Unintended 457 consequences could ground airlines

[Dick Smith]

In a comment piece in this morning’s aviation section in The Australian by Mike Higgins, Chief Executive of the Regional Aviation Association, Mike objects to the change in 457 visas which, it appears, will now exclude pilots and avionics engineers totally, while airframe and engine engineers are only eligible for temporary visas without any access to residency.

Can someone put me in the picture here? By the look of it there is a real shortage of pilots locally. Does that mean we solve that problem by having to bring in pilots from overseas? Is there any way of training more pilots in a short time here, or is that not possible?

Will this mean in the years to come that even airlines like Qantas will be forced to have Chinese and other nationals as pilots?

I would love to have some really good comments on this.

[De_flieger]

There's no shortage of pilots.

What there is, is a shortage of pilots prepared to work for the wages and conditions that are on offer.

[Tankengine]

What De_Flieger said.:ok:

A company can cry "no pilots, we need 457s" when what they mean is :
" there are no pilots with X number of hours on Y type aircraft prepared to work for $Z."

Plenty of pilots here willing to be endorsed on any aircraft type they wish to use, for a reasonable pay and conditions.

If the companies get their way in reducing conditions then in the future I can see Australia importing pilots while ours work in China for the dollars! :ugh:

[Aussie Bob]

I see Sydney Seaplanes is also making noise ....

"Seaplane Owner Will Struggle" (http://www.afr.com/news/politics/national/seaplane-owner-will-struggle-to-stay-in-the-air-without-his-457-visa-pilots-20170420-gvomss)

[Judd]

Is there any way of training more pilots in a short time here, or is that not possible?
There has never ever been a shortage of pilots in Australia, that's for sure. But the ridiculously high costs involved with learning to fly frightens people away. For example the costs of an MCC course typically $6000 is phenomenal and that is for a few days of lectures and sitting in a simulator learning how to read a checklist, talking to a simulated ATC, a simulated cabin crew, simulated ground company etc. In other words play acting. The MCC course was never a previous requirement. You learned on the job within a few days of flying in an airline. But $6000 up front is a real hit.

Have a look at all the new flying instructors hanging around flying schools waiting for a new prospective student to walk through the door. No doubt they would like to get into Regional Airlines. But those airlines copy the main airlines with exhaustive aptitude tests that have no real bearing on flying an aeroplane. Those aptitude tests knock many young pilots out even though they may good flying ability. And they even have to pay money to do the aptitude tests. Do the RAAF charge prospective candidates to undergo their aptitude tests. No way.
It is also certain that the Part 61 introduction has greatly increased the costs of obtaining pilot licences. Yet even so there is no shortage of qualified pilots in Australia. Ask a major airline like Qantas how many applications they have on their books. Probably a thousand or more?

[De_flieger]

Flying seaplanes sounds like a thoroughly enjoyable job, and I've looked into getting my seaplane endorsement. The problem is, every single job ad I have seen for seaplane operators requires a couple of hundred hours on type and a few hundred water landings.

That, and most likely a wage for line pilots (not the Chief Pilot or business owner) that means that a career in seaplanes ensures you can never afford a house in Sydney and will be renting the rest of your life, with all the follow-on effects of housing insecurity and relying on a pension in retirement, make it a much less appealing proposition. Sydney? A median house price somewhere around a million dollars, with a commute taking up a couple of hours of every day, because you certainly can't afford to rent long-term close to the harbour on a GA-type wage, means you'll add a couple of hours onto every work day and then slump face first into your two minute noodles from exhaustion every night. Or do a degree in Commerce, work at a bank 5 days a week and have your evenings free, and you can afford to hire someone to fly you around the harbour in a seaplane whenever you see fit - you can even drink champagne while someone else does the work!

[Slippery_Pete]

To answer your question, one has to ask another question... why are regional airline pilots in Australia packing up and dragging their family to the sandpit to work for Emirates?

Therein lies your answer, Dick.

[josephfeatherweight]

+1 for De Flieger, who put it so accurately and succinctly.

[Seabreeze]

In days gone by, organisations would put resources and funds into training people. These days it is a simply a rush to import someone who has already been trained elsewhere, rather than investing in personnel training. Aviation is one of the worst industries in this regard. There are plenty of junior pilots and pilot aspirants who would dearly like to be trained, but the beancounters with short arms and long pockets rule the day and insist on self-funded training. It is time that those organisations that rely on 457 visas to get cheap overseas employees actually change their philosophy and invest in training Aussies, rather than bleating about government policy.

Seabreeze

[chimbu warrior]

Float flying certainly is specialised, however I think the available supply of experienced foreign float pilots might dry up (no pun intended) whether 457 visas are possible or not. Canada and the US probably have the greatest supply of float pilots, however those pilots now have plenty of employment options close to home, in both landplanes and seaplanes.

Whilst I am not very familiar with Australian float operators, those operating elsewhere in the country seem to find a way to keep their aircraft flying. Is this just a Sydney thing?

[Hasherucf]

Go to NW Western Australia you will meet many pilots trying to live the dream. Movement in the industry is slow. Maybe airlines want fully trained pilots and don't want to spend on training.

[jonkster]

The backbone of aviation is a healthy GA industry.

It is flying schools turning out new pilots, young people deciding they want to fly and working through a CPL, heading out to try and get a job with at least the incentive of hearing of a previous crop of new CPLs getting a job up north or with a good chance to build hours instructing because there is a need for instructors.

It is the maintenance operators who can make a buck because there are enough aircraft flying that need to be kept airworthy.

It is folks wanting a PPL and can afford to do it, who keep the schools going, giving those new CPLs with a grade 3 instructor rating a chance to get their hours and experience up and willing to slog it out to get a leg in the game. And some of those PPLs thinking... maybe I could get a CPL and do this for a living?

It is charter operators who have enough work to pick up CPLs with a bit of experience and are hungry to step up.

It is enthusiasts restoring old planes and flying them and haunting the nooks and crannies of airports across the country but who inspire youngsters who think... what a cool thing to do! - go flying!

It is country towns having an aerodrome that employs a LAME or two and a little flying school and some Ag operators and with luck a scheduled passenger service all that bring some money into the community.

It is airlines who can draw on the pool of CPLs who have done their time in GA and are hungry to step up.

It is a whole ecosystem. Cut out bits of it and it gets sick. It is sick now.

My recollection was yes, there was always either a boom or bust in the numbers of pilots needed to fill the posts at the higher end of the food chain but hey, if you could afford to hang around during the lean times and build hours in the less glamorous parts of the industry, your chance would come.

The difference back then (I believe) was the cost. I don't know how young people can afford to get a CPL and pay their rent at the same time. Particularly if there is not a guarantee of a job at the end.

As less new blood comes in, the whole ecosystem dies. Flying schools close up. Look at how many schools at Bankstown today compared to 20 years ago. Flying schools disappear. Smaller maintenance operations start to disappear. Operating costs go up as they compete over less work. Charter gets expensive. Jobs get fewer and the ecosystem gets sicker.

When the median house price in Sydney is heading towards a million bucks :eek:, why, as a young person, get a massive debt (the money for a CPL now could've bought you a house 20 years ago) to earn a CPL where your career path is anything but a massive gamble, where you may never make enough money in GA to pay it back so pay it back doing a job where at least you get paid a decent wage?

So when the top end of the food chain needs new pilots there is nothing much in GA anymore so they either look overseas or train up green newbies who can play computer games and program a GPS under the eyes of older folks who worked their way up from C152s at the bottom... until even the captains will be computer game players who wouldn't know what carburetor heat was if it burnt them on the bum.

How to reverse this? How to keep GA alive? Wish I knew but it is not simply a matter of "make medicals easier" or "cut costs" or "cut red tape" or "pay pilots more" or just whinging.

A more lenient medical and less red tape aren't going to reverse that. May help a bit but it is not going to save GA on its own. Hard to pay pilots more when you are struggling to pay the hanger fees.

30 years ago I could afford to rent my house and pay for hours to get a licence with an average job and a little bit of money I had saved. I also could rock up to Bankstown briefing office and chat with a meteorologist and go over the NOTAMS in the briefing office and have someone check my flight plan and suggest maybe I plan a different route. I am not saying I want that level of service back again but now 30 years later we pay our way, get less and it costs more.

And so flying schools turn into Bunnings and Direct Factory Outlets and weeds build up under the old aircraft sitting on the grass (where it remains) in what was once a busy and humming aerodrome that once had bright eyed young new blood walking in the door every day and champing at the bit to become a pilot (or LAME or ATPL or instructor or buy their own plane or run a flying school or dare to try and set up a regional air service and maybe go broke but have a go).

:(

Like I said - how to reverse this? How to keep GA alive? Wish I knew. Tired of whinging. Wouldn't it be great if we could get it back again?

[Ultralights]

don't want to spend on training.

here is 99% of the problem. or, if training wasnt so bloody expensive here...

what ever happened to the idea of investing in staff, and providing training?

i even offered to work for Sydney Seaplanes for min 5 years if they will pay for training to get me up to speed. like a good old fashioned apprenticeship.

[Ixixly]

I echo what most people in here are saying, it's Employers unwillingness to invest in Training. I understand that training people and investing in their training costs money and involves risks, but there are ways of mitigating that, get people to sign a contract that says they agree that if they leave within a year or 2 they are required to pay back training costs at a pro rata rate! That way no one is forced to pay upfront, it keeps people in the job for a couple of years and covers the Employer as well.

Also paying Pilots properly would be excellent, the training is so damned expensive yet the EBA for a SE Pilot of a normal C206 or Airvan for example is just shy of $43,000 a year? Bump that up by a couple of grand I'd say and start cutting the red tape and overheads generated by CASA for GA Operators to help adjust for it and you'll start turning the tide I'd say.

Surely CASA should be audited and have it figured out how much it costs for a GA Operator on Average, find where those costs are coming from and figure out how they can be reduced. This should be simple for them to justify, they're promoting GA which means Pilots are able to get more experience before moving on and are paid better which means no longer having to work second jobs and flying with their eyeballs hanging out their heads just to make ends meet!!

[Dick Smith]

"The backbone of aviation is a healthy GA industry"

Never have truer words been said on this site!

Trust the CASA board will put on a new chief who has the ability and experience to reduce all the unnecessary costs. Yet I here that a suitable person has been rejected by the board!

[Aussie Bob]

I did several years on seaplanes and when I started my full pay began on the day I commenced work. This was also the same day my (provided) seaplane training started. My boss did the same for subsequent seaplane pilots.

If Sydney Seaplanes aren't prepared to do this then they don't deserve 457 pilots. Flying a Beaver is not rocket science and there are plenty of boat savvy pilots around.

[The name is Porter]

So who f@rked who first?

Was it the pilot who f@rked his pilot mate flying for free, an employer saw this f@rking going on and said 'f@rk this, these dickheads will fly free, why pay them?'

Or was it the jetstars & virgins that started out charging for endorsements, are they f@rking pilots by doing this or is it the pilot who agreed to pay for it, f@rking every pilot that came behind them?

Awesome, you're not paying for your endorsement anymore...........but you're on reduced wages for how many years? Proudly, the pilot can stand up and say indignantly 'I didn't pay for my endorsement, not me'

Or was it the pilot who f@rked the employer who said 'you pay the endorsement costs and I'll give you 5 years' then f@rked off after 18 months knowing that bonds can't be legally enforced. That's all right, indignantly the pilot can say 'I didn't do anything illegal' knowing full well they'd f@rk off for a better gig.

I got a good mate who spent 10 years building experience, working towards an airline job. It got too much for him, working in a ****hole while his wife and child were in another city, supporting the decisions he made. Whenever a Qantas or virgin eba comes up he says:

'All of them can get f@rked, I hope they get a pay cut. They came through GA, didn't work for the award, f@rked it up for everyone else behind them, now they're on 300k, whinging about not keeping pace with inflation, they couldn't give a f@rk when my mate gets killed at Horn Island in a piece of **** that they probably flew and survived'

He actually thinks it's you who f@rked GA.

Fact is, GA is pretty putrid. Everyone whinges but won't get off their arse and do anything about it.

Another fact is, GA is where the f@rking starts in the aviation industry, so that's where it's gunna stop if it ever will?

Thoughts Dick?

[KRviator]

An appropriate description of the industry. But one or two pilots jacking up and refusing to be paid any less than the award means sweet FA in the big scheme of things, because there's a half-dozen waiting in the wings who will quite happily do so. It is too widespread, too entrenched and too far gone for anything to be done about it now.

Best bit of advice for someone who wants to fly for a living: don't...find a job that pays better, has you home most nights, and fly for fun. The stress on your family is not worth it in the long run, and you will likely set yourself up much better in life without a $70K debt and a $40,000 income. If that screws over the airlines, they have only themselves to blame.

[josephfeatherweight]

We are but our own worst enemies as we love what we do...

[jas24zzk]

Ixixly wrote:-
Also paying Pilots properly would be excellent, the training is so damned expensive yet the EBA for a SE Pilot of a normal C206 or Airvan for example is just shy of $43,000 a year? Bump that up by a couple of grand I'd say and start cutting the red tape and overheads generated by CASA for GA Operators to help adjust for it and you'll start turning the tide I'd say.

A perspective on this, is that it is roughly inline with what a 4th year apprentice Panel Beater or Spray painter would expect to earn.
Or if you dig deeper into the wages regs, the minimum adult wage.

[Clare Prop]

Dick CASA costs are small compared to the cost of operating at one of the privatised airports, costs which are not only direct in rents, landing fees etc but also indirect, passed on by maintenance organisations etc as they have massive rents to pay. Pus of course the location specific charging by Airservices.

If you could use your considerable influence to lobby on behalf of operators who are at the mercy of greedy developers that would be awesome however as successive ministers of both parties have let them get away with this gouging for so long now I doubt anything could be done now.

I don't feel any sympathy for the operators complaining about the 457 issue.

[Ixixly]

Clare Prop actually brings up a really big point there, the major training organisations are at the major GA Airports, Bankstown, Archerfield, Jandakot etc... and with developers being put in control of these the rents being jacked up it has heavily impacted on the cost of training and there really is absolutely nothing that can be done about this I fear!

[jas24zzk]

457 unintended consequences.....

The tightening it up making it harder for employers? YAY!!!!!!

The whole 457 scheme when coupled with EBA suck eggs big time.

As most of you know I am a panel beater by trade, former shop owner etc. Life choices in the last 12 months found me living and working in Mackay. Just before xmass, i decided to join the team at a local shop that is part of an almost national panel shop chain. This particular chain is a MAJOR employer of 457 guys.

I can tell you in no uncertain terms, that these 457 blokes in regional area's are doing it hard.

I felt i was being underpaid for my skills and knowledge. The managers opinion was that the foreman, could cover any missing skills in the 457's, and I was there merely to back him up. The shop was busy and understaffed. During a discussion about hiring, i mentioned I knew some people that would take the pay hit for the lifestyle.
The manager took the time to show me the figures as to why aussies were not viable.
To pay the required money for 3 aussies, he could have 5 457's, and that was based on lower money than i could earn in melbourne.

In melbourne, i can easily draw 1300 per week in hand. In mackay......or any of this companies shops, if you are drawing 900 in hand, you are pressured heavily and made to feel that you are overpaid.

I knew i was drawing a short straw when i took the job, but had the view that the best way to understand the dragon is to stare it in the eyes.

457's are kind of forced to work in regional area's, as it makes it easier for them to get approvals, but due to the sponsorship nature of the visa, allows the employers to drive down wages. They lose their sponsor, they lose their visa.

$800 for a qualified beater each week...GTFO, some of these guys are better than some aussie tradies.....easily get 1500 in melbourne.

I digress...

[The name is Porter]

Jaz, my first job out of school was a panel beating apprenticeship, got the ticket then walked. I did other things for a bit, then returned to it for a 12 month stint to save for a backpacking trip. In '89 in Sydney I was pulling about $1700 a week, fixing smash during normal hours and a days overtime bogging up rust for rego checks.

Is that how far the conditions have deteriorated??

[ramble on]

Ok Dick, you started it - hands up if you have a foreigner and not an Australian flying your aircraft.

I have seen too many of our wealthy Australians and our airlines hire foreigners because locals wont or cant afford to take their conditions while a foreigner will see it as a chance to survive in paradise for x years while taking it in the jacksy in order to get permanent residency and then they scarper.

Yes Australians - please refuse to join the race to the bottom.

Crikey, flying on Jetstar I could be in Asia. Call a taxi - I could be in Mumbai....

[Hasherucf]

avionics engineers totally, while airframe and engine engineers are only eligible for temporary visas without any access to residency

There is a glut of out of work LAME's in the airline field since airlines have been sending heavy maintenance overseas. Seems to be jobs in the GA field if you are willing to travel to regional areas. Avionics engineers are rare, Mech engineers are easy to find. So it baffles me why they made this choice

[Kelly Slater]

I think that when certain Australian Airlines started charging for interviews, a new low was reached in the industry.

[jonkster]

In GA I see instructors being paid the same hourly rate today as I was paid 20 years ago. While I would love that to be different, how? Schools are struggling to make a buck as it is and many have shut up shop.

At the top end of the food chain, how viable would Oz airlines be if they paid pilots more?

As it is I have always seen aviation in Oz as an industry that makes an average buck in the good times and is hand to mouth in the bad times and there are as many bad times as there are good times.

If you wanted to make money in Oz you wouldn't run an airline. They keep going by racing each other to the bottom in terms of prices, services and conditions.

Perhaps what we need is a change in how the aviation industry is viewed by our pollies?

We have a regulatory body whose mission is to promote safety in civil aviation. Which is fair enough.

What we don't have is a body whose mission is to promote the viability of the civil aviation industry in Australia.

Not necessarily saying we need more bureaucrats and a separate organisation but perhaps lobby the pollies to change CASAs mission statement from:
To enhance and promote aviation safety through effective safety regulation and by encouraging industry to deliver high standards of safety

to:
To enhance and promote the safety and sustainability of civil aviation in Australia, through both effective safety regulation and the provision of services that encourage industry sustainability and development

A man has to dream.

[BPA]

You've hit the hail on the head, this is exactly what happens when a pilot refuses to work for less than the award or pay for endorsements. The next morning there is a line up of young pilots willing to work for free/below award and pay for endorsements.

Maybe they have wealthy parents, I don't know. But one thing I do know is that I cannot survive on the GA wage in a capital city with a family to feed and the expenses that come with that.

I once worked out my hourly GA pilot wage to be less than $15 per hour when I took into account my 11 hour days, when I was rostered for 8, cost of renewals, maps, medical and ersa/AIP all of which I paid for out of my salary. I wasn't left with much at the end of the week and I was a drain on the household budget. I quit soon after. I went back a few times thinking it could work "this time" but within a few months, cashflow starts drying up and the cycle starts again.

I don't know what the solution is, or even if there is a solution now it's this far gone.

I don't refuse to work under these conditions or pay for training just to be a smart ass, it's simply a matter of financial survival. I grew up in a very poor home, and I ain't going back to that, not even for flying!

Back in the early 90's a young CPL pilot spent 2 days at the entrance to Bankstown Airport with a sign saying he would work for free.

[Clare Prop]

I have had people offer to pay me to employ them. :mad:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Yes, I can believe that Clare.

Back in de days, (late '67) I worked for a well known aero club at Archerfield, and they had a couple of FK-27 FO's working 'honorary'.....
Something about getting 'in command' hours if I recall.....

Poor ole muggins like moi was to be 'stood aside' when these guys were 'on duty', as I was paid by the flying hour plus a small retainer, and said 'gentlemen' were 'FREE'.......

That's when I went 'West'......

No cheers then.....nope ....none at all...:=

So, in reality, not much change, is there..??

[Trevor the lover]

I see Rex now saying that without 457s they could not crew their machines.


Lost my job 2 years ago. Early 50s, >13,000 hours. Applied to Rex - 2 years later, still deafening silence.


Please don't tell me their are no Aussies to fill seats.

[jas24zzk]

So the crux is, top end of town the pay is ok
Bottom end, you are lucky to be paid.
But thats ok, when you get to the top.

That rides really really well for the guys that don't want the top job.
when I began doing my commercial, my goal was 340's with Rex.until i looked at the pay.

[Band a Lot]

GA has been training every Australian pilot for ever, none of the pilots give anything back to the sector. They just want to be airline pilots, and abandon ship at first hint of a larger type or a twin or a turbine to another (known not nice) employer along the way.

Look at the changes that GA need to comply with that reduces the bottom end - most introduced by CASA. Even the indirect like an AD, Australian mostly were easy to read. Now it is country of origin and while CASA post some it is up to us to work out if any apply - then it takes ages to interpret the rubbish from the core matter! (time = $'s). Every new CASA staff has an interpretation of a reg (it does not agree with the last CASA guy) but seems the CASA legal team support both of them and their opposite means of compliance.

Then no pilot likes a bond to cover "training" they want the training but free if leave in a short period after.

Why not grow a few and respect the training given?????

Do your term or pay a fine for jumping ship - you guys cost lots of money to companies!!!


They can only claim at some times a part of the direct cost of that training.

What about the direct costs? - NO a care in the World is my guess

Own worst enemy yes - training is far more expensive than it was- then you all ran off to the sand pit!


Invest your own $'s in training via your union, oh they never have! is my bet!!!

[jas24zzk]

The name is porter......

Jaz, my first job out of school was a panel beating apprenticeship, got the ticket then walked. I did other things for a bit, then returned to it for a 12 month stint to save for a backpacking trip. In '89 in Sydney I was pulling about $1700 a week, fixing smash during normal hours and a days overtime bogging up rust for rego checks.

Is that how far the conditions have deteriorated??

A good contractor now can pull 2k or more if he is gung ho, and slaps in a few extra hours, but that hinges around the tools available and the quality of the estimator.

The trade is screwed.

Seriousl Lack of training of apprentices (AME's are in the same boat).

I won't name companies, but the last one i worked for is a prime leader, but a serious race to the bottom $
Yes I worked for them for $900 in hand on unit based award, but it was 2 fold for me...i needed the cash, and i wanted to see how they did things. (industry groups I am involved in are highly critical, so working for them gave me actual knowledge).

Aviation and the auto body repair industries have an identical problem.
The total lack of investment in training, and i think mechanics are about to join the list.
Pilot training is also suffering...with you pay rather than your employer..............being bonded is a better option than self funding.

In the auto body repair sector, the change in technology is so fast paced, that by the time an apprentice finishes, he almost needs to go back to school to catch up.

There is a company called I-Car, that offers online courses in new car technology. These courses are primarily aimed at tradesmen and keeping them up to date.
Just before xmass, i enrolled and went through the RPL stuff with them. Of 276 modules they offered,
I qualified for 57.
I approached my employer to do some of the courses that he wasn't qualified to sign off on....his response was "sure, thats a great idea, let me know when you have done them so we can accept that type of work"
----------------------------------------------------------

The country is screwed.

Bring back tech and trade schools.......take trade training away from tafe.

[Dick Smith]

Ramble On. No. I would never employ a person on a work visa to fly my aircraft. Have employed lots of pilots over the years but not unless true blue.

It's the whole cost issue that's out of hand.

Then again CASA appear to have advertised lots of jobs at about $150k inc super . So what's going on here.

My whole life has been about getting the Aviation Act changed to reflect viability of companies. Even saw the minister about three weeks ago about this very issue. Got nowhere.

And I now hear a person who could do a lot to reduce costs has been rejected by the CASA Chairman and Board for consideration for the top job.

Why are they doing this?

[Dick Smith]

Just back from Queenstown NZ. Aviation booming. Heli's allowed to land in approved locations in wilderness areas. Try that here!

[Band a Lot]

Raptor, you are a very rare bird.

Yes folks like yourself an employer will go the extra mile and then some.

That training is a true investment in their company, and just to be sure you are true to word - lets contract it with a bond.

Then it is still yes to a face - but often a bitch behind the back.

[Sunfish]

Its a vision thing....... The vision of the Governments of both persuasions, CASA, Airservices, the airlines and the RAAF is that GA and recreational aviation are, at best, forms of "Air Pollution" and at worst potential terrorist threats. The vision of property developers and local Government is that all airports are Greenfield property development sites. The perception of the general public (in cities) is that GA and recreational flying is for rich silver tails.

In my short time as a pilot and aircraft builder, I have not seen nor heard one bit of support. let alone encouragement of GA from anyone in government, period.

[Oldbrigade]

I was very fortunate to begin an aviation career in the early seventies, and go through to normal international retirement age. I also have recent Regional Airline experience and saw first hand the abuse and bullying perpetrated on young pilots who go the extra mile to try to build their careers into something worthwhile.

CASA can have all the mission statements they like, but until they employ people who actually know something about Aviation Safety, nothing will ever change. There are individuals out there in the Regional World in CASA approved positions of authority who are clearly unsuitable for the roles they administer. These individuals have an undesirable impact on the lives and careers of many good people, and the consequences of this can be permanent and damaging not only to those affected, but the industry as a whole, resulting in a spiral of intimidation.

My point is that until the Regulator demonstrates some sort of empathy towards Aviation through action rather than words, all of the views mentioned in these threads will be sustained. It is very pleasing to see a fairly unified position on this matter from all contributors.

[Ultralights]

With all due respect. Why do you assume every pilot wants to be an airline pilot? I'm GA for life, yet getting anyone to believe that is a struggle in itself, and pilots like myself are placed in the same basket.

I'd be happy flying a SE turbine for life if the pay and conditions were enough to at least make ends meet, and the endorsement to go with it.

As an employer, surely you'd be happy to pay for some initial training if you had a guy/girl who loves being in GA and could potentially give you years, or decades of loyal service. Surely that has to be more economical?

same issue i have, something i still cant fathom, is being told by REX airlines, that i have to much experience.. WTF?
flying a commuter twin like the SAAB is the top of the tree i want to get to. not interested in the airline lifestyle.

Something like Sydney seaplanes would be perfect, could easily see my flying days out with that gig for the next few decades...

but, no, no one will invest in training, and as someone mentioned earlier, it apears to be more than an aviation thing.. seen any TAFE students lately?

[thorn bird]

"And I now hear a person who could do a lot to reduce costs has been rejected by the CASA Chairman and Board for consideration for the top job.

Why are they doing this?"

It's really quite simple Dick.

Self Interest.

There is a cadre of people in the top echelon of CAsA known as the "Iron Ring" who have been there for years, they are the ones who have lead Australian aviation to the bottom.

They know full well that to employ someone like Mike Smith, a proven reformer, would jeopardise their position at the trough. They are also aware that with their level of incompetence they'd be unlikely to find employment anywhere else.

From what people who have experienced the CAsA cesspit and left tell me, they left because they were competent people and recognised their talents would never be utilised. I'm told that there are rafts of people within CAsA who are only there because its the only place where they can study for their degrees, or masters and receive a massive salary in the process. Its no wonder it takes months, even years, to obtain make work approvals when half the staff are working on their own self interests rather than the job they are paid to do.
I know one company trying to get an aircraft on their AOC, got charged 16 hours for an FOI to check that a manufacturer supplied, FAA approved QRH, exactly matched the content of the manufacturers, FAA approved flight manual.

It is self interest and a reflection of the incompetence in the top echelon of CAsA that has produced the folly of our regulatory debacle, half a billion dollars of taxpayer dollars fritted away and more in the pipeline, to achieve absolutely nothing except a massive cost burden that has brought a whole industry to its knees.

Australia is just not being smart like the Kiwi's. Self interest right across the public service in Australia from energy policy, aviation,to almost every corner of industry is driving the mind boggling mountain of red tape, strangling everything in its path.

[Metro man]

457s are a two edged sword, they price Australian workers out but lower costs for consumers, and we are both. Restaurants can't afford to open on public holidays because by the time penalty rates are factored in, a nights trading will cost the owner money. They few that do open stick on a 20% surcharge making it unaffordable for many consumers.

It's unusual in many cities to find an Australian driving a taxi, Indian students who are happy with $10 an hour are the norm. Few people want to pay fares that would attract Aussie drivers.

If 457s could be used for restaurant staff you could eat out for less than half current prices but unemployment would increase.

There should be a levy paid for each 457 visa holder employed, that way companies could still fill positions where there are no qualified locals but an Australian would always be cheaper and it would be worth investing in training them.

[Clare Prop]

The only government funding going towards GA is the massive training loans/Ponzi schemes which have been discussed at length elsewhere.

[Clare Prop]

The first step, Raptor, would be for the Minister for Transport to rein in the property developers who have a stranglehold on the capital city airports. The only one who ever stood up to them was Mark Vaile.

Agree with you the massive wastage of money on the VET schemes (and it continues, although slightly less) could have made a massive difference to existing pilots ready to jump up to the next step instead of leaving masses of brand new CPLs looking for non existent jobs at that 150-200 hour level...if they were able to qualify before the administrators moved in because of the people enjoying the ride on the gravy train made all the money disappear.

[Ixixly]

Raptor090, there have been some moves recently to try and rein in the number of students being trained with VET, they've recently introduced a requirement to prove that the Schools are actively assisting their students in finding meaningful employment in the industry so they aren't just churning them out and leaving them high and dry. Small move but good to see.

[ManInJapan]

Some quotes from the AFR seaplanes and 457 article.
....
The five pilots Mr Shaw employs in winter and the eight in summer are mainly from Canada and the United States on 457 visas but aeroplane pilots have joined a slew of occupations now ineligible for the new visas (http://www.afr.com/news/politics/malcolm-turnbull-axes-457-visas-in-aussie-jobs-first-pitch-20170417-gvmlha) announced by the government this week.
"It's a terrible situation. If I put an ad out for a seaplane pilot in Australia, I would barely get a whimper," he told AFR Weekend.
"That skills market doesn't exist here and, ...
... flying culture often means those qualified tend to use smaller tourism companies as a stepping stone towards larger airlines such as Qantas.
...
Mr Shaw's business is the largest in Australia and turns over about $8 million a year. The pilots fly between 25,000 and 30,000 domestic and international tourists a year from its base in Rose Bay.
... Mr Shaw's business is seasonal and he employs about 30 people in the summer and 20 in winter; the vast majority of them are foreign nationals on a variety of visas.
"It's not just pilots. As I've found advertising for our new hospitality arm, whether it be entry level hospitality or administration staff, virtually everyone we receive applications from are foreign nationals who are here on a variety of visas.
...
Sydney Seaplanes courts the Chinese market and has employed market specialists on 457 visas before, in a bid to drum up Asian business.
... Mr Shaw said the new English language laws were an unnecessary interference in an open market, especially when businesses are looking to grow.
...
"As long as I can communicate with them, I don't care if their English is not quite perfect. I want their Chinese to be perfect.
"I don't need the government to tell me how and at what level my potential employee needs to be able to speak English.
"A person's ability to speak English should be determined by the market, not the government. This is not a person to become a citizen, this is a person to fill a temporary role."
Temporary roles that never end. It seems Mr. Shaw seems to run his whole business on 457 visas and is just rorting the system. If you pay people enough, they'll do the job. Giving jobs to 3rd world people will only make Australia part of the 3rd world.

The only concession I'd give him is the Chinese language issue, but we have immigrants from China and these workers should be available through standard employment practices.

[Metro man]

Soon Australia will be just like the UK, low end jobs being done by cheap unskilled foreign labour because the locals get more on the dole.

Foreign workers can be a huge benefit to a country but only if their use is managed correctly.

[Band a Lot]

ManInJapan,

"It's not just pilots. As I've found advertising for our new hospitality arm, whether it be entry level hospitality or administration staff, virtually everyone we receive applications from are foreign nationals who are here on a variety of visas."

I very much doubt you are correct in your comment about 457's being Mr Shaws work force.

You with any small research will find that "hospitality staff" is the visa that many backpackers use (417) and given that these visa holders can only work a maximum of 6 months for any one employer in the year (can be extended to two) Mr Shaw's seasonal work is ideal for a Work Holiday Visa holder (these holders have trouble getting work due to employers wanting longer term employees).

As for the pilots, I assume you can prove he is lying?

In my field there are persons trained at certain places I wont risk employing, and certain persons from certain nations the same.

Personally I think his points are valid. He calls it "seasonal" you call it "Temporary" =a question for you - how long can a pilot be employed as a casual (temp) until the by law they must be employed as "full time".

[Ixixly]

Maybe people don't want to work for him because he can only offer a few months of work and then what do they do as Seaplane Pilots? Perhaps if he worked towards being able to employ Pilots year round and took in rookies instead of requiring they have hundreds of water landings before they get there he'd have more who'd come and stay.

I'd love to know how many 457 Visas Air Whitsundays have to use...I doubt very many!

[Band a Lot]

Were would Air Whitsundays pilots be based?

How many have been there for 5 or 10 years?

What to you do to being able to employ people year round?

A crashed plane costs money to an employer - and I guess most put wheels down on low time pilots becoming Seaplane pilots! do you agree?

[De_flieger]

Were would Air Whitsundays pilots be based?There's a clue in the name ;)
But somewhere around Airlie Beach / Shute Harbour area in the Whitsundays region I'd say - North Queensland coast, if you arent familiar with the area. Flying a floatplane and all the backpackers you can handle...tough life! From their website it looks like a few of their pilots have been there a few years, their "Crew" page has a few brief bios. I'm guessing the tourist industry is fairly busy all year round, though less so through a couple of months of the wet season.

From the perspective of someone looking to work at a hypothetical floatplane operator that can only offer 6-8 months work out of a year, it sounds like a very insecure lifestyle. Good luck finding another employer so you can eat and pay rent for the other 6 months of the year, especially in one of the most expensive cities on Earth, when the second mob know that after a month or two of training they get 4 months useful work out of you then you return to the floatplane operator - or you stay with the second operator, and the floatplane operator is back to square one looking for another pilot prepared to sign up for a 6 month season. Now if a hypothetical operator offered enough pay in 8 months working that there was an effective full year's salary once 4 months unpaid leave was taken into account as part of the conditions of employment, I think there would be no shortage of pilots at all!

That would be a market based solution to a market based problem, which is something managers love when there's a glut of pilots, but don't like at all when there's a pilot shortage, so they turn to the politicians and newspaper columnists.

[Band a Lot]

Care to leak the accom/food costs for living on such an island? (wages too)

We can assume the Seaplane bloke offers ZERO in this area.

I don't think it is fair to tell a guy how to run a place - as long as it is with in rules.


I don't care if you don't like the rules BTW.

Have you ever paid for any other persons training? I have - so now I will no longer - they use you to self gain, with no respect.

[De_flieger]

Care to leak the accom/food costs for living on such an island? (wages too)
Err, Airlie Beach/Shute Harbour are towns on the mainland. Cheaper than Sydney by a country mile.

I dont know what the wages are, but if they arent having trouble retaining staff at Air Whitsunday, as it appears, then I guess the wages/quality of life/cost of living equation is favourable enough to keep people happy and staying there.

Not telling anyone how they have to run their business, just observing that being employed for 6 months at a time, followed by 6 months of unemployment, would be unattractive, so if that is the possible offer at an employer in Sydney, qualified pilots may look elsewhere when there are other opportunities out there offering a more stable career path. Maybe something needs to change to make the positions more appealing now 457 visas appear to be off the table.

[Metro man]

If anyone is serious about floatplanes, have a look at operators in the Maldives. Twin Otter Captains are on a good deal and go to work in shorts and sandals.

Good chance of going troppo though, and the islands have a few political problems, but definitely on a seaplane pilots shortlist.

[chimbu warrior]

Another issue that I find difficult to understand, and is particularly prevalent in he bizjet sector, is that when some employers are seeking staff with a particular type rating, they have no qualms about poaching someone who as been trained at the expense of another operator. In other words I'm not prepared to invest in training, but I want other employers to..........

[Clare Prop]

Poaching happens all the time in the training side of things. Not worth investing time and effort mentoring a Grade 3 who will be poached by one of the big International schools as soon as they are out of supervision.

[rmcdonal]

So why can't a bond work then? Are they really not enforceable if the employee walks?
The Award provides the minimum terms and conditions, most employers at a GA level pay exactly the award, if you leave during your bond period then FWA see that as you being paid less than the award as the deduction for the bond reduces your income below award rates. As such bonds are not enforceable when you are being paid near award rates.
E.G.
Award is $50k
Pay is $50k
Bond is $10k
Leave during bond period then pay for the year is only $40k, less than the award and not 'better off overall'.
Bond cancelled by FWA.

[Tankengine]

Poaching happens all the time in the training side of things. Not worth investing time and effort mentoring a Grade 3 who will be poached by one of the big International schools as soon as they are out of supervision.

If both schools pay the award and have some career progression why do they leave?

[Band a Lot]

Also often the full cost of training after a run away employee is a cost again!


Re advertise, read all applications, reply all/some applications, draw short lists, do initial interviews (who pays airfare if required), Internal discussions on who is still a contender, Do second interviews, get the idea yet that this is time of generally high paid staff and Chief Pilot that cost money when a bonded person jumps ship!!!


Not one of you would ever include these costs in your bond! maybe Raptor but that's a guess.


* What if (from memory) Mr Shaw only wishes to operate 6 months a year so he can have a life the other 6 months in a warmer climate?

Should he be denied this right he actually has, and be forced to employ 12 months of the year?

[sunnySA]

Inability to access 457 Visas, potentially big holes in some ATC rosters, up to 5 in SYD and maybe 20 across AUS.

[gulliBell]

In days gone by, organisations would put resources and funds into training people. These days it is a simply a rush to import someone who has already been trained elsewhere, rather than investing in personnel training...

We fly 40,000+ hours per year training our cadet pilots at Jandakot and Merredin in WA. They end up with a CPL, Command IR, and a jet endorsement, prior to commencing further training in China. And the cadet pilots get paid a training allowance throughout their course. We also hire experienced foreign national pilots to work in China. Australian operators should be required to train Australian pilots in a similar way before importing experienced foreign pilots.

[Wiggley]

There is a float operator in Broome who does only seasonal flying and isn't having any issues finding aussie pilots. He does pay well above award for these pilots.

I hope the irony is not lost on a certain operator who has a very lucrative business training up float pilots to operate seaplanes overseas yet only wants experienced drivers for themselves.
Flying floats in Canada is also very much seasonal. The norm in Canada to get into floats is
to spend 1 or 2 seasons working the ramp before moving into a seat. What's so wrong with doing this in oz? Yet some operators here will have someone work the ramp, maybe give them some ICUS and then send them off to work for another operator to get that experience. Again, rather ironic, yet typical of some operators.

In regards to living in the Whitsundays, to say that living costs vary significantly from those of Sydney (or Broome for that matter!) would be a gross understatement.

Flying seaplanes is a very specialised field and there are more than a few accidents caused by inexperience, with a good number locally and overseas being at the hands of pilots with many 1000's of hours on large aircraft, which unfortunately means buccas when flying floats.

The maldives, while nice, will not take ex-pat pilots with no experience.

To quote Richard Branson; Train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don't want to

[Band a Lot]

gulliBell, Just a guess but I think if there were population and or hours flown commercially comparison between Australia and China. That 40,000 plus training hours may not look very good.

Australia has probably been doing about enough training, but I think we will find far more Australia pilots are working overseas than 457 pilots in Australia. We have been loosing our pilots to other countries for a long time now.

The answer is "why do they leave"?

[Ixixly]

Does anyone have access to numbers of 457 Visas in the Aviation Industry? I'd love to see a breakdown of those working RPT and GA, perhaps even further broken down in Charter, Instructing, Floats, Survey etc...

And Band a Lot, how is that a "Right", he runs a business, there are expectations that come with that, he goes on about earning over $8million a year in Profit yet can't seem to put much of that back into training? If he wants to run his business that way, so be it, but it seems like now with the change to 457 Visas he'll have to find a new way to run it and hopefully that new way of running will include spending a bit more on training new Pilots and giving first timers a bit of a chance. Also interesting to read on the Sydney Seaplanes website their big speech about "Investing in the Community", but not in their own training apparently...

Is there no way to go about campaigning for a change to the Pilots Award to allow for Bonding? Surely it shouldn't be too difficult to put in a section that allows Employers to Bond Employees for reasonable costs for "New Type Training" (Can't say endorsements as that would leave out the lower end of town, ie C310s, Barons, 402s etc... as they are no longer endorsements). It would put an onus on the Employer to only bond for reasonable costs and for the employee to actually be willing to give that time to make it worthwhile. How would this get done?

Dick Smith, is this not something you could perhaps put some words out about as from this thread it seems to be a common theme?

[gulliBell]

gulliBell, Just a guess but I think if there were population and or hours flown commercially comparison between Australia and China. That 40,000 plus training hours may not look very good.


My point was, the employer is paying for that 40,000+ hours of ab-initio training, at no cost to the trainee. And that is just one airline, of several in China that do the same. How many employers in Australia, apart from the military, recruit an applicant off the street and pay for all of their training to Second Officer on Airbus, Boeing, or Embraer? Before an Australian employer can hire a foreign pilot, they must be obligated to invest in training Australians to do the job as a condition of being approved to sponsor a 457 visa.

[rmcdonal]

Campaigne to change the award to allow for, and make bonding legally binding under the award.
Pretty sure one of the big flying schools down south tried to have this pushed through the last time they looked at the award. It was rejected as the Award is considered to be the absolute minimum package that a pilot should receive, if you go down the bonding for training path were do you stop?
How much can you bond someone for? What can you bond them for? Does their instrument renewal mean you can bond them for the full year?
Raptor090 You have already suggested 5 year bonds, even the airlines don't bond for that long.

[Band a Lot]

If a company can not bond!


Then they have a right to employ only qualified persons they need at not less than award rate.

Here is the justification for such visa types as 457!


And it wont be GA that brings in the 457 replacement visa but the regional and airlines! but why don't you train? We do but the run to high paying countries, so we wont now for a while- we will steal some back.

It's cheaper.

[jonkster]

Not saying it is a bad idea but how would that work for a situation where an employee found a bonded employee was not up to scratch after their training?

eg you have a pilot apply for a position who lacks a particular training qualification but on paper and interview seems reasonable so you agree to pay for his/her training and he/she agrees to work with you for a year to repay the investment you are making in them. All good.

A few months later you realise they are seriously not working out as an employee/operator, they are a liability to your operation and you decide you made a big mistake employing them.

If you sack them, you have invested money in their training but have not received any benefit. They meanwhile walk away with qualifications you paid for. If you keep them on the job they are a practical liability (and will be costing you money or reputation as well due to poor performance).

What would the obligations be on a pilot employed under a training bond?

(And if that involved the employee being liable for costs could that be exploited by unscrupulous employers?)

Not saying it is a bad idea just wondering about practical details. Both employers and employees will need to feel they are not going to be exploited in any arrangement if it is to get traction.

[Ixixly]

Jonkster, I've only worked in GA myself so obviously bonding is something that doesn't happen but the Airlines I believe employ a bond for training, can anyone enlighten us as to how they handle this sort of situation?

I'd suggest there will be unscrupulous employers who try to take advantage of this sort of thing, they'll inflate the cost of "Training" and when they get rid of someone reap the rewards of doing so by having them pay back a ridiculous amount of money. But this is not really any different to Pay or Condition issues already existing in GA, we have a balance in play through the Fair Work Ombudsman, it would be a "relatively" simple case of someone complaining that they been unfairly Bonded, the Fair Work Ombudsman would require a break down of how the Employer came to their costs of the training and this would show whether it has been done fairly or not.

In the first creation of such an amendment to the Pilots Award allowing for Bonding, I'm certain guidelines would be created after some industry consultation on the types of costs that can be included and fair amounts that can be charged and what for.

I'm in agreeance with Raptor though, Bonds would be kept for things that would have once been classified as "Endorsements". Your initial training is fairly comprehensive and covers you for most Basic Singles, training for that in a new company can be accomplished on the job in ICUS, but more complex endorsements that require seperate and independent Training Flights because of demonstration of Emergency Procedures for example should be costs that can be covered under it.

Of course it would not be as simple as a statement in the Pilots Award that Bonding is legal or some such, it would require a fair amount of industry consultation as to what costs they believe should be able to be included and then decisions made based on what the majority want and what is fair, but in the end it would be an advantage for all I believe. Employers gain trust in the knowledge that if they take on new guys and offer to train them they have a lowered risk and Employees now have greater access to people willing to give them a go without all the upfront costs.

[TBM-Legend]

So its OK for hundreds of Australian pilots to move to other countries to fly but not OK for o/s pilots o come here. Please explain...

[gulliBell]

The explanation is, foreign pilots working in Australia displacing Australian pilots from jobs is not OK, which is fundamentally different to Australian pilots working in foreign countries not displacing anybody so qualified out of a job.

[Ixixly]

TBM-Legend, There's nothing wrong with Australian Pilots having jobs in other countries, there's essentially nothing wrong with Foreign Nationals having jobs in Australia either, but IMHO there is something wrong with not doing whatever can be done to try and make sure our own Citizens are gainfully employed before we go seeking overseas!

I doubt there are many countries that willingly and easily allow Foreign Nationals to take jobs in their countries without good reason.

[Metro man]

Why not add politicians to the 457 visa ? I'm sure we could find plenty who would work for far less than we pay the current bunch, and the generous entitlements could be cut back as well.

Plenty of foreigners would be willing to be an MP for $50 000 a year if it led to permanent residence and citizenship.

[BNEA320]

Why not add politicians to the 457 visa ? I'm sure we could find plenty who would work for far less than we pay the current bunch, and the generous entitlements could be cut back as well.

Plenty of foreigners would be willing to be an MP for $50 000 a year if it led to permanent residence and citizenship.must be a lot of Alitalia pilots now looking for jobs, now that that airline is history. They could apply on 457s couldn't they ?

[Band a Lot]

Don't forget there will be a number of the pilots on 457 visas because their partner got the 457 visa.

If a doctor has a family including a husband pilot, her whole family get the 457 visa. He has no work restrictions, but she the doctor has work restrictions and employment requirements to meet while she is on that visa.

* Also once here in Australia he could claim "Domestic Violence" against his wife and then be issued with a permanent visa. They could then reconcile a while later and sponsor her for a Partner Visa. :- a good chance this tactic will be used with the new changes.

[jas24zzk]

I think the biggest issue with the 457 program, is the ease of access.

Whilst it isn't that easy, when compared to some other countries it is a walk in the park.

Gaining work visa's in other countries can be quite difficult.
Under the 457 you can apply simply under your qualification, nominate your sponsored employer and you are away.

In some countries, you need your qualification, your employers sponsorship and the reason you should be given permission....i.e 10k hours as check and training captain.

Case by case rather than carte blanche by job title.

[Band a Lot]

Your comment is with no merit. Any Australian visa is no ease of access except a ETA, A evisitor or some other visa's seldom used. But they have no work rights - I am happy to be corrected. I do know the Australian visa system very well!.

[Ixixly]

Band a Lot, I think he's comparing it to other Countries. I have not had much experience with many other countries but from what research I've done in the past Australia does seem to be on the slightly easier scale for getting in and obtaining Visas.

[Clare Prop]

Took seven years to get mine :( was a 126 visa, independent skilled migrant.

I only know about the 408 (formerly 420) visas and they are certainly not easy.

[Band a Lot]

Yesterday on a migration forum a question was answered by a RMA (Registered Migration Agent). The poster working in film production has an Australian company willing to sponsor this person for a 186 visa (Skilled Worker Visa), he asked if the total cost of $13,000 was fair ($7,000 application fees and the like $6000 in "lawyer" fees") for he and his partner.

The RMA replied "Sounds about right for 2 adults if the Nomination is included."

Now these RMA's (lawyers) charge around $180 per hour, so that's over 30 hours by a person knowing how the visa system all works, and has access to documents the general public don't like PAM3.

As with all Australian visas you can do them yourself as I have done in the past with a Partner Visa that also has a fee of around $7,000. This application took me 3-4 months of heavy research and over 1 month more to actually do the application. Even then I had a RMA go over my application before I submitted it. I will also add I had previous visa experiences prior to this application so not a novice.

After lodgement there is virtually no contact from DIBP, we had our application approved about 9 months later - current process times are 12-15 months.

I am aware that process times for 189 visa are a bit faster than this and certainly if the applicant is from a "high risk country" (this depends on passport held and not what you would normally think).

On the other hand I worked overseas - A hand full of relevant papers, a verbal medical with a doctor, a small fee and a long 30 day wait. Then my work permit and residence permits were issued. A simple renewal form was required every 2 years.

Most Australians have NO IDEA nor any care for the state of our visa system, only what they have seen on the news about 457's and "Backpackers Visas" (Is no such thing as a Backpackers Visa FYI), but then the google and see what occupations are on the list and become experts.

457 visas are required in aviation in Australia now and into the future, is the approval system perfect? No, but you need to supply a solution that is workable for all parties - and it needs to be a one size fits all for all occupations not just the small aviation sec
tor.

I would love to hear some good suggestions, I will even pass them on to a MRA that can get them listened to via the Minister for Immigration.

[Clare Prop]

Looks like the above would be better off applying for a 408 visa if working in TV. No need for an agent.

Before a film producer can apply for this visa they need the approval of the MEAA. quite a burden of proof of "net employment benefit" to Australians etc is required. The actual visa process is straightforward once you have paid the MEAA and got your "non objection" letter from them.

Total cost? $360 for the visa, $110 for the MEAA last time I did one of these earlier this year. The rest would be going into the agent's/lawyer's pocket.

[Band a Lot]

The 186 is a Permanent Residence visa, the 408 is a temporary (up to 3 months, 2 years or 4 years for government - normally not extendable over 4 years).

That poster working in "film production" (don't know what sector of that field) was self employed in UK and intending on living in Australia permanently.

The restrictions on visas like the 408 including no pathway to a Permanent Visa make it hard to find good candidates when a position/s need to be filled by overseas person/s. If you could only work for 2 years then move to another country and find employment again - would you pick Australia or a country that pays higher expat wages with renewable contract option?


There could be another GFC in 2 years time.

[Band a Lot]

This is new -


https://www.border.gov.au/ReportsandPublications/Documents/budget/visa-price-increase-fact-sheet-2017-18.pdf

[Band a Lot]

This also is new - these are the visa's that are replacing the 457 visa.

Training Benchmarks - Skilling Australians Fund Levy

This levy will replace the current training benchmarks for employers sponsoring workers on Subclass 457 and permanent Employer Nomination Scheme Subclass 186 visas.

From March 2018, businesses with turnover of less than $10 million per year will be required to:

make an upfront payment of $1,200 per visa per year for each employee on a Temporary Skill Shortage visa
a one-off payment of $3,000 for each employee being sponsored for a permanent Employer Nomination Scheme (subclass 186) visa or a permanent Regional Sponsored Migration Scheme (subclass 187) visa.


Businesses with turnover of $10 million or more per year will be required to:

make an upfront payment of $1,800 per visa year for each employee on a Temporary Skill Shortage visa
a one-off payment of $5,000 for each employee being sponsored for a permanent Employer Nomination Scheme (subclass 186) visa or a permanent Regional Sponsored Migration Scheme (subclass 187) visa.


This measure is estimated to achieve revenue of $1.2 billion over the forward estimates period, which will be used to meet future skills needs, with a particular focus on apprenticeships and traineeships.

[Metro man]

At last, a sensible policy from Canberra. Employers will first want to employ Australians as it will be cheaper. If an Australian can't be found then the position can still be filled but it would make sense to invest in training as it would be cheaper in the long term.

Some countries have a list of occupations reserved exclusively for locals and these are often at the lower end, such as cleaning or driving, to ensure that there are jobs available for the less skilled and pay rates are maintained at a living wage.

[Band a Lot]

Call me sceptic but 2 things our government don't have a good record for spending our money wisely or economically but more politically. They also like the fuel excise introduced to make and maintain roads tend to shift funds into general revenue soon down the track when it suits.

I also compared to other fees DIBP think that these fees are very low. The new Visitor Visa for migrants parents (no work rights or medical) is extendable (offshore) up to 10 years at a cost of $20,000. I believe that in any 18 month period they can not have been in Australia over 12 months.

I also agree around the low skills reserved for Australians it also gives our kids a chance to get some work.

But in general I don't think there needs to be a skills list as such, and even though many of you pilots wont agree there are positions that would be filled by regular flying ability but other assets to bring.

2 spring to mind fast,

A Pilot with a LAME ticket working remote with no AMO nearby.
A multi (more than 2) lingual pilot working in the scenic flight field.

* but these would need to be assessed on merit does the LAME have experience on the aircraft being flown GA8 for example, and does the pilot speak the languages of a high % of passengers that use the company service/s?

If the answer is yes and no other applicants in Australia qualify or want the job, there should be no issue in my opinion. (I believe that an employer should be able to refuse an Australian with valid reason backed with proof.)

[Band a Lot]

But I need a float plane pilot with "x" now.

Go to DIBP say you have advertised for 3 weeks it does not look good for getting a Australian pilot, I have 4 months max before I will have to close my doors.

* DIBP, show me the proof (books given and advertisement receipts given)


*DIBP how long and how much to train up for this position?


* Company - Depends on the applicant (hrs etc) but from $10,000 to $15,000 would be in the ball park and take up to 8 months

*DIBP We will issue you a 457 valid for 10 moths from today, you need to supply your Australian candidate ready for training within 30 days. We will pay the training cost directly and you will be required to pay back 30% over 12 months from when Australians training is completed.

Company - thank-you.

[Band a Lot]

Raptor the same goals can be achieved, mine I don't restrict the company/employer in any real way and give them the chance to operate to their maximum potential while in the back ground, an Australian pilot is being prepared for the job.

The 457 employee will have a full picture of their employment contract and can be paid and plan their life accordingly.

The 457 and tax $'s are well spent and at all times and taxes will be payable.

This I don't see, has any losers and only winners.

Yes it is a bit simplified and only guess numbers used ( I assume 10 months only employment would attracted the 20 or 25% casual pay rate for the 457 worker (but that is no different to the end result of a full time wage), I also assume that on a 10 month contract the employer would need to foot all accommodation and relocation costs.

[Wiggley]

*DIBP We will issue you a 457 valid for 10 moths from today, you need to supply your Australian candidate ready for training within 30 days. We will pay the training cost directly and you will be required to pay back 30% over 12 months from when Australians training is completed.

Company - thank-you.

I agree with you there wholeheartedly. This is a very reasonable approach.

[Band a Lot]

Sadly Wiggley, this will never be how it works.


It requires someone to evaluate an application with no fixed requirement/s, determine it is valid on variable information sources, decide a fair amount of time for both training variations and unseen delays for length a visa to be issued and decide a fair and reasonable payment plan with no fixed figures.

It would take common sense, so it would need to be outsourced, to a call centre - that defeats the purpose of trying to give Australians jobs!

[Clare Prop]

Via Dick Smith, who started the thread after all?

[Band a Lot]

Yes Raptor that is the guts of it.

The employer get to chip in for part of the training over time, has a very short lead time in filling a position but most importantly is not restricted by red tape.

An Aussie pilot will get training and a job and pay taxes that actually repay the training cost.

If a good draft is written I can pass it on to several Registered Migration Agents that can then forward it on to the Immigration Minister. As well as Dick Smith's presenting it to his contacts.

Yes it would need to be able to have a selection criteria that needed to only include top up training.

Like for a Seafood Chef, they must have previous cooking training and experience. Not just get your nephew trained up for free.

[Band a Lot]

Oh and the 10 months was just an example. Maybe as low as 6 months or as high as 2 years, but this would be dependant on the training required (this is not just for aviation).

Lets say a specific job requires a 8 month course and only one course is held a year, that might require a 2 year visa depending on the time of application.

This is all the information the employer would need to give the DIBP when requesting a 457. Also it would be best to have the visa attached to a company not a person (you could have 10 different persons doing 1 month each if required).

[Band a Lot]

Raptor, years ago CES (centerlink) paid for training for aircraft maintenance courses in Rockhampton QLD as advertised in the Friday Australian. I enquired at my local CES not in QLD only to find it was only open to people that lived in QLD.

I sort of complained and after several days and meetings at CES, they stumped me!
If you get a letter with 100% employment chance after doing these courses (airframe 1,5,6 &10, basic gas with a PT6) and you joiun for unemployment benefits we will pay your transport to and from QLD, pay your CASA exam fees, your course costs, accommodation and the unemployment benefit for the 6 months.

They expected to see the last of me, no-one gives a 100% employment letter!


By end of day about 5 hours later, I had 3 letters of guaranteed employment with the 1,5,6 &10 licence - I was on the bus about a week later.

They were fairly shocked and I got +$20k in training and yes started a job on my return 6 months later.

[Band a Lot]

Also for thought new changes to the budget effect many visa holders including 457's. These changes also directly effect Australian Citizens.

The changes are to tertiary education, Permanent Residents are not treated like Citizens anymore. As an example a science uni course was $9,050 per year ($27,150) to $35,824 per year ($107,472).

Once a Permanent Residence visa is granted it is a 4 year wait to apply for Citizenship (I am not sure of current waiting times to process citizenship application but it is not fast).

So any current and any future 457 visa holders will need to take their childrens/partners education requirements into account as to come to Australia or leave. This can reduce our employment pool when we do need skilled workers.

As my wife is not from Australia and has two teenage children, they are currently on stage 1 of Partner Visa and that is a Temporary Visa. So their 4 year wait can not even start yet. They will have been in Australia 7 and a half years when they can apply for Citizenship.

My wife wants to go to uni now, both kids intend to go to uni after year 12. So in 2 years we will be looking at $100,000 + in education fees for at least 1 year & $75K for a few others. There are plans to move to 4 year degrees soon.

For us the smart move would be to move to Europe till the youngest finishes uni, free of charge and possibly return to Australia in 6 years time.

I wonder how many 457 holders are thinking the same?

There are several million people living and working in Australia as Permanent Residents for a variety of reasons they are not citizens.