MS big update but now not a W10 with key.

[Loose rivets]

Having been so disenchanted with my Lenovo quad i5 PC that I stuck it in a spare room and forgot about it, yesterday I took it out and let it update.

The W10 was a correctly carried out free upgrade from 8.1 home and worked okay. Now it was not showing as authenticated. Trying to authenticate it gave me a screen with a request for a key. I've never had one. And no, there's not one on the Windows hologram.

Stuffed, yet again.

I got back in by using my Windows sign in and that works, but I want to sell this . . . object and any purchaser will of course expect a licensed copy of Windows, which I felt sure I had.

Any ideas what to do. Lenovo won't play with folk after one year, and this machine was boxed for that time.

[G0ULI]

If an upgrade to Windows 10 is carried out on a system that was previously running a qualifying operating system, (usually Windows 7 or 8), the authentication process is carried out automatically by carrying across the authentication of the original operating system. There is no need for the user/upgrader to enter any codes.

If for some reason the original operating system does not qualify for an upgrade, or is not recognised as being genuine, then a nagging prompt will appear indicating that the Windows 10 installation is unlicensed. The screen background is locked and some other personalisation options are greyed out. That is the sum total of the difference between a licensed and unlicensed copy of Windows 10. You can of course change the screen background by just selecting a photo, right clicking and selecting the option to display that as the desktop background.

All updates and other functions should work fine.

Any PC with a genuine copy of Windows, built in the last decade or more ago will have a hologram sticker somewhere in or on the machine with the authentication code for that copy of Windows. A duplicate of the information should be contained in the documents supplied with the computer. If there isn't a hologram sticker or you haven't got the documents with the information, then the computer supplier didn't supply you with a valid copy of Windows in the first place.

There is a grey area where OEM copies of Windows software were used on multiple machines and not strictly in accordance with Microsoft's licensing requirements. Given that Microsoft currently demand between $120-$200 USD for a licensed copy of Windows depending on whether you want the Home or Professional version, you can see why a lot of constructors sailed very close to the wind from a legal point of view.

Basically Microsoft have made it uneconomic for pirated copies of Windows to be sold, because the genuine article works fine even if unauthorised. That is a good thing from the point of view of trying to ensure that computers users don't succumb to viruses and malware because they are running hacked versions of Windows. It makes good business sense to try and keep a degree of confidence in the security and stability of your operating system. Microsoft make enough money from the business market that they don't need to fleece home owners too, but there is no harm in trying, right?

So provided you can ignore the nag prompt and you are prepared to work around the personalisation limitations, an unauthenticated version of Windows 10 will work completely normally.

Although the licence number hologram stickers are usually stuck on the outside of computers, on the back panel of desktops and underneath the base of laptops, they may also be found stuck inside removeable panels such as inside the battery compartment or inside the upgrade panels for disk drives and memory, especially with laptops. If your computer was initially supplied with a genuine copy of Windows, the licence number will be on it or in it somewhere, but it may take some looking! :-)

[Loose rivets]

Any PC with a genuine copy of Windows, built in the last decade or more ago will have a hologram sticker somewhere

Yep, I went all through this with my Asus laptop in Texas. Just the little square hologram. Finally, MS relented and sold me a pro 8.1 for 45 bucks. Not bad for a free and clear copy.

I had REALLY searched for the key over some days. Berrated Asus, and begged MS No one would give me the key at first and it seems Belarc pump out random keys that don't work. Ho hum.

Anyway, this was okay, but realised I did a reinstall after trying to put an SSD in the front end of this Lenovo. The BIOS would not see it, and then I did something or another and the W10 (which had been upgraded from 8.1) had to be freshly installed. All went fine. So their supplied copy, but two things: I'm not totally sure it was authenticated after all that fluffing about on the second install. I'd have thought I would have done as it was certainly authenticated after the 'upgrade' to W10. But memory fails me how I reinstalled it. But it certainly didn't ask me for a key - because I simply didn't have one.

Left it for months, and updated windows. Then I'm locked out until I looked on't net for a way around. That got me in, but progressing without the key means it's now tied to my MS account - so it explained to me on a dedicated screen. I guess a purchaser of this tinny blob of a PC with no BIOS control* could also have a MS account, but it's already going to be hard to get me money back on the darn thing and I want it just to work simply for an ordinary user. It's like new with the plastic on and box. It should have fetched a few bob.


*A pal's given up on his Lenovo for exactly the same reason. He tried for ages to get the BIOS to see other drives. Nothing. Ever. No extra power supplies either. And the PSU is about one watt.

I bought it because another pal had been pleased with the brand for some years and it was a high spec for 199.

I'm going for a G-byte or Asus board with the on-MB SSD drives. Never seen that before. Two SSD's plus a RED drive for long term storage should see me out.


NB. When I got back to the UK I'd got my motherboard with me and installed a new SSD. The downloaded W10 needed a key. Mmmm. I tried this and that and then I just happened to have the key off the side of the original HP case, - too heavy to lug back home - and this old Vista or even XP key, worked. It must have married the board with the old OS. Or it was just chance it picked that moment. Anyway, that's history.

[G0ULI]

One of the hardest concepts to get your head around when playing with computers is that you buy a software licence to run programs. You do not "own" the software. You buy the right to run the software. This is difficult to get your head around, for most people, because they have a CD-ROM or DVD with the software on it and possibly a set of manuals. So it is only natural to think you have physical ownership. Nothing is further from the truth.

If you read through the hundreds of pages of user licence agreements couched in dense legal prose and six point sans serif font, you will discover that it is all designed to present the fact that you have been granted very limited rights to run the software and the software manufacturer may withdraw that right or support on any or no reasons at all.

The easiest way to get around these registration issues is having the foresight to make copies of all the registration details in the first place. There are several programs available that will search through your computer and identify the software licence codes. Some even work after problems have arisen, but the key point is that you need to be prepared before problems start.

Before doing any upgrades or modifications, run one of these software licence details capture programs and print off the results.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing when it comes to computers. I started out building my first computer from scratch using discrete components and loading and saving programs from an audio cassette tape. I regard myself as being pretty computer literate but I still frequently get caught out by hardware and software issues.

[PDR1]

I think the problem may be simpler. Even for machines that qualified, W10 upgrades were only free for a limited period of time, and that period has now passed. If you do an upgrade installation now it is my understanding that you will have to purchase a new license.

PDR

[G0ULI]

PDR1

You are correct. There are ways and means of obtaining a legitimate installation code. I will have to leave it to the inventiveness and imagination of others as to how that might be done. :hmm:

[Loose rivets]

I can't remember who it was, but one of the highest MS bods said in front of a sizeable audience, 'The free upgrade of W10 is permanent'. 'No charges, ever'. Unequivocal, and said in one of those sincere voices that make you think, Does he mean that? :hmm:

I was aware we don't own the software, but then there was always the established conventions that one assumed would be kind of honoured. Kind of, is about as good as it gets I suppose.

[G0ULI]

Well Windows 10 works okay even without an official licence key, it is just the nag prompt on the Control Panel screen and limited options to personalise the machine without jumping through hoops that is different from the full licensed package.

This really is no different to how shareware operated years ago and even today. You tried the software and after a certain time, nagging messages would appear at start up, or certain functions were limited unless you paid for the software. Most people never bothered in my experience. I did pay for a few programs I found useful and used daily, only to find the programs being bought up by large software houses who insisted on being paid again, frequently for every update. Let's just say, I found alternative means of obtaining and running the updated software, that in my opinion and according to the original licence conditions, I had already fully paid for.

Microsoft have what amounts to essentially a monopoly on the software that most computer users see on their screen. The underlying network may run using Unix or whatever, but people have got used to working with Windows in business and in the home. Despite its' quirks and security issues, it works fine most of the time for most people. Considering the complexity of modern operating systems and the variety of equipment that it is required to work on, I think Windows 10 is little short of a miracle in working as well as it does.

Rival operating systems from the likes of Apple rely on strict hardware specifications and strict licensing and testing of add on software to provide security and a pleasant user experience. This does not come cheaply!

Linux, in all its varieties, requires the user to adapt the software to suit their own particular setup. If you hit any snags, you ultimately have to sort any problems out yourself. Nominally free software for everything you might ever want to do with a computer, but a very steep learning curve is required.

I don't think Microsoft have done anything particularly underhand. They are faced with a huge range of different hardware running different versions of Windows. It simply isn't practicable to maintain backwards compatibility between all the versions. Certain security loopholes and limitations have been exposed on the older software that simply cannot be patched. For example, the early encryption methods that were thought to be proof against decryption for a thousand years can now be cracked in seconds using a desktop computer.

One of my maths teachers at school stated unequivocably that there would never be a computer built that could beat a human at chess, because there were too many moves to calculate. It would take until the end of the universe to calculate a move as the game progressed past the book opening stages. Desktop PCs play at a level far exceeding the abilities of most players and dedicated computers have beeaten the world's best human champions. Who knows where quantum computers will take us?

So I think the drive to get as many organisations and individuals as possible to switch to Windows 10 makes sound economic sense. It benefits Microsoft from a business point of view, but it also stimulates a computer industry that has been stagnating a bit because people and companies have been hanging in to outdated software and equipment on the basis of it still works fine, we'll just keep on using it. Microsoft have made it as easy as possible to move to the new operating system legitimately or otherwise without opening the door to software pirates who might supply copies deliberately engineered to leak information. They deserve a lot of credit for that in my opinion.

[PDR1]

I can't remember who it was, but one of the highest MS bods said in front of a sizeable audience, 'The free upgrade of W10 is permanent'. 'No charges, ever'. Unequivocal, and said in one of those sincere voices that make you think, Does he mean that? :hmm:


He was being truthful. The limited-time offer was that if you ungraded to W10 within the specified period you would not be charged for it later (ie it wasn't a deferred payment offer). If you didn't upgrade within the specified period then you missed the offer and you would then have to pay for the upgrade.

Microsoft made this very, very clear and sent out gazzilions of email reminders to people with registered earlier windows versions reminding them "you have only x days left to upgrade", where "x" started at 300 days and continued down to 1 day in something like 25 day increments IIRC. I know we made a point of going around the house and doing installs on the 6 laptops, three desktops and three netbooks that were still serviceable at the time (many had been superseded, but retained as backups in case they were needed).

IMHO anyone who chose to decline the offer at the time only has themselves to blame.

PDR

[Bushfiva]

You can still get a free upgrade at Microsoft.com if you confirm you need to use accessibility devices.

[le Pingouin]

I've had Win10 do this to me once when transferring a drive from one system to another. Turned out the new drive had Win10 Pro on it and the system had been upgraded to Win10 Home, i.e. it lacked the digital entitlement for Pro so was rightly complaining.

Is that a possibility with this system rivets? Was the drive and Win10 installation transferred from another system?

[cdtaylor_nats]

Install Belarc Advisor and run it - that will tell you your license keys for all your software

[captainflinstone]

If you use your pc or laptop for standard applications and you don't require any special software, consider using Linux.
It is way faster and smoother, doesn't crash and runs all your daily applications.
If you want a Widows style OS consider Zorin OS, if you prefer Apple style with a Dock go for elementary os. The operating systems are ubuntu based and have great documentation for installing and maintaining. You can install well developed open source software such as thunderbird (outlook), libreoffice (office) and any browser you prefer. The programs have the same functionality as the professional versions proprietary software and come with regular updates. A program called playonlinux makes you run almost all windows programs on linux. You don't have to worry about virusses and system crashes and the system is so smooth and light that it even runs good on older hardware.:ok:

[Loose rivets]

As it happens, the SSD offered up to the Lenovo did have W10 Pro on it. But it's probably academic since the machine's BIOS never recognised the new device. Odd though, because it was when I put the 2TB HD back in that I found the originally upgraded W10 was destroyed. However, IIRC, the recover did not want a key - that came with a big update after weeks of inactivity. That's IF IRC.

A By the way. I put that SSD back in the laptop that it had been upgraded on (from 7 Pro) and it still worked. Not sure I want to try that again, though that machine is running on W7 since the Vaio name has been sold 'To a group of investors and that's why we're not writing drivers for the older machines.' Blooody Nora. An i7Vaio, too old for drivers. (it runs on W10, but the Fn and S1 buttons do nowt. )

I called an experienced dealer in a nearby town today - he was the one that a while ago said that one was allowed three changes on a given OS. I never put that to the test, though looking back I did seem to get away with a few 'pushin' me luck' situations.

Now he says HD and something else is okay, but MB, a definite loss of your OS. How bloody miserable of them. I know why, but it's just not kind. when you've had such bad luck.:{

Belarc. Yes, I mentioned that. It's been suggested that it pumps out random and worthless keys. In other words, MS are on to them*. Certainly, the keys I've gleaned since W10 simply have not worked.

I'll try Belarc again. I'm inclined to like them since a chap there worked with me** trying to get the key for my Asus hi-end laptop. (The reduced No key on the Hologram sticker.)

"We can't get them yet, but we will."

But, is it going to be a pain trying the results?

At the moment, the PC is going via my MS account. If I get a key via Belarc, presumably I'll have to do a clean install before being asked to put a key in again. Mucho workload, but my curiosity is piqued.



* I wonder how long it will be before they're on to the Key's for Sale. Normal ISO download of the latest, and then buy a key for a few $. It doesn't seem possible anything nasty could be in that software as it just generates a key. Or not even that, just gives the key. Not sure which. I hasten to add, I've not tried it.

** So nice in the US, I seemed to get chatting to folk with such ease. Indeed, that was where a nice MS lady said how many seats I'd got left on my Office. Very impressive, even if rather frighteningly all-seeing.

I'm still doing a bit of watch fettling, and it's easier for me to call one of my old suppliers in the US than try to deal with companies here.

[G0ULI]

The attached link helps to explain some of the mystery around whether or not Windows 10 is a permanent free upgrade or not. It seems that it is, although Microsoft would much prefer to sell you a licence key.

Here's how you can still get a free Windows 10 upgrade | ZDNet (http://www.zdnet.com/article/heres-how-you-can-still-get-a-free-windows-10-upgrade/?ftag=TREe331754&bhid=21537869813070301219915807024825)