Cost of a VFR lighty?

[fury308]

Long time out of Australia and thinking about buying a cheap light aircraft when I return? Lot’s of changes with Part 61 etc.

Can anyone advise the costs associated with flying a light aircraft VFR around Aus?

Landing fees (I’m guessing that depends on the airport)?
Air nav or enroute charges?
Is there an additional cost for controlled airspace?
Parking/hangars in country type airports like Goolwa, Mildura, Swan Hill etc.
Does one need to gain approval to land or is it a given if it is a civil airport and not a privately owned strip (where one would ask first)?
How about a strip on ones own land - is it feasible or a minefield with neighbours, councils etc?
Fuel? (haven’t bought avgas in Aus for 25 years)
Registration? (it will be 4 seater, single)
Anything else that could trap a not so young player?

Also, had a bit of a read and found a couple of misleading or slightly contradictory pieces on ADS-B, is it required or going to be required for VFR aircraft?

Greatly appreciate any information or direction.

fury…

[gerry111]

Long time out of Australia and thinking about buying a cheap light aircraft when I return? Lot’s of changes with Part 61 etc.

Can anyone advise the costs associated with flying a light aircraft VFR around Aus?

Jeez, Where does one start?

(Just on AVGAS, Air BP have done away with carnets for people like you and me. But they conveniently haven't enabled their bowsers to accept credit cards, unlike Shell. So if you turn up at YBHI, as an example, be prepared to pay for an expensive call out fee for the operator. Plus pay 20c extra per litre. On a recent April trip to YCDU, we needed fuel. A couple of guys in a rather nice Boeing Stearman had already rang for AIR BP AVGAS there. Fortunately, we were able to share the $120 call out fee..)

[tail wheel]

"....thinking about buying a cheap light aircraft when I return?"

No such thing as a "cheap" light aircraft. If the purchase price seems cheap, expect to need a second mortgage to pay for maintenance.

I recommend a Bex and a long lie down. The temporary insanity will pass!!

From one who has owned too many aircraft (and boats!)!

[Squawk7700]

Nothing has changed much in those 25 years, other than cost. After all, you'll be flying probably the exact same aircraft you were 25 years ago, it will just have been repainted 3 times, the dash will be all scratched, the seats almost worn out and it will have the same instruments, radios and transponder as it won't need ADSB yet.

[3 Holer]

Aircraft, boats and women are ALL cheaper to rent than own!!!

[GoDirect]

If you are located in USA, I would suggest that you buy a good one over there and import it to Oz. Although you will have to pay freight, GST etc, you will end up with a far newer and tidier aircraft and have a wider choice to buy from. Just make sure that you get thorough checks done on what you are looking at over there, as you would have to do in Oz anyway. Also make sure that any outstanding requirements for the type have been done and checked off, eg, SIDS etc.

[fury308]

Thanks all for the replies, not sure you've helped me convince my wife this is a good idea?
Read this yesterday on turnaround, there was another reply that appears to have been deleted - would be happy to read it again if possible? (not sure who posted it)

Good points on the ageing aircraft in Aus, any thoughts on the Glasair Sportsman as a alternative to a conventional Piper, Cessna, Beechcraft?

Thanks again.

fury...

[jonkster]

FWIW - when I did my sums recently on owning/renting for a 4 seat light aircraft with no loan costs, it worked out to be I would need to put 200hrs/year on it before buying beat renting.

That number would be better if you had lower hangar fees than typical Sydney basin or if you were happy for the aircraft to be parked outside.

Those figures depend a lot on aircraft type and hangarage, and also to some extent location (think movement charges, fuel costs etc) but I worked out 200 hours was a roughly the balance point for me and my aircraft choices.

I was expecting fuel to be a big factor but was surprised how hangarage in Sydney (BK/CN) also made a big dent on costs/hour.

I did the calcs for my choices and situation by setting up a quick spreadsheet, looked at approx maintenance budget for engine/airframe spread over typical rebuild times, 100 hourlys, refurbs etc plus fuel costs, hangar costs, insurance, movement charges etc to get an hourly rate it was costing me to feed and water the aircraft.

The more hours I did, the more it dropped the hourly costs (basically the more hours would reduce the impact of the fixed costs). As I said, I found around 200 hours/year it started to look cheaper to buy than rent - depending a bit on aircraft type.

Other factors that you might want to consider when working it out would be if you were needing finance, if there were any tax deductability options, maybe putting it on line to offset costs etc.

[Aussie Bob]

The actual cost of running a light aircraft is insignificant if the ownership of said aircraft is a joy and fun. Also you can choose something that is not normally available for rent. You can also own something short term and loose very little. You could even turn a small profit. Make it a business or part of a business and get taxation benefits and GST on everything aircraft related back.

I have no real idea what my aircraft have cost to own over the years, I am simply not that interested but the accountant I use has tended to raise an eyebrow on the odd July month of reckoning. Having a supporting partner is also essential. I am only allowed to sell mine if it is to buy another. Mine is a couples activity even though she doesn't fly it herself. It is a holiday and fun machine for the both of us.

Go on, spend the kids inheritance. They will only waste it anyway.

[flywatcher]

Well said, Aussie Bob, I'm with you

[fury308]

Thanks too for the replies Jonkster and Aussie Bob.
Appreciate all the replies.
fury...

[fury308]

Apologies for what may be a stupid question: Is one able to change a certified aircraft, say a Cherokee 140 for example, into an "Experimental" aircraft? I appreciate this would devalue the machine, but I'm wondering if one could fit uncertified avionics/engine etc to a certified aircraft if it were deemed experimental?
fury...

[Global Aviator]

I’ve said it before, a trip to Oshkosh in July to see what is really out there!

From experimental to very light to GA. Or spend 500k and get a 2 seat jet (joking kinda).

Every time I visit it just amazes me what is available!

[Sunfish]

Llike yachts; if you have to ask, you can't afford it.

[Possum1]

Is one able to change a certified aircraft, say a Cherokee 140 for example, into an "Experimental" aircraft? I appreciate this would devalue the machine, but I'm wondering if one could fit uncertified avionics/engine etc to a certified aircraft if it were deemed experimental?

If you are looking at a certified Cherokee 140, you will find quite a few with uncertified avionics/engine etc. in them anyway. Your logbook check will find some of these things but not all of them.

There was one Cherokee 140 that a mate owned which had an O-320 E2D engine with the data plate on the engine carefully changed to read E2A so it would be covered by the RAM 160hp STC upgrade as the STC does not cover the E2D engine upgrade in Cherokees. By the way, this upgrade turns the plane into a much safer and willing little rocket ship.

Another one had Metco-aire Hoerner wingtips installed, which lowers the stall speed, increases the cruise speed, increases the climb rate, gives more positive aileron control(so they say) - all good - but absolutely nothing in the logbook saying when, where or by whom they were installed.

Welcome to GA in Australia.

[no_one]

Apologies for what may be a stupid question: Is one able to change a certified aircraft, say a Cherokee 140 for example, into an "Experimental" aircraft? I appreciate this would devalue the machine, but I'm wondering if one could fit uncertified avionics/engine etc to a certified aircraft if it were deemed experimental?
fury...


Yes,kind of. There are a number of categories that cover experimental certificates. CASR 21.191 is the relevant bit:

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2017C00742

An experimental certificate may be issued for one or more of the following purposes:
(a) research and development: for example testing new aircraft design concepts, new aircraft equipment, new aircraft installations, new aircraft operating techniques, or new uses for aircraft;

and paragraph i says:
(i) private operations of prototype aircraft previously certificated under paragraph 21.191(a), (b) or (d);

What you would have to do is do the installation for research and development and then you could get an experimental certificate to allow continued private operations. You would need to find a CASA Authorised Person through this link to see what requirements they may have including $$$. https://www.casa.gov.au/licences-and-certification/standard-page/airworthiness-delegate-search

The conditions associated with the experimental certificate may be restrictive(or may not) and the exercise may not be terribly worthwhile.

[fury308]

Thanks all for the replies, appreciate the effort and detail from Possum1 and no_one along with Sunfish's wisdom and Global Aviator's advice. I have some reading to do and need to go to Oshkosh too!!
fury...

[fujii]

Mine costs around $10000 per year before any flying.

[Lead Balloon]

My understanding - based on some quick research I did a while ago - is that even if you’re able to change an aircraft from ‘standard’ certification to experimental, the maintenance on e.g. the engine still has to be done by a LAME.

[Bend alot]

My understanding is you can not change from "standard" to experimental without making a substantial change to the aircraft that requires it to be in experimental.


Changing radios, instruments and/or power plants can often be done via Engineering Orders - only when it can not be covered by Engineering Orders is experimental an option.

[gassed budgie]

Mine costs around $10000 per year before any flying

Yup. Same here.

[fujii]

Yup. Same here...

What do you have?

[StickWithTheTruth]

I've got a light experimental vfr single 4 seater with zero lame costs and I'm at around $7k for hangar and insurance and that's before I open the hangar doors to go anywhere, let alone put in any avgas!

[fury308]

Would that be an RV10 SWTT?
fury...

[gassed budgie]

What do you have?

210N. And you Fujii?

[StickWithTheTruth]

Nope. RV10's are for the rich in this country :-)

[fujii]

210N. And you Fujii?


A Fuji FA200/160.

[gassed budgie]

A Fuji FA200/160

Well it had to be didn't it! Used to fly one on the odd occasion back in the mid '80's. FJV maybe?

[fury308]

Thanks all for answers/comments etc. Much appreciated.
There was talk on another thread about a SIDS equivalent for Piper's, Beechcraft etc. has this developed any further? Also, how many hours is a SIDS inspection on average for a single engine Cessna? (just the inspection, no repair or rectification)
fury...

[Section28- BE]

Hmmmm

"It" hasn't been quoted.............., yet, so.

Very old analogy ex a Bloke who had done 'the' yards and then some.

"Ehhh- should 'it' fly/float or fornicate, RENT It/Power by the Hour the thing!!!!!!"

Rgds all
S28- BE

Beg your pardon- 'Whispering "T" Jet', you nailed it!!!!

[gerry111]

A Fuji FA200/160.

Ah, such wonderful memories of the Royal Aero Club at Parafield circa 1973.
Apart from their fleet of Airtourers they also had a Fuji FA200-160.

At the time, I was a teenager teaching Reinhold W. to fly radio controlled model aircraft and he returned the favour by taking me G.A. flying. I'll never forget the fun aerobatics in the training area nor the toilet roll drops.. :D

[Wiggley]

Slight tangent here, but for those that do own their own aircraft, how does everyone manage and track their costs, including upcoming inspections etc?

[no_one]

Slight tangent here, but for those that do own their own aircraft, how does everyone manage and track their costs, including upcoming inspections etc?

I deliberately don't track the cost of flying. If I added it all up I would probably not be able to afford to do it....

[StickWithTheTruth]

With the way that some LAME's work it would be impossible to forecast any upcoming costs. You might get a clean bill of health, then in the next inspection you need $7,000 of corrosion removed from your tail section.

Owner maintenance in experimental helps alleviate some of this bill shock.

[The sod]

Owning a lightie is easy.
Just pay the money. It's all about PASSION and the PRIDE of OWNERSHIP.
Bear with me here is my story
I gained my PPL at an early age and had no one to guide me on what to do next.
Ansett were after CPL's with 500hrs total and a morse endorsement.
I thought Airline pilots were intellectual gods, much smarter than me. I have since changed my opinion after coming across PPRUNE
By chance I was associated with a fledgling gliding club who wanted to purchase a tug. We all threw in a couple of hundred bucks and purchased a tug.
Free flying for me and a few hundred hrs on a challenging taildragger.
After starting a family I found aircraft hire expensive so decided to get a CPL.
Had the hours, just had to work around the syllabus.
Got the CPL and the school was able to give me charter and bank run flying on the side. Whilst bank run flying, I virtually trained myself for an instrument rating.
Got the instrument rating and carried on casual flying with little cost to me.
As time went by, circumstances changed and I was left figuring out what to do to continue with free flying. Got myself an Instructor rating using 2 mentors who had all the experience in the world.
Years later and circumstances changed again and it was time to purchase my first aircraft. I could no longer afford to write out big cheques for aircraft hire.
What to buy?.... the smallest and cheapest....i.e. a Corby Starlet.
Unfortunately during the test flight the Corbys engine would cut out on landing every time so I declined and went home.
The cheque for the Corby was burning a hole in my pocket.
I heard about a chap who specialized in sourcing aircraft from the USA and importing same to Australia. We exchanged pleasantries and he agreed to source something for me.
What I got was a rare vintage aircraft, and an absolute classic to boot, for the pricely sum of $12,000 USD. Much more or course landed on the Australian register.
Costs and charges? who cares. I do not do the sums.
Biggest operating cost for me is fuel. Insurance is approx. $2K Annual Mtnce is less than $2K. Hangarage?...was getting expensive so I built my own.
The only trap is unscheduled mtnce e.g. voltage regulators falling over, alternators etc. My battery cost $1600 including freight from USA . The last one lasted 5 years and I will do my best to see the current one lasts as long.
I am now on my third aircraft. As I said its all about the passion.
I had a friend who owned a nice taildragger with warbird history. He certainly had more money than me. He did the ownership cost sums and promptly sold the aircraft. Would have been better off trading his late model Mercedes for a Toyota.
In my opinion aircraft purchased in the US are in much better condition and there is much more to choose from. Cant go wrong with a good C172 (check sids) and the Piper Archer is an honest aircraft. I am so twisted and bent I think a Piper Arrow is sexy from some angles.
To answer your other questions grab a copy of the ERSA which will show which airfields charge landings, which require PPR etc. Strips owned by mining companies are usually difficult to use.
Parking and hangarage at country aerodromes is usually no problem, its a matter of talking to the right people. Registration cost? ...nil as far as I know.
No enroute fees for VFR...not much service either. ATC may charge a terminal fee if you land. Avgas is approx. $2.20 per litre, varies a bit. ADSB not required for VFR but CASA likes the idea of you voluntarily fitting one.
A company in the US LEVIL has brought out a device, super cheap but I don't know if it meets Australian specs for a cheap VFR ADSB as yet.
To be quite frank if I had my own strip on my own property I would not tell anyone about it. Just use it privately,,,,why ask for trouble.
I could go on, but hope this helps. Its about the PASSION and PRIDE of OWNERSHIP

[fury308]

Great post The sod, thanks for the time and effort!!
fury...

[fujii]

If you do go ahead and purchase an aircraft, it’s like having a swimming pool in summer, you suddenly have new friends. They will want to hire/borrow it dirt cheap without any idea of the real cost. Then there are others who will ask to go for a ride. These aren’t worth starting the engine for. When you fly you want to do what you want. It’s okay to ask someone to go with you but they need to know you are flying it for your enjoyment, not theirs. A sixty degree bank may be normal for you whereas it can scare the crap out of a non-pilot.

[StickWithTheTruth]

I just checked my records for my 18 year aviation spend. I keep very detailed records.

Hangar $62,000.
Insurance $8,900 (weren't always fully insured)
Physical aircraft outlay, inc appreciation and depreciation across five aircraft $48,000*
Fuel $48,250
Maintenance, overhaul + parts, tyres etc $11,800 (owner maintenance) - This figure is very low and it is correct.
Airways charges and landing fees $1,380

*Current aircraft value $60,000 (I made money on 2 of them)

$123,840 in total, not including aircraft purchase, but including fuel.

$273,000 to hire for the same hours at an average rate across 5 types.

[longrass]

I just checked my records for my 18 year aviation spend. I keep very detailed records.

Hangar $62,000.
Insurance $8,900 (weren't always fully insured)
Physical aircraft outlay, inc appreciation and depreciation across five aircraft $48,000*
Fuel $48,250
Maintenance, overhaul + parts, tyres etc $11,800 (owner maintenance) - This figure is very low and it is correct.
Airways charges and landing fees $1,380

*Current aircraft value $60,000 (I made money on 2 of them)

$123,840 in total, not including aircraft purchase, but including fuel.

$273,000 to hire for the same hours at an average rate across 5 types.

Really appreciate this post mate, thank you.

[StickWithTheTruth]

I received a phone call so I pressed submit a little early.

If I had to pay a LAME the figures would be quite different. There would be 20 extra annuals in there to budget for. I also did very well on my aircraft purchases, one I picked up for 78k and sold for $93k and another for 28k and sold for $42k... that doesn't happen often and it wasn't by accident.

It would only take one poor purchasing decision to absolutely destroy those figures above and kill off cost savings of owning an aircraft!

I could have done it for less by buying an older 172 and keeping the same aircraft for 20 years, but that could go either way with unexpected corrosion or similar. If it had a new engine I'd still be on the same one. I should have posted that the hours flown here are approximately 1700. I didn't want the same aircraft for 20 years and I didn't want a 172 so I went down another path. In hindsight it may have been a good idea, however my fuel bill would have been close to double that of above.

Once you go and spend more on the aircraft purchase on something left field you're on your own with costs, like a Bonanza or light twin... costs will skyrocket by comparison.

[fury308]

Thanks fujii and SWTT. Much appreciated!
fury...