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gearlever
22nd Apr 2017, 12:17
A Delta Airlines Boeing 767-300, registration N394DL performing flight DL-221 from Manchester,EN (UK) to New York JFK,NY (USA), was enroute over the Atlantic Ocean when a passenger went to a lavatory and found a loaded gun. The passenger handed the gun to cabin crew, who in turn returned the weapon to the owner, a female US Air Marshal, who had forgotten the weapon in the lavatory. The aircraft continued to New York for a safe landing without further incident.Incident: Delta B763 over Atlantic on Apr 6th 2017, lavatory or armoury (http://avherald.com/h?article=4a7f1270&opt=0)

Carbon Bootprint
22nd Apr 2017, 12:44
Soon to be a former US Air Marshal, I hope. Poor firearms discipline is not to be rewarded or overlooked. Inexcusable.

BluSdUp
22nd Apr 2017, 13:02
How many of those Cowboys does the US have?
Why try getting a gun onto an aircraft when you can just borrow one from this girl. Guns on aircraft , bad idea.

glad rag
22nd Apr 2017, 13:09
That must have been an interesting moment when the passenger left the lavatory all tooled up...

vctenderness
22nd Apr 2017, 13:26
What if the next person in the toilet was a child who picked up the gun out of curiosity and pulled the trigger?

Dead child? Bullet hole in fuselage? Decompression?

That Sky Marshall was incompetent and should be dismissed.

gearlever
22nd Apr 2017, 13:30
Bullet hole in fuselage? Decompression?



Isn't that a general risk concerning guns on board?

TWT
22nd Apr 2017, 13:33
Many bad scenarios could have played out. The passenger that discovered the gun may have been suicidal and,presented with the 'golden opportunity',may have used it.

Where do they get these idiots from ?

gearlever
22nd Apr 2017, 13:37
Where do they get these idiots from ?

To my knowledge they are employed by the TSA.

His dudeness
22nd Apr 2017, 13:44
I just wonder how many of you never ever have made a mistake ?

Really stupid one, which could have had consequences ? I made several in my life - and I┤m grateful that some have not led to a superior - or worse a peer - firing my arže.

Jet Jockey A4
22nd Apr 2017, 14:12
I agree with you in some circumstances but in this case it is a very basic no-no. You are a US Marshall on an American registered aircraft and your job is to be incognito in case someone wants to hijack this aircraft and your main tool for work is your gun.

How can you forget your main tool for work, a deadly one at that in the lavatory?

If the story is true and the gun was returned to her while in flight, she is no longer incognito and since this is now a public story I'm afraid she will be fired and perhaps rightly so.

b1lanc
22nd Apr 2017, 14:37
Couldn't agree more - inexcusable - but FAMs are rarely incognito to an observant pax in any case.

guadaMB
22nd Apr 2017, 14:39
Ok, the girl was in a hurry in the lavatory, maybe a gun is an embarrasing object to be "anchored" to the body in all moments of life (a lavatory excursion is another moment in life).
But...
Where was her brain at the moment of LEAVING the lav?
Didn't she take a LOOK around?
And last -but not least- are there many places to plant a GUN in a lavatory to think it could be left UNSEEN at the moment of openig the door and leaving?
:ugh:

RAT 5
22nd Apr 2017, 14:55
in case someone wants to hijack this aircraft and your main tool for work is your gun.

That's an interesting difference between the yanks and other parts of the world. Others might try other tactics first and use guns as last resort. What about tasers? Might they be more suitable as a first response? Firing shots in a crowded public place is not the first response on there ground; I hope. I wonder if this Sky Marshals thing has been really thought through in depth. Indeed, what feedback has their been from Sky Marshals about the scenarios they found themselves in? Or is it a case of "if I tell you I'll have to shoot you."

b1lanc
22nd Apr 2017, 15:05
I wonder if this Sky Marshals thing has been really thought through in depth. Indeed, what feedback has their been from Sky Marshals about the scenarios they found themselves in? Or is it a case of "if I tell you I'll have to shoot you."

Federal Air Marshalls have been on US flights since 1962. Took on a slightly different meaning after 2001. Obviously, they were not TSA prior to TSA existing. Below is a decent history. Note the reactions of FAMs after 9/11.

www.propublica.org/article/history-of-the-federal-air-marshal-service

I think you have about a 10 times greater chance of having cockpit crew with weapon than meeting a FAM.

dixi188
22nd Apr 2017, 15:28
" Bullet hole in fuselage? Decompression?"

Almost certainly not.
A bullet hole in the fuselage or window, would be just that, with a small leak of air.
If the bullet hit any wiring or systems, then it could cause problems, but unlikely to bring the plane down.

Don't believe what you see in movies.

gearlever
22nd Apr 2017, 15:33
Bullet hits joint of stringer and spante?
Maybe a much different outcome....

BluSdUp
22nd Apr 2017, 16:05
Interesting article. No hijacking prevented whatsoever.
Except for ElAl, no country allows for this insane practice.
I come form a civilized country with unarmed police and no death penalty.
Works like a charm.

Oh , and no guns for pilots.
That is just crazy.
Is that still done?

Airbubba
22nd Apr 2017, 16:22
Except for ElAl, no country allows for this insane practice.

Several other airlines in the Middle East have quietly operated into places like LHR and JFK with armed sky marshals for decades now. But, don't tell anyone. ;)


Oh , and no guns for pilots.
That is just crazy.
Is that still done?

We could tell you, but you know the rest... :=

Denti
22nd Apr 2017, 16:41
Even middle european airlines have regularly armed sky marshalls on board. I meet them quite often on my duties. But usually i have more weapons from normal bodyguards in the flightdeck anyway.

BluSdUp
22nd Apr 2017, 16:51
I used to work at NATO HQ in the 80s with SACLANT REPEUR.
Terrorists and communist scum everywhere. Me , my MB230E and the Admiral in the back. A Cosmic Top Secret, Diplomatic Plates and no need to know.
I know how it works.

Keep a low profile, use all resources if needed.
And never introduce anything that can be counter productive.

Guns in the air is dangerous, and has never done any good.
Children like to play with guns. Most grownups respect them.

IBMJunkman
22nd Apr 2017, 17:01
What if the next person in the toilet was a child who picked up the gun out of curiosity and pulled the trigger?

Guns don't always go bang when you pull the trigger. If no round in chamber, no bang. If manual safety is on, no bang.

Chances are the gun was a Glock. No manual safety. So there would be a chance of a bang. If agent was using "Israeli' carry there would be no round in the chamber, so no bang.

Too many variables.

rotornut
22nd Apr 2017, 18:33
If agent was using "Israeli' carry there would be no round in the chamber, so no bang.

But would an agent use "Israeli" carry with a Glock?

Intruder
22nd Apr 2017, 19:42
Bullet hole in fuselage? Decompression?
Isn't that a general risk concerning guns on board?
Hole? Yes.

Decompression? No.

A bullet hole would be so small that the outflow valves would have to close a miniscule amount to compensate. It might cause a bit of noise, though...

Gertrude the Wombat
22nd Apr 2017, 20:12
You are a US Marshall on an American registered aircraft and your job is to be incognito in case someone wants to hijack this aircraft and your main tool for work is your gun.
Is this yet another reason (apart from crew calling rent-a-cops to beat up passengers) not to use US airlines?

MG23
22nd Apr 2017, 20:31
Wouldn't they be using frangible bullets of some kind? Though an aircraft fuselage still might not be strong enough to stop them.

Kewbick
22nd Apr 2017, 21:46
99.99% of the time, a Sky (Air) Marshal occupies a seat that would otherwise produce a much larger revenue for the airline.

When was the last time you heard of a Sky (Air) Marshal intervening? I await the deluge of your historical Google searches...

BTW, as of today, right now, there are over **,*** (many) flights in the air over US airspace. Yup, right now..

parabellum
22nd Apr 2017, 23:08
That must have been an interesting moment when the passenger left the lavatory all tooled up...

I would hope that the pax remained by the toilet, left the gun where it was and used the cabin crew call button, one can hope!

parabellum
22nd Apr 2017, 23:21
BluSdUp - think back to 9/11, before entering the flight deck the hijackers attacked the cabin crew, this alone would have got the attention of a sky marshall who hopefully would have reacted before the hijacker had a chance to slaughter both pilots. The locked door we have now won't stop a determined hijacker but it will buy yet more time for the sky marshall to act.

IBMJunkman
23rd Apr 2017, 01:47
But would an agent use "Israeli" carry with a Glock?

No idea. I suppose it is up to the agent.

p.j.m
23rd Apr 2017, 03:13
The passenger handed the gun to cabin crew, who in turn returned the weapon to the owner, a female US Air Marshal, who had forgotten the weapon in the lavatory

Interesting that air marshals (especially female ones) are allowed to carry loaded guns onboard aircraft.

I think we now know where the terrorists are going to get their next weapon from.

Wannabe Flyer
23rd Apr 2017, 04:47
Interesting that air marshals (especially female ones)

Hmmm. I assume you also feel women sky marshalls should be used only to serve becerages

p.j.m
23rd Apr 2017, 05:04
Hmmm. I assume you also feel women sky marshalls should be used only to serve becerages

So you feel they are strong enough to keep hold of their gun when a muscley terrorist tries to take it off her?

Avenger
23rd Apr 2017, 05:52
In Turkey, there is a list of "VIPs" allowed to carry guns on board, including " close relatives" of high party officials, so that could be an absent minded grandchild, granny, half wit brother in law etc etc. I doubt these people would know how to use a gun, but its a common comfort factor there..on the other hand terrorists would know exactly how to use such a weapon. Of course these VIPs are usually travelling with their own plain clothes security personnel..

Wannabe Flyer
23rd Apr 2017, 06:06
So you feel they are strong enough to keep hold of their gun when a muscley terrorist tries to take it off her?

Wow!!!! let me just let someone else get this one............

Octane
23rd Apr 2017, 06:51
Do you need to remove your weapon to have a pee?

Matt48
23rd Apr 2017, 07:02
Do you need to remove your weapon to have a pee?
Surely she would be using a shoulder holster, why remove the gun to sit on the bog.

Herod
23rd Apr 2017, 07:10
Surely she would be using a shoulder holster, why remove the gun to sit on the bog.

Look at the number of mobile phones that have had a dunking. Not good for a gun.