IFR Question

[xxRED BARONxx]

Hi all, quick question regarding some wording regarding maneuvering for NPA and APV (non circling) approaches.

AIP ENR 1.5-5

Alignment with the runway centreline. Maneuvering to align the aircraft with the runway centreline can be undertaken when:

- Within the circling area,
- Visual reference is maintained,
- Continuously in sight of ground or water.

Just to clarify do you need to meet all the 3 criteria above or do you only need to meet one? I'm not sure why it doesn't just say AND, or OR after each one

[AerocatS2A]

Have to have them all.

[Slatye]

Surely it only makes sense with an "and" between each one. If it was an "or" then that would imply that as long as you can see the ground and/or sea then you can maneuver to align with the runway centreline ... regardless of whether you can see the runway or are anywhere near the airfield.

That section is poorly written. The one above (1.8.2, Descent Below the Straight-in MDA) is much better. It specifies that the descent may happen only when A, B, and C are true. Section 1.8.4 lacks both, which makes it more confusing (as you've said) and weaker - it says that you can maneuver in those situations, but it doesn't explicitly say that you can't in other situations (which would be resolved with "only").

[Capt Fathom]

In regards to those 3 lines, what is the overall intent?

If you are maneuvering to align with the runway, you need to see where you are going!

Keep it practical and don't get bogged down on words. It will do your head in otherwise.

[The Green Goblin]

Just think practically. Would you like to be in sight of water/ground outside the circling area in poor vis?

The whole 'point' of circling, is conducting a non runway aligned instrument approach. Then manuavering at a safe height in the circling area to align the aircraft with the runway and land.

It's becoming less and less common to circle with the myriad of GPS based approaches available and the loss of aids. However a typical scenario you may face now is using a GPS approach to the circling minima on one runway, and manauvering to a more favourable reciprocal runway.

[swh]

You need to remain within the circling area visually however you do not need to have the runway in sight all the time, often late downwind you will not be able to see the runway because of the design of the cockpit window, where the wing is, engine, gear etc but you maintain a reference so that when you are on base you pick up the runway.

[AerocatS2A]

You need to remain within the circling area visually however you do not need to have the runway in sight all the time, often late downwind you will not be able to see the runway because of the design of the cockpit window, where the wing is, engine, gear etc but you maintain a reference so that when you are on base you pick up the runway.

You do have to be able to see the runway environment though. The fact that you just can't from an airliner flight deck on late downwind is conveniently ignored by all.

[Capt Fathom]

You do have to be able to see the runway environment though

Maybe....

For the purpose of this section ‘visual reference’ means the runway threshold, or approach lights or other markings identifiable with the landing runway clearly visible to the pilot and a flight visibility not less than that specified for the procedure.

Means you can use the Pizza Hut on the extended centreline as other markings identifiable with the landing runway.

Disclaimer: Before attempting this, please familiarise yourself with the position of your local Pizza Hut. :uhoh: