CX acmi 747-8F with Atlas

[flite idol]

Announced today

[TurningFinalRWY36]

just so i get the facts straight. Some cathay 747-8s will be operated by atlas including crew? Or cathay crew will be operating atlas aircraft

[flite idol]

2 x Atlas 747-8F will operate under ACMI for Cathay Cargo. Atlas aircraft and crews. Press release from Atlas today. Quick google will show it.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

there was rumour that more 747s would leave the cathay fleet. is this to cover the fleet reduction

[Trafalgar]

Hmmm, if I was to guess, CX has been forced into this in order to keep to some of their contractual guarantees on reliability and schedule keeping. Mainly because they have so screwed up their own schedule, upset ALL their crew, sickness rates off the charts, etc, etc. This is the only way they can guarantee their performance guarantees to some of their clients, and so hopefully avoid yet ANOTHER lawsuit(s). :D

[DropKnee]

Got scope? A slippery slope this is. If it doesn't violate your contract? Shame on you.

[broadband circuit]

Scope. Very good point

Especially when many 747 crew are flying well below 84 hrs per month, due to the grossly inefficient roster

[Dan Winterland]

Atlas Air Worldwide Places Two 747-8 ACMI Freighters with Cathay Pacific Cargo - NASDAQ.com (http://www.nasdaq.com/press-release/atlas-air-worldwide--places-two-7478-acmi-freighters-with-cathay-pacific-cargo-20170503-00654)

[flite idol]

just so i get the facts straight. Some cathay 747-8s will be operated by atlas including crew? Or cathay crew will be operating atlas aircraft

Sorry about that....re-reading the title it would be more correct to say Atlas ACMI with CX. I commented on a previous freighter thread that I could not immediately find that Atlas a management sent a communication six or so months ago out of the blue regarding tax liabilities for crew who spend time in HK. I thought it suspicious at the time and I would hazard to guess that's approximately the time that the deal was done.

[Sam Ting Wong]

The easiest way to identify a conspiracy theory is to check for the two common components:

1) confirmation bias : the most pervasive cognitive bias and a powerful driver of belief in conspiracies. We all have a natural inclination to give more weight to evidence that supports what we already believe and ignore evidence that contradicts our beliefs. The real-world events that often become the subject of conspiracy theories tend to be intrinsically complex and unclear. Early reports may contain errors, contradictions and ambiguities, and those wishing to find evidence of a cover-up will focus on such inconsistencies to bolster their claims. If you look at Trafalgars last post you will find a picture perfect example. The motivation behind the Atlas deal is apparently exactly what Trafalgar always assumed it would be. What a coincidence.

2) complexity : ever wondered why conspiracy theories are so ridiculously complex? Because that is often the only way to secure a totally unproven and fictitious story from immediate exposure.

Now, let's look at more plausible options, shall we?

- Leasing requires zero initial capital

- Leasing is totally flexible. No residual cost should there be a need to reduce capacity in the future. New contracts are often time limited, so leasing allows testing the water without risk. Which is , surprise surprise, why so many Cargo Operators are using that option, not only Cathay.

- Atlas really want the contact. Lower cost, extra capacity, need the money, higher productivity, want to get into the market, etc..

- Capacity is needed immediately

- CC is having an effect, but giving in would be more expensive than to lease

PS BC, cargo operation is not as easy to roster as pax ( which operates from A to B and back to A and not from e.g. A to B to C To D and back via E to F to A)

All Cargo airlines have this problem. Ask around. It's complicated.

[mngmt mole]

STW. What office are you in on the third floor. I'd like to visit someday.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Yes, please step into my corner office anytime.

But what would you like to tell me ? You see, I am a bit old fashioned.

I think a debate benefits from exchanging arguments.

Do you have one?

[DropKnee]

STW
Your argument perpetuates the war between CX and their pilots. This maybe good for you short term. But the scrap yard is full of faded paint jobs of airlines who engage in this tactic. A win win agreement must be reached for all of our benefit.
The CX way of take it or nothing. Has no place in today's modern transportation system.
Someday they will come for you. They always do.

[Dan Winterland]

Short memories. KA started with wet-leasing to Atlas. They fly around at CI 0 and taxy at a snail's pace because they charge by block hour. Managers were saying that KA saved so much money when they started flying their own freighters.

[Shep69]

It is patently absurd to think that leasing would save money rather than make peace with the TUs and improve rostering and operational efficiency; its just one more way to stubbornly blow cash to say 'I'm right' while digging in.

Think about it. If this made sense why not just lease most everything out and not fly your own airplanes at all ?

[Freehills]

Sometimes it makes sense. Buying 2 B748 would be around 400m USD or so, plus the expansion of crew required. If you think the uptick in cargo is temporary, or aren't sure how sustainable it will be, wetleasing a couple more makes sense, even if more expensive.

Shep69 - all the big US airlines do exactly what you say. Anything small (78 seats or so) is wetleased by UA/ AA etc from regional jet/ turboprop companies. Because it is cheaper for DL to just buy x thousand block hours from SkyWest or whoever than fly their own aircraft

[broadband circuit]

PS BC, cargo operation is not as easy to roster as pax ( which operates from A to B and back to A and not from e.g. A to B to C To D and back via E to F to A)

Agreed, but the inefficiencies are way beyond that. Many crew barely flying 75% of the "contracted target hours" (any CX employee will know the magic number - no need to post on here), yet at the same time, freighters sitting on tarmacs unproductively waiting for crew to be available.

Ask any jumbo pilot for some of the disaster stories - high value urgent freight (ie, high revenue) being transloaded to other carriers because we can't crew a jet.

Or even worse, high value time critical perishable freight being carried despite the fact that it has undoubtedly spoiled due to the excessive crew shortage induced ground time often without the necessary ground power or aircon required to keep the cargo healthy.

Oh, yes, I forgot, some manager gets a few bucks in bonus because the apu, ground power and ground aircon costs are kept down. Bravo to you, you're a hero. Don't worry about the multi million dollar loss on the freight contract.

[mngmt mole]

Just look at this latest move for what it is: evidence of the epic failure of CX management. Instead of focusing on settling the legitimate issues of concern that their pilot group have, they would rather stubbornly dig their heels in and let the crewing chaos continue. The cost of that is now evidenced by their having to bring in outside companies to ensure the legal integrity of some of their freight contracts.

Our own freighters 'on the ground' so to speak (figuratively, as that is the result of inefficient rostering, so less than optimum monthly hour averages amongst the crews), increasing numbers leaving for new jobs (they don't have to be 'better' jobs, just that they aren't with CX, as most who leave are sick to the teeth with the place and management).

Well done CX management, the wheels are well and truly coming off. Failure writ large. And more to come no doubt.

[Avinthenews]

CX apparently is only getting 11.5hrs utilisation per day.

If they could get that up to 13, that's the equivalent of adding the 2 Atlas aircraft.

Wasn't CX a market leader for aircraft utilisation back in the good old days?

A quick search shows how out of wack CX is.

The Cargolux 747-400 freighters operated an average of 17:23 block hours per day, the highest utilization that the airline’s 747-400F fleet ever achieved. During the same week, the Cargolux 747-8 freighters operated an average of 16:29 block hours per day.

[Steve the Pirate]

As Atlas Shrugs, it would be appropriate to say, "Who is John Galt?".

STP

[Freehills]

CX apparently is only getting 11.5hrs utilisation per day.

If they could get that up to 13, that's the equivalent of adding the 2 Atlas aircraft.

Wasn't CX a market leader for aircraft utilisation back in the good old days?

A quick search shows how out of wack CX is.

Fromm the annual report - page 112-113. 2016 for B748/ 744F combined 11.7 hours. Highest in the last 10 years was 2010 @ 14.4 hours. As the fleet is 20 aircraft, that would be the equivalent of 3-4 extra aircraft if we were back at 2010 utilisation

[Bob Hawke]

The CMP can also be added to the fail list of items to win.

[Farman Biplane]

Ever wondered if they want us to stay in contract compliance so that they will have the ultimate excuse in the future......

[The Visionary]

It's not time to win, it's TIME TO LEAVE!

Keep some things in mind. Canada, 'Merica and Australia ALL have TA's. They forgot Scope though. Although on the surface it appears to really affect those of us based in HKG, it in fact affects EVERYONE. These are jobs. Upgrades/Promotions etc... SO's are having their upgrades postponed as punishment. I hope this sends a message to all those new joiners of what kind of company you have joined. It is the beginning of what is to come.

Perhaps all those that joined the ever popular chief in the bar for drinks recently, right when this was being announced, can practice saying, "Nat in da butte sir"! Meaning he's lubing you up for the next rogering. HE IS NOT ON OUR SIDE! You will see this when push comes to shove, Trust Me!

It honestly amazes me that people still engage management, especially these days. Things are not being fixed and the decisions being made are out of spite and are just ridiculous. The double talk is truly amazing. GUYS AND GALS, STOP TALKING TO THEM!

I have said this before and will say it again, the BIG ONE is coming as it has before.

I hope the union contacts the Atlas pilots union about this as it is just unacceptable. Ironic as the Atlas pilots are in the same position.

So, we either need to prepare to leave OR GO ON STRIKE! It is the only way we can get their attention or they will keep effing with us.

IT'S NOT TIME TO WIN, IT'S TIME TO LEAVE.

[The Visionary]

Oh and Btw, The Hogg is going to be the Rock, "Can you smell what the Hogg is cooking"?

He is a lieutenant in the Swire Mob and is being Upped by Slosar. And you don't get "Upped" unless you are willing to do what needs to be done for the greater good of the "Mob".

It's coming guys and gals.

[mngmt mole]

And who exactly were the 40 Captains and their 'families' who recently dined with our esteemed management? Plonkers, every single one of them. It's like smoking in the year 2017: after all this time you know it's bad for you, and you know it will cause your 'death'. To keep doing it in spite of all the evidence means you have extremely poor personal judgement.

What will this management have to do to get the rest of you to at the VERY LEAST stop playing a part in their pathetic pantomime of "pretending to care". Stop being a useful idiot for heavens sake. :ugh::rolleyes:

[mngmt mole]

Visionary. You are correct, but at this point I don't care anymore. They can bring it on, i'm ready to do my small part to screw with them at every opportunity. Once you stop fearing them it is quite liberating, and ultimately leads to a certain sense of peace, no matter what the situation. This latest move with Atlas is just another sign of their desperation and incompetence.

[The Visionary]

AtlasFacts.org (http://www.atlasfacts.org/)

http://aircargoworld.com/dhl-pilots-to-enter-mediation-with-atlas-air-worldwide/

[8driver]

Word is the fleet office was taken by surprise at the announcement. So they say anyway.

[broadband circuit]

Word is the fleet office was taken by surprise at the announcement. So they say anyway.

To anyone who's not in CX thinking that this is not possible, I'm here to tell you that I would be absolutely shocked if the fleet office had any pre-advice of this decision

[Dan Winterland]

Seems the airline is being deliberately driven into the ground. To what end?

[GTC58]

Rumour has that a couple of ERF's are returned to their respective leasing company to save cost. Atlas just providing the lost lift via ACMI.

[cxorcist]

As Atlas Shrugs, it would be appropriate to say, "Who is John Galt?".

STP

Love it!!!

[Atlas Shrugged]

As Atlas Shrugs, it would be appropriate to say, "Who is John Galt?".


:suspect::suspect:

[cxorcist]

Put this in the CX 'missed opportunity' pile.

I almost miss Rhodent...

[Farman Biplane]

So, we dry lease two 747F to Air Hong Kong and then we wet lease two back from Atlas? All the while we have many pilots flying well under their monthly credit hours?
TTW?

[White None]

Thread Drift but please can we arrange an ACMI event 2v2 Boeing vs Airbus? 1 Minute regeneration, points for nose in the vertical?

[Booger]

If only our "Time To Win" managers subscribed to the first rule of Defensive BFM.

[Shep69]

Thread Drift but please can we arrange an ACMI event 2v2 Boeing vs Airbus? 1 Minute regeneration, points for nose in the vertical?

My money's on the Boeing 'cuz it'll let you do what you need to do. Not sure how much fun a 2.5 g rate fight would be in lumbering giants though ......

[cxorcist]

If only our "Time To Win" managers subscribed to the first rule of Defensive BFM.

Don't get gunned off the perch...

[White None]

Don't change direction repeatedly.

Don't try and win the debrief when you got shot.

Don't carry on trying to call the shots when you're out of Ammo.

etc :ok:

[Dan Winterland]

Don't try and win the debrief when you got shot.


SOP for Tornado F3.

[cxorcist]

Don't change direction repeatedly.

Don't try and win the debrief when you got shot.

Don't carry on trying to call the shots when you're out of Ammo.

etc :ok:

Agree with your last two, but the first one is key to surviving once jinking inside a gun wez. The idea being to survive until 1) help arrives, 2) you can neutralize an overly agreesive offender, 3) you can mort the guy on the floor, or 4) run him outta gas.

Curtain Rod, correct. Never give up!!! Agree... F3 sucks in visual arena. Best to keep your distance with JTIDS/Link 16 SA and let the real air to air fighters go to the merge.

[OK4Wire]

My #1 rule: control the debrief!