BEA Vanguard interior configurations

[MARK9263]

Would anyone here have information on the interior configuration of BEAs Vanguards during the 1960s?

I understand there were two configurations, what where they and which aircraft had which?

Any info greatly appreciated.

[DaveReidUK]

The V951s were 18F108Y and the V953s were 135Y.

[MARK9263]

That's superb.

Thanks Dave.

[vctenderness]

The First Class cabin was at the rear unlike today's aircraft configs.

[tczulu]

First flew in one in 1966,Glasgow-Palma,so my memory might be playing tricks here. But IIRC some of the seats were rearward facing?

[ZFT]

First flew in one in 1966,Glasgow-Palma,so my memory might be playing tricks here. But IIRC some of the seats were rearward facing?

Yep, have the same recollection. Maybe Belfast flight

[DaveReidUK]

But IIRC some of the seats were rearward facing?

Indeed they were.

Though of course that wasn't unique to the Vanguard - Tridents also had some rearward-facing seats.

[Bergerie1]

BOAC Britannias also had the first class at the rear.....away from the propellor noise.

[Alsacienne]

I flew MAN/LHR/GCI on a BEA Vanguard in the 60s and remember the rear facing seats (economy class), with different instructions for how to brace if required. Seemed much easier than in the majority of forward facing seats!

[Kewbick]

BEA's Vickers Viking and Airspeed Ambassador also had a few rear facing seats, but they were located in the forward portion of the cabin.

[Helen49]

I believe that BEA also operated Viscounts with a row of rear facing seats at the front of the cabin?
H49

[Herod]

how to brace if required. Seemed much easier than in the majority of forward facing seats!

Back in the fifties the RAF did a lot of research on survivability in rear-facing seats. As a result all RAF aircraft during my time (perhaps still so?) had rear-facing seats. It's much safer, but hard to sell to the travelling public.

[Mooncrest]

I have a lovely Viscount book at home. In it there is definitely a cabin picture of a BAF/ex-BA etc. aircraft. There is a table and two seats facing forwards and the other two facing backwards.

Slight thread drift but I once flew on an Adria/Tarom Rombac 1-11 and that had a similar seating configuration. Must be a British thing (albeit Romanian-built in this case).

[dixi188]

The BAC1-11 had rear facing seats at the overwing exits on the 119 seat config to allow sufficient access for evacuation.
I witnessed the evac trials at Hurn in 1969/70.
It took three attempts to get everyone out in the required 90 secs. and this was using young, fit apprentices.

[Rob Courtney]

727s also had rear facing seats at the overwing escape doors, its an interestibf sensation flying backwards.

[WHBM]

Back in the fifties the RAF did a lot of research on survivability in rear-facing seats. As a result all RAF aircraft during my time (perhaps still so?) had rear-facing seats. It's much safer, but hard to sell to the travelling public.
A little later Boeing did a comparable study and came up with the opposite answer.

Although you may feel you could be thrown forward in a sharp deceleration, it is generally only as far as the seatback ahead. Far more of a hazard though is general cabin detritus, flying catering carts, baggage, unsecured passengers, etc, being thrown forward. With normal seating your own seatback forms an effective shield to this. With rearward seating you get it all straight in the face.

[Herod]

Possibly, although that would only really apply to the rear seats. The others would be protected by the seat in front. Perhaps Boeing were also considering passenger appeal in their calculations?

[lotus1]

With regards to rear facing seats I remember Dan air had a one eleven with rear facing seats my mates and I came back from Spain must have been around 87 and we was given these seats it was great we had good leg room

[WHBM]

With regards to rear facing seats I remember Dan air had a one eleven with rear facing seats my mates and I came back from Spain must have been around 87 and we was given these seats it was great we had good leg room
As well known, rear-facing seats were an "RAF thing", and this extended to their troop charters where they used civilian charter operators - if the aircraft was so capable. The One-Elevens had been so used back to British United days. I used to think it would be a substantial task to reconfigure, but it was apparently it just required a few hours, two engineers, and one box of spanners. They were generally reconfigured back prior to their next mainstream airline use, but if time was short they were not. There used to be a PPRuNe poster who wrote about this being done outside their office during a night shift layover at Gatwick.

The Britannia 737s which the RAF moved on to were not so capable.

[DaveReidUK]

I used to think it would be a substantial task to reconfigure, but it was apparently it just required a few hours, two engineers, and one box of spanners.

In the days before IFE, seatback screens, etc, fitting and removing seats could be done very rapidly (without requiring any tools).

If it was just a case of reversing the way they were facing (i.e. swapping the seats on the LH side for those on the RHS and turning them round) and keeping the same pitch, then the PSUs would still be more-or-less in the right place and the rubber strips that cover the rails would still fit.

I don't know the 1-11 that well (we rarely saw them in the hangar at LHR) but I'm assuming that the rails are symmetrical about the fuselage centreline, notwithstanding the 2+3 configuration.

[WHBM]

I don't think you could actually transpose the seats left and right when reversing them on a 3+2 configuration, for a start the overhead PSUs also suit 3 on one side and 2 on the other.


My hunch would be that one chap starts at the front, one at the back, and there would be an end-of-shift beer on who was the quicker :) If done properly I would also expect that they would check/sign off each other's work.

[Mr Mac]

I recall travelling in Comets 4B with rear facing seats as well. These would be Dan Air and Air Tours from memory, and seat had a table between these and seats facing the other way as I remember (early 1970,s)
Regards
Mr Mac

[Neil Amrose]

As a BEA Apprentice in 1968 working in the Charter office I got a jolly on a Vanguard ( G-APEJ )
to Malta carrying a film crew with Antony Newley and Joan Collins.The first class cabin
was utilised for the delicate camera and lighting equipment except for a row of seats
for the stars.Best part of the trip was the ferry back to LHR sitting in the P4 seat.
Spectacular views of the Alps and a very rainy/windy landing.Fleet Manager Vanguards
in charge.Lots of ribbons on the uniform.Most impressive to a 19 year old.In those days
Malta was used for BEA crew training.

[DaveReidUK]

I don't think you could actually transpose the seats left and right when reversing them on a 3+2 configuration, for a start the overhead PSUs also suit 3 on one side and 2 on the other.

But nor can you simply turn the double seats 180° and re-install them on the same side, because the legs are offset from the centreline of the seat.

So how was it done?

[Warmtoast]

Rearward Facing Seats


Britannia's in RAF service had rearward facing seats with 38-inch seat pitch in normal seating configuration, pitch was reduced to 36-inchs if more Pax were to be crammed in.
Photos from my album below.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Lyneham/BritanniaRAF253CMk1AQMStationMedium.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Lyneham/BritanniaRAF253CMk1Cabin3Medium.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Lyneham/BritanniaRAF253CMk1Cabin2Medium.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Lyneham/BritanniaRAF253CMk1Cabin-MedEvacLay.jpg

[macuser]

I can remember travelling in bua 1-11s in the late 60s with rearward seats. On a smooth flight you forgot you were travelling "backwards" until the landing! Quite strange but felt safe.

[DaveReidUK]

I can remember travelling in bua 1-11s in the late 60s with rearward seats.

Can you by any chance remember whether the triple seats were fitted on the port or starboard side?

[pax britanica]

I remember rearward facing seats on tridents and of course much more recently on BA Club 747 and Triples. People seemed quite happy with them and as I like a window seat I usually opted for them on BA long haul. Definately a mostly British ideas and mostly on aircraft with less than spectacular deck angles on take off. Being in the rearward facing block of four 'facing seats might have been a more peculiar feeling lets say on an MD80 a type I flew on a very large number of times in Scandi land and on a short ARN-CPH or HEL hop went up like a rocket.
Not all British though since while writing this it reminded me that on American Eagle ATR42/72 around the Caribbean in the 1980s the first row were rear facing

[dixi188]

BAC1-11 seats.
2 on the left and 3 on the right.

I've just found some pics by googling BAC1-11 interiors.
There is one seat plan for Mohawk that is a bit of a mixture.
Some fwd, some rearward, and also a mix of 2+3 and 2+2

[Cymmon]

First row is rear facing on Binter Canarias ATR-72's.

[WHBM]

A whole range of types and carriers have configured a small number of rearward facing seats over time. Southwest in the USA used to rig out all their 737s with two or three such layouts in the cabin, they were known as "lounge" seating areas. Although just free seating, like the rest of Southwest, they apparently filled up last, unless there was a large business group or family travelling.

Boeing 737-2H4/Adv - Southwest Airlines | Aviation Photo #0171114 | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Southwest-Airlines/Boeing-737-2H4-Adv/0171114/M)


The picture shows the rearward seats were different in shape to the regular forward ones, with a higher but sharply tapered seat back. This is just the same as the Britannia seats pictured higher up the thread. I've seen these Brit seats before and have always wondered why they had such a strange shape, and whether people had narrower heads a generation ago ...

The Southwest layout was apparently changed to a standard all-forward arrangement when the 16g seat restraint requirement came in. I wonder what aspect required this.

[DaveReidUK]

BAC1-11 seats.
2 on the left and 3 on the right.

I've just found some pics by googling BAC1-11 interiors.
There is one seat plan for Mohawk that is a bit of a mixture.
Some fwd, some rearward, and also a mix of 2+3 and 2+2

Yes, the standard One-Eleven configuration was 2L+3R, we all remember that.

But my question was specifically about how BUA reconfigured their seats for trooping flights so that they faced rearwards.

[asmccuk]

Back to the original query, I remember when flying from LHR to Belfast, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Manchester in the mid 60s, if we saw that the aircraft was a 951, a quickening of the pace out to the rear door could result in a right turn on entry to get a first class seat for an internal flight, in the days before seat allocation.

[tristar 500]

The main reason for the seats that faced the rear on the BEA (British European Airways) aircraft was that you had a table between the opposing seats. this was for baby carry cots.

There were no bassinets in those days you put the child in their carry cot carried them on to the aircraft & popped them on the table.

If there were no babies travelling these people had a very handy table for their use.

[WHBM]

Back to the original query, I remember when flying from LHR to Belfast, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Manchester in the mid 60s, if we saw that the aircraft was a 951, a quickening of the pace out to the rear door could result in a right turn on entry to get a first class seat for an internal flight, in the days before seat allocation.
It is curious that when looking at old BEA timetables from the 1960s, there seems quite a random allocation of flights with first class offered, which required the small 951 subfleet. There are flights to Glasgow etc where it is apparent what the turnround was (there being rarely more than one Vanguard on the ground at a time at the outstations), with first offered one way but not the other. Not even any pattern to it - there are economy flights at business times and ones with first class at off peak hours. Possibly it was something to do with crewing.

[Discorde]

For detailed descriptions of what it was like to actually fly the Vanguard (and the Merchantman freighter conversion) try the novel 'The Damocles Plot' by Julien Evans.

[avionic type]

Getting back to Vanguard seating British Airways Museum has some fine pictures of them ,hope it helps

[DaveReidUK]

For detailed descriptions of what it was like to actually fly the Vanguard (and the Merchantman freighter conversion) try the novel 'The Damocles Plot' by Julien Evans.

Lots of thinly-disguised anecdotes about flying the Mudguard in Canada here, too:

http://images.gr-assets.com/books/1420229002l/10156239.jpg

[avionic type]

The 951 first class configuration did not last long if my fading memory recollects, once they were fitted with higher rated engines they were reconfigured to all tourist class probably in a matter of 3 or4 years Tristar 500 might remember better than I [he's younger than me].the Punker louve/ reading light assemblies were 3 in length each with their own nozzles and seat switches built in, even in the so called First class cabin the inner and outer reading lamp assemblies were adjusted to cover this

[WHBM]

The 951 first class configuration did not last long if my fading memory recollects, once they were fitted with higher rated engines they were reconfigured to all tourist class probably in a matter of 3 or4 years
I think a bit longer than that; they came along in 1961, and in the 1968 BEA timetable there were still plenty of F-class Vanguard flights from Heathrow to Glasgow and Edinburgh, although the former route was increasingly changing to Tridents. Here's the page from the 1968 BEA timetable which, as they always uniquely did, lists their aircraft fleet and cabin configurations.

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/be/be6806/be686-29.jpg

[bean]

The 951 first class configuration did not last long if my fading memory recollects, once they were fitted with higher rated engines they were reconfigured to all tourist class probably in a matter of 3 or4 years Tristar 500 might remember better than I [he's younger than me].the Punker louve/ reading light assemblies were 3 in length each with their own nozzles and seat switches built in, even in the so called First class cabin the inner and outer reading lamp assemblies were adjusted to cover this
The BEA Vanguards were never fitted with uprated engines. The 953 had the same stronger structure specified by TCA for the 952. The 951s always were more restricted and never operated in all tourist class config

[bols59]

On the BA 747-400 seat 62K (aft facing) on the upper deck had more space and more privacy than a First Class Suite. I speak from knowledge. I somehow was able to scam the Upper Deck and row 62 w/a BA rep before the flight (SEA - LHR return) Feb. 2008. I was also able to order a Full English breakfast. My charm and persuasion were working that day!

[Asturias56]

"with first offered one way but not the other. Not even any pattern to it - there are economy flights at business times and ones with first class at off peak hours. Possibly it was something to do with crewing."

You expect something LOGICAL from BEA? They always did whatever they liked and what suited them on the day

[WHBM]

The BEA Vanguards were never fitted with uprated engines. The 953 had the same stronger structure specified by TCA for the 952. The 951s always were more restricted and never operated in all tourist class config
Bit late to this. I suspect accounts of changed engines are what was done on the Viscount fleet.

The six 951s were built first, in 1959, and for some reason hung around until 1961 to be delivered. Weybridge then turned to the Trans Canada order, and built those into 1961, when they then did the main BEA 953 single class fleet, which were delivered pretty much straight away and thus came along with the earlier ones. BEA operated the first passenger flight two weeks after first delivery, which makes one think some considerable training had been done while they still belonged to Vickers.

In 1966 BEA were running 13 Vanguards a day on Glasgow to London, which is way more seats than BA provide nowadays 58 years later.

[bean]

Bit late to this. I suspect accounts of changed engines are what was done on the Viscount fleet.

The six 951s were built first, in 1959, and for some reason hung around until 1961 to be delivered. Weybridge then turned to the Trans Canada order, and built those into 1961, when they then did the main BEA 953 single class fleet, which were delivered pretty much straight away and thus came along with the earlier ones. BEA operated the first passenger flight two weeks after first delivery, which makes one think some considerable training had been done while they still belonged to Vickers.

In 1966 BEA were running 13 Vanguards a day on Glasgow to London, which is way more seats than BA provide nowadays 58 years later.
All the 951s were delivered late because during the latter stages of testing serious compressor problems occured with the Tyne engines which were resolved by the time 952s and 3s entered flight test

[DaveReidUK]

In 1966 BEA were running 13 Vanguards a day on Glasgow to London, which is way more seats than BA provide nowadays 58 years later.

Yes, but in those days, the train took all day. :O

By 1968, the 13 daily Vanguards had gone done to 7 plus 5 Tridents, so capacity was already reducing significantly.

Interesting also that in those days GLA/LHR had about a third more flights than EDI/LHR, whereas nowadays there's little difference in capacity.

[bean]

Yes, but in those days, the train took all day. :O

By 1968, the 13 daily Vanguards had gone done to 7 plus 5 Tridents, so capacity was already reducing significantly.

Interesting also that in those days GLA/LHR had about a third more flights than EDI/LHR, whereas nowadays there's little difference in capacity.
BEA were forced to replace some Vanguard services with Comets and Tridents starting 66 due to competition from British Eagle and British United 1-11s on the route starting 66. BUA from LGW

[Discorde]

The T3 crosswind limit (can't remember the T1s and 2s) was less than the Vanguard's and on more than one occasion before their withdrawal from pax service a Vanguard would sub for a T3 on LHR-EDI when a SW gale was outside limits for R13/31 prior to the construction of R25.

[DaveReidUK]

BEA were forced to replace some Vanguard services with Comets and Tridents starting 66 due to competition from British Eagle and British United 1-11s on the route starting 66. BUA from LGW

Yes, I remember when the Comets came in on LHR/EDI to compete with the 1-11s. I'm pretty sure Tridents only served GLA until a few years later - certainly no TRDs to EDI in that 1968 timetable.

[WHBM]

I've written before about being in Edinburgh in the 1970s when the new runway was planned and built (in surprisingly short time compared to how these drag on for years nowadays). It was strongly argued that the old short runway (13/31 ?) was unable to handle Tridents. Once construction was agreed however they started to filter in. The last Vanguard service, fractionally into BA times, was June 1974, and the London service was then all Tridents. I don't think they were Trident 3s. The Shuttle to London, Trident first sections and backups, started in summer 1976, a year before the new "Trident capable" runway even opened.

[Discorde]

. . . the London service was then all Tridents. I don't think they were Trident 3s.

The T3 was no stranger to EDI. In my log book are several entries confirming this fact during 1977-78.

[Discorde]

Here's a description of the Shuttle service (including use of T3s) from Shell Aviation News:

BA Shuttle 1977 (https://www.steemrok.com/shuttle%20nv%20v8.pdf)

[WHBM]

I was actually describing the earlier 1970s and the transition from Vanguards. Were T3s common at Edinburgh before the new runway opened in early 1977 ?

[Discorde]

You've got me wondering now, WHBM. I've got a reasonably strong memory of Vanguards (the fleet I was on) doing EDIs when the wind was outside Trident limits but maybe that was for T1s rather than 3s. Apologies if I've mis-remembered. My T3 flights all used the 'new' R25.

[DaveReidUK]

I was actually describing the earlier 1970s and the transition from Vanguards. Were T3s common at Edinburgh before the new runway opened in early 1977 ?

Yes, there was a mix of Vanguards and initially Comets but later Tridents in the early/mid 70s that I often used on ID90s to visit my folks.

Sadly I missed out on the Comet, but managed a jumpseat once on the T3 where we landed on what was then 13.

[TYTOENG232]

I remember flying on a BEA Trident3 from LHR to GLA Easter weekend !969, then heading up to INV on a BEA Viscount with f/b seats with a table! Not on all seats though, only the front few seats. (one for the Scots on here! I was sitting beside the Corries!)

[rog747]

I remember flying on a BEA Trident 3 from LHR to GLA Easter weekend !969, then heading up to INV on a BEA Viscount with f/b seats with a table! Not on all seats though, only the front few seats. (one for the Scots on here! I was sitting beside the Corries!)

Just to highlight BEA Trident 3's entered service 1971....I guess you were most likely on a 1C or maybe a 2E - ?

Apologies I had to look up the Corries!
The Corries were a Scottish folk group that emerged from the Scottish folk music revival of the early 1960s.
They are particularly known for the song "Flower of Scotland", which has become an unofficial national anthem of Scotland.

[DaveReidUK]

(one for the Scots on here! I was sitting beside the Corries!)

Did they send you homeward, to think again ? :O

[WHBM]

Back to Vanguards, and the Air Canada ones had first class, as likewise did their very large Viscount fleet. Was this at the front or the back ?

[DaveReidUK]

Back to Vanguards, and the Air Canada ones had first class, as likewise did their very large Viscount fleet. Was this at the front or the back ?

The TCA/Air Canada Vanguards also had the first class at the back, as it was quieter. :O

Great article here (https://www.henrytenby.com/the-air-canada-vanguard-passes-into-history/) by Jack Desmarais (of Ace McCool and Mudguard fame, whom I had the pleasure of meeting once) about the Canadians' experience with the Vanguard.

[condor17]

By about '74 EDI was mainly served by T3s . We on the T1/2s rarely saw EDI , 'tho we heard plenty from colleagues who ended up in the cabbage patch at the end of 13/31.
Shuttle back up at EDI from '76 was us T1 boys , and before Rwy 25 opened .. We'd always tried to pull the reverse levers back further than they were designed for.

rgds condor