Corporate Jet Charter in Australia

[Bizjetaus]

Hi friends,

I know it's a difficult question, but the more I look into it, the more I realise how difficult it is to get into corporate jet charter in Australia. I'm interested in pursuing a career in the aforementioned industry and was wondering if there is anyone here who can shed some light on how to get into the business? Especially mid-size to ultra-long-range jets? I know there isn't much of a business for corporate flying in Australia, but I'm just keen to find a way in, and possibly move elsewhere? Any help would be greatly appreciated! :)

[Petropavlovsk]

It's actually quite easy.


Make contact with all the operators, and apply to their website on line applications etc.
The operators can be easily found via searching the CASA aircraft registration web site. Australian Aviation, monthly magazine, has an annual listing of all biz-jets in Australia and their operators.
It would help that you have a few thousand hours, jet time, a one or two type ratings on the type you are seeking employment.

[Bizjetaus]

Thanks, Petropavlovsk! :) The only catch is acquiring the jet time and the type ratings. How can one best align themselves for a job? Would one best pay for their own type rating, or is that frowned upon in this kind of business? Thank you :)

[Band a Lot]

It is difficult because there is essentially no biz jet market in Australia.

There are a few Australians with private jets and they do charter them but not often and fully crewed, as I understand.

Most international charter is far cheaper to carry out off shore, for same reasons as booking your airline ticket offshore.

[Bedder believeit]

Lies, damned lies, and statistics, and then there's people like Band a lot.
Australia has a Bizet fleet approaching 200 which puts it in the top 10 operators of corporate jet aircraft in the world, more for instance than France, Italy, or Japan. The only countries with substantially more biz jets, are givens from North (US, Canada and Mexico) and South (Brazil) America. Sure, we're minuscule compared to the States, but so is everyone else.
If you can get your hands on last Septembers "Australian Aviation" magazine, there's a very good assessment of the status of the Australian corporate jet scene.
One thing that is of note is that Australia has a high percentage of mid to large corporate jets, the ones that you no doubt aspire to.
Good luck

[Bedder believeit]

Here's the top 25. Note that there are approximately 35 more bizjets operating in Aus, but not on the VH register. Some countries (like ships) are using registries of convenience, like Austria is for Russia, And Hong Kong and Macau for China
Position Registered Country No. of Aircraft
1 United States 12,051
2 Brazil 764
3 Mexico 704
4 Canada 483
5 Germany 387
6 Isle of Man 264
7 Austria 244
8 United Kingdom 241
9 China 203
10 Venezuela 168
11 South Africa 160
12 Australia 154
13 Argentina 142
14 India 140
15 Portugal 138
16 France 132
17 Switzerland 123
18 Bermuda 117
19 Cayman Islands 114
20 Turkey 110
21 Spain 100
22 Italy 99
23 Denmark 62
24 United Arab Emirates 61
25 Saudi Arabia 56

[BNEA320]

It is difficult because there is essentially no biz jet market in Australia.

There are a few Australians with private jets and they do charter them but not often and fully crewed, as I understand.

Most international charter is far cheaper to carry out off shore, for same reasons as booking your airline ticket offshore.get real. It's not cheaper booking your airline ticket offshore & who would want to do that anyway. Hard to solve a problem if book it offshore.

[Band a Lot]

Of the 16,000ish aircraft registered in Australia only 154 are Bizjets.

If the other 35 are not Australian registered then it is likely the pilots hold foreign licences. M-ATAR would have been one of those and Clive is not using that much anymore.

But as you see it is a very small market (number) that requires a very small number of pilots to service.

[Band a Lot]

Ok I have never had an issues solving a problem, by booking my flights from Singapore.

I have just searched for you.

Darwin to Singapore return just over $300 (in 3 months time) Dethstar


Pre booked on the net is-
Singapore to London return $1205 (Qantas)


That's just over $1500.


Tried on Qantas web page by coincidence, it also goes via Singapore.


Return is $3600 for same dates.


So it really is cheaper and same airline except Darwin Singapore! Oh dam that's actually operated by JETSTAR.


Same thing $2,100 cheaper.

[Bedder believeit]

Of the 250,000 odd registered "N" numbered aircraft in the States there are about 12,000 odd biz jets. Sounds about the same ratio to me. I would add that I'd be most surprised if the long ranging "large" bizjets such as Global's are more predominant here. In Australia (and I can't prove it) most bizjets earn a crust for a living. We don't have the large numbers of small jets that private individuals haul around the sky like they do in North America, and many of those types are hangar Queens. My original attack on you was your sweeping statement that "essentially there's no business jet market in Australia" to which I reiterate that yes, the American market is huge, but on a "rest of the world " basis, Australia more than pokes its head above the parapet. Anyway, who gives a sh#t

[Band a Lot]

These are both booked via Qantas (I don't often use them) but it is the same for all International airlines operating in Australia.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/na2v0vj4jidgyed/Screenshot%202017-05-14%2017.31.46.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qge3yuvbdkuqtqg/Screenshot%202017-05-14%2017.40.05.png?dl=0

[601]

then it is likely the pilots hold foreign licences

That is a pretty broad statement.

Most of the foreign registered aircraft that I had involvement with were crewed by Oz pilots who had both Aust and foreign certificates and ratings.

Was a bit tricky sometimes with customs etc.

[Band a Lot]

The problem getting into the market is the fact it is small. In comparison or any other way, it is small numbers with high competition.

Of all this type of flying I think it is more who you know. As crews will often fly together with not a lot of rotation - the crew will have a larger say than normal>

Years ago in Africa many a pilot got an endorsement on a Citation to be a "required" co-pilot and who ever could fit into the required flight dates and times jumped in the R/H seat. They got the endorsement if they were on the in crowd in that city.

[Band a Lot]

601, that was for the OP,

Due to Australia's costs offshore might be better options - and the foreign licence is the required licence to have, even if granted from an AU one.

If only operating in Australia a VH rego maybe ok, but if you are operating in several countries. Better money is often offshore.

This is highlighted by my costs of buying Qantas tickets in Australia vs Singapore, that seems to have no comment reply to my original post/comment - funny that.

[Ixixly]

Band a Lot, what are your tickets meant to prove? One is Singapore - Dubai - Heathrow - Dubai - Singapore and your second one is Darwin - Singapore - Dubai - Gatwick - Dubai - Singapore - Darwin and the dates are different as well?

Oh and having your email address on display at the top isn't exactly a great idea either....

[Band a Lot]

Well they can not be the same date as per Jetstar flights out of Darwin - it takes a day either side.

They are the cheapest on offer by both web sites, we were taking cost - I thought!!!!!


Oh email sorry, it is only a Pprune one "Band a Lot" required a new one.

Point is it is cheaper and you did not read that it was $300 to get to Singapore - read again please.

[Ixixly]

I still don't get your point Band A Lot, of course it's cheaper, it involves an entire leg difference, operates on different days (Monday vs Sunday) and one goes to Gatwick whilst the other goes to Heathrow?

What is your point exactly?

[Band a Lot]

Ok give me a destination and a date, both go via the sand pit and one will require a "Jetstar booking" so yes I need to book 2 flights to save about $2,000.

1 = a return Darwin - Singapore around $300 = A Singapore, sandpit, pick your place London return at about $1,200.


The other is an onshore booking Darwin - London (sorry I did not pick a specific airport) and minimum cost is $3,660.

Now if very big on dates and stuff is vital in 3 months (I doubt) they both leave Darwin, both go Singapore, both go Dubai and both go London (sorry refer my airport location).

So explain Australia is = or even similar on costs using same airline?


As I said I will use other dates and times and shift the destination airport a few miles.

[Ixixly]

And this has what to do with Bizjets Band a Lot? You're still not making sense.... anyone else care to step in?

[Band a Lot]

It is cheaper to have a Bizjet sitting and or based offshore.

It is cheaper.


The point is CHEAPER.


Unless you are only doing Australian legs, then it may be a benefit to rego and have your jet onshore.

But in business often, a key factor is cost.

And offshore is a easy way to save many $1,000's in just on single ticket.

That has an effect on Bizjets and why folk don't "step in" to them, often in Australia the cost is high.

[Capt Fathom]

Most of the foreign registered aircraft that I had involvement with were crewed by Oz pilots who had both Aust and foreign certificates and ratings.
Yep!
Friend of mine flys a N Registered jet. Aussie owned, Aussie crewed, Aussie based.

[josephfeatherweight]

Friend of mine flys a N Registered jet. Aussie owned, Aussie crewed, Aussie based.
Indeed - plenty of us do just that.

[megan]

The other is an onshore booking Darwin - London (sorry I did not pick a specific airport) and minimum cost is $3,660You're not looking at the right web site. $1,369 with Philippine and $1,776 with Singapore early August.

[Lead Balloon]

How can an "Aussie owned" aircraft be on the N register?

I'm guessing the Aussie "owners" are really the beneficiaries of a trust, the trustee of which is a U.S incorporated entity?

[josephfeatherweight]

the trustee of which is a U.S incorporated entity?

That is correct.

[Lead Balloon]

So the "owner" is the US entity, not the Aussies.

[josephfeatherweight]

Yeah, it's like the house (some) of us live in - we don't really own it, the bank does...

[Lead Balloon]

Errrrm, no. Your name is on the title documents to the land on which your house was built, and therefore you are the legal owner of the land and house annexed to it. The bank registers a charge that prevents dealings without its mortgage being discharged.

An aircraft legally owned by a US trust entity is legally owned by the US trust entity. Otherwise the FAA would not allow the aircraft to remain on the N register. The Aussies are beneficial owners.

[josephfeatherweight]

Yes - you are of course correct.

How can an "Aussie owned" aircraft be on the N register?

I'm guessing the Aussie "owners" are really the beneficiaries of a trust, the trustee of which is a U.S incorporated entity?

Sounds like you already knew the answer to all that?!

[Lead Balloon]

I was merely trying to tease out why it ain't quite so simple for Aussies to own N-registered aircraft.

[Capt Fathom]

Meanwhile....
Back at the Ranch!

[Band a Lot]

You're not looking at the right web site. $1,369 with Philippine and $1,776 with Singapore early August.


To keep it simple I only used Qantas.

The Qantas Singapore price.

&

The Qantas Australia price.

It is similar but greater in the price difference in buying the likes of a iphone.

But that is common knowledge by most pilots and most long haul by the phones "offshore" even if they have battery problems!!!!

[Bedder believeit]

Bizjetaus are you confused?

[Tankengine]

To keep it simple I only used Qantas.

The Qantas Singapore price.

&

The Qantas Australia price.

It is similar but greater in the price difference in buying the likes of a iphone.

But that is common knowledge by most pilots and most long haul by the phones "offshore" even if they have battery problems!!!!

You do realise Qantas doesn't even fly some of the routes you mention?
Start talking codesharing and prices from different countries and of course you will get differences.
Try a travel agent forum for answers. ;)

[Left 270]

So if I understand this correctly, if i book my next European holiday with Q booked in Singapore, I'll get a job with an Oz based bizjet?

[josephfeatherweight]

So if I understand this correctly, if i book my next European holiday with Q booked in Singapore, I'll get a job with an Oz based bizjet?
Yes. As long as the bizjet is owned by a US entity.

[Ixixly]

Left 270 and joseph, also the Beneficial Owners of the Bizjet also have to be Australian.

[josephfeatherweight]

I'm starting to feel sorry for the OP... :(

[Ixixly]

I feel like he got his information AND some entertainment as well joseph :D

[rodney rude]

Ive got a red motorbike

[Left 270]

Well who would've thought little jets would be so easy? Ibiza here I come!

Any photos Rodney? ;)

[Band a Lot]

You do realise Qantas doesn't even fly some of the routes you mention?
Start talking codesharing and prices from different countries and of course you will get differences.
Try a travel agent forum for answers. ;)



Never use a travel agent, they own your booking till the first sector is ( has been ticketed (boarding pass issued) only after that if things go wrong you can have ANY say.

Before that the Flight Centres and the like own you and your ticket/s

[Ixixly]

Yeah, nothing more terrible than having a good travel agent in charge of your tickets who is willing and able to help you out with their experience and knowledge when things go wrong...

[Band a Lot]

Like Flight Centre ?

[Band a Lot]

You want their "risk management number?"

[Tankengine]

Never use a travel agent, they own your booking till the first sector is ( has been ticketed (boarding pass issued) only after that if things go wrong you can have ANY say.

Before that the Flight Centres and the like own you and your ticket/s

Comprehension?
Re read my post, I never said to use a travel agent.
None of this ranting about airfares is related to the thread title.

[Bizjetaus]

Thank you, everyone, for your...enthusiastic replies. :ok: If anyone has anyone has any information on getting into the jet charter industry in Australia, I would really appreciate a PM. Thank's to everyone who helped me out! :)

[nudie]

Thank you, everyone, for your...enthusiastic replies. :ok: If anyone has anyone has any information on getting into the jet charter industry in Australia, I would really appreciate a PM. Thank's to everyone who helped me out! :)

hey mate how did you go with this search? I noticed no one actually really told you how to get into it. What ratings endorsements and career path decisions would be required?? Thanks, I’m looking now where you were.

[rammel]

I see that this is an old thread, but here's my 2c worth. A lot of operators operate more than just jets, so another endorsement like a B200 may be worthwhile. Plus there are potentially more B200 jobs around while you're trying to get a jet job.. The operators I know of generally don't recruit straight on to a jet if the applicant has no jet experience, but they will upgrade someone from within the company. Also, unlike some airlines 250 hours most likely won't get you a corporate jet job.

I'd research all of the charter operators and see what types they operate and try to get into a jet via that route. It's also a very small industry where everyone knows someone who knows someone, so that's another hurdle to overcome. I would also research what jets are in Australia and the best resource for this would be the December edition of Australian Aviation as it has all the jet types and operators in one place, though by now there may be some additions.

If I had no endorsements and was going to buy myself an endorsement, I would probably get a Phenom 300 endorsement. The reason being is that there are a few in the country already and that they are a relatively new type oprerating in Australia, so the pilot pool I imagine is pretty small at the moment. But before this I would sound out the current operators to see if there is potentially a job for you.

I hope that this had helped and that others now add their advice.

[tio540]

I thought this was a simple answer. Apply to Cobham, fly RHS in the Challenger.

[bankrunner]

What sort of hours could you expect to fly at Cobham in the AMSA gig?

[zanthrus]

100-150 a year.