Fast jets and Advisory Routes in Scotland

[Aunt Rimmer]

Any jet jocks or talking ballast out of Lossiemouth/Leuchars care to illuminate me on their attitudes to the ADRs in Scottish FIR? :confused:

Particularly A1D, W3D and W6D southeast of Stornoway. Do you attempt to avoid them, are you aware of them, or do you just blast through them and hell mend the passenger planes ?

Good airmanship might suggest that crossing in level flight (ie. not pulling up into a rocket climb through the route) or at least seeking a radar service from ScotMil would be the sensible option.
:rolleyes:

Do you have TCAS fitted on Tornadoes, Jags and Nimrods ? (Does TCAS work better than Blue Circle radar ;) )

I eagerly await illumination.

[Stan Bydike]

No TCAS on Nimrods. And we should have a RAS for penetrating the Advisories

[canberra]

no jags based in scotland! has someone been up to something on jmc?

[Fay Deck]

Aunt Rimmer,

Call me paranoid but I always get suspicious when questions like this are asked.

Why do you want to know?

Fay

PS I'm not paranoid, I know for certain they are out to get me!:confused:

[Mach the Knife]

canberra you knob... did you mean Scotland and JMC. I know it's trivia but I can't help myself. For some reason your lack of use of capitals is making me really grumpy.

[Braveheart]

I used to fly air defence training sorties from Leuchars and we took avoidance of the advisory routes very seriously indeed. If we were operating VFR we would have a service from a UK ADGE site (who were liaising with Scot Mil) and we would often be passed avoiding action from them on any traffic using the routes you have mentioned. When going about our business we would often amend our flight paths to avoid traffic in the advisories and we would always be aware of your presence through our radar service.

[Braveheart]

Further to my last TCAS is not fitted to any fast jets in RAF service and to be honest with the nature of our sorties would not be very useful. We seldom cruise at one level for any length of time and are rather dynamic in our flight profiles. However we instill a culture of lookout during training and have our eyes outside the cockpit for most of the time we are VFR submitting to the 'see and avoid' principle. On aircraft fitted with air-to-air radar we generally have radar contact on any aircraft at a suitable range to avoid you, ultimately relying on visual contact to preserve separation.

[Aunt Rimmer]

Braveheart - thanks for that info. From my point of view I have to try and maintain 5 miles separation from unknown contacts. Not easy when the SH36 or ATP is doing 200 kts (or less) against a very fast mover. I would start trying to avoid the conflicter at 10+ miles, but if it is turning/manouvering/climbing then it is well nigh impossible. How far away would you stay from traffic ? Cos the problem is that I don't know if you can see me. Even if you're VFR and decide to miss by 4.5 miles, I'm still working my arse off (and scaring the pants off the hosties) weaving around the sky to avoid.

Some of the Lossie Tornadoes might do well to take your more responsible attitude - that's all I'm saying ;)

But as they're not here to defend themselves, I won't say any more.

PS Do mud movers know where the 'ON' button is on a computer, or do they just use it for porn ?:D

[BEagle]

Auntie - presumably you're referring to those Class F advisory routes in which separation is provided between participating IFR traffic only? In which VFR flight is also permitted, but which requires no RT contact with you nor clearance from you?

Class F ADRs are very far from being Class A airways; sure good airmanship would suggest that VFR traffic should give aircraft flying in ADRs a wide berth - but don't expect a military fast jet under VFR crossing behind an airliner in an ADR to manoeuvre to pass 5 miles behind it.......

[Alf Aworna]

Auntie as a mudmover I can confirm that what Braveheart says is correct and that crossing of the Advisory routes by all RAF aircraft is taken very seriously. Don't bad mouth the Lossie boys without finding out the facts- if you are serious about this and want to hear/see how things are done why don't you be proactive and phone up the Lossie Flight Safety Officer or one of the Tornado sqns, establish your credentials and air your concerns rather than dripping on an open forum ;). I am sure they will be more than happy to help and explain to you how they go about their business.

[Aunt Rimmer]

BEagle - Indeed. As we know rules are for the obedience etc..etc.. but good airmanship (which as I understand it implies an appreciation of the problems one can cause other airspace users) surely dictates that ADRs aren't just ignored and used as a play area. And as I said, I don't know if you have seen my traffic (and are popping up for a curious look) or haven't (as many airprox reports relate - see recent Macgregor publicity) as I weave the punters around the sky.

Glad to see that there seems an appreciation from the Nimrods (cross in level flight under a RAS), and the F3s @ QL, RAS from ScotMil.

Put the boot on the other foot. Civil pilots legally do not need to recognise the MATZ - the 2nm ATZ, yes - but not the 5 mile MATZ and stub. But, good airmanship means that I don't fly my 160HP mighty beast around a mil radar circuit or 3 mile final - sure I'd get some smashing photos - but I like to think that I ain't gonna screw someone elses task up.

[Roymac]

Like most things in life, it is a question of balance. Any type of air route must be monitored for Civi traffic when Mil traffic is operating near/around/under etc - that is basic airmanship. But it cuts both ways. If Civi traffic decides (for example) to decline the safety of P600 out of Aberdeen enroute to the south and take the direct line to (say) Newcastle - then it passes about 20nm east of Leuchars without co-ord (I say again without co-ord) with Leuchars ATC and then stumbles straight through OTA "C" (LFA 12 / 16), one of the busiest low level/ affili areas in the UK. Not smart airmanship but it saves time and fuel and that is the real driver. The job can be done with a bit of give and take, however in my many years in AD, the RAF do most of the giving and the Civis do most of the taking.