if you have an instrument rating (I have). But in Scotland, some clouds have hard centres and quite often there is nasty ice about. I remember, years ago flying down a valley on the west coast and entered cloud. Lucky for me both burners took me to 20,000 feet in no time at all. Sadly now, my puddle-jumper cannot do that. Scotland, especially the west coast, is magical. But one needs to know what one is doing. That mountain ridge looks wonderful, but what about the downdraft of 1500 fpm?

[dont overfil]

sharpend I agree.
Last month on a gin clear day at 5000ft downwind of Arran, my head hit the roof, headset came off, loose articles everywhere. Ten seconds later dead smooth.

[27/09]

sharpend I agree.
Last month on a gin clear day at 5000ft downwind of Arran, my head hit the roof, headset came off, loose articles everywhere. Ten seconds later dead smooth.

A little bit of rotor.!!!! Wait till it rolls you upside down

[RAT 5]

I spoke to students in 70's who were navex-ing over the Pennines out of Barton . They were on the lee side at full climb power and climb attitude and descending 2-300fpm. Secret was not to keep puling back, not get too close to the up slope, accelerate and turn & run to a more friendly place and find another route over the top or climb higher first and then route well over the crest.

[cats_five]

I spoke to students in 70's who were navex-ing over the Pennines out of Barton . They were on the lee side at full climb power and climb attitude and descending 2-300fpm. Secret was not to keep puling back, not get too close to the up slope, accelerate and turn & run to a more friendly place and find another route over the top or climb higher first and then route well over the crest.

Flying directly downwind will quickly get you out of the sink of mountain wave. Personally I feel that when the wave is running isn't a good time to do a navex.

[TelsBoy]

Yes, the Highlands can be, er, "interesting" at times. Especially when the wind is from the South >30Kt it can be like being inside a tumble dryer below 3k. Over the Black Isle it can be murder sometimes.


One of the worst airfields I've flown out of was Kinloss. Once on departure on a windy day (20G30 from SSW IIRC) we had a 30 degree wing drop first left then right climbing through 2500'. Then lovely smooth air up to 5k. Returning on downwind we lost 300' literally in the blink of an eye, the approach to 25 was rather lively. Lots of mechanical turbulence from hangars, trees etc.


Have also had a few squirrely aerotows out of Feshiebridge too, slap bang in the Cairngorms.


Flying in this part of the country requires quite a bit of wariness especially towards Wx. One of my favourite books is "Mountain Flying" by Sparky Imeson - its written specifically for flying in the mountainous parts of The States but there's a lot of good tips in there that are still applicable.


Again very sad news for those involved. :(

[Forfoxake]

Flying in the Highlands and Islands, particularly in low wing loaded aircraft like microlights and the Kitfox, can be bumpy at times.


And the wind does not even have to be that strong. My most difficult approach (2) and landing (1) (*) at Glenforsa was last Friday with no more than a 15 knot crosswind (from the SE, of course)!


I have sometimes had to climb to 7-9000 feet to get above the turbulence particularly south of Inverness is a southerly/south-westerly.


Having said that, the worst turbulence I have ever experienced was in the valley north-east of Ambleside in the Lake District.


Also got an American book on mountain flying somewhere: remember tips like crossing ridges at an angle and flying on the upwind side of the valley but if the worst happens, slowing down, tightening your straps but not over-controlling and turning downwind to get out of it. Invaluable advice.


(*) Actually (2) after a big bounce following the second approach!

[cats_five]

There is a useful website that glider pilots use to see what the weather might be:

UK RASP Soaring Forecasts (http://rasp.inn.leedsmet.ac.uk/)

[piperboy84]

One of my favourite books is "Mountain Flying" by Sparky Imeson - its written specifically for flying in the mountainous parts of The States but there's a lot of good tips in there that are still applicable.

And even old Sparky the guy that literary wrote the book on mountain flying ending up pushing daisies due to flying in the mountains.

[maxred]

due to flying in the mountains.

Guys all good stuff, but the Mull of Kintyre is not mountainous, nor anywhere near the Highlands. At the Mull, the highest point is 1464 feet.

[dont overfil]

Guys all good stuff, but the Mull of Kintyre is not mountainous, nor anywhere near the Highlands. At the Mull, the highest point is 1464 feet.
Hi Maxred,
Skipness is only a few miles downwind (on Thurs) of Arran 2868ft.
However many other scenarios are possible

[Maoraigh1]

Max wind from Campbelltown METAR in online archive was 20 mph at noon that day. That doesn't suggest turbulence downwind of Arran that would trouble a Pa28.
Unless flying very low, sea fog shouldn't affect them - the terrain would give a good VFR horizon.
If flying very low, they should be able to climb when they see the fog forming.
They'd had a full day's rest after 9 hours climbing Ben Nevis.
Waiting for the AAIB report. There's no report so far of what wreckage was like - high speed impact, or ditching.

[maxred]

On another forum there were photographs posted from an aircraft travelling North to Oban, at the time of the incident. Over the Firth of Clyde, as he passed PIK, there was a large bank of sea fog. Not sure how further West it travelled, but it appeared pretty extensive. The route North was pretty overcast, with breaks. If these guys had to ditch, it would be difficult coming through a low level fog bank. As Maoraigh1 states, await the report. I was only stating a geographical point regarding mountains. DO, appreciate Goat Fell, but that is Arran, not the Mull.

[piperboy84]

A control issue seems more likely than mechanical as the channel they came down in is only 3 miles wide. If they had a mechanical issues mid channel anything above appx. 1000 feet cruise altitude is gonna get you a glide back to shore.

[maxred]

PB, agree. I reviewed the video, taken from 5300, over Dunoon, and it was pretty crap. OC about 3500, no breaks visible, with the fog bank extending to Arran. I have ran into a wall of fog at that channel many times. Only way is up and on top. Or through it, but then you are full IMC.

[piperboy84]

PB, agree. I reviewed the video, taken from 5300, over Dunoon, and it was pretty crap. OC about 3500, no breaks visible, with the fog bank extending to Arran. I have ran into a wall of fog at that channel many times. Only way is up and on top. Or through it, but then you are full IMC.
I had I bit of "oh **** what am I doing here" moment over that area a few years back before I had my instrument ticket. Heading back up to Forfar from Strathaven in the alley between GLA and EDI and decided on the spur of the moment to swing west and go to Glenforsa for something to eat, got clearance for the overhead at Glasgow then started climbing . First broken layer was about 3K then a second one about 5k, was stitching my way up thru holes in the layers when my room to manoeuvre started closing up coupled with slowing climb rate, smaller holes and the layers merging all accompanied with that knot in my stomach getting bigger and tightening grip on the yolk. I thought to myself you idiot going of on an unplanned jolly in marginal weather over the West Coast. Broke out on top to blue skies, my arse immediately unpuckered itself and I had a lovely lunch at the hotel.
Lessons learned: Look before you leap.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Max wind from Campbelltown METAR in online archive was 20 mph at noon that day. That doesn't suggest turbulence downwind of Arran that would trouble a Pa28.

Hmm. Some years ago I was flying downwind of Snowdonia near Anglesey with Caernarfon surface wind < 5 KTS when we were hit by lee side turbulence. I have never experienced turbulence like it; I could not control the aeroplane, I was a passenger, my head was hitting the canopy despite a tightened aerobatic harness, the aeroplane was being tossed like a cork on a rough sea, and wisps of cloud were forming and dispersing around us in the otherwise clear air. I feared for the integrity of the airframe (Chipmunk, so quite strong). I headed away from the hills and Just as suddenly as it had started, it spat us out.

A few years before that incident a C150 I used to fly out of Manchester crashed on the lee side of Kinder Scout in Derbyshire in severe sink at night, with Manchester Airport (who was working them) reporting a surface wind of < 5 KTS. The AAIB report indicated there was an unusual air formation over the hills funneling the surface air between the upper mass and the top of the hill; the estimated surface wind speed on Kinder summit was > 50 KTS! Thankfully the pilots escaped with minor injuries.

I suspect we encountered a similar phenomena that day near Snowdonia.

Local lowland calm winds do not mean you will not experience deadly turbulence downwind of mountains.

Not suggesting of course that that was the case here. Just passing on some experience I hope might be useful regarding flying downwind of mountains even in low reported surface winds.

[RAT 5]

I was in a region of nicely rounded hills/ridges about 3500' above a wide 10mile, flat valley. The medium level clouds were quiet suggesting a light wind at 10,000'. The valley showed a light breeze. On top of the hills it was 40kph. This could easily have set up a wave downwind of the ridges and would suggest a squeezing of the wind between ground & a medium level lid. There was no visible inversion. Meteorology can bring about many nigh invisible surprises.

[Maoraigh1]

Unpleasant​ turbulence is one thing. Turbulence which will down a Pa28 is another matter.
There's no mention of any distress message being picked up, and on any likely frequency, on that day, in that area, I'd expect any transmission to be heard by someone, even if from a very low altitude.
I'd expect there would be a radar track for most of the flight, but that won't be public until the accident report is issued.
As regards being able to glide to shore, ditching might be a preferred option with engine failure, but not 2 miles offshore.

[piperboy84]

As regards being able to glide to shore, ditching might be a preferred option with engine failure, but not 2 miles offshore

Looking at google earth the shorelines on each side of the channel appear to have favorable spots to put down, unless of course they could not see either the beaches or water, nor had a moving map to guide them to within close proximity of the shoreline.

[Forfoxake]

Unpleasant​ turbulence is one thing. Turbulence which will down a Pa28 is another matter.
There's no mention of any distress message being picked up, and on any likely frequency, on that day, in that area, I'd expect any transmission to be heard by someone, even if from a very low altitude.
I'd expect there would be a radar track for most of the flight, but that won't be public until the accident report is issued.
As regards being able to glide to shore, ditching might be a preferred option with engine failure, but not 2 miles offshore.



Agreed about turbulence- I think the thread drifted a bit off topic earlier.


However, not sure I agree with you on ditching, even near the shore. I have thought for many years that landing on dry land, especially if semi-prepared like forest tracks, under control is preferable. The gliding guys at Oban reckoned you would usually crawl away from it even if the wings are knocked off by the trees! On the other hand, you could make a perfect ditching and still drown or, more likely, die from hypothermia. Discuss?

[Parson]

Got caught on the lee side of mountains in Wales once, in fairly strong westerly winds. V poor planning on my part.

Struggled to keep shiny side up and only just managed to maintain altitude at full power. Frightening experience and lesson learnt.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Parson, you'll note from my post that even with good planning and almost zero reported local surface wind, severe turbulence can still get you if you fly downwind of mountains.

And it can be more subtle than that. I was once doing a biennial check out of Liverpool (usually done with an aeros instructor in our Chippy, but I'd left it too late and was doing it in a PA38 from the Liverpool club). Not being aerobatic, I'd opted to spend the hour in the Tommy on instrument revision and the instructor (not having screens) put charts up to block the outside view.

At one point I had cruise power set, and cruise attitude. Speed was correct on the ASI but we were going down. I pointed this out to the instructor and he couldn't explain it. I moved the chart for a look upwind..... we were downwind of a considerable Welsh hill!

Sorry to continue the slight thread drift but I think it's worth saying...

[Deltasierra010]

Sympathy to the families of those involved.
Having flown from Feschiebridge and Aboyne in gliders I learned how unpredictable the conditions can be, outwardly benign on the airfield can be viscous a few miles away a few thousand feet higher. Gliding has the advantage of being mainly club based where pilots are briefed comprehensively by a local expert, often the CFI who knows where the dangerous conditions are likely to be that day.
Gliders are usually looking for Wave to climb but if you get it wrong and fall into the rotor you need to get out fast, with altitude no harm done but lower down deadly, never underestimate changing conditions close to any hills.

[PPRuNeUser0178]

I recall doing an instructors course at Dundee many moons ago. I was north of Errol, full flap, idle power and side slipping and the little C152 remained in level flight, never having been in a glider before I'd seen nothing like it. We spun it to get down in the end.

[aligee]

Last Friday I went for an anti clockwise flight round the Glasgow zone in a 6 mph north westerly and experienced some of the most uncomfortable turbulence I have felt in 30 years of flying.On the return to Strathaven I joined dead side at 1750 qfe for a 27 rt hand crosswind join to find the low level wind favoured an easterly landing and announced my intention to join cross wind for 09 and turned 180 to join the circuit dead side for 09.in the turn I suddenly found the aircraft turning in a spiral dive to the left (initial thought wow what the f**k .)I lost 200ft during this and did have a small brown trouser moment.On finals at 400 ft 1/2 mile out with full flaps and idle (all looking good) I suddenly went up 1000 ft a minute and just commenced a side slip when the bottom fell out the market and went back down 1000 ft a minute.I was stunned that in seemingly calm conditions we can be lulled into a false sense of security.lesson learnt is if my ex instructor has decided not to fly due to turbulence he felt then follow his lead and leave the aircraft in the hangar.No harm done this time but I learned something.

[piperboy84]

Last Friday I went for an anti clockwise flight round the Glasgow zone in a 6 mph north westerly and experienced some of the most uncomfortable turbulence I have felt in 30 years of flying.On the return to Strathaven I joined dead side at 1750 qfe for a 27 rt hand crosswind join to find the low level wind favoured an easterly landing and announced my intention to join cross wind for 09 and turned 180 to join the circuit dead side for 09.in the turn I suddenly found the aircraft turning in a spiral dive to the left (initial thought wow what the f**k .)I lost 200ft during this and did have a small brown trouser moment.On finals at 400 ft 1/2 mile out with full flaps and idle (all looking good) I suddenly went up 1000 ft a minute and just commenced a side slip when the bottom fell out the market and went back down 1000 ft a minute.I was stunned that in seemingly calm conditions we can be lulled into a false sense of security.lesson learnt is if my ex instructor has decided not to fly due to turbulence he felt then follow his lead and leave the aircraft in the hangar.No harm done this time but I learned something.

If you're flying out of Strathaven you should be well used to getting bumped and thrown around and that's before you in the air😀

[cats_five]

I recall doing an instructors course at Dundee many moons ago. I was north of Errol, full flap, idle power and side slipping and the little C152 remained in level flight, never having been in a glider before I'd seen nothing like it. We spun it to get down in the end.

I know a couple of glider pilots who were doing some sort of licence conversion 3-4 years ago. The instructor was puzzled when they encountered what you describe, he had no idea what was going on. They explained, the penny gradually dropped with him that he had met the reverse not long before. I was astonished that an instructor flying from somewhere that gets regular mountain wave didn't recognise it.

PS if you'd flown downwind into the sink that would have got you down as well!

[RAT 5]

PS if you'd flown downwind into the sink that would have got you down as well!

PDQ and another WTF moment. First was when you couldn't go down; swiftly followed by not being able to go up.

[Peter Ogilvie]

Evening guys, I,m not a pilot and in general I,m fairly ignorant with regard to most things around PPL, however this crash involved my two friends who I'd spent 4 days with including climbing Ben Nevis. The reason for me joining your forum and posting on here is I'd like to know how long the AAIB may take to discover the cause and will they make their findings public ? Also they have located the main body of the plane around 40 metres down, will they recover it ? Bearing in mind the aircraft had only flown around 60 miles in 30 minutes it was full of fuel, would that pose a contamination risk to wildlife ?? Sorry for so many questions, all responses gratefully received thank you.

[Planemike]

Peter............. Firstly, very sorry to hear that two of your friends died in the accident. Please accept my condolences.

I am not a pilot but maybe able help you with some answers. The accident will be fully investigated by the AAIB and a report will be published which will be in the public domain. It is difficult to give a firm time scale, to an extent it will depend on the amount of investigative work required. As a rough guide I would expect to see a report issued around a year after the accident. https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/air-accidents-investigation-branch

As to recovery, I am sure there are other with more experience than me to answer your question. If the bodies remain with wreckage I would expect efforts would be made to effect a recovery. Even with full tanks a PA28 will hold less than 100 litres of fuel which will literally be a "drop in the ocean". The tanks may have ruptured on impact, in which case much of it will have evaporated. It is possible the tanks could still be intact. It then follows, if the wreckage is recovered, care would be taken by the recovery team. If the wreckage stays on the seabed, eventually the tanks will leak their contents. Yes, there by be some damage to the environment but it would be minimal given the dilution by the seawater present. Hope that gives you some information.

[Peter Ogilvie]

Planemike thanks for the information and the link to their site, both bodies were recovered on the day of the accident, so I,m guessing there's no need to recover the aircraft, I didn't realise it carried so little fuel !! I know it was full because it was filled the previous day at Oban, the day the were due to fly home but the weather was too bad. The weather on Thursday 25th May was so much better and the staff at the airport advised waiting an hour for some weather to clear around Campbeltown, the guys actually waited 90 minutes before departing, so I,m guessing weather was no issue ? Thanks again for your reply.

[flyingboy101]

.....so I,m guessing weather was no issue ?

I wouldn't assume this. (I was in the area at the time.)

[460]

Likewise, my condolences.
An understanding of what went wrong can be an important part of dealing with a tragedy.

The AAIB are a diligent organisation; we all await their report.
Perhaps best to bear in mind that a fundamental part of their processes is to treat the statements confidentially, utterly confidentially. That way, people feel free to speak the truth, admit mistakes and so on without fear of retribution or legal consequences.

That said, from the very little I have heard of this accident, witness statements sound unlikely.

[dsc810]

Bear in mind also that unlike commercial transport planes, with light aircraft there are no cockpit voice recorders or flight data recorders which record all control movements and lots of other instrumentation and engine parameters.
In this case it appears the AAIB do not have the have the wreckage either - often in the absense of the above electronic data the wreck may provide clues. As an example the air speed at impact can often be determined by the imprint the speed indicator needle makes on the instrument case dial when the aircraft crashes.
Whether or not the AAIB decide to recover the wreckage will depend on many things. If they suspect some mechanical failure which might impact other aircraft of the same type flying and require urgent fixing on them then obviously the impetus for recovery is more than if they believe the pilot' made an error'. Sadly one factor is simply the cost of such an undertaking to recover the wreckage.
They may seek to recover just certain components - a GPS chips for instance might contain flight logs or position and altitude data which might be recoverable with expert help from the GPS manufacturer.....

So the AAIB may have far less to work with than the mega commercial plane accidents and hence it can be in some circumstances that an explanation of what happened simply cannot be determined with any certainty. In such cases the report can only suggest various possibilities.

[Planemike]

My estimate of fuel quantity was rather low: I am told a PA28 holds about 189 litres with full tanks. Still a "drop in the ocean".... Thank you for the correction.

[Peter Ogilvie]

Thanks guys for all the info and replies, I hear the confidentially statement as well so maybe best I don't reveal too much more here, just 1 more thing, is there a Mayday button as such in a Piper or is it only raised by radio contact ?

[Jonzarno]

Not a "Mayday button" as such, but entering (squawking) 7700 on the aircraft's transponder is how it is done.

[Chuck Glider]

Not a 'Mayday button' at all!

Dialing up the 7700 squawk on a transponder at a time when the crew have their hands full with an emergency at what I presume was relatively low altitude is going to be very low on the list of priorities. In a critical situation with little time available probably the only viable option would be to key the mic button under the thumb and make a 'Mayday' call on whatever frequency was currently selected on the radio. But a 'Mayday' call might not have crossed their minds for even that small action would have demanded mental capacity to be diverted from the real requirement of handling the situation.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Evening guys, I,m not a pilot and in general I,m fairly ignorant with regard to most things around PPL, however this crash involved my two friends who I'd spent 4 days with including climbing Ben Nevis. The reason for me joining your forum and posting on here is I'd like to know how long the AAIB may take to discover the cause and will they make their findings public ? Also they have located the main body of the plane around 40 metres down, will they recover it ? Bearing in mind the aircraft had only flown around 60 miles in 30 minutes it was full of fuel, would that pose a contamination risk to wildlife ?? Sorry for so many questions, all responses gratefully received thank you.

I'm sorry to hear this Peter. I was flying in the area, and was probably one of the last people to speak to your friends before they took off (and before anybody asks, everything I can remember has already been written up and sent to the AAIB, although I don't think that I have many particular insights, and AAIB don't seem to think so either).

AAIB reporting times are extremely variable, because of course there are no "standard" aircraft accidents. My suspicion is that this one will take a while, from my observations of AAIB (whose work I have professional interests in).

Will they try and raise the wreckage? I don't know, but as has already been said, this will depend entirely upon whether they think that there are important answers to be found down there that they can't establish otherwise. Only the AAIB inspectors on the scene know the answer to that.


It may be helpful to understand AAIB's job. Contrary to popular opinion, it is not their job to understand the accident - although they do do that, it's as a means to an end. AAIB's job is to learn enough to make recommendations which, if followed, can prevent (or at least significantly reduce the risk of) future accidents. When they do this well, it is a very valuable service to the community - if you want to read an example of this done well download their final report on the Shoreham air crash.

What I do know of this accident suggests that pilot ability and weather will both be under scrutiny, as will some of the local services to provide pilots with information. What I don't know is whether the AAIB will consider that, when they learn about them, those will be sufficient to create as many useful recommendations as they can towards the prevention of future accidents. This is what is likely to determine whether they consider there's a need to try and raise the wreckage.

G

[ericferret]

Hi Peter

In respect of the contamination issue and assuming the aircraft was not fitted with a diesel contamination is unlikely. Avgas is a very light fuel and would rise to the surface and evaporate. Ask anyone who runs a fuel installation about evaporation losses.
Any seabird that landed it would shift fairly quickly and again it would evaporate off.
Having being covered in it more than once in my career I can vouch for that.

[Peter Ogilvie]

Thanks for all the information and your patience guys !! Please if you hear anything get in touch, thanks again.

[nevillestyke]

There is a useful website that glider pilots use to see what the weather might be:

UK RASP Soaring Forecasts (http://rasp.inn.leedsmet.ac.uk/)

It's now moved to:

RASPtableGM (http://rasp-uk.uk/RASPtableGM/RASPtableGM.html)

[fisbangwollop]

The AAIB report now published on this accident. It can be found in the may monthly report.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/700632/AAIB_Bulletin_5-2018_Lo_res.pdf