' Luck of a Lancaster'

[westernhero]

109 missions, 14 times over Berlin, ends her days on a fire dump in 1954, the story of Avro Lancaster EE 136. The luckiest Lancaster: Bomber that survived 109 missions | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4465388/The-luckiest-Lancaster-Bomber-survived-109-missions.html)

[goudie]

I was given a book last Christmas titled 'Ton Up Lancs'. it lists the history of all the 35 Lancs that completed 100 sorties or more. EE136 certainly had her share of the action with some very courageous crews flying in her. Sad she had such an ignominious end

[JammedStab]

"They have sowed the wind, and now they will reap the whirlwind"

Arthur Harris -1942

[Tankertrashnav]

Some years ago I bought a bag of coins in which I found a DFM, minus its suspension. I resolved to obtain a replacement suspension and research the medal. It turned out that the recipient, although he was a Brit, had been a Lancaster rear gunner on 460 Sqn, RAAF. I got a lot of info from the National Archive from Forms 540, and it transpired that he had flown the majority of his sorties in W4783 - G George of that squadron. When that aircraft had flown 89 ops in 1944 it was withdrawn from service, and flown to Australia via Canada and the US. On arrival the aircraft made a "grand tour" of the country over several weeks, and at each stop it was made open to the paying public, who could visit it and even pay extra for a "joyride". All money raised went to the Victory Loan, I believe. The aircraft finally flew to Canberra, where it remains to this day as an exhibit in the Australian War Memorial (equivalent to the Imperial War Museum), a much more fitting end than those which ended up on the scrap heap. I was delighted to be able to buy from the museum a photograph of G George's crew posed beside the aircraft after an operation which included "my man". This greatly added to the interest of the medal, which is now in the hands of an Australian collector.

Not quite 100 ops but an interesting story, which all started from a neglected and forgotten medal in a bag of coins.

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C148191

Incidentally on another thread I made a plea for gallantry crosses to be named now that they are "all ranks" awards. Had this been a broken DFC there would have been no name and therefore no story, just a chunk of silver of little value.

[Pontius Navigator]

Here is a link to a 1950s film on a Lancaster raid. Set at a 1 Gp airfield, RAF Hemswell, It is set in 1944 and a Berlin raid. The actors appear to be real RAF. The narrator gives a running commentary over a live sound track. It works well.

Some interesting near contemporary evidence. All airmen wore forage caps when outdoors. All vehicles were green - that was a surprise. Most base personnel were wearing No 1s although aircrew wore No 2s. Some No 2s had brass buttons on epaulettes.



https://youtu.be/SFyYZquh9hM

[NutLoose]

Another tale that should be told, because without it the RAF would not be flying PA474 and S for Sugar would not be in the RAF Museum, this was the result of one mans determination and his own money in restoring her.

https://www.lancasterraf.co.uk/the-story/

[Daf Hucker]

Pontius, the film was made by the Station Commander at RAF Hemswell who was a bit of a camera buff. One of the very few colour films available of the Lancaster at war.

[SASless]

Whenever I visit the Pima Air Museum adjacent to the USAF Desert Storage Facility....my Heart breaks thinking what stories all those aircraft tell if they could speak.

To think of the Thousands upon Thousands of WWII Aircraft that finished their Service to the Allied Nations by becoming Cooking Pots is such a tragedy.


https://www.airplaneboneyards.com/davis-monthan-afb-amarg-airplane-boneyard.htm

[Pontius Navigator]

Pontius, the film was made by the Station Commander at RAF Hemswell who was a bit of a camera buff. One of the very few colour films available of the Lancaster at war.
Thank you. I should also mention for the purists that say the RAF has Stations and the USAF has bases, that in this film the Station Commander was a Gp Capt but there was a Base Commander who was an Air Cdre.

I noticed a Hurricane on the grass as the Lancasters taxied out. I guess it would have been from 1687(B) For at Cammeringham, a satellite of Hemswell.

Presumably he was the Base Commander of 13 Base, Elsham Woods - Kirmington, ​​​​​ North Killingholme, Henswell, Cammeringham and Sturgate.

In Dec 44 i think the sqns mentioned, 150/170 if I got it right, were at Fiskerton and Dunholme Lodge respectively.

Of course Kirton Lindsey was 12 Gp.

[papajuliet]

The film ( Night Bombers ) was made by Air Commodore Cozens, the base commander - not the station commander who, at the time ,was Group Captain Sheen.
The briefing part of the film was made on 9 March 1945 after cancellation of an operation ( n.b. not mission - that was an American term ) just before briefing. The A/C made use of the cancellation to make his film sequences.
The above information is taken from the book "Bomber Intelligence" by W E Jones who was the intelligence officer at the time ( he appears in the film at the briefing )
I think I'm right in saying that Cozens was the C.O of 19 sqdn. when it introduced the Spitfire into service prewar.

[Pontius Navigator]

after cancellation of an operation ( n.b. not mission - that was an American term ) just before briefing. .
Which is why 12 Sqn had two fox heads called Ops On and Ops Off. The appropriate one was displayed in the local pub. I think the one with a green base was Ops On

[MPN11]

Whenever I visit the Pima Air Museum adjacent to the USAF Desert Storage Facility....my Heart breaks thinking what stories all those aircraft tell if they could speak.

To think of the Thousands upon Thousands of WWII Aircraft that finished their Service to the Allied Nations by becoming Cooking Pots is such a tragedy.

https://www.airplaneboneyards.com/davis-monthan-afb-amarg-airplane-boneyard.htm
OK, your post piqued my interest. A quick bit of Googling tells me about PIMA and AMARG. It just happens we are going to PHX next Feb. My wife can go Mall shopping with her friend there, and I can dive 100 miles down I-10 to do both facilities. :)

[NutLoose]

She can spend a lot of money in 200 miles :)

[Wensleydale]

For those confused by Bases and Stations. During WW2, the large expansion period Stations of Bomber Command were given administrative control of more temporary satellite stations. So, for example, Waddington controlled the satellites at Skellingthorpe and Bardney. The complex was known as "Base 53", ie the third base of 5 Group. Each of the Stations had a Group Captain Station Commander, but each Base had an Air Commodore as "Base Commander" who was usually found at the larger main Station. You can easily find a list of all Stations and associated Bases on line. Bomber Bases_P (http://www.rafweb.org/Organsation/Bases.htm)

[Chugalug2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFyYZquh9hM

Night Bombers. The purpose was to make the maximum training value of Cozens's precious colour stock. In doing so he produced a unique and historic artefact of Harris's Bomber Command and its war winning Bombing Campaign.

[roving]

papajuliet, Air Commodore Cozen's biography. He was appointed in Dec 1937 as Officer Commanding, No 19 Sqn.

H I Cozens_P (http://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Cozens.htm)

[XV490]

He wasn't fond of Christmas – if the later photo in this biog (http://ftfmagazine.lewcock.net/index.php?view=article&catid=41%3Anovember-2008&id=124%3Aair-commodore-iliffe-cozens&tmpl=component&print=1&page=&option=com_content) is anything to go by.

[MPN11]

He wasn't fond of Christmas – if the later photo in this biog (http://ftfmagazine.lewcock.net/index.php?view=article&catid=41%3Anovember-2008&id=124%3Aair-commodore-iliffe-cozens&tmpl=component&print=1&page=&option=com_content) is anything to go by.The supposed 1946 photo as a sqn ldr seems a bit erroneous! However, respect to the gentleman ... he gave us all a huge slice of history with his filming.

[Chugalug2]

XV490:-
He wasn't fond of Christmas – if the later photo in this biog (http://ftfmagazine.lewcock.net/index.php?view=article&catid=41%3Anovember-2008&id=124%3Aair-commodore-iliffe-cozens&tmpl=component&print=1&page=&option=com_content) is anything to go by

Great biog for a beloved father I'd say. As for the being decorated for Christmas pic, dead pan as befits an indulgent grandfather! I'm sure that the aircraft being piloted by the 'man from the ministry' has long since been identified iaw the 2008 plea, but for my own edification I ran G-EBQP through G-INFO. It is identified as a 1924 built DH53 Hummingbird, as I'm sure many will have known (unlike me!). It is still on the UK register, though shown as having a no flight declaration for flight insurance purposes as at 2015. Another lucky survivor! Intriguingly it says that it has(d) an exemption to carrying its civil reg in 2012 in favour of RAF Serial J7326. Was it once the Base Commander's personal runabout at Hemswell I wonder?

https://siteapps.caa.co.uk/g-info/

[Innominate]

He received an AFC in June 1939, presumably the last time officers wore full dress uniform! The other decoration is apparently the Polar Medal.

[Box Brownie]

Papajuliet I can confirm your comments about Air Commodore Cozens. Back in 1980 I spent a morning with him. He mentioned that the film was totally unofficial and that the take off sequences were filmed from the door of an Oxford. He also mentioned that he converted Guy Gibson onto the Mosquito. If only I had recorded him...……...

[rolling20]

the take off sequences were filmed from the door of an Oxford.
I often wondered how that was filmed. It must have been a tad dangerous! I just need now to find out how they filmed the B17s on take off in the original Memphis Bell.

[Chugalug2]

nutloose:-
Another tale that should be told, because without it the RAF would not be flying PA474 and S for Sugar would not be in the RAF Museum, this was the result of one mans determination and his own money in restoring her. https://www.lancasterraf.co.uk/the-story/

Thanks for the link, nutloose. I must admit that I had not heard of Ted Willoughby before and I should have, given that without him R5868 S Sugar (137 Ops) would not be preserved at RAFM Hendon and its place would have been taken instead by PA474 (0 Ops!). The BBMF would thus have no airworthy Lancaster to fly. A very British story, and a reminder that we wouldn't have a National Bomber Command Memorial either, if it wasn't for the efforts of a Pop Singer!

Couldn't agree more with Willoughby Jnr's:-
the fact remains without the Lancaster the war would not have been won.
No mealy mouthed prevarication there!

[Box Brownie]

rolling20, I rang a close friend, Graham Simons, to find your answer for Memphis Belle. Fifteen hours of footage were taken when making the film. The take off sequence was taken from the ball turret. The guns were removed and it was probably Whyler himself who took the footage, using a 16mm hand held camera. There are two sequences and as the take off was with the turret down, they would have been illegal! One sequence was taken at Bassingbourne and the other, a beat up, at Alconbury / Abbots Ripton. The shots from outside were taken from another B17's

[Wensleydale]

He also mentioned that he converted Guy Gibson onto the Mosquito.

Perhaps said with a hint of irony? My understanding is that Gibson was not formally qualified to fly the Mosquito.

[rolling20]

rolling20, I rang a close friend, Graham Simons, to find your answer for Memphis Belle. Fifteen hours of footage were taken when making the film. The take off sequence was taken from the ball turret. The guns were removed and it was probably Whyler himself who took the footage, using a 16mm hand held camera. There are two sequences and as the take off was with the turret down, they would have been illegal! One sequence was taken at Bassingbourne and the other, a beat up, at Alconbury / Abbots Ripton. The shots from outside were taken from another B17's
Thank you Box, much appreciated. I often thought they had a car racing alongside,although I always thought that would have been slightly impossible.

[Box Brownie]

That was always my understanding Wensleydale. I have a copy of Gibson's log book No2 and there is only one Mosquito entry - July 10th 1944 with pilot: Sqdn Ldr Martin ( Mickey Martin?) Local

Cozens did say they swung off the runway and got airborne from the grass.

[rolling20]

Perhaps said with a hint of irony? My understanding is that Gibson was not formally qualified to fly the Mosquito. The story has always been that Gibson had never flown the mark of mossie he was killed in.
At that time one would imagine Gibson to have been a poor pupil. It was only 2 years previously that he had converted onto Lancaster's after a demonstration in the air by Hoppy Hopgood. Albeit he had come from flying Manchesters. Ronald Churcher who I believe was a young pilot on 106 with Gibson, converted onto mossies after a couple of hours apparently.

[El Grifo]

Thank you for the link Pontious !
The stuff of legends and no mistake !

El G.

[Pontius Navigator]

Hoppy Hopgood.
Now I wonder if there is any link with Mark Hopgood Vulcan captain?
Strange how relatively rare surnames occur with sonar full of father's foot steps o r coincidence?

Paul Millikin Vulcans - Andy BBMF
Chattertons too
Harvey Hliliyard I saw mention of and lastly Canberras and Graham Shackleton
Dick Emerson and Grubsey
Hannahs of course

Just wish in retrospect we had been able to talk to our bemedalled seniors. Just what did you do in the war Boss? But it just was not done - shop, hangar doors, shooting a line - all infradig

[Wensleydale]

463 Sqn RAAF at Waddington was the home of the 5 Group Film Unit for the last year of the War. These films came into my sight earlier tonight and thought that some of you would find them interesting.... The first film has the only photographic evidence I have seen that PO-S "Sugar R5868 (now in the Hendon Museum) was fitted with H2S during the War. All other shots that I have of her do not show her so fitted.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060021108

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060021130

[rolling20]

Now I wonder if there is any link with Mark Hopgood Vulcan captain?
Strange how relatively rare surnames occur with sonar full of father's foot steps o r coincidence?

Paul Millikin Vulcans - Andy BBMF
Chattertons too
Harvey Hliliyard I saw mention of and lastly Canberras and Graham Shackleton
Dick Emerson and Grubsey
Hannahs of course

Just wish in retrospect we had been able to talk to our bemedalled seniors. Just what did you do in the war Boss? But it just was not done - shop, hangar doors, shooting a line - all infradig
Hadn't seen you reply there Pontius, forgive the tardy reply. Chap I flew with on the UAS had a father who was a senior flyer. He had a brother who didn't want anything to do with the service IIRC and I don't think he himself joined up. We used to ambush our adj in the bar, eager for tales of his wartime experience. Provided the Guinness kept coming, he was happy to oblige.

[aw ditor]

PN Re your query at 30' don't think there is any immediate' link to Mark H'.

A.D.

[Chugalug2]

PN;-
it just was not done - shop, hangar doors, shooting a line - all infradig
Occasionally though you were privileged enough to be treated to amusing anecdotes. Typically self deprecating ones of course, as that was the default norm for that generation. Chalky White (who else?), a Flt Lt instructor at 242 OCU RAF Thorney Island, spoke of being an OTU student Wellington Pilot. Having gone solo his crew was mustered for Harris's first '1000 bomber' raid, on Cologne. They found the city, bombed it, but lost an engine in doing so.

Somehow he managed to fly it back home and later enjoyed his OM bacon and egg breakfast in splendid isolation, as his fellow students on the raid had beaten him back there. There was however a group of instructors on another table (of course!) chatting. Eventually one of them who recognised him came across the room for a word. "Glad to see you made it back, young White, how did you get on?". "Oh we found the target well enough, Sir, but I lost an engine". "Oh, bad luck, but well done for making it back. Now you know why it's called the pig, for that is what it is with one feathered!". Chalky responded politely but vaguely, and later sought out his own instructor. "What does feathered mean, Sir?".

[Pontius Navigator]

OK, as we seem to be deviating: my boss, sqn ldr ops recounted a tale of when he commanded Spitfire sqn in Transport Command. Anyway he found an order in the Flying Order Book stating that on any day when no other mission was tasked they were to fly a strike down the Loire Valley.

This they did.

This was after the war and might even have been early 50s and the French objected. From that he learnt about checking the FOB against the Master copy.

[Lou Scannon]

PN;-

Occasionally though you were privileged enough to be treated to amusing anecdotes. Typically self deprecating ones of course, as that was the default norm for that generation. Chalky White (who else?), a Flt Lt instructor at 242 OCU RAF Thorney Island, spoke of being an OTU student Wellington Pilot. Having gone solo his crew was mustered for Harris's first '1000 bomber' raid, on Cologne. They found the city, bombed it, but lost an engine in doing so.

Somehow he managed to fly it back home and later enjoyed his OM bacon and egg breakfast in splendid isolation, as his fellow students on the raid had beaten him back there. There was however a group of instructors on another table (of course!) chatting. Eventually one of them who recognised him came across the room for a word. "Glad to see you made it back, young White, how did you get on?". "Oh we found the target well enough, Sir, but I lost an engine". "Oh, bad luck, but well done for making it back. Now you know why it's called the pig, for that is what it is with one feathered!". Chalky responded politely but vaguely, and later sought out his own instructor. "What does feathered mean, Sir?".

I can verify that story as I too was once a student with Chalky White. It seems that he had only flown the Mk 1 Wimpy before the op, and that didn't have a feathering prop as did the one he flew to Germany.. Interestingly Chalky's civilian occupation before enlistment was as an undertakers apprentice which gave rise to many interesting stories over a coffee!

[Chugalug2]

Thank you for confirming Chalky's story, LS. You might also recall another one that he told about training glider pilots. An important part of their training was to practice the launching of concentrated formations, and such an exercise was in progress (at RAF Fairford?). Way towards the rear of the dense mass of gliders waiting in turn to be connected to a tow rope and a tug was a GPR pilot who suddenly felt the call of nature. Seeing just how many aircraft there were ahead of him before it would be his turn, he reasoned he would have enough time to exit his glider, nip across to the boundary hedge, answer the call, and then nip back again. Sadly his reasoning was greatly in error as, while adjusting his clothing, he was horrified to see that events had moved apace and his now empty glider was being hooked up to a Stirling tug, the slack taken up, and the take-off initiated. His warning cries were drowned out by a cacophony of radial engines.

Things went well at first as the glider gained flying speed, but then it began ever increasing and wilder gyrations until, in an understandable act of self preservation, the tug cast it loose and to its doom. No doubt the legal eagles could have had a field day, and one can imagine the many offences under Military Law that could have been invoked, but I prefer to think that a more benevolent attitude would have prevailed. Gliders were ten-a-penny and their pilots badly needed. If nothing else, he had shown himself to be an officer and a gentleman in his actions, as any other course of action would have been unthinkable, wouldn't it?