KA Standard COS...My experience

[Gaisha]

Having been on the standard contract for a couple of years now, I have realised that I made a terrible mistake...and now i regret it....
I was lured at the prospect of working for a legacy airline, one that provided a full package that would enable myself and my family to live comfortably in a vibrant city like hong kong. I, like many others in my position, looked at the remuneration package KA had to offer and jumped at the opportunity. I was ignorant. I researched the price of living in HK and thought to myself, although it wasn't extravagant, we could manage in the hope that my salary would increase year upon year and the company would increase our salaries in line with the ever increasing living costs in HK.
Boy was I wrong. No pay increase in the past 2 years while the price of living here has gone up 25% in the time i have been here. Rents are ridiculous...and the price of education has gone through the roof. Forget trying to send your child to a decent school as the debentures to get into anything comparable to the standard we are used to in Europe will not be covered by the company. ESF school rates have also sky rocketed. Independent schools obviously charge more.

The company gives us a special allowance of HK$21,300 for FO's and HK$32,000 for skippers. They do not call it a housing allowance (although everyone uses it to pay rent) because they know that it does not cover rental costs in HK, unless of course you live in a 500 sq ft apartment in DB or Tung Chung. The special allowance does not cover rentals for a family sized apartment.

The medical insurance is also sub standard and we have been trying to push for improvement for many years now with meagre results.

The rosters, in my opinion, are about the most unstable I've ever seen of any company and you will switch from early shifts to late shifts within the same week. You cannot plan anything on a day that you have to work. They OWN you on that day, regardless if you are doing earlies or lates.

The seniority system is a farce. Bidding for flights or vacation is not transparent and is only based on your first attempt. A second attempt at a bid will leave you in the same bidding pool as everyone else so where is seniority considered if you fail to gain any leave or flight pattern on the 1st attempt?


Whilst my overall wages are higher than my previous job, I am saving much less because of the high living costs in Hong Kong. Sure, I came here with EYES WIDE OPEN...but no amount of research can prepare you until you actually come here and see how expenses mount.

If you are single and plan on staying that way, the standard COS will be adequate and you'll live a humble life renting a small apartment...maybe a girlfriend or two....but if she gets pregnant and you decide to raise a family...don't expect to live the lifestyle that you are used to back home.....my guess is you'll take the free rating and go back home...something I am considering at the moment.

[TSIO540]

I joined a couple of years ago thinking the same thing but reality has corrected those thoughts!

My wife and I tried to do the economical thing by renting a modest apartment in Tung Chung but for the first 5 months there was one suicide per month, every month so we had to get out of there. Then we rented a village house elsewhere on Lantau but we soon found that the cost of maintaining a car and the lack of services in a remote area made life more difficult than we had anticipated so we began to have thoughts about getting out of the rental market and into our own place.

We subsequently had a go at buying a small flat in Mui Wo but as we were about to sign on the line we took a reality check... $3.7M for a s#%t hole that needed major renovation + 1$Million in stamp duty would have had us running at a loss for at least 10 years!

An option remains to have a boat which is pretty nice from what I've seen but the running costs are sky high. Excluding maintenance and an astronomical mortgage we are told we can expect to pay $17,000 per month just to park it; fair enough but we were really counting on salary keeping pace with inflation. It was just announced that fees are going up in one marina by 9.5% but KA offered us absolutely nothing this year... ZERO! When it comes to rent, rises of over 20% every 2 years are not unheard of.

If you are stuck flying a chieftain in the bush this may seem like a job that pays well but if you are flying anything decent with the hope of progression at any point, don't leave!

The pollution though better in summer can have you breathing air so thick you can barely see 3km!

Schools are horrendously expensive as they are run 'for profit' and the company will only give you 90% of the ESF rate which covers only about half the cost of sending kids to school in Discovery Bay.

Just getting your kid vaccinated can cost a fortune, a 3 month old set of vaccines us back $3500, its either that or spend one of your few days off to register at a clinic to then go on a waiting list to spend another day at the clinic to only get very basic (not the full spectrum recommended in Australia) jabs.

A trip to the hospital can be a nightmare in itself, public hospitals while cheap are nasty and hopeless except for the most severe cases; your alternative is to go to a private hospital where an overnight stay can cost you upwards of $20,000 that may not be covered by the pitiful KA medical scheme. Which means you are forced to shell out for "top up medical cover" and income protection at the cost of thousands of USD per year.

Doing basic living activities here takes a lot more time than you'd imagine; going on an errand to HK Island takes a minimum of half a day if you do only one thing, a full day if you do three stops. Just try and find an english remote control or real bread in a shop!

Buying any kind of kids equipment in HK is astronomically expensive here; you will pay at least 30-400% more than in Australia only to have it stolen if you leave it outside your door.

Grocery shopping for anything but China grown produce is eye wateringly expensive, cheese can set you back USD $10 for a 200g pack of cheese that has probably been warmed well above 4* during shipping so it will only last a week in your fridge. Don't get me started on the milk...it should be called 'malk'.

Sure if you economise you can make ends meet but why leave your home, family, friends and conveniences to just get by? Nearly everyone I know on this contract is making plans to leave HK.

If you are not a white male you can expect to get pretty rough treatment from the locals here, where the darker you are the lower you are on the social ladder. If you are not married you can't bring your SO here as HK doesn't recognise de facto spouses. If you are married here and he/she doesn't work here, just see what happens when they want a bank account; no matter your profession or how highly educated your spouse is, if you aren't employed in HK at that moment your occupation shall only be 'house wife'.

Take heed of the warnings about cost of living here and do not go expecting generous pay rises of the past as the reality of zero increase despite proven inflation bites harder and harder into your hard earnt cash.

[Yonosoy Marinero]

This will never be repeated enough...

And while we're at it, heads up to the prospective CX hires. Your lot will be the same, but even worse.

[TSIO540]

I enjoy it as much as being bumped off a KA flight by CX staff... what a shame flight crew aren't afforded a higher priority across the board.

[drfaust]

Look on the bright side. You get to bump some CX staff travellers off their own company flights! :E

Only less senior ones ;).

[swh]

Cx is the only airline in the world where staff from a subsidiary get on before they do.

[MPPCAG]

The only problem with that being we're not actually a subsidiary. The revenue all goes in to the one pot. IF as was suggested by the DPA back in 2006 we had been given ghost seniority numbers for staff travel the problem would not exist but of course the AOA were not interested back then and here today you have the result....

[TSIO540]

Cx is the only airline in the world where staff from a subsidiary get on before they do.

I don't know which subsidiary you are referring to as KA is not a subsidiary to CX... owned yes, but not subsidiary.

What do you suppose happens with Qantas, Jetstar, Qlink, VARA, VOZ, Virgin, Lufthansa, Austrian, Brussels, Germanwings, Eurowings, Air Dolomiti, & Swiss to name a few. There are plenty of CX staff bumping KA staff off the popular staff travel destinations like HKT & TPE.

[Freehills]

Meanwhile you can buy a ticket LON-SYD on EK/QF for 750 pounds, all taxes/ fees included.

[swh]

I don't know which subsidiary you are referring to as KA is not a subsidiary to CX... owned yes, but not subsidiary.

What do you suppose happens with Qantas, Jetstar, Qlink, VARA, VOZ, Virgin, Lufthansa, Austrian, Brussels, Germanwings, Eurowings, Air Dolomiti, & Swiss to name a few. There are plenty of CX staff bumping KA staff off the popular staff travel destinations like HKT & TPE.


From the annual report "Hong Kong Dragon Airlines Limited (“Dragonair”), a regional airline registered and based in Hong Kong, is a wholly owned subsidiary of Cathay Pacific"

There was no merger between CX and KA. KA continues to operate as an independent carrier under its own AOC, and its staff are not eligible for the same interline travel as CX because they work for a different airline.

Sorry your other analogy is plain wrong, subsidiaries of the other airlines you mentioned like QF and LH do not have the same priority for subsidiary airlines on the main carrier.

Dragonair don't even treat their own ground staff with the same travel priority, they get 31.

[Freehills]

I didn't intend to hijack this thread. Was just poking fun.
Back to the thread topic:

it's near impossible to live in HKG on CX/KA ever diminishing COS's

Raises an interesting question. Many other industries have left HK due to high costs. Maybe best if airlines here downsize/ disappear. Passengers and cargo still get to fly, pilots & engineers still have jobs in lower cost of living places, just management who have to go and find something else to do (and as no seniority system, not much hardship) No one tries to have a network airline based in Manhattan.

[Toruk Macto]

Worked at qantaslink and got date of joining priority on Qantas mainline . Maybe it's changed ?
National jet Cobden may not as not owned by Qantas .
Eastern and sunstate do as %100 owned by Qantas .
All called qantaslink
Happy to be corrected ?

[swh]

Cathay, Qantas and Qantaslink are all oneworld member airlines.

Qantas took over Network in 2011, their employees did not get DOJ with QF. Network like Dragon are not oneworld members, they are affiliates to the member airline.

[Captain Dart]

It's 'Cobham'. Cobden is a town in Victoria.

[Toruk Macto]

I'd suggest network will get date of joining on mainline when Qantas need something from them .

[swh]

Don't see how you would get that past Fair Work, there are so many workplace agreements that would be impacted.

[Toruk Macto]

We got advised staff travel was on date of joining one morning . Never asked for it , was never discussed with mainline . Moral was low in regionals at the time is only thing I can think of .

[rodney rude]

Now wouldn't you have thought that sometime in the recent past someone would have been kind enough to put a warning on Pprune that the C Scale on offer would make life in HK very difficult. Fancy these poor fellas getting to HK and now finding out just how poor the package really is...............


You just can't tell some people.

[swh]

We got advised staff travel was on date of joining one morning . Never asked for it , was never discussed with mainline . .

Maybe you personally never asked for it, can guarantee you there are KA captains that complained they were being beaten to a seat by a SO that had only been in the company 9 months.

Can guarantee you it was discussed by the DPA and it was one of the points that KA was going to go into CC over.

[Farman Biplane]

That's the way boys, keep fighting over the crumbs!
Management have just finished their second helping and are coming back for more. They really must be laughing at how easy it is to distract us. I would suggest both pilot groups start fighting for pie rather than crumbs.

HK is financially unsustainable with family and children at school, regardless of the package you are on. If you were not living here when hired, then the only reason you came was to make money quicker than you could elsewhere. That is now not possible, so what is the point of being in HK?

[azhkman]

Guys & Gals, it is every industry. Too many mainlanders coming across and paying cash for flats and school spaces, it is pricing out the middle class of HK. The French don't seem to have received the message as they are still arriving. But eventually, it will implode in itself--not sure when, but if the expat middle wave leaves in droves. Add to that the social tension in HK; other locations or back home start to look really good.

I've lived in Tung Chung for a year, I have not seen or heard about a suicide yet but not something I seek out either. 11 years in HK total.

Ending on a happier note, agree totally, if you are single, or DINKS. Come, enjoy yourselves.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Gaisha,

as long as people like you accept the offered conditions, as long as people like you do not leave, things will not improve.

Since years now you and many more before you are taking part in an unwinnable game:

you want to convince OTHERS not to join, but you want to stay YOURSELF.

I do not buy your story.

Two years ago ALL the information was there. Everything.

You saw the money back then and you see the money today. You could go back any time, but for a $ sacrifice. So you convince yourself to stay just a bit longer, just a few hours more, just for the command...

And so the race to the bottom continues..

[Gaisha]

Gaisha,

as long as people like you accept the offered conditions, as long as people like you do not leave, things will not improve.

Not sure what the reference "like you" is referring to... if you mean a pilot looking for work elsewhere in the hope to advance their career and be awarded with a remuneration package and salary increases in line with the CPI of Hong Kong then I assume I am like most of us here.

Since years now you and many more before you are taking part in an unwinnable game:

you want to convince OTHERS not to join, but you want to stay YOURSELF.

I do not buy your story.

You aren't the person I'm trying to convince so i could care less if you buy my story or not. It seems you have problems comprehending. (something I've notices in previous threads..I hope you aren't a pilot) As i mentioned before, I was considering leaving.

Two years ago ALL the information was there. Everything.

You saw the money back then and you see the money today. You could go back any time, but for a $ sacrifice. So you convince yourself to stay just a bit longer, just a few hours more, just for the command...

And so the race to the bottom continues..

The information has always been there, but as i mentioned, like many others who come to HK in search of the dream, its not simply about crunching the numbers. One has to live here, day to day, to realise all of the expenses.

Just because we know the facts and are provided information before hand, does not mean we can't continue to push for better contracts or wages. Since the A scale, pilots were constantly battling it out with management in the hope that their earnings would be increased...and they succeeded.
When Expat B were in contract compliance, they too knew about the numbers and the cost of living in HK.....after 35 captains left in a matter of 8 weeks, it resulted in management realising it can't continue and they ended up increasing their remuneration by 40%.

By the way, those of you still bitter about the staff travel deal...build a bridge...or post in the relevant thread....Sure, KA pilots are not able to get a higher priority on CX flights, but it works both ways. Pilots aren't the only ones who make up staff travel..there are a lot of back office staff who get it too and they aren't interested in going to europe or australia but rather China or S.E asia.....its a bigger picture than just us pilots.

[Sam Ting Wong]

As long as people like you not only relocate all the way from Europe, but only "consider" leaving, what do you expect will happen to your conditions of service in the future? You answered that question yourself, only when pilots actually did leave things changed.

Is that really so hard to "comprehend"?


PS I don't blame KA employees for the travel policy change. It was not their decision. Which is why I never mentioned it in any of my posts.

[TheGreenDragon]

Today's midday ATIS 10 th April says it all : POLLUTION

ARRIVAL

HONG KONG ARRIVAL INFORMATION K AT TIME 0406
ARRIVAL RUNWAY 25R
WIND 280 DEG 06 KT

VISIBILITY 1500m
RVR 1100m

CLOUD FEW 1200FT
IN HAZE
TEMPERATURE 29 DEWPOINT 24

Guys n gals, they may pay you here, they may " give" you a rating and they may eventually promote you, but no one can be prepared for the effect of living your life in grey polluted air . There are no green views just grey everywhere , for 80% of the year.
You do get accustomed to it though , if that helps. My kid coughed throughout the winter months, so I'm fearful of the long term effects.

Unfortunately , Im unable to move from here as Im not going to start again at the bottom of a seniority list. Im sucking it up, literally .

[TheGreenDragon]

From todays SCMP , the main English language daily :

" A blanket of heavy pollution smothered Hong Kong’s biggest business and shopping districts on Wednesday.

Citizens braving the sweltering heat also had to put up with pollution levels categorised as “very high” in Central, Causeway Bay and Mong Kok.

According to the Environmental Protection Department, as of 10am the air quality health index had reached 8 at roadside stations in the two districts, indicating a very high health risk. Roadside stations in Mong Kok and general stations in Tuen Man and Tai Po reported AQHI readings of 7, indicating a high health risk"

[TSIO540]

https://www.hongkongfp.com/2017/05/10/smog-alert-serious-air-pollution-hong-kong-airport-levels-exceed-maximum/

[Yonosoy Marinero]

HongKong Air Pollution: Real-time PM2.5 Air Quality Index (AQI) (http://aqicn.org/city/hongkong/)

Around 250 in Tung Chung today... Looks like we're giving Beijing a run for it!
:}

[TheGreenDragon]

ADFUS - your comment is understandable, but Im guessing you are not a parent?

The smog may have health implications, but they are unmeasurable at this stage.
More damage would be done to my family were daddy to not have a job or not have the resources to be able to fund decent schooling and child activities . Being unemployed as a parent is something that would devastate a family .

Smog , yes agreed, its not ideal, and is always present . But so is dengue fever and malaria, foot and mouth . This is perhaps overlooked when considering the health risks of living in hk .

At least its relativly safe here. I make the choice to stay. As many 1000s of expatriate parents do. Im sure we all have a collective worry about our chosen place of work and the poor environment.

However, I wont be here forever and another few days of the pollution levels like we've experienced over the last week may accelerate my decision to relocate. But the options are surprisingly limited.

[Krone]

I know the boys in Dubai will moan n groan about life in EK. However , heres an interesting comparison between HK and Dubai and although you get less $$ in Dubai it really goes much further.

Tung Chung , a favourite town of the pilot community. Adjacent to the airport. I had a look at square foot magazine, and picked a fairly typical example

Price: HK$ 5.7 M
Rent: HK$ 15,500
Gross Area: 648 (sq.ft.)
Saleable Area: 492 (sq.ft.)
Bedrooms2
Bathrooms1
- See more at: http://www.squarefoot.com.hk/mobile/property/19987626#sthash.Fnsx4EuJ.dpuf

The is around 2.6 million AED.

So Looking at , say, Dubai marina , for HK$ 5.7 mil you can purchase

Bhomes.com lists:

2 Bedroom Apartment,
AED 2,300,000Dubai Marina
( HK$4.8mil)
Approx size1,825 sq.ft
Reference NoAP287314

Looks like a comfortable apartment. Unlike in HK.

Or ...

AED 2,490,000
2 Bedroom Apartment + Maids
Approx size1,950 sq.ft
The Waves Tower B
Location Dubai Marina

The stamp duty alone on the above HK apartment would be $1 million to a none permanent ID holder, which could buy you 50% of an apartment in Dubai Marina !!!

1 Bedroom Apartment
AED 1 Million
Marina Crown
Location Dubai Marina
Approx.size 750 sq.ft.
Ref No. AP236378

A standard contract pilot in KA gets 21000 hk$
month housing . This in the long term is not going to sustain any career. You cannot establish roots easily and therfore will never really settle.

And the fact that B scale pilots can claim upto nearly $HK100,000 rental allowance or HK$ 72000 for a mortgage will soon pi$$ you off !

[Trafalgar]

Krone. You say the $$$ are less in Dubai. Not true. Career earnings in EK are nearly double what they would be at CX for a new joiner. Especially taking into account the time to command. The AOA did an interesting spreadsheet on this a few years ago.

[Gnadenburg]

The DPA advises all members to take out additional medical insurance. We have had a number of distressing cases of members and family not being adequately covered by the company insurance.

So the first 2-5% of your salary needs to come out and pay for proper medical insurance. It peeves a lot of people off, even the tightest of pilots, but to not do so is a great risk with a number traumatic cases.

Resignations are on the rise again. But note they are B scale resignations.

[Trafalgar]

So, the company drags pilots and their families half way around the world, but does not take the responsibility to provide adequate care for them. Disgusting (and that applies to CX as well).

[AQIS Boigu]

Plenty of people slag off Dubai without ever having been or lived there.

It is a no-brainer for any C scaler despite what STW says.


I know the boys in Dubai will moan n groan about life in EK. However , heres an interesting comparison between HK and Dubai and although you get less $$ in Dubai it really goes much further.

Tung Chung , a favourite town of the pilot community. Adjacent to the airport. I had a look at square foot magazine, and picked a fairly typical example

Price: HK$ 5.7 M
Rent: HK$ 15,500
Gross Area: 648 (sq.ft.)
Saleable Area: 492 (sq.ft.)
Bedrooms2
Bathrooms1
- See more at: Tung Chung Apartments / Flats / Units to Sale - Coastal Skyline Blocks 1-3 & 5-6 - Ref # 19987626 - Squarefoot (http://www.squarefoot.com.hk/mobile/property/19987626#sthash.Fnsx4EuJ.dpuf)

The is around 2.6 million AED.

So Looking at , say, Dubai marina , for HK$ 5.7 mil you can purchase

Bhomes.com lists:

2 Bedroom Apartment,
AED 2,300,000Dubai Marina
( HK$4.8mil)
Approx size1,825 sq.ft
Reference NoAP287314

Looks like a comfortable apartment. Unlike in HK.

Or ...

AED 2,490,000
2 Bedroom Apartment + Maids
Approx size1,950 sq.ft
The Waves Tower B
Location Dubai Marina

The stamp duty alone on the above HK apartment would be $1 million to a none permanent ID holder, which could buy you 50% of an apartment in Dubai Marina !!!

1 Bedroom Apartment
AED 1 Million
Marina Crown
Location Dubai Marina
Approx.size 750 sq.ft.
Ref No. AP236378

A standard contract pilot in KA gets 21000 hk$
month housing . This in the long term is not going to sustain any career. You cannot establish roots easily and therfore will never really settle.

And the fact that B scale pilots can claim upto nearly $HK100,000 rental allowance or HK$ 72000 for a mortgage will soon pi$$ you off !

[Gnadenburg]

So, the company drags pilots and their families half way around the world, but does not take the responsibility to provide adequate care for them. Disgusting (and that applies to CX as well).

Exact words of an OT&P Doctor yesterday during a consultation.

[Krone]

Traf, I was referring to KA standard contract ( C scale ) guys. CX SOs earn considerably less that ka DEFOs and no doubt would be better off in the short term in EK.

No one can prepare a new joiner for how poor the quality of flats in Hong Kong are, especially those rancid shoe boxes guys are happy to call home in Tung Chung/ Olympic.

Bring your mates over from virgin or BA or Qantas and they will pi$$ their pants at what low standards of living C scale pilots are accepting . And paying through the nose for it all .

[Trafalgar]

I hear you. If you objectively consider the difference in career progress, and associated career earnings, EK is a no brainer. It has become impossible for anyone other than a young single 'brushwinger' to survive in HK. Once you start to consider the implications of a proper life/career (ie: wife/children/home ownership/medical/retirement), there is nothing CX offers that can answer that question. Ultimately it's up to the 'brushwingers' to decide whether each day they stay at CX is a day wasted that can be better applied elsewhere. Many of the C scalers here today will desperately wish they had given this the consideration it deserves. :ugh:

[TheGreenDragon]

It is highly possible that new joiners in Dragon / CX are here only because they were unable to secure a career elsewhere?

Both companies have dropped their experience standards for new joiners. As far as KA goes, training support has being significantly increased to allow lower ability crew to pass their checks and indeed the current PC LOEs are diluted down ( made easier) depending on the experience level of the crew ( FO-JFO-SO). In times gone by , all pilots were expected to complete the same competency checks . Not now .

[kahaha]

At least the original poster has put his hand up and said " I got it wrong KA is not what I thought it was going to be"

Its easy to be blinded by the $$$ signs in the adverts, especially Brits with a 10:1 with the pund now. And 15% tax.

But we all know its smoke and mirrors to het you in . Then theres the "training" beast to tame. Good luck with that. Its the same block heads who were incharge 10 yrs ago still spouting their inane platitudes based on archaic British Midland SOPs. And Kegworth was such an example of how not to operate, yet we have one of those guys from that era as training manager. I mean WTF !!!!!!

[tsimbeit]

Pilots left in droves already in the days of the old expat A-scale and later on the expat B-scale.

Similar arguments, much better elsewhere....

Many pilots loved it and stayed for 30+ years and could never get enough.
What has changed?
Nothing, we are all individuals.

Sadly, almost everyone that left regret their decision......!

[kahaha]

All those that left regret it ?
Thats so wishful thinking, and not true.
How about the guy in germany driving his GT3 , when before he was on the mid-levels bus?

How about the guy whos now B777 BA, you know he regrets leaving ?

How about the guy at Air Tanker , living in the beautiful home counties , having taken 30million from his house in cash. Hes regretting it too?

Point take we are all individuals, but dont tar everyone with your personal issues brush, and why you personall wanna ( have to) stay.

[tsimbeit]

Kahaha, read it again, sadly ALMOST everyone that left regret their decision.

Pilots left in droves already in the days of the old expat A-scale and later on the expat B-scale.

Similar arguments, much better elsewhere....

Many pilots loved it and stayed for 30+ years and could never get enough.
What has changed?
Nothing, we are all individuals.

Sadly, almost everyone that left regret their decision......!

[kahaha]

Almost all ... well thats as good as saying 95% lol

Anyway , lets put semantics aside.

I dont think any of the guys in Air China , living in Oz on tax free $US22000 a month have any regrets . How many there now , 10 or so?
And the one guy who did come back to KA lost his CAAC medical , but openly says he would still be there if his licence wasn't taken away.

Oh , how about the new A320 skipper who left last week to go to Virgin Atlantic . Bet he really regrets it.

The only poor b#%#tards who regret it were Sacked so had no choice. The guy in Fiji airways comes to mind .

[tsimbeit]

Kahaha,

How many of these guys were expat A-scalers?

The expat B-scalers.., I wish I could agree....

The pilots that loved it and stayed for 30+ years did extremely well.

Upgrade from a Boxster S in Hong Kong to a GT3 in Germany, WOW!!

[Krone]

A few more for the list ,
Theres the FO who went to Norwegian B787 a few months ago and an FO who went last week to Hong Kong Airlines. The A350 long haul awaits. Sounds terrible.

And then theres a bunch of early retirees . Better that than be carried off in a box.

[kahaha]

The elephant in the room for Dragon is the amount of guys who have unfortunately contracted some form of terminal illness. There are several guys who have being diagnosed with 3rd or 4 th stage cancer who were very active and previously healthy.

Wether or not its the job, the toxic environment or the cardiac inducing diet from working in China, no one knows.

Little do the company care. The level of cancer cover covered by the companies medical insurance is laughable. They give the guys their 120 days sick leave then stop their pay and cancel their employment pass . Nice caring and so thoughtful . Wannabes , please beware , this is the reality of 85 hours short haul in china .

[tsimbeit]

How about the pilots who have been flying for some 45 years, the last 30 years with KA/CX and still 100% fit.

[Trafalgar]

Tsim. There is always going to be those individuals with cast iron genetics. They would probably survive nuclear war. However, for most human beings, the lifestyle and environment of this job can and will probably prove dangerous if not lethal. Then there is the appalling fact that the company can cut you off from medical care when you are at your sickest and most vulnerable. Are you trying to justify that?

[spleener]

Gaisha,

as long as people like you accept the offered conditions, as long as people like you do not leave, things will not improve.

Since years now you and many more before you are taking part in an unwinnable game:

you want to convince OTHERS not to join, but you want to stay YOURSELF.

I do not buy your story.

Two years ago ALL the information was there. Everything.

You saw the money back then and you see the money today. You could go back any time, but for a $ sacrifice. So you convince yourself to stay just a bit longer, just a few hours more, just for the command...

And so the race to the bottom continues..

Exactly STW. Exactly. Welcome to the real world.:D
Please give this some consideration on the next occasion you're expounding the virtues of signing an inferior contract for short term $$$$ gain.
Perhaps you are losing your naivete? :ok:

[airdualbleedfault]

SWH completely wrong, a Network pilot that joined 2011 will bump any QF mainline pilot that joins QF post 2011, that's on domestic flights. International flights depends on rank and DOJ.

Kahaha, you forgot to mention the number of KA pilots that have actually died in the last 6 years

[tsimbeit]

Pilots have been signing inferior contracts for some 20 years, with the introduction of the B-scale.

Some of us will never make 60, flying or not flying, nothing new there.

[kahaha]

In the last 6 years , No idea

In the last 4 years , up to 7 have died , ( old guys ) 4 are currently undergoing treatment .

May god be with them .

[Gnadenburg]

At the DPA AGM it was reported that Dragonair pilots are the highest industry claimants for loss of license insurance. It's all random, no clusters evidently.

Our medical scheme could be partly to blame. If you have the DPA's advised extra cover, you get your choice of good medical care. I've seen guys go through the panel system ( which is far more limited than CX ) and end up with a lot of complications. That said, and it's a typical unrealised madness as we rapidly approach minimum crewing levels, our cheap medical scheme seems to be a great way of getting a lot of time off work as you join the queue for medical care. And anecdotally, incorrect diagnosis and treatments not uncommon with our back-street clinics.

The illness rates at KA also make a mockery of the CX pilot they sent over to deskill and drive inefficiencies into our operation with purposeless SOPs, who claimed fatigue is non-existent at KA. Sure, if you fly once a week with a gentleman's sign-on and with every effort made to avoid flying into China, your perspective of the KA operation is slewed a long way from the realities.

Perhaps the managers coming back on the line will help crewing levels a little but it seems we are training for attrition despite a training manager claiming all was A - OK a month back ! Maybe he will have a fresher perspective as a line driver. Advertised command vacancies don't seem to correspond with the odd congratulatory comment of a 4 Bar promotion on the weekly flyer. And if you add to that the resignations and broken bodies after about July and we are full steam ahead for a crewing crisis.

[Gaisha]

Can't wait for the managers to return to line flying. Or should i say ex-managers. That's probably why many captains are getting more standby's these days rather than 100% call out. When I got here I was staggered by the number of titles they had at the management level. The best was...Flying Training Manager..and Manager Flying training....I know its been posted in another thread...but we have as many managers as aircraft....hopefully with the ex managers flying the line from now on they will recognise the need to boost up the medical insurance as a result of operating into China all the time. Maybe we'll see an improvement in the future....but i'm not hopeful.

[bringbackthe80s]

Anotherday just to give some perspective, not all but some LCCs in Europe and US pay very well to be honest and after some time they give you good bases and very stable roster patterns...you usually fly 700 hrs a year however the single days can be very long. GA in Hong Kong pays way better than any airline job as well, just in case you insisted on not wanting to go back to a LCC.

I would still choose Long Haul on a beautiful modern bird out of Hong Kong if you ask me...but just to say that valid options are there for you and your family, no need to stick it and complain if you don't like it.

[Trafalgar]

Anotherday. What is your problem? I have just read your posts on the different threads. You like to agitate, are incredibly negative and seem to enjoy trying to depress and demoralise the pilot group. Oh, just like our management. Makes one wonder....

[Gnadenburg]

I doubt he's agitating anyone here from KA Trafalgar, as his comments seem irrelevant to KA issues. Can't you guys drag him back onto your own threads and have him focus on his own contract compliance campaign?

Guys can't leave? Our guys are leaving and as I mentioned they are getting sick too. Also, despite so much of our operation being low cost and our competitors being low cost, our training models haven't the ability to adapt to commercial necessities nor the real world. Pilots are not just failing commands they are not putting their hands up- often capable pilots too who have the credentials but fear they will match up with a bad trainer and be unaccountably scrubbed. I don't know how institutions can lose a hearts and minds campaign with such a major professional advancement. Actually, I do know why.

None of these factors are being managed and it is only going to get worse as CX integrates management with little awareness of our operation- send another CX exchange pilot over but this time fly our real operation and see the problems !

I actually don't want my colleagues to leave. If my colleagues leave I just work harder. I won't get a payrise from attrition at this stage and it is only if Local Contract Captains leave in increasing numbers that much will happen. Unlike Anotherday I'm not in contract compliance. If I were, our operation would be devastated without our goodwill. KA pilots too , have a habit of when being told where the door is, of making for that exit.

There is nothing relevant in Anotherdays comments

[Trevor the lover]

TSIMBEIT
To say ALMOST all regret leaving - don't need to be a scientist to realise the only way to quantify this is to do a survey. Hard facts.


That's survey will say that I left KA and have zero regrets. Back in home country, clean air, food I can trust is not injected, room for kids to run and play etc etc. Don't get me wrong - I think HK is fabulous, but it does have problems.


Interested to read a bunch of pilots have died - can anyone shed light. Apart from the very sad loss of Vince, I haven't heard of others.

[Trafalgar]

Anotherday. Where is your management office located after the carnage yesterday. I imagine you were probably promoted.....corner office?

[Gnadenburg]

Saying, as some on here do, that you left and went home to your country of origin with a bucket of cash that you made from working at KA. That's not really the same as leaving because you don't like the place. If that was the case then you should never have joined in the first place.
KA would need 100 pilots a year to leave, that's never going to happen, the money's too good for 99.9999999% of you.


Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Guy's I know left because they were fed up with KA or Hong Kong or the operation or all of those. Many didn't leave super wealthy and they knew what they were giving up.

Yes, the grass is greener, and over a beer there will of course be the odd regret but guess what? How quickly they forget! And knowing these guys, they would not have stomached further deterioration in the job nor especially the club mentality that's probably about to get smashed by CX.

[drfaust]

In my view the crucial problem for all (newer) expat pilots based in HKG, with any of the carriers that don't have 'housing' is the inability to get on the property ladder.

The non perm. resident stamp duty and 50% deposit rule with the current prices makes thing impossible to even look at. Which brings you to renting, long term.

And then you have 3 kids and need a big place to not go crazy and you find yourself financially independent years later than should be necessary with this job and these payscales.

So it's not all about the company, the government system is fundamentally causing newer expat pilots to be part of the have nots in Hong Kong. From here, everyone makes their own bed in my view. If you can hack it, stay, if it's not worth it .. leave, commute? I don't have the answer and everyone will solve it in their own way.

[Captain Dart]

QANTAS pilots don't have to live in the middle of Sydney (I could not think of anything worse, apart from HKG). The QF pilot will not be a 737 FO for ever. He is under First World labour law and breathing clean air. He can bid onto other bases, live on a farm or in a small country town, as many do now, where prices are very affordable. From what I hear, QF staff travel is quite good. A good many CX boys and girls have already voted with their feet.

Your analogy is quite bizarre. Enjoy the smog.

[Trafalgar]

Anotherday. We get it, you are from management and are desperate to try and undermine the anger and frustration of the CX pilot group. Regardless, your arguments are specious, laughable and help make the point that our management are clueless as to the mindset of the pilots. Keep thrashing around at the periphery of the discussion, and know that at best, you just add some contrast that helps clarify the points that the rest of us are trying to make. :D

[drfaust]

And just for the sake of clarity, I am not saying a new joiner FO needs to be able to afford a big flat in a prime real estate location in down town Hong Kong.

My point is that, at least for the first 7 years, with the regulations that are in place, a new joiner FO is condemned to paying off someone elses mortgage. Despite easily being able to afford one on his own on a monthly basis.

He is essentially blocked from the market. This is completely unrelated to actual salary paid and as you could read in my post, it goes for all airlines in Hong Kong. That was the issue I was raising.

[Trafalgar]

Anotherday. Never have I come across a regular contributor so transparently and obviously management. We get enough of your type of drivel every friday in the Flyer. Please, do yourself a favour and stop embarrassing yourself. :hmm: