Sion SIR/LSGS

[Tagron]

This start up airline plans to commence operations in December linking Sion SIR/LSGS with six UK and two continental European destinations for the skiing season. At present it appears to be a virtual airline that will use an ACMI operator. It plans to obtain its own AOC in future.

Planned destinations are LTN, SOU, SEN, EDI, BRS, MAN, Hamburg and Antwerp. The aircraft type was initially to be a Fokker 100 but more recently the company was reported to be seeking an A319.

Sion airport is a joint civil/military airfield, but the Swiss Air Force are reportedly to pull out this year leaving the airport in civilian hands. There was a brief series of scheduled flights to LHR last February by Swiss using a Helvetica ERJ190 and a further series is planned for next winter . Other than that I am unaware of any other scheduled operations from Sion by other than small aircraft. Principal civilian users up to now have been executive jets and light g.a.

So far discussion in this forum has been conducted via individual airport threads. The SEN thread has carried a lot of the news and discussion. But recent posts on that thread have prompted me to open this new thread in the hope of attracting a wider audience, hopefully including those with experience of Sion operations.

[DC3 Dave]

This is a heck of a start-up operation. Substantial sums of money would have to change hands before this project could become a reality. Given that it's unlikely that this virtual airline would have assets to secure adequate finance, the individuals involved must have deep pockets or supportive private backers.

I've read a few posts pointing out that Swiss have demonstrated there is a demand for what PowdAir are planning. There is one difference. To Swiss it will just be a route - not for one moment will the flights to Sion be 'make or break' for them.

One last thought. What exactly does an airline, that seems to only exist for the benefit of those partaking in winter sports, do when then snow on the piste melts away?

[ATNotts]

One last thought. What exactly does an airline, that seems to only exist for the benefit of those partaking in winter sports, do when then snow on the piste melts away?

If they were an airline, it would probably mean wet leasing the fleet to an operation that need the capacity in the European summer.

Problem is that they aren't an airline, they will have no AOC and will essentially be a glorified travel agent. I would think they'll have a dickens of a job maintaining cash flow, especially as the winter ski season is so much shorter than the summer sun season - the former, largely governed by when the uplift to the slopes begins and ends, is at best December to April - 5 months. They could easily wind up with 2-3 months of negligible revenue coming in, and lots of staff wages and overheads to pay.

If it were Dragons Den I think I'd be "out" on this venture.

[flight_mode]

Sion is closing between 19th Sept and 30th October for runway resurfacing. Apart from that there’s no big plans.

Aside from the half term Helvetic rotation from LHR and ad-hoc charters Sion see’s very little commercial traffic. Powdair want to base an aircraft there and operate 24 rotations on a 6 day week, that’s a big step for Sion, Powdair and whoever they’ve chosen to operate their schedule – with A319 from a Danish AOC holder apparently (it’s a moving picture). They’ll need to base crews there, put some line MX there and beyond water, coffee and ice cubes there’s no catering facilities either. Imagine the chaos if their 1 busy A319 goes AOG somewhere, especially at SIR itself. Their schedule will go out of the window in a heartbeat with very few service recovery options.

Virtual airline is an emerging business model with little success so far. Citywing at IOM was a VA with Van Air operating the schedule. When they went AOG for non-tech reasons Citywing tried to cover the schedule with a (presumably very expensive) Titan AC. 15 days later after operating a fraction of their schedule they were in liquidation. Deep pockets indeed are required to run the proposed Sion operation.

ATNotts I’m out too.

[Mister Blue Sky]

Interested to know where this virtual airline is based and under which authority it is controlled. If I spend my money booking a flight, is my money protected? If it's controlled under the UK CAA it will have ATOL cover and that is very expensive and the CAA are very particular about who they will allow to sell tickets. There is no mention of an ATOL number on the website so If another authority is ensuring compliance, where are they? Plus who is ensuring all is legit? Sion is a very difficult airport to fly to/from and requires quite specific aircraft as it is Cat C with quite strict weather minima. Any airline flying for a virtual airline will want huge deposits up front to cover DOC's and potential passenger liability claims. Don't think I will be parting with any money in a hurry.

[flight_mode]

Mr. Blue Sky

They are based in Ireland but they don't hold an AOC so aren't under the control of any authority. Regulatory compliance will between whichever AOC holder Powdair do a deal with and their respective local CAA. Assuming Powdair will be acting as a ticketing agent selling flight only tickets on behalf of the AOC holder no ATOL protection is required. ATOL protection is only required if they sell "Flight-Plus" hotel or car rental or if the flight is part of a package tour.

[DC3 Dave]

And lowcostholidays folded last summer with over 100,000 advance bookings. Somehow they operated without ATOL protection in place, and operated with a bond of just 50,000 euros. PowdAir. Caveat Emptor

[Mister Blue Sky]

OK Flight_Mode.

So if it all goes to the great hangar in the sky from where do you claim your money back? The AOC Holder? Surely any AOC holder is not going to take that risk? So reading between the lines Powdair will just be a ticket provider for the AOC holder? All rather worrying in my opinion.

[flight_mode]

No idea MBS. I’m not a consumer law expert but I assume you’ll attempt to recover your money from the party you concluded a contract with. When Powdair’s operational structure is revealed all will become clear. Paying by credit card and insurance covering airline failure is a good idea.

[Tagron]

The Sion weather minima and associated procedures make for interesting reading. To summarise briefly: -
Landing, visibility 5km. Night landings, only RW25 approved.
Take off, visibility 5km, but 1500m if RW25 High Performance Departure used.. RW07 only Standard Departure available
Night departures RW25 only . HP Departure required . RW07 not approved

The reason for the 5km minimum is that the IGS and RNAV approaches are visual from 5.8 miles and the Standard Departures include a visual segment - essentialy an extended racetrack in the valley to gain altitude. The gradient is only 4.8%, so not too demanding. But the High Performance Departure (necessary in lower visibilities and at night) is a straight climb out ahead and requires 13.4%.to 7000feet..

Now consider these minima in the context of an operation claiming to run four rotations per day every day for six days in the middle of winter. . Of course they may be expecting a major pruning of frequencies in the light of actual bookings.

I cannot recall any announcement or mention of the ownership or the names of post holders in this venture. This may not seem important to potential ticket purchasers, but I suspect those connected to the industry would like to have some idea of the experience and technical competence of key players, The only attributable statement I can find is from the Marketing Manager. Have I missed something ?,

[inOban]

I thought that the whole venture was being promoted by the local community, or is my memory playing tricks?

[flight_mode]

Tagron

Powdair Limted was registered in Dublin on 4th April 2017.

2 Directors are:

Simon Rolfe, Poole, Dorset
Tristan Taylor, Bracknell, Berkshire

The company has a total share capital of €1,000,000 made up of 1m shares at €1 each.

1,000 shares have been issued to NT Foundry Limited in the UK. The rest remain unissued.

NT Foundry is solely owned by Tristian Taylor.

Tristan owns Swinley Bike Hub and is a self-styled investor in Sports, Leisure & Tourism Start Up's.

(all the above info is in the public domain, I’m not posting anything that isn’t)

Zoë Ombler said some interesting things to Rhône FM yesterday
http://www.rhonefm.ch/fr/news/site//les-billets-de-la-compagnie-aerienne-powdair-en-vente-des-le-6-juin-838912 (http://www.rhonefm.ch/fr/news/site/les-billets-de-la-compagnie-aerienne-powdair-en-vente-des-le-6-juin-838912)

Summary:

Tickets go on sale on June 6th
Ticket price “fixed” at £140 each way inc. ski equipment
Hope to carry 63,000 PAX between mid-December and mid-April
If all goes well they’ll operate a reduced summer timetable
Project is a long term

[2Planks]

From a skiers point of view, I am struggling to understand the business model. The majority of ski accommodation is let weekly, mostly Sat-Sat (some Sun-Sun). Powdair indicate they are flying 6 days a week with one ac, so for 4 days they are looking at short break holiday makers (which to be fair tend to be at the high end of the market) and second home owners. Looking at some of the destinations I can't see a high density of second home owners in a limited area of Switzerland.


When you look at other ski regions, airports such as Chambéry and Grenoble are deserted Mon-Fri. Likewise most skiers are aware of airports with poor minimas and don't like the risk, even Jet2 abandoned CMF for last season.


I'm probably out as well!

[flight_mode]

The latest news from Powdair is here The powdair News (http://mailchi.mp/9eec246c4b46/the-powdair-news-162599)

Interesting to note they are going to be operating 2 aircraft from Sion, not 1 as previously announced.

[Tagron]

There was no way they could have operated the proposed schedule using only one aircraft. Four rotations per day to the UK could not have worked due to the restricted opening hours of Sion airport. That's before even considering the need for some schedule padding to take account of the various minor delays that typically may occur in day to day airline operations. And of course the weather and minima factor.

Plus, with a u/s aircraft, what would be their chances of obtaining a short notice substitute with a Sion qualified crew ? Quite likely any replacement would have to use Bern,. Basel or Geneva.

[Tagron]

Small cog

Thanks for your observations on Sion IFR operations. Its good to hear from someone with practical experience of the issues

I was thinking of the situation where a pilot would need to obtain the basic qualification quickly. It does appear to be still self briefing but it is not clear to me how instantaneous would be the response.. The present limits appear to be 8km/8000ft in this case. I don't know if this represents a change compared with 2013.

And perhaps I should have said "aircraft and crew" because it seems to me the operator still needs to have approval too, so any operator called in to carry out short notice service cover would need to have organised the necessary approvals in advance.

[Jetscream 32]

wow...big bunch of naysayers on here...my 2 penny:

1. Money will be protected if they have a decent res system as with any start up airline the acquiring bank / PSP will normally require 100% retention until coupon / ticket flown. ie if they go belly up you get your money back.
ATOL is only for flights and accommodation - not seat only flights - this is same for 90% of EU carriers - your not protected! and actually in a worse position with a bigger well established carrier as their retention may be negligible.
2. Trying to tar a 16 week operator with the same brush as CityWing in IOM is a tad unfair as they operated thin routes with a dodgy eastern bloc operator on a Cat B AOC - not quite the same as operating 20-500 seats depending on type they go for from a fully IOSA EASA AOC operator!
3. There appears to be a valid smokescreen to ensure contracts and operators are in place with the right aircraft and the right frequency for the airports and routes, without the media and everyone picking holes in it before its done.
4. If you looked at the CAA stats for GVA from December to April, I think I'd actually do the same - Valais after all is one of the major and highest destinations of all ski resorts with 6 "super resorts" with guaranteed snow due to altitude.
5. Have you actually thought they might be actually operating virtual for this season whilst their application is submitted for next season, eminently sensible from where im sitting!
6. Virtual carrier with correct contracts, pay deposits for aircraft for the contract period which looks like Dec 14th to April 16th - pay the operating costs, and sell the seats.
7. They walk away on April 17th with not a care in the world about the aircraft and no liability as the a/c would already next day switch to routes planned and scheduled later this year.
8. Operating into SIR often as i do and with RNPAR 0.1 it offers much better minimas and to be honest they will only have 10 days a season in winter they are closed, it is not just a Sion problem - typically those days affect most of Switzerland so the divs will either be Bern or Basle - we div daily in our operating lives and this is not a real drama.
9. My bet is a couple of E170/190 will be operating - these are the perfect a/c for Sion.

[atakacs]

Well I would certainly welcome a regular service out of Sion but I really wonder about the reported plans (ie. I find them very ambitious). But I really wish them well !

As for Airport qualification B I read "To achieve this authorisation, the pilot must successfully complete the training, either on the aircraft or in an approved simulator (https://www.sion-qualification.ch/airport-briefing/)". Not sure this can be achieved overnight...

[atakacs]

But you can also operate into Sion by completing the online self briefing. By cat B in my early post I was referring to airfield ops as in Cat A, B, C, not the local named type of qualification.

Interesting. Would you have any specifics about this "self briefing" procedure (ie. links) ?

[atakacs]

You provided a link yourself in an earlier post.

Now you got me confused - where does it mention on said page that one can get Type B Qualification by self qualification ?

Or are we speaking of two different things ?

[atakacs]

Ok. I muss admit that I have zero IFR competency but as far as I understand the airport site with respect of this discussion I'm not sure a commercial operator could just pick up any crew and perform IFR service to/from Sion simply with the guys/gals claiming to have been self briefed.

[atakacs]

I would say that it is possible to operate commercially within the Sion Type A authorization and procedure limitations for most of the year - and that also means during daylight only.

In my view there are far more challenging airfields within Europe.

Thanks for the clarification. A fair point.

[DC3 Dave]

Tickets should have been available on 6th June. Now saying 13th June.

13th June. Tickets on sale now!

[flight_mode]

Operating with an Embraer 170 with 76Y or 190 with 106Y. No mention of the operator thus far.... which they should be publishing. They're using POW as thier IATA designator even though it doesn't officially exist.

[stewyb]

Powdair suggest one E170 although looking at the timetable they will surely require 2 planes as departures leave almost simultaneously from different airports?!

[Jetscream 32]

All of the info I can see is indicating they will be operating under their own AOC or that of an ACMI operator, looking at the timeline ie first flight in December then their is plenty of time for them to get their house in order, as I'm sure they already have...

I do struggle sometimes why this information has to be so public to satisfy media / spectators needs - being a regular visitor to Sion all of the talk is its a 2 ship operation.

Calm down and stop being so pessimistic....

FlightMode - clearly you must be Swiss driver or crew.... bit of local competition never hurt anyone..

[flight_mode]

FlightMode - clearly you must be Swiss driver or crew.... bit of local competition never hurt anyone..

They present somewhere near zero threat to Swiss. I'm sure Swiss will welcome someone else validating the Sion market. :}

[Jetscream 32]

poor Sion wont know whats hit them...... 0 to 50,000+ pax in first season.... but its very little new traffic i'd say - just existing traffic that will breathe a sigh of relief at not doing the transfer.... no worries re the market being strong enough and as Swiss are only doing the Saturday from LHR for Jan & Feb currently its not likely to be anything but good news for the region.. blue skies!

[Takeoff53]

Powdair is very doubtful:

In the booking matrix POW plus a flight number is shown; but POW belongs to another company. Powdair claims to be an Airline but there is no AOC and no airplanes. You may book flights (and pay...) but you will not find a company address or a phone number or a VAT identifikation number on the whole webpage, no impressum. Where is the money going? Beginning of March they claimed to switch from a F100 to an A319 "due to high demand" and today the possible airplane presented, is an E170? Do you dare to book tickets?

[Jetscream 32]

TO53

nothing like a bit of scaremongering is there.... there is no way in the world WorldTicket who are the reservations host would allow powdair to have any of the money from bookings, the airline industry does not work like that.. the acquiring banks or psp would certainly without fail have a retention on any new start up.

As a Sion regular I can assure you there is more than sufficient confidence here in the Valais that the airline is bona-fida and will be launching with E170.

Im intrigued as to how you think airlines start in the beginning... maybe you think all airlines start with a whole fleet from day 1 and that there is a law that says you must declare all business information in advance to anyone and everyone.... to me I think they are being quite clever and ensuring they have a chance of survival especially in such a difficult market. niche airlines only have the advantage until a competitor rocks up!

[davidjohnson6]

If Powdair won't get any ticket revenue until flights operate, who is providing the company's working capital ?
It must be someone with rather deep pockets and a willingness to take on some big risks !

[DC3 Dave]

To me, the truth lies somewhere between the views expressed by Takeoff53 and Jetscream 32.

I do think though, given the scale of their ambition, they would surely have rock solid ACMI arrangements in place by now. Isn't flying people the core of their business? And is the ACMI operator willing to share the risk in this venture - no need to answer that. So as davidjohnson6 points out they must have access to considerable funds. Perhaps they have.

[davidjohnson6]

I don't know that much about the wet lease market, but I hope someone can help give some info.

Powdair presumably have an ACMI operator lined up by now - either with contracts signed or they are close to signing. I'm guessing the contract will have different levels of penalties to be paid by either side in the event that they wish to break - cancel the contract 6 months in advance and the pain is not too bad but cancel a month in advance and the monetary loss is large.

Of course everything is negotiable but at what point would Powdair have to make a go/no-go decision on this venture without losing all the money to charter the aircraft ? I'm wondering whay happens if ticket sales are lousy and whether Powdair can cancel maybe in October without too much financial pain

[DC3 Dave]

Of course everything is negotiable but at what point would Powdair have to make a go/no-go decision on this venture without losing all the money to charter the aircraft ? I'm wondering whay happens if ticket sales are lousy and whether Powdair can cancel maybe in October without too much financial pain

And there you may have hit a nail squarely on the head. Until they sign contracts what penalties are there?

[flight_mode]

Some insight into Powdair in todays Indie

Dublin-based Powdair raising €4.5m for its ski season takeoff - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/dublinbased-powdair-raising-45m-for-its-ski-season-takeoff-35852393.html)

[davidjohnson6]

So they haven't actually yet raised the cash they need to run the flights ?

[atakacs]

Hmm to be honest it doesn't sound good. And they will need a lot more than 4mn to pull this one off IMHO (assuming they keep their clients funds segregated until such time they would fly).

The more I hear about this venture the more doubts I have... Wish them well but I will definitely not give them my CC anytime soon.

[Jetscream 32]

Ok, so I just read the article as well - doing a fund raise for their own AOC is entirely different to being just a virtual / ticket agent on contract for a specific aircraft. And the article is saying just that... they are doing a fund raise... they are not saying they HAVE to do a fund raise in order to achieve anything, they are saying they are fundraising to control their own destiny by the sounds of things.

By all accounts from the rumour mill in Valais is that powdair have been given the run around by a certain Swiss operator who offered to fly for them and by the sounds of things will not have actual aircraft they promised in time... which is a bit naughty! I'm sure they never set out on that basis - but by the sound sof things another operator is already in the breech ready and willing to supply, but I get the impression they are taking matters into their own hands to secure the investment they have already put in in order to be able to operate themselves.

Also to be clear I for one know one of the directors at WT and he assured me, not a penny is released to pw until the ticket has flown, so I really dont thinks is a major worry.

Starting an airline trying to start in this business and being under this much scrutiny is never easy - he says looking a departure board in a terminal with delayed and cancelled all over it for some reason!

[flight_mode]

I don't think the fund raising is exclusively for the AOC “project” but also to start operations in general. It’s fair to say that any potential investors (and the operator) will want to see some hard demand numbers and not the echo chamber market research PowerPoints. I suspect that’s why the booking system is up and running now to do just that. Some people here may not like it, but it’s SOP for start-ups to sell things they don’t actually have in order to gauge demand and build investor confidence.

atakacs And they will need a lot more than 4mnTrue, but funding will be staggered in rounds, round 1 being the 4 mil.

JS32 certain Swiss operator Yep, You heard it in the mountains, I heard the same down in the city

[DC3 Dave]

4.5 million may make me salivate, but it's peanuts in aviation business terms. If they prove credible people with a sound business plan, and ticket sales are strong, raising that sort of finance should be easy enough.

[flight_mode]

The fundamental question to any potential investor will be “what am I investing in?”

They don’t have a unique product, they don’t have an established brand, they don’t have any assets on their balance sheet. So what are they investing in? a website and a slick marketing campaign does not a 4.5m investment make.

Any institutional investor will conclude that they could replicate the whole business model overnight and own 100% of the company - it is after all a ticketing website and a plan. In fact, there’s even the danger that AOC operators themselves could just do it, and why not they are anyway accepting most of the operation risk.

Then there’s the small issue of the industry itself. Notoriously cost driven, price sensitive customers, highly capital intensive, massive cash flow requirements compounded by not getting paid until the ticket is ‘delivered’. Then there’s the competition. Easy are down the road in GVA and Swiss are over in ZRH with everything in place including a European network, Helvetic EJs and Sion qualified crew that could easily lay on a connecting flight in the late afternoon and open up Sion to 10+ destinations with a sub 1 hour connection. Oh, and it doesn’t snow all year either! I could go on, but you get my point.

Out of interest I looked at easy from SEN to GVA next Feb half term week. Ticket, seat, hold bag and ski’s came to £155. POW double.

Their market research is also flawed. Ask any skier if they’d like to land 30 minutes from the slopes and of course they’ll say yes. Ask them if they’ll pay double to save 1.5hr against a GVA transfer will they still say yes?

They might raise the cash, but it won’t be from institutions or HNWI’s it will be from those who don’t know what they’re buying.

Sorry JS32, I know you’re going to press your nay-sayer button again :}

[Jetscream 32]

Hey FM - sorry old chum, but cant say i disagree with much that you are saying, however your comment is very general and sweeping rather than defined, so the only thing I'd say is....... you have to start somewhere and they have a huge amount of support in the Valais so it is going to translate into something, so all we can all do is let the story play out.

Either it will be a small success and survive or it wont, but hat tip to them for at least trying and seemingly making progress to at least get to the start line.. It wont be easy thats for sure, but thats not a guaranteed reason for it to fail.

now wheres that button!! :)

[flight_mode]

:ok: Nice JS.

I generalised on purpose. Regarding the support from the Valais I agree there's excitement but thats not where their potential PAX are. Some yes, but the majority no.

Now, who's gonna be the AOC?

[Jetscream 32]

No the outbound are defo from Lausanne and Vaud - who in their right mind would turn left from there and go to GVA - some of the locals I know from Valais view GVA as a different country..:} I can tell you the AOC they will not be on :uhoh:

I understand pow are in Valais all next week - I'll be in / out on Mon & Thurs I think so far... I'll have a chat with Michel at Allpark and see what the scoop is :ok:

[flight_mode]

I can tell you the AOC they will not be on :uhoh:
:ok:

I'll take 1033 and 1006 off the table. Are you taking PE off?

[Jetscream 32]

:p I'd say they are prime... but no idea where the second a/c will come from - but there are plenty of 190's around so either that or if they get their own AOC in time then happy days..

[Jetscream 32]

Wasn't 1039 trying to do something replacing the Do328's - but not seen or heard anything - beside's MI will probably need a bypass to get a sense of humour before that airline could do anything radical like working with a start-up...

[flight_mode]

1039 + pow? :eek: MI wouldn't even accept AMEX cards up until recently! Didn't MI and those on the warmer side of the hills nearly get into fisty cuffs over the Saab?

[Tagron]

1039 + pow ? Powdair flights now for sale on the Skywork website with SX flight codes !

[DC3 Dave]

So no jetliner.

[Expressflight]

There have been reports on ch-aviation that SkyWork are in negotiations with Embraer concerning fleet their renewal plans.

[Jetscream 32]

Im here in Sion now and just spoke to pow who are here also - the SX flights are not powdairs as there is no agreement signed by all accounts - SX appears to be doing something underhand based on their early negotiations with pow, but pow just indicated that the Ejets SX were going to get and still might - have not been confirmed to be on their AOC in time - ex Saudi from AerFin ... pow are not happy.. but not bothered either as they have got another operator it seems! Have to say - decent bunch of people and seem to know their drills - so im not going to be too controversial now as they know my name and face.... :}

[Tagron]

Yes, and on closer inspection they are Powdair routes but not Powdair frequencies and timings.

To summarise, Skywork are offering all the Powdair destinations except Manchester and Edinburgh, and with reduced frequencies on the remainder: - ANR (2), HAM (2), BRS (1), LTN (2), SEN (2), SOU (1). Some of the days clash but the timings appear not to, though I have only looked at a couple.

[flight_mode]

SX's actions are controversial to say the least :=

[Takeoff53]

The slot-situation is controversal. In a Travelnews-articel it is stated that POW has the slots to operate to and from the slot-controlled airports (as far as I know LTN, HAM and MAN within the flights offered by POW?). But POW is not an Airline and will not be able to apply for slots themself and, I assume, SX will not sell the flights without having the slots?

[01475]

Strange choice for SX. Reputationally the risk may only be small (but still real and unnecessary). However they are an airline that's previously shown they can't do UK marketing. Surely the only way they could do routes like this (with likely no outband pax from Sion at all) would be as a FlyBe franchise?

[Tagron]

Although the SkyWork Sion destinations appear on the drop down menu there is no announcement of these new routes on their website - or anywhere else for that matter so far as I can see..

They certainly appear to be bookable, though I am not going to waste my time going through the motions of a trial booking. Prices appear to be £25-35 cheaper than the lowest Powdair fare, but Powdair allow free skis and snowboards whereas SX charge £48 for sporting equipment.

[flight_mode]

What are they doing launching routes with no announcements in the press, on their site or from destination airports? Despite JS32's latest info from Sion I wonder if there is an agreement, perhaps still in the making between POW and SX. If not, I'm lost as to what SX are up to.

[flight_mode]

From travelnews.ch
Max Ungricht, Skywork's press spokesman, explains: "There is no contractual relationship with Powdair. By connecting the routes from Sion, Skywork is exploring the market. Skywork CEO Martin Inabnit, also contacted by Travelnews.ch, also said: "As Powdair does not have an AOC, it is a classic ACMI deal [a wet-lease, editors note.] and not at all possible. In addition, Powdair is required to publish the operating carrier in accordance with applicable law, if there was one. But there is not Skywork.So Skywork are going it alone on POWs routes, calling them out publically for not publishing the operating carrier on booking and saying an ACMI deal is "gar nicht möglich".

Ouch! I bet POW are miffed.

Updated with Powdair statement:
"I can confirm that Powdair and Skywork are in negotiations," Clarifies Stewart, but explains “nothing is agreed yet and we are in negotiation with several partners. Regarding the intrusion of flights by Skywork we knew nothing. Possibly, this is a negotiating tactic" According to him, the flight times and slots were secured for Powdair, contrary to what Skywork claimed.

[Expressflight]

I've just received a regular SkyWork e-mail update headed "Winter schedule details now available!" and there's no mention of Sion flights. No timetable is available when you select Sion from a linked drop down list of destinations.

[DC3 Dave]

I have absolutely nothing new to add, but I think it's fair to say that if the relationship between the two parties is as toxic as it appears, it's unlikely to end well.

[atakacs]

I muss say this is getting weirder by the day...

[davidjohnson6]

I wonder what the people running Sion airport and the Valais cantonal Govt think of all of this...

[flight_mode]

At this rate they'll be planning a second terminal and a name change to Sion International :}

[atakacs]

At this rate they'll be planning a second terminal and a name change to Sion International :}

Indeed! Long live the 380 in Sion international 😂

[Jetscream 32]

By the sounds of things here in Sion MI / SX will regret their silly actions against pow..

[View from a hill]

Some commentary on the PowdAir commercial scenario.

It is challenging because of:

- the directional nature of demand (assuming little outbound demand from SION)
- the single market sector
- the flight dates not matching HOTAC availability in peak periods
- the potential for aggressive DOW pricing competition from OCs.

As a skier, I’m impressed by their marketing communications & see PowdAir as doing all they can to raise 'Destination Sion' awareness & create early demand & market buzz. I suspect most customers won’t be thinking about the operational / commercial elements raised in this thread. The airline hasn’t helped itself by publicly flip-flopping on their Ops plans nor by having their initial selling dates slip but once again most customers won’t be aware or care.... & it is normal in a pre-launch period that these issues crop up. Sion airport or the local authority may have put up a launch fund and I suspect they will be happy with the marketing comms to-date.

Re: Weather concerns - most skiers understand it goes with the territory (sorry) & higher-end i.e. less price-sensitive skiers will like the PowdAir / Sion proposition in the way its being presented with fixed fares, quick transfers, skis included, season-pass FF discount & overall niche, simple style. However, are there enough of this sub-set of customers across the listed catchment areas to achieve the (assumed) high SF needed to break-even on an ACMI deal? Difficult.

Another issue is lack of distribution. Are WT supporting GDS connectivity or any ticketing outside of the direct website booking engine? Is the strategy 100% B2C? There is no travel agent’s portal currently. The airline offers transfers * which is a pragmatic customer service & allows for extra revenue generation but overall I foresee PowdAir having to be much more sophisticated with both their Pricing & distribution. There are many good reasons why airlines have layered fare levels, multiple booking classes & significant resources focused on revenue, yield & channel management. One size does not fit all.

Lastly, I do not understand the ‘own-AOC’ announcement. Their entire proposition only works when focused on the ski season so apart from a whole raft of financial and operational requirements & responsibilities - what benefits does an AOC bring?

* Not sure as I write of the ATOL requirements when selling 2 components (albeit separately)?

[Jetscream 32]

VFAH,

Some interesting commentary, and very valid - my only point from a position of knowledge here in Sion is the outbound market to UK is very compelling I can assure you especially for those residents of Lausanne / Montreux, Vaud etc - have you ever done the route from here to Geneva in normal daytime traffic or even peak travel times - year round... its uuuurrrggghhhhhhhh!! Yuk!

Hotac is changing rapidly here in the Valais to much more of an AirBnB type scenario, so the whole TO saturday to saturday is not really valid anymore!

I raised the GDS / TO distributrion question to them this week as they were here, sounds like GDS will be fully installed by end of July... I wont repeat what he said to me re the AOC but they are not just planning a winter schedule, and re your ATOL question they are Irish so ATOL is nothing to do with them..

I think most people her ethough are of the opinion that Swiss will just let them start and run for a full season then muscle in? But hey who knows - Brexit and open skies may put paid to all of that :}:}

[flight_mode]

I think most people her ethough are of the opinion that Swiss will just let them start and run for a full season then muscle in? But hey who knows - Brexit and open skies may put paid to all of that :}:}

It could already be crowded if SX are there too! I'm sure Swiss are watching carefully but if they weigh in it would unlikely to to any PowdAir destinations. If SX are really on the war path then three's a crowd and Swiss will get the popcorn :}.

[Jetscream 32]

:} SX on a war path....haha
From all the rumours here I think they need to focus on trying to stay alive...Clearly not the most dynamic and forward thinking of regional airlines, but bizarre behavior all the same.... still "now't queer as folk" as they say!

[View from a hill]

JS32

Thanks for those insights, if there is some local, outbound demand then that is a bonus and again if there is plenty of ad hoc accommodation available in the Valais that too removes that issue.

I wish them well so lets see what happens in the next weeks/ months re aircraft, AOC, competition & distribution.

[davidjohnson6]

Jetscream - every time I've travelled between anywhere like Lausanne or Vevey and Geneva airport, I've always taken the train. Apart from the occasional minor delay, it has always worked extremely well
Train fares for non Swiss residents are not particularly cheap (the half fare card for local residents seems a bargain to me), but without Geneva's economies of scale, I doubt Sion is going to be linked with ultra cheap air fares

Could you tell us a little more about why you think there will be demand from people based near Sion to use this service ?

[Jetscream 32]

Hey David,

Absolutely no issues with the trains in Switzerland, powdair have only been targeting the inbound UK to launch to date it seems, but the amount of locals that are super excited especially for short stays outbound to EDI seems to be going viral here. They all want whiskey tours....:D With any airline schedule the magic sauce sits in the frequency and timings - it certainly seems in talking to powdair when I've wondered over the other side to the terminal and talking to some influencers here in Sion that there is a slightly bigger picture than what I think is visible in public domain right now.

Rumours here that they signed a new hire on Friday that I think will improve their chances if its true! Its certainly the talk of the town here so will be an interesting one to watch for sure.

I will caveat everything I am saying mind you with the normal tunes etc, as our flight office is the other side of the airport on the TAG side :E

[CabinCrewe]

Is that the 4th potential operator for Powdair now (Denmarks BackBone wet lease using a CRJ200) ?
This sounds weird, when Airbuses and F100s were first mooted

[Jetscream 32]

From the ear to the ground here at SIR

Apparently the F100's were never in contention and this was a rumour that got out of control.... sounds familiar! The airbus from Atlantic was a good option but thats a big beast for here on a daily service and tbh - think it was too big and actually sensible they didnt do anything with it.. Then they tried to deal with Skyworks...that clearly didnt work out but by the sounds of things a pair of CRJ 200's will probably be ok as long as too many people dont want to carry their ski's :}. After all its only a stretched biz jet and we have lots and lots of those in here!
At least its still alive and making progress, which for a start up is positive in any light!

[Takeoff53]

Well, the F100's have been promoted by Powdair including the name of the operator and with statements towards the press "the pilots are starting training soon...".
Then the A319 came into play with the memorable remark that Powdair switched to the bus "due to huge demand....". Then the E170 appeared nicley branded, with the information, "two of them will be used". The next step was an E170 plus an E190, those two aircraft should operated on the different routes "based on demand". And now back to a 50-seater "due to huge demand....???" operated by a Danish Company with, I guess, not much experience with such an Operation? Weird!
Is the CRJ capable to fly the steep Approach?

[atakacs]

I was under the impression that one of the USP was the free transportation of the ski equipment? Not an easy proposition with the CRJ me thinks

[tws123]

Skywork still selling tickets I see.

[Takeoff53]

Anyone here with some experience on the CRJ200? How about flying from ANR with the short RWY to SIR? Steep APPR 6° in SIR? Naviagation capability to fly this APPR in SIR?

[Jetscream 32]

Anyone here with some experience on the CRJ200? How about flying from ANR with the short RWY to SIR? Steep APPR 6° in SIR? Naviagation capability to fly this APPR in SIR?

Yep there's no problem with it as the a/c is only a stretched challenger - the approach is only steep to 7nm then flattens out to standard 3 degrees with a jink around the rock, not much of an issue tbh..

and as for the change in a/c - as said before my understanding is the F100 was never in contention due to performance, Atlantics airbus was a good offer but the timing I don't think worked, the E170's I know they would desperately love but again my understanding is that Skywork moved the goal posts, so I think they've taken the CRJ 200's out of desperation more than choice - there really isn't that many 70-100 ACMI aircraft around for Europe that I can see

[Takeoff53]

It's as far as I understand not only the aerodynamic capability (you must be able to keep the speed in APPR CONFIG) the a/c needs one Little button to supress parts of EGPWS.


And interesetingly, HAM disappeard from the booking tool of Powdair. Soon we will hear "due to the huge demand for other destinations, we have to concentrate our ressources".

[Jetscream 32]

Well I can assure you from experience that new routes are not a guarantee when announced - if they cull routes now, then it's a better move than going bust trying to offer lower priced seats for a perceived market that is not there.. better to concentrate on routes that do work than those that don't - take Wow Air dropping the cork winter route yesterday after only operating since May - there is no guarantee of passengers when a route is announced, all you can do is hope and pray that the data you've been given is somewhere near what's going to happen - however if you have a magic wand / crystal ball then offer them advice directly - I'm sure you'd make a lot of money with airline start ups with guaranteed route knowledge demand

[Jetscream 32]

Maybe the A380 or possibly a C208B??

Rumours here are 4 a/c for the winter program flying a mix of regionals and city pairs.... 2 x CRJ 200 and 2 x something else

[DC3 Dave]

Did you mean A380? Is All Fools' Day celebrated on different days throughout Europe?

[Takeoff53]

@J32
What do you mean with "a mix of regionals and city pairs"? Will the destination portfolio even grow? 4 aircraft for 7 the destinations left....

[Jetscream 32]

It seems their plan for SIR is quite canny, but it's only rumour as I'm not sure anyone has seen anything else other than the backbone agreement to date, but there was a flurry of activity last week and more planned after 21st this month with workshops again in the terminal here - and their actual main launch event is in September so I'd assume they are preparing for that and might announce other stuff too - but pure speculation at this point !

[Takeoff53]

"...anyone has seen anything else other than the backbone Agreement..."


Did you see this Agreement? I guess if any agreement/contract really existst it will be internal....
The last information concerning 4 a/c flying and a second carrier shall be involved is even more doubtful. Until today no sign on the website who will be the operating carrier.

[fjencl]

Maybe backbone will be supplying the 2 crj200 as well as the Other 2 when we fInd out in due course what the aircraft will be. Can you imagine how much space will be needed in the holds for 50 lots of skiis as well as checked baggage and cabin baggage. Hopefully the crj200 will have plenty space.

[Takeoff53]

As HAM is not on the booking tool anymore, ANR is the last remaining destination on the continent. However, I guess a CRJ200 will not be able to make it fully loaded with this short runway? And is EDI too far away for the CRJ200?
One argument for the CRJ200 will count: The financial costs are very low. But this cannot help in the project as long as the a/c is not able to fly all routes with a full Pax load.

[Jetscream 32]

I know the airport director and she has confirmed it.... Maybe they are quite busy and by the sounds of things from people that do look after fare filing etc the back end of all res systems are a work of art... still im sure they will get there... Having run the perf for the CRJ 200 based on the sector length to here from ANR then it will be tight but within limits.

[Tagron]

Powdair have just announced year round flights from Sion to Zurich, London City, and Antwerp. 3 per day to ZRH and up to 2 per day to LCY. These are in addition to the winter ski programme, which has been changed slightly by the dropping of Edinburgh and Hamburg and increase in frequencies on other routes apparently due to demand.

In addition to the CRJ200 from Backbone they will have two Saab 2000s from Adria Switzerland. I wonder what Skywork will make of this and the potential impact on their Bern-LCY route.

This link is via the Sion airport website
:Sion: Powdair va étendre son offre et proposer des vols (http://www.lenouvelliste.ch/articles/valais/valais-central/sion-powdair-va-etendre-son-offre-et-proposer-des-vols-reguliers-vers-london-city-et-zurich-697007)

[Takeoff53]

54'750 seats (3 times daily x 50 seats x 365 days) SIR-ZRH-SIR per year. Who on earth belives this seats will be sold to a reasonable SLF with the necessary yield?

[01475]

*raises eyebrows*.

With SkyWork as well, Sion is where it's at. Apparently.

Will (or would) 11 flights in a day be a new record for Sion?

[Jetscream 32]

If you add in the rest of the schedule for the winter its 18 a day, poor little terminal wont know whats hit it and no doubt we will start to see a few jacked off corporates, who are used to free reign here with no delays at all - we are all used to to rock up, door up, spool up, and bugger off sharpish....however GVA is at capacity and the region here has a lot of potential for sure!

[flight_mode]

3 per day to ZRH

That's just madness.

[atakacs]

My initial thoughts too...

I sincerely hope they prove me wrong but I would be really, really surprised.

[Jetscream 32]

Why madness?
Train from GVA to Zurich 3 hrs
Train from Lausanne to Zurich 2:15

Swiss Fly a mix of CS100 and A321 to ZRH 9 times a day from GVA, and that will be a mix of long haul connection and city traffic.

They don't do it for the fun of it and I'm pretty sure that the local market of GVA is not the main driver of the capacity available.

Taking 150 of the 1500 available seats by air plus the capacity of 16 trains a day between the two cities is telling that the route is very very busy, add in that the Valais has a population of greater than 350,000 - ie on a par with Bristol and bigger than Cardiff, then add in the roads getting into GVA in the morning - think M25, and it may not be such a mad idea? I know from experience I'd rather turn right out of Lausanne or Montreux in the morning to take a flight than turn left and head to GVA.

However time will tell

[Tagron]

Out of curiosity I took a look at the SkyWork website to see the latest state of play there.

The dropdown booking menu still offers the same Sion flights in parallel with the Powdair services. I did not attempt a trial booking. But there is still no other mention or publicity of Sion flights on the website. The Information page which summarises the SkyWork winter program and shows a route map makes no mention of Sion services.

But follow another menu on that page to interrogate Sion routes and it produces the message : Für diesen Zeitraum bieten wir für die gewählte Destination keine Flüge an.

So nothing happening there then. Was it all a bluff, or were they positioning themselves to take over if Powdair failed to deliver ?

[2Planks]

J32


I understand the IFR approach is complex and the minima are high, can you give an idea of how many days a year that the Sion would be shut for periods longer than a morning and what the likely div would be? thanks

[Jetscream 32]

Hey 2P,

We lose about 10 days per winter season, and they are always well known in advance, and when I spoke to them it was either Bern or Basle as the Div with Buchard doing the transfers - its certainly not a weekly thing, but nearly always between the 6-8th Feb one of those has been shut for the last 4 years, then off days or afternoons depending on snow / fog etc..... but like the rest of the world.. who knows anymore - sometimes we have all 4 seasons in a single day!

[2Planks]

Thanks for that, having a discussion on a skiing forum, comparing Chambery with Sion. He said that weather at Sion was much better, pretty similar effects on aviation I would say!

[Jetscream 32]

Chambery has the lake, and that changes everything! - my understanding is that they have far more days of diversions which is why Jet2 now goes into Grenoble instead

[Jetscream 32]

Hey 2P,

so I just looked through the logs, and we were SNOCLO / Snow Closed on 8th Jan, a bit crappy on 10th Jan, then snow closed again on 13/14th Jan, fogged out on the 24th Jan, it was rubbish again on 5th Feb, 8th Feb and 29th Feb and 6th March - and we've been ok since, the only thing I would say is that I know the snow clearing will be a much higher priority for scheduled commercial ops - so the amount of days closed could be reduced to 6-8 easily as the airport will be making sure that ops will not be affected as it will hurt them as well if they are slow to clear the ramp and runway.

[2Planks]

J32, Thanks again, Chambery seems to have a couple of Saturdays when it turns pair shaped each season, Sundays are not too bad as they are not at capacity and can catch up. A couple of seasons ago Jet2 incurred a lot of costs and so managed to grab some more slots at Grenoble for last year. I think the skiing public have also worked out that another 30 mins on a bus is a good trade off for a flight that has a much better chance of arriving so have stopped screaming for Chambery flights.

[LGS6753]

Powdair are running a series of open days in conjunction with ski equipment retailer Ellis Brigham to promote their airline.

[Jetscream 32]

Seems sensible especially as they are trying to appeal to that market

[DC3 Dave]

3 months to go now. Can anyone confirm everything's now in place for this venture to get underway on the 14th December?

[atakacs]

Just looked into the ZHR flights... About 200€ per leg. 3x per day... Something doesn't compute.

[VickersVicount]

Presumably meaning Zurich (ZRH) ?

[Jetscream 32]

Tell me what doesn't compute - Swiss operating 9 rotations a day with either CS1 or A320 plus 18 trains a day from GVA to ZRH - thats a lotttttt a people on shuttling backwards and forwards and I bet they all don't live in GVA city!

Im not sure its rocket science to find 300 people a day from within the Valais that will see the convenience especially if then departing long haul via Swiss!

[virginblue]

So why has nobody come up with that brilliant idea in the past 35 years, particularly in the days when regional flying was, unlike in 2017, in its heyday? Sion - ZRH is 2h45m, Sion - GVA is 2h on the train with two trains per hour. I don't really see how flights can work with that kind of competition.

[01475]

Strange Darwin has had such a difficult journey when regional flying in Switzerland is apparently The Thing!

[atakacs]

Im not sure its rocket science to find 300 people a day from within the Valais that will see the convenience especially if then departing long haul via Swiss!

At that price point (that's where I have an issue) ? Haven't done a comprehensive survey but 200€ / leg seems very expensive.

[Takeoff53]

Very pink coloured glasses are needed to believe, that SIR-ZRH 54'000+ returns (total offered seast, three times daily) or 36'000+ (totakl ofered seats, two times daily) returns to LCY will find a market.

Heard that the discussions with Darwin/Adria Switzerland are stalled, required deposits are not granted to operate the two routes to ZRH and LCY.

None of the travel agencies at Sion are participating or have even been aproached by Powdair to get into business together for the outbound tickets.

Never seen a (mock) airline, taking the expectations that high but it's as well scary to see, how many believers are following the (possible) fairy tales. In the meanwhile, the flights are in the GDS under W2 FlexFlight.

[atakacs]

Very pink coloured glasses are needed to believe, that SIR-ZRH 54'000+ returns (total offered seast, three times daily) or 36'000+ (totakl ofered seats, two times daily) returns to LCY will find a market.

As always pricing is also part of the equation - at, say, CHF 100 roundtrip I for one would definitely consider SIR-ZRH - not at 500 !

I guess we will soon know...

[flight_mode]

SIR-ZRH requires very pink glasses indeed! As atakacs say’s it depends on pricing. I don’t think for 1 minute they’ll get anywhere near CHF100 round trip – especially on a 50 seater! ZRH is a very expensive airport to operate in/out of and it’s slot constrained at peak times so you can’t just drop in morning, noon and evening.

In other news I heard that Powdair have taken a financial stake in their AOC partner BackBone Aviation. They’ve also hired Sean Pettit of Virgin and Fastjet fame as CFO.

[Takeoff53]

After ringing the big bell for SIR-ZRH 3 times daily, the flights disappeared from the booking site without a single word. And as usual, nobody is questioning whats ongoing.

I guess Powdair could announce flights to the mooon and this will go through the press as the best thing the world has ever seen.

Anyone dares to bet a good bottle of Champagne? I claim the deal with Darwin to operate the LCY route will never take place.

[atakacs]

Does anyone here have a booking with them? Know of someone having a booking?

[Takeoff53]

It is still possible to book SIR-LCY-SIR at the Powdair website and the flights are shown under the airline code F7. However, the slot request at LCY for those flights was withdrawn. I made a trial booking (of course without the payment!) and got a quote for the return at GBP 443.62; not a bargain.:=

One other point I never considered but going thru the booking process, I realized that the site is available in English only. This shows either stupidity or arrogance. Just expecting that every single customer in the Valais speaks English is not a good sign of understanding the market and the people in the catchment area. And focussing on incoming only would be dumb too! :confused:

[DC3 Dave]

2 months to go now. Can anyone confirm everything's now in place for this venture to get underway on the 14th December?

[Takeoff53]

@DC3 Dave: Best would be you ask this as an open question on Powdair's face book site....

[01475]

This all reminds me of that airline that was supposed to fly from Southend to ¿Paderborn? and ¿Croatia?.

It's alarming that in a supposedly regulated industry this can slip through the cracks. I'd suggest there needs to be legislation to the effect that only an airline or a bonded tour operator can sell aeroplane tickets.

[DC3 Dave]

01475 You are right to highlight the comparison with Sea Air. Powdair do seem to be bona fide if you believe it's acceptable to sell tickets on an airline that will only exist if enough tickets are sold to attract investment to pay for the means to carry out your promise.

It can work in an industry where it is normal to part with the full contract price well in advance of said contract being delivered. Will it work? We'll soon find out.

[01475]

It's strange. In other industries taking money off people on the basis of a promise that is reckless in that whether or not you can keep it is entirely out of your control could be seen as fraud, but in the airline industry it's not at all.

[Jetscream 32]

Crikey, some really sad people here that are desperate to see airlines fail it seems, I distinctly remember seeing that powdair had bought an equity stake in an existing EASA operator! therefore by default they will now be a group company of that EASA operator especially in regards to complying with EC 1008/2008.

And further to the comment about the Valais travel trade - if you lived here like we do then you would know that the Swiss will do nothing till the aircraft turns up, then they will be all over it and claim it was their idea... Thats how it works here....

Do you not also think that all of the high profile ski resorts that have partnered with them would also not do a bit of DD?

Its seems a case of if it doesn't conform to what you think you know about business and airlines thens its a guaranteed failure..... jeeeez! Who needs enemies with friends like you lot on this forum desperately trying to sabotage them even getting over the start line...!

Having just got back from being down route for nearly a month, I'll go for some coffee's and get the scoop on the latest :)

[DC3 Dave]

Speaking for myself, I have absolutely no wish to see Powdair fail, and will raise a glass in their direction if mid December they succeed in bringing a new airline into being. Having read through the posts again I find no evidence of sabotage or conspiracy, but a lot of doubt and many unanswered reasonable questions.

But, who knows Jetscream 32, your faith may yet be rewarded and I'm sure that will be acknowledged here.

[atakacs]

In a somewhat related development it would seem that SkyWork had their license revoked (http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/end-of-operations-_bern-s-skywork-airline-could-be-grounded-at-end-of-month/43600572) by the OFAC

[Expressflight]

The AOC has not yet been revoked, as the article clearly states, but it has been limited to run only until the end of this month unless SkyWork can demonstrate to the OFAC that they can obtain finance to continue to operate their winter flying programme.

It certainly looks pretty grim for their continued existence.

[atakacs]

Your are quite correct - they are still flying. But we know how these stories generally end...

[01475]

Crikey, some really sad people here that are desperate to see airlines fail it seems,

Nobody has said haha I hope it fails, that I've seen.

Someone people on this forum seem to have an odd idea of both cause and effect, and the power posts here may hold. As much as we may either want something to succeed or not care, posting reasoned observations doesn't affect that. There is therefore no moral obligation to talk things up, whether it's a new route or your favourite airport.

Powdair may well succeed, but in doing so it would surprise many of us as it has had a bizarre gestation that has more in common with things that tend to fail than it has in common with anything that has ever succeeded.

[flight_mode]

Considering how other threads go in this area of the forum I think the Sion thread and comment about Powdair specifically is pretty well balanced. I don’t think anyone wants to see it fail but we all have differing views and in some cases insight. I firmly believe a lot of things aren’t right about Powdair, but I nevertheless wish them well. Their directors, investors, staff and partners all need to put food on the table.

In a somewhat related development it would seem that SkyWork had their license revoked (http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/end-of-operations-_bern-s-skywork-airline-could-be-grounded-at-end-of-month/43600572) by the OFAC

It’s interesting, FOCA/OFAC had their eyes on skywork for a long while. In context with this thread, one has to wonder what attention Powdair will get. FOCA didn’t issue the AOC so they cannot withdraw it however, I’m sure they’ll keep a watchful eye of developments. This is just rumour, but apparently SIR-ZRH was dropped due to route licencing issues raised by FOCA (domestic flights aren’t covered by EU regs).

Regarding Powdair buying a stake in Backbone Aviation, read into that what you will. Is it a masterstroke or is it PR and trust building? In 2016 Backbone had assets of 5.6m and 5m of debt with revenue outlook worsening significantly a few days after those numbers came out, what size stake they took, and for what price will determine eventual success.

[Takeoff53]

Now HAM disappeared from the list of served airports as well in the booking tool of Powdair. I assume due to "huge demand" as always pointed out by Powdair?

The route to LCY is not showing the Darwin code anymore, it changed to BOB which is Backbone. Darwin stepped out and discontinued the discussions with Powdair.

Backbone has, as far as I know, not a single aircraft capable for LCY. This means another ACMI partner must be found. And who holds the LCY slots in the meanwhile....?

Powdair is a pipe dream....

[Jetscream 32]

TO53... I think you will find that HAM & EDI disappeared long ago....

How are you so confident of your statements? as they are odds with information from here in SIR....

Maybe you know one of the staff? And surely at a basic aviation knowledge base if BB hold the slots for LCY then clearly they have the means to fulfil that on their code either directly or through ACMI....Duh!!

[fjencl]

Does anybody know what aircraft type is going to be operating the twice daily Sion to London City route yet and who is providing the appropriate type, as I don't think that LCY can take a CRJ200.

[Jetscream 32]

You're right it can't take a CRJ - but I bet hard cash that it will be one of the types listed as approved into LCY :E

[BAladdy]

I believe none of the CRJ series of aircraft are approved to operate at LCY. Only the following aircraft are approved to operate at LCY:

Airbus A318
BAE 146/Avro RJ Family
BAe Jetstream 41
ATR42
ATR72
Bombardier CS100
DHC Dash 7
Bombardier Q Series/DHC Dash 8
Dornier Do328
Dornier Do328JET
Embraer 135
Embraer E170
Embraer E190
Fokker 50
Fokker 70
Saab 340B
Saab 2000

[fjencl]

Time will tell then.

[01475]

If I was betting hard cash on what will operate I'd include a meaningful disclaimer about *if* it operates...

[Takeoff53]

It's not only the question regarding the type. The a/c must be equiped to fly steep approaches. And the crew must be trained as well.

Will Powdair now ask the next possible provider? Time is runing...

[darren1]

Adria Switzerland have told them where to go EX-YU Aviation News (http://www.exyuaviation.com/)

[Jetscream 32]

Hmmm not quite how it is......but still who knows!

[highlandflyer]

whilst doing some research on the major players of this company (nick & zoe) in my opinion, it doesn't seem like they have had much success in the business world

[Jetscream 32]

Well Babckbone were in the sim in Berlin yesterday with Pascal so something must be happening.... glad to see a first time poster only posting negatives...par for the course these days!

[DC3 Dave]

Well, with fewer than 50 days to go, Jetscream32, what sort of posts are you expecting to read?

[Captain_Caveman]

After having contact with several people from Powdair / Backbone over the last few weeks, I have every faith that this project will take off. Whether or not it is a success in the long term is another matter but there is a serious amount of money, know how, technology and thought gone into this set up.

[stewyb]

Give these guys a break and instead hope that a new start up is a success, after all there are too many airlines failing nowadays!

[tophat27dt]

I agree we should give these guys a break at least until we see if the flights commence or not. Will they be using only one type? What can Southend expect to see?

[highlandflyer]

Well Babckbone were in the sim in Berlin yesterday with Pascal so something must be happening.... glad to see a first time poster only posting negatives...par for the course these days!



if peoples past business dealings have been negative is there any reason not to draw attention to these? hopefully they can get it right some day butshould other people be footing the bill? plenty of info on google

[Jetscream 32]

whose footing the bill? - are you referring to ticket money??

From the powdair FAQ's
"What happens when you purchase a ticket from powdair?" CFO of our ticketing partner WorldTicket, Lars Bloch, explains:

"At WorldTicket we process all credit card payments for powdair. Our standard process is that we do not release any funds until the passenger has flown after December 14th 2017, which means that when purchasing the ticket through our services the passenger is always guaranteed to either get their product or a full refund if necessary.

WorldTicket has delivered industry compliant airline distribution solutions since 2002, and we are connected to all the major Global Distribution Systems for more than 10 years. We are the IT provider for more than 50 regional and mid-sized airlines worldwide, and also provides services for payment processing as we do for Powdair. We are more than 80 people located in our offices in Copenhagen, Warsaw, Kiev, Bangkok and Beijing."

[flight_mode]

You're right JS32, the consumer won't be footing any bill, but POWs trading partners would.

[01475]

I really can't see what's wrong with objective analysis of the situation. We have no moral obligation to talk up the prospects of a bizarre proposal that's being implemented in an even more bizarre way.

It's not Nexus Airways, but still, can anyone name one single airline that started off like this and succeeded?

[Jetscream 32]

Talking up! ... even I'd never support that...!

Is it a bizarre proposal? - yes, not implemented in a normal way... yes
Even I'd agree with that..... but are we using old school traditional airline thinking for what is, "as I've been told" direct from the horse's mouth - a digital proposition and should we at least not give them the benefit of the doubt till at least 14th December? After all there is a lot more than just a couple of people involved in airline start-ups as we all know!

Because they appear to be using an approach that is not traditional in airline start-ups doesn't automatically mean an instant fail - however that might just be my thinking?

If they don't start on that date then even I, being here in Valais and seeing far more than most than in the UK or elsewhere would not hesitate to say... yup! - they tried but didn't succeed.

However I will share one comment after digging...from someone that I have spoken too that is very well documented in the aviation industry about one of the people behind it, and this person who I was speaking too...was heading up an aviation division on behalf of an airframer, that has recently been in the news that has links to the UK, Canada and now France...... uuurgghh Hhmmmmm... "oh him....he was a "Legend" for us!!
I nearly spat my "Raclette" out and had to re-confirm!!

It appears from a runways widths point of view that it would be prudent to at least pause for breath before ridiculing!

"Caveat Emptor" normal pprune rules apply :}

[Refuellerman]

Any time ive been past the airfield on the way to zermatt, there has been fog and or low cloud base, very alike to innsbruck for a valley airport, could be difficult on occasions for diversions down the road to geneva, bern or cmf etc

[atakacs]

Hmm fog in SIR is almost unheard of. By all measures I'd say the best airport in Switzerland weather wise.

[Jetscream 32]

Biz jet wise for the last 4 years we have always lost 10 days between December and April and only a couple of them for SNOCLO, but the mil / skyguide forecasters give us at least 24 hrs notice of suspect weather, so as long as the GOM has good planning and SOP's for that eventuality then its a bit of non event to be honest and I know Buchard the local bus operator is already contracted for the Divs plus transfers to resorts...

[fjencl]

Adria have terminated there agreement with Powdair.

Now that Adria have terminated the PowdAir contract, apparently the Sion - LCY - Sion service will be operated by Backbone.

So what type of aircraft will they now use, as obviously they can't operated their own CRJ200 into LCY.

Any ideas

[atakacs]

Just as an aside it would seem that SkyWork is gone for good (they are not flying anymore, although they claim to restart operations soon).

Apparently Ardria is slowly but surely moving in...

[Jetscream 32]

Think you might be a little bit premature there........! Standby

[atakacs]

I guess that as with other matters here we will soon know...

[flight_mode]

Skywork got their licence back last night

[Plane.Silly]

Skyworks license has been renewed for an 'unlimited' amount of time. Does anyone know what that realistically meansd (aside from the glaringly obvious)
SkyWork Airlines receives unlimited operating license after suspension | Airlines content from ATWOnline (http://atwonline.com/airlines/skywork-airlines-receives-unlimited-operating-license-after-suspension)

[yeo valley]

I see powdair have a sion launch route today at the Bristol harbour hotel in the city. They have 4 flights a week planned from brs when the ski season starts.

[Takeoff53]

Skyworks license has been renewed for an 'unlimited' amount of time. Does anyone know what that realistically meansd (aside from the glaringly obvious)
SkyWork Airlines receives unlimited operating license after suspension | Airlines content from ATWOnline (http://atwonline.com/airlines/skywork-airlines-receives-unlimited-operating-license-after-suspension)


Hard to understand your question...:bored: "Realistically", they regained an unrestricted operational permit, nothing else. What else do you expect?

[Plane.Silly]

Appreciate it might be a bit ambiguous. I was under the assumption the licenses needed reneweing every so often, so to give them an unlimited license, it would appear this not to be the case.

I suspect i may be looking a bit daft at this stage, so i'll shut up...

[Takeoff53]

Skywork had for the last few years an "unlimited" permit but got a "restricted" permit mid of October with the obligation to show the necessary funds until October 28th to get back to the status "unlimited"

Skywork was not able to show the funds and therefore the permit was "revoked" which is usually the end of an airline.

However they where able to show the necessary funds some days later and got an "unrestricted" permit again

[fjencl]

Its quite interesting that Powdair inform me by email that I will be flying in the CRJ200 from LCY to SION to LCY, yet the aircraft type is not approved for LCY...lol

[Takeoff53]

Powdair can fly to the moon and an approval for the CRJ 200 to fly LCY is a triviality for them....

[Jetscream 32]

It doesn't say that on my ticket, it says SB20..... there is nobody in powdair that I've spoken too that has ever spoken about the CRJ 200's doing anything other than the regionals and the SB 20 doing the LCY.... so weird you got an email from them stating that .. I'd go back and question that....

[Takeoff53]

Either one is interesting: The CRJ 200, which is not able to fly LCY, or the S20 under the BOB-code, who should/will operate this aircraft.
If it is a S20 the list of possible operators is not very long. Darwin jumped out and I guess SkyWork will not do it any way(?). Who else?
Six or seven weeks to go and still many points are not clearly coommunicated by Powdair. I would not spend money to purchase a ticket as long as Powdair is not clearly saying whats all about and inform their possible customers and passengers reasonably.

[CabinCrewe]

wasnt EDI supposed to be included in this? Seems to have been dropped from their current planned timetable.
Do we expect this outfit to run a full operation?
I see Swiss now planning on getting in on the action ex LHR from Feb

[inOban]

EDI was dropped several months ago.

[LAX_LHR]

Swiss also ran LHR-Sion flights in the winter just gone.

[southside bobby]

Yes...but Swiss adding another month of operation..now January AND February 2018.

[atakacs]

Hmm what aircraft is operated by Swiss?
I wonder how much time would be needed to clear non Schengen immigration for a fully loaded 320...

[fjencl]

Embraer 190

[atakacs]

Ok that makes it somewhat more manageable

[atakacs]

Just seen the Swiss is launching some end of year flight SIR - OPO.

Might become busy...

[Jetscream 32]

Massive Portugese contingent here in the Valais and it will be a very good route, but they are not know to be big spenders so the price needs to be keen and the times / schedule right, it will be a good route for sure.. just seen its a charter for 2 rotations.... so I know whose behind it.... yep that will be good for Sion....

[Takeoff53]

A bit more than four weeks to go, who will fly LCY? It's still on sale, a quick check showed return fares of EUR 480.00.

[Takeoff53]

According travelnews.ch Powdair did not name the airline who should operate LCY during a "Launch-Event" yesterday in London. Not very promising... Only two weeks to go!

[fjencl]

Perhaps they are searching hard to find an operator with a suitable aircraft to operate the LCY-SIR-LCY twice a day route starting on the 11th December.

Am sure they are working hard to achieve this.

Fingers crossed

[flight_mode]

Maybe they are back in talks with Skywork? I personally doubt it but there's not a huge stock of 50 seaters with crew capable of operating into LCY.

[Jetscream 32]

I hear from a reliable source that the Swiss / German media and in particular travel / airline industry publications are really starting to pi$$ off the very small team that is setting this up, they have far too much on their plate to be doing than answering journos all the time that have no interest in doing much apart from seeding doubt on what is arguably a very very difficult task.

We are all still fingers crossed here and there is nothing to say its not happening thats for sure! We are due some more snow over the weekend and hopefully back end of next week also - so as long we keep the temperature down then it could all work quite nicely.... fingers crossed

[Porky Speedpig]

Surely for a new start up any and all media attention is gold-dust and to be celebrated, not resisted. This all looks more hopeful than certain to me and I certainly wouldn't be risking my cash given all the alternatives.
It is not easy doing a set-up but I am surprised it is all so last minute in this case.

[SWBKCB]

hear from a reliable source that the Swiss / German media and in particular travel / airline industry publications are really starting to pi$$ off the very small team that is setting this up, they have far too much on their plate to be doing than answering journos all the time that have no interest in doing much apart from seeding doubt on what is arguably a very very difficult task.

If they are thinking that, they should be thinking it very, very quietly and not letting it anywhere the public domain. Too busy to deal with the public, where's their customer focus?? How about a bitt of openness, transparency (honesty?) for those handing over their hard earned?

[flight_mode]

Powdair’s team have time to push out press releases, Facebook posts and Instagram’s and do launch events yet they don’t have time to answer awkward questions from Journo’s? Hmmm.

It’s true JS32, The local/neighbouring industry press are all over Powdair. Switzerland being such a small country with a handful of airports and operators mean anything like this generates interest. FWIW these same publications are all over Swiss, Darwin, Skywork etc too.

Powdair is being discussed on the upper floors of all operators here.

[Jetscream 32]

Yep its definitely small alright, but this seems to be the only industry where you appear to have to lay all of your cards on the table for scrutiny that you would never have to do for any other type of company.. and as far I can tell its a private company, also there would have to be some level of confidentially especially in a super competitive marketplace and with SIR having no slot restrictions it would be wise to keep a few cards close to your chest....

@F_M
Social and marketing posts in our organisation are a completely different department to the ops / commercial side - actually in different countries
so they would never have a clue to what we were up to or what the fleet plans were until they were told according to the corp policies etc.... just sayin!

[flight_mode]

J32: Your organisation is bigger and ermmm actually operating ;)

You must think it curious though no? Either they have an operator for LCY and can say so, or they don't.... done commercial deals don't need to be kept confidential.

[DC3 Dave]

I hear from a reliable source that the Swiss / German media and in particular travel / airline industry publications are really starting to pi$$ off the very small team that is setting this up, they have far too much on their plate to be doing than answering journos all the time that have no interest in doing much apart from seeding doubt on what is arguably a very very difficult task.

It's good to know there are still journalists out there that ask questions that need answering instead of relying on press releases and social media feeds.

Before anyone suggests I'm in the 'let's do them down' club, I'm not. But I do believe you shouldn't take peoples' money without knowing you can complete your end of the deal, whether your name is Powdair or Ryanair.

[01475]

I would jolly well hope journos were asking searching questions of an outfit that hasn't announced who is operating flights in two weeks time.

That this annoys them is... worrying.

[Takeoff53]

saying the flight plan has been reduced recently once more with another cut of destinations and LCY is not double daily anymore, only a few flight per week are left. But double daily LCY is still on sale.
And is this the same Mr. Davis like the Powdair-Mr. Davis? Maybe an old story. Exclusive: Anti-pirate security staff all at sea after major firm suddenly goes bust | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/exclusive-anti-pirate-security-staff-all-at-sea-after-major-firm-suddenly-goes-bust-9636217.html)

[Jetscream 32]

TO53,

I think people will read that link in many ways - most I assume will be quick to wage in with adverse comments, but its clear if you can run one of the biggest security companies in the world for a period of time and set up other companies then actually its unlikely to be a scam and that actually its clear the guy can actually create large companies, just because he's had some bad luck, it doesn't mean its always going to be that way and the media only ever report the failures and bad - never the good do they!!

And no one is ever going to know the real story behind the reason for the collapse as the media are never that understanding - just sayin!

And who told you that the schedule has changed? I'm here in SIR and its not reached the south side of the field yet if its true?

[Takeoff53]

JS32, I guess that many people at SIR will not see the reality, you included, and those a bit further away have a more critical point of view.

The same goes for the flow of information. By sitting at SIR will not automatically mean you have all the information. The following points are to consider:


Recently at the "Launch Party" in London Powdair was not willing to give information about the possible Operator for LCY. According Travelnews it was only said "an airline with S20 and the capability to fly LCY will do it. Darwin told themself they are out and this leaves little room? Eastern (still operating S20?), SkyWork?


Ask Backbone how many airplanes are planned for SIR, latest News are calling for only one. This means not all the planned and as well SOLD routes can be flown!

[Jetscream 32]

Cant argue with what your saying - but neither of us have all the information do we ;)

Either way EC261's will start to come in to play next week - so anything they are doing im sure will be fairly quick out next week - then we will all see! - off skiing now - laters :)

[Takeoff53]

Only rumours? Only four destinations and even not half the flights are left but no information from Powdair and everything is still on the web for sale? Known by the Airport?

[davidjohnson6]

TakeOff53 - could you tell us where or how you found out that only 4 destinations remain ?

[fjencl]

What are the 4 destinations.............

[DIBO]

...there's not a huge stock of 50 seaters with crew capable of operating into LCY.well, a few more became available in recent months vlm-airlines-received-belgian-aocs-for-both-airbus-a320-and-fokker-50-operations (https://flyvlm.force3.be/vlm-airlines-received-belgian-aocs-for-both-airbus-a320-and-fokker-50-operations).
Some clever planning & timetable adjustments might even find a way to combine ANR-SIR-LCY flights. Alternatively, with some clever cooperation, VLM's ZRH flight could be combined with ANR-SIR (via ZRH). Far from ideal for the SIR travelers, but I doubt that even both destinations combined will fill up 50 seats... Regarding the ANR skiing travellers, TUI starting winter flights ANR-INN, will certainly take away a large part of the air travelling skiers market share, which otherwise might have chosen SIR as destination...

[Jetscream 32]

That will never happen..... 2:20 flight time and only 35 pax from either LCY or ANR - non starter plus they would only be able to do the VMC departure

[01475]

TO53,

its clear if you can run one of the biggest security companies in the world for a period of time and set up other companies then actually its unlikely to be a scam and that actually its clear the guy can actually create large companies, just because he's had some bad luck

Nobody is suggesting they need to provide information to show it's not a scam, but they do urgently need to provide basic information to show they are competent to run a travel service. I'm sure they can obtain a plane, but it would be good to know that they have!!!

I think you specified part of the issue in your defence. I for example have a lot of experience of counting numbers and making sets of accounts, and particular experience of things to do with fraud. I would therefore expect people to ask me detailed searching questions about my knowledge, skills and experience if I applied for an Ops job or set up an airline...

(If you have something to do with the company then of course I wish you the highest levels of luck to match what I am sure are your exceptionally high levels of good faith.)

[davidjohnson6]

Might be interesting to note that Darwin are reportedly abandoning their scheduled operations at Lugano and will become a purely charter carrier. I believe they have 6 Saab 2000s. Flights remain available to book but this might change in a day or two. I am not privy to any information about Darwin beyond what is in the public domain so am unable to confirm anything independently
Source (in German)
https://www.blick.ch/news/wirtschaft/luftverkehr-darwin-airline-kehrt-lugano-2018-den-ruecken-id7644909.html

[01475]

That's a great shame; I feel particularly sorry for airlines that have tried to find their niche as hard and repeatedly as Darwin did. (The reason given is of course clearly nonsense; the could have used Adria's reservation system if that was a problem, and that's before all the other off the shelf alternatives available to far smaller airlines!)

[2Planks]

Below is a copy of an email received by a snowHead (PPrune for skiers and Boarders) today:


An important powdair update...

Since the powdair journey commenced two years ago, we've done our very best to be open and honest about the prospects and opportunities of our fledgling airline. After all, new airlines don't launch every day and we've faced many expected and unexpected challenges along the way.

What's the point of powdair? Opening up the incredible Swiss Valais region to skiers, snowboarders and year-round mountain lovers across Europe is our mission. Significantly reduced journey times direct to Sion rather than Geneva, improved transfer connections to resort, more time on holiday and for second home owners, better access to your investment, is the end result. But that's not where this journey ends.

This morning our key financial backer walked away from the powdair journey for personal reasons.

We're faced now with two options. We either postpone starting powdair this winter – in which case, those of you who've already booked flights would be guaranteed a full refund.

Or,

We offer the airline to you, our army of passionate powdair supporters, in the hope that you'd like to own a stake in powdair and benefit in our future shared success.

In a nutshell...

Over 5,000 people have already booked flights with us for this season
More than 85 of you have signed up as Season Pass holders, already buying between 10 and a whopping 80 tickets each to fly with us this season!
We’ve already been awarded Best Start-up Business in the World Snow Awards
We’re officially partnered with 17 resorts in the Valais and Portes du Soleil, including Verbier, Crans Montana, Nendaz, Anzere, Thyon 4 Vallées, Morzine, Champéry, Avoriaz, Châtel and Les Gets – and already have a raft of events and marketing activity planned with them
We’re working with hundreds of Valais, British and Belgian businesses – big and small - to ensure that both they and our powdair passengers benefit from everything we do

Without funding, we're now facing the situation of needing to postpone the start of our flight schedule for this winter season*, which is currently set to commence on 11th December 2017. However, with your support we can still make powdair a success and take off as planned this winter. At this late stage, community ownership is realistically the only way we'll be able to make powdair operational this winter.

:mad:

A word from Sean Pettit, our Chief Financial Officer:

"Just as the powdair operation begins to snowball, today's setback is both unexpected and potentially disastrous for our airline, booked passengers and resort partners. Operational systems and strategies are already in place, whilst ticket sales are very strong and exceeding expectations. powdair is ready to go, but we now desperately need investment. I'd personally like to hear from anyone interested in owning either a small or large part of our airline."

Please bear in mind that we're a very small team working with limited resources and we need to secure at least £3 million to operate this season and at least £1 million by the end of this week in order to operate a reduced but efficient flight schedule this season.

[Barling Magna]

Oh dear....... what an amateurish set-up.

[southside bobby]

A very very informative post above from 2Planks but shouldn't the post be taken down as it appears to be "asking for money"?....

[Takeoff53]

5'000 bookings only? This means about two weeks of operation. I remember that an A319 should fly "due to huge demand".

[flight_mode]

£1m by the end of the week. Jeeez.

[Jetscream 32]

@TO53 remember of course that most airlines only get 70% of their seat sales upto 96 hours before departure..... its not meant to be a charter airline...plus if you read it for what its worth - they may still fly!

[flight_mode]

No, that ship has sailed. 5,000+ people will have received that email and started looking for a replacement flight.

[01475]

Oh well. There's a surprise.

Been a rollercoaster few months for Sion airport between this and SkyWork.

[The Nutts Mutts]

Surely anyone who has the money freely available to invest the sort of funds Powdair are looking for at such short notice would already be travelling by private jet and not booking flights on CRJs and Saabs?
I've got nothing against Powdair and wish to see them succeed but this all feels a bit desperate now, and it's hard to see how any sort of investor or passenger confidence can be retained after today's announcement.

[01475]

Quite. It's one of the worst examples of amateurish desperation I've ever heard of! Yet... they are still taking bookings? No wonder their payment processor has them on 100% retention!

[asdf1234]

They're proposing community ownership - 5,000 ticket holders each stump up £600...£3m raised. It won't happen but it's wrong to say they were looking for a white Knight amongst their passengers.

[DC3 Dave]

Obviously if they only raise £500k, they'll hand that cash back as it won't be enough to meet the objective.

[Takeoff53]

@TO53 remember of course that most airlines only get 70% of their seat sales upto 96 hours before departure..... its not meant to be a charter airline...plus if you read it for what its worth - they may still fly!


This might be the case for business routes but for sure not for routes which have 99% leisure travelers.


I realize that you are an endless believer of Powdair....

[Jetscream 32]

@TO53 certainly not an endless believer but having spent a lot of time with the powdair team, mainly Zoe and occasionally nick or the others I am left with a genuine and sincere belief that they are undertaking a tough task, with a genuine interest and desire to turn this airport into a regular service airport - that is a massive start from ZERO and from rumours this morning there is a huge response to that email missive that want this to work and will put their hand in their pocket... so this could be a "best seller" book material if they turn it around.. very nervous / exciting few days ahead I think!

[2Planks]

I hope J32 is right but the website does not seem to be accepting bookings and their Twitter feed links to text similar to that I posted above (clearly I won't post it again as I may end up in the sin bin!)

[southside bobby]

mmmmmm....Daily Telegraph picked up on the negative news & reporting now..

[flight_mode]

so this could be a "best seller" book material if they turn it around..
If Powdair wrote a book it would be launched as the best book in the world, it will be hand carved into the best alpine granite (by popular demand) and then it will get downgraded to a hardback, then a paperback followed by a refusal to commit to any type of paper at all! Shortly before launch they’d fall out with every printer in the land and then write a ransom note to their customers withholding the book until 1 million pounds is paid…. it would be funny, if it were not true.

[01475]

The idea that making a booking for a ski holiday makes you part of an airline's "community" would be laughable if it weren't for the pathetic desperation. I do fee will sorry for them, but there are times to give up and this is unfortunately one.

You cannot launch a crowdfunded airline at 2 week's notice.

[2Planks]

Might be interesting to note that Darwin are reportedly abandoning their scheduled operations at Lugano and will become a purely charter carrier.




I see in R&N that Darwin have just been grounded by FOCA.

[AirportPlanner1]

I don't think this will launch. But if sales are what they say they are, it equates to around 6 people booked on every flight on sale (if the timetable is right). Which actually doesn't seem too bad, considering about a third of those flights are on the Zurich route where you would expect the bulk of bookings to come in the last 72 hours. So bookings for the ski routes in the near future are surely much higher.

[01475]

Did they still have a Zurich route the last time I looked at the booking engine?

[01475]

I see in R&N that Darwin have just been grounded by FOCA.

That's a real shame. Obviously it is in itself a sign of desperation, but they were certainly willing to be very innovative! It looks like there have been better times
to be an operator of small aircraft in Switzerland in history.

Of course they ended up perhaps mainly wanting to operate in the EU, and being outside it was therefore unhelpful :-( There may be a warming there...

[highlandflyer]

whilst doing some research on the major players of this company (nick & zoe) in my opinion, it doesn't seem like they have had much success in the business world

Hate to say "Told you so"

[Jetscream 32]

I'm not aware that they have gone into administration or stopped trading - and your research.... did you find the successes they had in business?

I found 2 that they started and sold, a Defence IT business and a Humanitarian one, but as with all press things they only search and publish the bad news, never the good!

Just sayin!

[DC3 Dave]

Right now, Powdair's website remains up and running, inviting people to part with their hard-earned cash. Are they attempting to trade whilst insolvent? Do they owe money anywhere? If they do, is there a reasonable prospect their creditors will be paid in full?

[2Planks]

DC3D - when I looked last night you couldn't get a price but, as you say, you now can. But there is a note at the bottom of the website indicating the first weeks flights are cancelled and a decision on the rest of the season will be made this Friday.

[flight_mode]

DC3D
One assumes they are solvent because otherwise they’d be failing in their fiduciary and statutory duties. Irish law does give a company some scope to trade out of financial difficulties which is where they appear to be right now.

*If* the deal to acquire a share in Backbone completed this will present a challenge in any eventual winding up of the company.

[Porky Speedpig]

Travelmole headline is "New UK airline on brink of collapse". Doesn't sound too good.

[Barling Magna]

It doesn't. Powdair isn't a UK airline.

[davidjohnson6]

Powdair are awfully ambiguous in their marketing as to whether they are an airline or no - unless you know that BOB is the ICAO code for Backbone Aviation, an ordinary punter probably wouldn't have a clue when they're going to be flying with a company not called Powdair. Perhaps Travelmole should know better but I can understand where the person who wrote the article is coming from

[01475]

While what they have done was completely legal, I restate my view that it shouldn't be.

You should not be allowed to sell aeroplane tickets when you have no idea how that service might be operated.

The law should not accept that people (as also with CityWing in their dying days) can act as agent to an unknown principal that can be changed by the agent. It's not logical and it's not sound.

[southside bobby]

TravelMole report does not name Powdair as a UK airline...It headlines the report as New Ski Airline.........
But just as the original poster states..."Doesn't sound too good.

[Barling Magna]

TravelMole report does not name Powdair as a UK airline

That's interesting. They must be reading this thread because it certainly did have the headline "New UK Airline on Brink of Collapse" at 1230 GMT today. They have now corrected it, as you say.

[southside bobby]

mmmmm...as you state interesting..thanks.

[flight_mode]

Scoot Ferries couple launch Powdair airline - and ask for £3 million after backer walks away (http://www.iwcp.co.uk/news/news/scoot-ferries-couple-launch-Powdair-airline-and-ask-for-3-million-after-backer-walks-away-317300.aspx)

After inviting investors to a communitity ownership model it now appears they aren't investments. They're 'pledges'

The company said on Tuesday 134 potential investors had come forward, but warned: "Pledges do not represent a stake in Powdair. Failure of the airline in the next five years would mean loss of the funds with no realistic recovery."

[fjencl]

So will there be some sort of public announcement TODAY to state whether or not this company is going to operate in/out of Sion.

[Jetscream 32]

The grapevine seems to suggest that a good news story might be coming out rather than a bad news one...lets wait and see!

[flight_mode]

Pledge here: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/6VQ5NGF

[fjencl]

We do love the grapevine

[DC3 Dave]

Lot's of interest out there apparently. No shortage of people willing to make an ultra high risk investment with no prospect of gain.

But then at least you have the opportunity of all those lovely free flights (terms & conditions apply).

[flight_mode]

Maybe a consolidation of the 3 London destinations into 1 plus dropping 1 or 2 others might allow them to move forward. According the their FB page we'll know later today.

[01475]

Good lord.

Has there been a crowdfunded airline before? I know the insolvency courts have been graced by the presence of a crowdfunded train operator... but an airlin... I mean tour operator?

[stewyb]

Is this some joke, why would anyone pledge their hard earned money to an airline set up that has no equity stake on offer or any guarantees of seeing your money again. Pledges are fine to a charity or someone/somebody in need but I can jump on an Easyjet flight out of SOU - GVA this winter and at considerably less cost!

[01475]

I just looked at the surveymonkey. Is that legal under... I presume it's Irish law that applies?

There's definitely ways of doing that that would be legal under English Laws, just... some of the language used would be seen as very clumsy at best?

Are they allowed to call it an investment? (Genuine question; I'm not suggesting they aren't, I'm just curious.)

It doesn't seem like what they are offering in in the nature of an investment, and using the word "investment" when you are offering something often comes with the motherload of regulatory burden (though in fairness, so normally does running an airline...).

[Avnu]

From their Facebook page: they found a new major investor but as due diligence takes 30 days they are not going to be launching this winter but 'during 2018' with their 'own aircraft'.

(That and about a zillion lines of marketing fluff)

[fjencl]

Awwww what a shame.

[canberra97]

So what does actually mean, so is the whole Powdair operation done in now or is there really any chance of them getting off the ground in 2018?

Along with many others on here I have had doubts about this whole operation from day one.

[Buster the Bear]

https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/powdair-cancels-flights-for-2017-8-winter-season-12529