American Airlines pax hit with stroller [Archive]

Airbubba

22nd Apr 2017, 17:57

Another view of the event from one of the articles linked above. Sounds like a non-compliant passenger versus an empowered union flight attendant:

Tom Watson, a first-class passenger, said that he saw the incident, and says that the female passenger responded strongly to the flight attendant's demand to take the stroller.

'She refused to let him take it and she was almost to the point of shouting,' he said.

But he said the flight attendant was 'aggressive' as he tried to pull the stroller away from her, and that his demands for security escalated the situation.

He said the stroller struck the woman in the head, and almost hit the kids.

'The woman knows not to bring the stroller on a plane, she refused to let it go - she was shouting, so she is also at fault in my opinion,' he said.

American Airlines employee challenges passenger to FIGHT | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4434620/American-Airlines-employee-challenges-passenger-FIGHT.html)

As much as it felt good to watch the big guy walk the officious little twerp back up the aisle, I don't know what else the captain could have done at that point. The FA left the plane after the captain spoke to him and no fisticuffs ensued.

According to the one of the pax who posted a viral Facebook video:

They just in-voluntarily escorted the mother and her kids off the flight and let the flight attendant back on, who tried to fight a passenger.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155979499894018&set=a.484407939017.256708.778784017&type=3&theater

SalNichols

22nd Apr 2017, 19:08

The mother was connecting through Hobby for an international flight. She more than likely wanted to keep her stroller for use in Houston to transport her kid between gates. Gate checking the stroller would have been a problem in that regard. This is where the lack of empathy comes in to play. You have a mother traveling solo with a baby for at least 13 hrs...At some point the FA needed to ask himself is this was the time to be a total douche. BTW, the PIC should have booted the FA, he was in no frame of mind to be flying. They should have also deplaned the giant...even justified, you don't get to threaten someone physically. Now, had he gone forward to file a complaint, that would have been excellent.

atr-drivr

22nd Apr 2017, 21:20

It was NOT the FA! It was a gate agent!:ugh:

p.j.m

22nd Apr 2017, 22:16

AA must have been feeling left out...

to be totally fair, we did not see what started the dispute here.

All we saw was a woman crying (which isn't unusual tbh), and then it was escalated by the male passenger in the seat behind her, who most likely did not see the original cause either, as he was pretty agressive himself, and I would imagine if he did see the original incident, and it was what was being portrayed, he would have taken it up when it happened.

The GA while he did respond to the aggressive male passenger in a similar manner, I don't feel he was totally at fault, he was somewhat defending himself actually.

p.j.m

22nd Apr 2017, 22:17

The mother was connecting through Hobby for an international flight. She more than likely wanted to keep her stroller for use in Houston to transport her kid between gates. Gate checking the stroller would have been a problem in that regard.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was what happened, and the woman got emotional when she was told she couldn't take her stroller onboard.

Tom Watson, a first-class passenger, said that he saw the incident, and says that the female passenger responded strongly to the flight attendant's demand to take the stroller.

'She refused to let him take it and she was almost to the point of shouting,' he said.

yes, indeed, this really is sounding like it was the case.

Gauges and Dials

22nd Apr 2017, 22:23

Another view of the event from one of the articles linked above. Sounds like a non-compliant passenger [...]

I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that the use of the term "non-compliant passenger" is symptomatic of the industry's attitude problem.

"Non-compliant passenger" is the attitude of a jail guard, not of a hospitality professional.

Cralis

22nd Apr 2017, 22:41

Why do people side with passengers all the time? That twerp who lept from his seat after threatening the attendant should have been removed. He was agressive as well. I thought the attendant simply stood up to his childish threat. And I thought the captain did ok. When things got heated, he intervened. It sounded like the other cabin crew were dealing with it. And he was there speaking now and again and I'm sure the other people were working with him.

I can't wait for my trip to Europe next month. I'm going to sit in business class, even though I paid for the cheap seats, and if asked to move - cry. Or just simply refuse to move. Because it seems when orders from crew are not followed - just refuse.

Ridiculous.

If the chap hit her with stroller... That's clearly wrong. And he should be sent away. But what caused it all? Not obeying rules?

edi_local

22nd Apr 2017, 22:47

How else do you propose a passenger who is not complying with the requests of a flight attendant be referred to as?

The fact is strollers don't often go in the cabin. I know it's been standard practice on any airline I've worked with to tag them at the check in desk or the gate and the passengers get them on arrival at the final destination, or in a lot of cases while in transit. Most major hubs have strollers that can be borrowed during transit too. My current airline's hub certainly does, so there is no need to get your own one back during any ground time on a long journey. Most strollers are too big to physically fit inside the overhead bin or even in an onboard cupboard. Yes, there are plenty of smaller strollers which collapse down to be the size of a carry on, but I can count the number of times I've seen those on one hand.

The fact is that many passengers are seemingly unable to accept that they are not always in the right and want to throw a tantrum when told No, you can't do that. They aren't the only person on the plane, the rules are the same for everyone. While I would never condone the actions of this staff member, it is not totally one sided. The refusal of the lady to give up her stroller, something which is afterall a perfectly legitimate, reasonable and indeed necessary request, is just downright ignorant and not how an adult should behave. So yes, in this case, as with many, a non compliant passenger was the initial cause of this whole incident.

_Phoenix

22nd Apr 2017, 23:29

Also, I thought the captain did ok, he hold the guy's shoulders and talked to furious passenger. About AA, personally I have only very good words to say. Once, AA accommodated us (2 adults , 1 child) at business, I guess the economic seats were over booked.

parabellum

22nd Apr 2017, 23:40

SalNichols

22nd Apr 2017, 23:40

421dog

22nd Apr 2017, 23:54

Ditto. Any person holding two screaming toddlers automatically deserves something in the way of consideration even if she "fails to comply".

b1lanc

23rd Apr 2017, 00:04

You have a stressed mother and child. Don't you think it's possible to de-escalate the situation, or is it absolutely necessary to exert your authority all of the time? As an American, I'm at a loss to explain our national lack of empathy for anyone but ourselves. It's damn embarrassing.
I don't know about stressed, but mother with TWINS. In later video she is holding both, one in each arm. My wife had to do that when I received sudden orders to travel one way and she headed back home - with 5 under 13 including twin 3 year olds and a change in ORD. I must say that the old UA was more than helpful and stowed the two small strollers on board to help her with the ORD connection.

rob_ginger

23rd Apr 2017, 00:26

I know, I know the solution! It's these damn non-compliant passengers. Why don't we just not have passengers? Then they wouldn't have any opportunity to fight with or annoy the gate agents or CC. Problem solved!

lomapaseo

23rd Apr 2017, 00:57

so what now happens to all the United VIP passengers who jumped ship to request a status match with AAL after the last video surfaced a week ago?

parabellum

23rd Apr 2017, 01:13

SalNicholas - The question of the stroller going into the hold should have been politely explained to the mother both at check-in and again at the gate when boarding pass was checked. When the mother raised her concerns about being without the stroller and on her own the AA staff should have arranged 'Meet and Assist' for her; Why do you assume a lack of empathy or exertion of authority 'all the time'? I explained a totally bog standard, time worn procedure that is followed internationally, hundreds of times, every day. AA failed, it would seem, but we don't know what exchanges took place between the mother and AA staff from the time of check in until the mother was engaged in a tug-of-war with ground staff. From a safety point of view strollers cannot normally be secured in the pax cabin, they rarely fit in an overhead locker and probably exceed the weight limitation if they do, there are no other areas where they can be properly secured that I am aware of and if loose in the cabin could cause serious injury in turbulence. Cabin storage is normally limited to overhead bins and wardrobes for passenger clothing.

SalNichols

23rd Apr 2017, 01:14

I don't know about stressed, but mother with TWINS. In later video she is holding both, one in each arm. My wife had to do that when I received sudden orders to travel one way and she headed back home - with 5 under 13 including twin 3 year olds and a change in ORD. I must say that the old UA was more than helpful and stowed the two small strollers on board to help her with the ORD connection.
I didn't see the second one. traveling with kids is such a challenge in the best of circumstances. You don't need a **** of an FA exacerbating the situation. He needs a new career...and the big dude shouldn't have threatened him unless he was going to go all in...which the FA actually deserved. He was already on his way to losing his job.

SalNichols

23rd Apr 2017, 01:17

SalNicholas - The question of the stroller going into the hold should have been politely explained to the mother both at check-in and again at the gate when boarding pass was checked, when the mother raised her concerns about being without the stroller and on her own the AA staff should have arranged 'Meet and Assist' for her; Why do you assume a lack of empathy or exertion of authority 'all the time'? I explained a totally bog standard, time worn procedure that is followed internationally, hundreds of times, every day. AA failed, it would seem, but we don't know what exchanges took place between the mother and AA staff from the time of check in until the mother was engaged in a tug-of-war with ground staff.

Clearly it wasn't made clear, or the situation wouldn't have presented itself...so what the hell, let's throw another FA tantrum, hit her with the stroller, and then kick her off of the plane...because that seems to work as public relations now doesn't it?

Ever since 9/11 U.S. flight attendants have seen themselves as some kind of law enforcement authority. One lacking any law enforcement training. They lean upon the perceived absolute authority of "passengers must obey any command from the flight crew" to behave like primping psychopathic twits. If you want to know why Americans hate flying...look to your cabin crews. By and large, they're unemployable as cops because most of them wouldn't pass the psych eval.

parabellum

23rd Apr 2017, 01:23

hit her with the stroller, and then kick her off of the plane

Now you sound like a tabloid journalist.

p.j.m

23rd Apr 2017, 01:42

You have a stressed mother and child. Don't you think it's possible to de-escalate the situation, or is it absolutely necessary to exert your authority all of the time?

Oh, that's ok then,

Do what she wants, when she is told no
become a "stressed woman with a child" and ignore the rules
Cries, screams, upsets the entire plane
incites a male passenger to take her side even though she's in the wrong (because its always the mans fault when a woman cries),
gets the gate attendant disciplined for doing his job and defending himself from an ignorant male passenger
gets an upgrade to first class for her trouble
and the aggressive male passenger gets away scott free.

If Americans think that's ok, then they need to wake up and take a long hard look at themselves.

kaikohe76

23rd Apr 2017, 02:05

I agree totally with Parabellum on this. This situation should never have got to the aircraft, it should have been sorted at the gate, like all such incidents should be. What were the gate Staff doing at the time of boarding?
As an initial opening bid when dealing with pax, try treating them with tact, consideration & respect, when this has no positive responce, then possibly call for the cavalry. I would agree though, that in some circumstances, the odd pax does not deserve such consideration.

SalNichols

23rd Apr 2017, 02:07

Now you sound like a tabloid journalist.

Except that is exactly what happened, intentional or not.
The last time I checked, this was the forum where airline clients got to vent their spleens. If you don't like it, tough. If you care to read and understand the problem that you people have created, you just might learn how to fix it.

Airbubba

23rd Apr 2017, 02:36

It was NOT the FA! It was a gate agent!:ugh:

Well the flight attendants' union seem to think that it was an FA:

Bob Ross, president of the Association of Professional Flight Attendants (APFA), released a statement that the tension of the situation came from many factors that were "beyond the control of passengers and Flight Attendants."

Here is the statement:

The goal of our 26,000 members is to make every flight safe and secure for our passengers and crew. All passengers deserve to be treated with respect. We also must assure that our Flight Attendants are treated respectfully and safely on board.

Our dedicated Flight Attendants at American strive every day to make the passenger experience the best in the industry. However this has become more challenging due to tight schedules, overcrowded planes, shrinking seats, and limited overhead bin space. All of these factors are related to corporate decisions beyond the control of passengers and Flight Attendants

There are really two stories here related to this incident aboard a San Francisco to Dallas flight. One, we don’t know all of the facts related to a passenger who became distraught while boarding a plane and therefore neither the company nor the public should rush to judgment.

Second, it appears another passenger may have threatened a Flight Attendant with violence, which is a violation of federal law and no small matter. Air rage has become a serious issue on our flights.

We must obtain the full facts surrounding these incidents. Our passengers and the Flight Attendants deserve nothing less.

Video shows intense moments between passengers, American Airlines crew | WFAA.com (http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/video-shows-intense-moments-between-passengers-american-airlines-crew-at-dfw/433267921)

parabellum

23rd Apr 2017, 02:40

Airbubba

23rd Apr 2017, 02:50

I only saw one child but I see reference to twins. The passenger had a backpack that looked full, two infants and a stroller, where was it all going to go? how many seats did she have booked?

According to American Airlines, the woman tried to bring a double-wide stroller down the aisle of a single-aisle A321. The airlines said she did speak English, and she had flown from Argentina to the U.S. but forgot she needed to check in the stroller and tried to bring it on the plane with her.

American's PR folks had a boilerplate statement ready to go in the word processor:

American wasted no time issuing a very straight forward statement, which came out 20 minutes after landing:

“We have seen the video and have already started an investigation to obtain the facts. What we see on this video does not reflect our values or how we care for our customers. We are deeply sorry for the pain we have caused this passenger and her family and to any other customers affected by the incident. We are making sure all of her family's needs are being met while she is in our care. After electing to take another flight, we are taking special care of her and her family and upgrading them to first class for the remainder of their international trip.

The actions of our team member captured here do not appear to reflect patience or empathy, two values necessary for customer care. In short, we are disappointed by these actions. The American team member has been removed from duty while we immediately investigate this incident.”

Video shows intense moments between passengers, American Airlines crew | WFAA.com (http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/video-shows-intense-moments-between-passengers-american-airlines-crew-at-dfw/433267921)

421dog

23rd Apr 2017, 03:15

I think doing away with the antecedent phrase "you need to..." would go a long way toward keeping things civil. When that happens, hackles are automatically raised, usually needlessly.

Gauges and Dials

23rd Apr 2017, 03:25

How else do you propose a passenger who is not complying with the requests of a flight attendant be referred to as?

That depends upon whether the requests of the flight attendant are reasonable and legitimate or not. According to some versions of the story, the airline told her she could bring the stroller on board.

The refusal of the lady to give up her stroller, something which is afterall a perfectly legitimate, reasonable and indeed necessary request

Wouldn't that turn on the question of whether or not the airline told her she could bring the stroller on board?

a non compliant passenger was the initial cause of this whole incident.

No, the initial and final and sole cause of this whole incident was an airline employee who seems to think that physically assaulting and battering a passenger is a reasonable way to act, aided and abetted by a corporate culture that supports it, and by hiring and supervisory practices that fail to adequately screen for bullying-related personality disorders among its customer-facing staff.

Gauges and Dials

23rd Apr 2017, 03:33

Why do people side with passengers all the time?

By no means do people side with passengers all the time. There are thousands of cases per year of drunk, obnoxious, provocative, disruptive, malodorous, or otherwise unsuitable customers being removed from aircraft, and the other passengers generally cheer when they are finally escorted or dragged off.

That twerp who lept from his seat after threatening the attendant should have been removed. He was agressive as well.

And had my wife or daughter been assaulted and battered by an airline employee, I would certainly have hoped that someone would have been equally aggressive in her defense.

I can't wait for my trip to Europe next month. I'm going to sit in business class, even though I paid for the cheap seats, and if asked to move - cry. Or just simply refuse to move. Because it seems when orders from crew are not followed - just refuse.

The part you seem to be missing is that ordering you out of a business class seat for which you did not pay, is an entirely reasonable request.

But what caused it all? Not obeying rules?
In what sense did "not obeying the rules" cause the employee to assault and batter a customer?

p.j.m

23rd Apr 2017, 03:35

the initial and final and sole cause of this whole incident was an airline employee who seems to think that physically assaulting and battering a passenger is a reasonable way to act

I suggest you go watch the video again.

The woman refused to give up her stroller. That was the cause of the original (off video) incident, apparently there was a struggle with it, and it hit her. She then screamed and created a scene on the aircraft even though she was in the wrong.

A male passenger onboard decided to take the law into his own hands and threatened the attendant who had been the subject of abuse by the irrational woman who refused to give up her stroller.

Some lessons to be learned here, first and foremost, the woman should have been denied boarding, instead of an ensuing struggle to remove the stroller she wasn't entitled to take aboard, and the male passenger who threatened the attendant should also have been removed from the aircraft.

Unfortunate that the attendant had to defend himself.

Gauges and Dials

23rd Apr 2017, 03:52

I suggest you go watch the video again.

The woman refused to give up her stroller. That was the cause of the original (off video) incident, apparently there was a struggle with it, and it hit her. She then screamed and created a scene on the aircraft even though she was in the wrong.

A male passenger onboard decided to take the law into his own hands and threatened the attendant who had been the subject of abuse by the irrational woman who refused to give up her stroller.

Some lessons to be learned here, first and foremost, the woman should have been denied boarding, instead of an ensuing struggle to remove the stroller she wasn't entitled to take aboard, and the male passenger who threatened the attendant should also have been removed from the aircraft.

Unfortunate that the attendant had to defend himself.

Neither you and I were there.

Some versions of the story say that the airline told her she could bring the stroller on board.

In no case, other than perhaps the possibility that she attacked the flight attendant first, would it have been legitimate for the flight attendant to assault and batter her. The appropriate response, if in fact he was in the right (which we don't yet know), would have been to say, "You may not bring that on board, if you do, we will call for law enforcement to remove you from the aircraft." The minute he touched her, the legal and PR game was over.

I didn't think the male passenger was even a tiny bit out of line. You don't hit a mother carrying her child in her arms. Period.

p.j.m

23rd Apr 2017, 04:25

You don't hit a mother carrying her child in her arms. Period.

No one said that happened, except for the unruly passenger who took it upon himself to berate and threaten the atendant. The only "evidence" was from a First Class passenger who saw what happened, and said it was the result of a struggle for the stroller.

parabellum

23rd Apr 2017, 04:27

Did the crew deliberately use the double width stroller as a weapon to hit the mother? Was the mother trying to put the stroller in an overhead bin, it wouldn't fit, the crew tried to remove it whilst the mother tried to push it back, the crew took his hands away and the stroller fell and hit the mother? (both scenarios alluded to by one of the newspaper reports), so much still to be discovered. The only fact we know is that a double width stroller has no place in the cabin and should never have got that far.

Wannabe Flyer

23rd Apr 2017, 04:41

Gauges and Dials

23rd Apr 2017, 04:44

No one said that happened, except for the unruly passenger who took it upon himself to berate and threaten the atendant. The only "evidence" was from a First Class passenger who saw what happened, and said it was the result of a struggle for the stroller.

Actually, serveral passengers other than the passenger you term "unruly" said it happpened:

“He jerked it away from her and almost hit the baby in the head,” Olivia Morgan, the passenger who saw the episode unfold, said in a telephone interview.

Ms. Morgan, an executive with an education-related nonprofit, said that after she complained about the woman’s treatment, the attendant shouted at her.

“He yells at me with his finger in my face, ‘You stay out of it!’” she said. “Full rage.

Surain Adyanthaya, who posted the video of the altercation on Facebook, wrote that the flight attendant had “violently” taken the stroller, “hitting her and just missing the baby.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/22/business/american-airlines-video-stroller.html?_r=0

I'm going to assume that American Airlines has access to more and better information than any of us do (even those of us who fly for AA). They were pretty quick to suspend the FA.

kapton

23rd Apr 2017, 06:10

The flight attendant is supposed to be trained to deal with stressful and awkward situations. The fact that the incident escalated to the point where a fellow passenger intervened, is a direct consequence of the flight attendant's handling of the situation. Regardless of whether the gate agent should have arranged for the stroller to be put in the hold, or that the lady may have raised her voice, the flight attendant should not have made a minor problem into a full-blown incident. The lady was travelling with 2 very young children, maybe catching a connecting flight, and was was under enough stress to look after her children as best as possible whilst travelling. She did not need some fat moron with the people skills of Hannibal Lectar to make her day even more stressful.

Cazalet33

23rd Apr 2017, 06:23

When travelling in America I often wonder whether the locals have any idea how much better the cabin service is in airlines of the free world than it is in the airlines of that benighted country.

Most Americans simply don't travel beyond the confines of their own Empire.

SalNichols

23rd Apr 2017, 06:39

Trust me, we know. It's why we continually bitch about crap service and fly SWA, VA, and Alaskan where they actually make an effort to treat you like a human.
I quit flying to Palmdale from SJC, because it was just easier and a crapload more pleasant to drive. I could get a damn speeding ticket from the CHP and still have a better day than the best day flying. That is how bad U.S. airlines customer service has become.

SalNichols

23rd Apr 2017, 06:46

parabellum

23rd Apr 2017, 07:26

Seriously, give that one some :mad: thought and get back to the sane people reading this.

99% certain that it was explained to her, as it is explained to thousands of other passengers world wide, every day, but she did not want to accept it. We gave that thought before we finished reading post #1.

wiggy

23rd Apr 2017, 07:26

TBF to crews everywhere some problems can be intractable.

It would be interesting see the whole story here, i.e. Before the video started, and most especially how having got the stroller onboard this lady intended to "secure" the stroller during flight. Most cabin crew I know of are actuallly pretty pragmatic but they are not magicians and there are legal requirements about stowage. If the lady didn't have an acceptable plan for the stroller, and there was no room in either overhead lockers or wardrobes for the thing (and I think we all know some strollers are big) then unless the passenger is willing to relinquish the stroller for hold loading the crew are being put in an impossible position. If the passenger then has a hissy fit about giving up the item you've got a problem.

parabellum

23rd Apr 2017, 07:31

The flight attendant said, at one point, "You stay out of this, you don't know the full story", to the big fella that interjected, unfortunately I doubt we will ever know the full story either, as it is entirely in the hands of AA management and staff and I doubt they will want to discuss it with Joe Public any further.

DroneDog

23rd Apr 2017, 08:06

As self loading luggage, I am 100% behind the crew on this one.

The female in question would have been politely asked I am sure a number of times to place the stroller in the hold, I find it impossible to believe that she was not challenged at some point during boarding or check in.

She adopted the "look at me with two kids - I am special and deserve special treatment" attitude, cue tears "manipluation mode on"

The flight was busy, the crew was working flat out and not wanting to delay the light. The female in question appears on with an item that there is no room for, in terms of the suggested hitting the child with a stroller, if it did happen, I am sure it was an accident, a casual brush rather than a deliberate assault.
The dick head who got up to square off against the cabin crew should be facing charges.

It's a pet hate When in economy I ensure my luggage is smaller than the required size, yet I have been on fully booked flights and watched as some passengers get off with a number of bags each one well over the size limit and hog the overhead bin space. Whilst I had to then sit in some discomfort bag under seat in front - no leg room.

I paid for my seat too, equality, we all have to share.

I have flown American a number of times and actually found the crew to be first rate, On one flight It was a very tired 747 on an Atlantic crossing and ended up with one of the worst seats in economy, (not reclining). I politely accepted it, but the crew ensured those of us with bulk head seats had more drinks and food and were looked after.

ATNotts

23rd Apr 2017, 08:31

The stroller should have gone in the hold, tagged and removed at the point of entry to the aircraft, the mother should have requested 'Meet and Assist' from the airline, (usually a free service), so that a designated member of staff could have been assigned to meet her.
I thought exactly the same. As the passenger turned up at the gate the ground staff should surely have politely informed the passenger that her pushchair would be placed in the aircraft hold and repatriated on arrival at destination.

If she objected she should have been confronted with two alternatives. Either comply with the request, or be denied boarding. She should never have got through the door with the pushchair.

What exactly is going on in the US?

wiggy

23rd Apr 2017, 08:52

What exactly is going on in the US?

My theory (no doubt controversial) is that some of this is possibly down to the idea of "Empowerment", possession of cameraphones, and the unedited and unbridled power of youtube,twitter, etc. It has played right into the hands of that almost vanishingly small percentage of customers who belong to the awkward brigade.

Nomennudum

23rd Apr 2017, 09:09

I thought exactly the same. As the passenger turned up at the gate the ground staff should surely have politely informed the passenger that her pushchair would be placed in the aircraft hold and repatriated on arrival at destination.

If she objected she should have been confronted with two alternatives. Either comply with the request, or be denied boarding. She should never have got through the door with the pushchair.

I agree. Once she did get on the aircraft there was going to be a confrontation and a delay. But trying to snatch the stroller from her could never have been the right thing to do. There isn't a good solution, and it is sad that manipulative people often get their own way. But, however long the solution takes, fighting a woman with two small children for the stroller was never going to end well.

Crownstay01

23rd Apr 2017, 09:38

There's a number of snap judgements being offered here by people who don't have all the facts, so in that spirit I'll add one of my own.

“Try it, hit me.” the attendant says. “Come on, bring it on.”

In my opinion, they're not the words of someone trying to de-escalate a tense situation.

DaveReidUK

23rd Apr 2017, 09:39

I thought exactly the same. As the passenger turned up at the gate the ground staff should surely have politely informed the passenger that her pushchair would be placed in the aircraft hold and repatriated on arrival at destination.

If the passenger turns up at the aircraft unaware that she would be relieved of the buggy at that point (and have it handed back to her upon disembarcation) then that represents a systemic failure.

And whether she knew that or not, it then becomes a damage limitation exercise which it appears AA couldn't handle.

WHBM

23rd Apr 2017, 10:23

Ms. Morgan, an executive with an education-related nonprofit, said that after she complained about the woman’s treatment, the attendant shouted at her.

“He yells at me with his finger in my face, ‘You stay out of it!’” she said. “Full rage. Discussion point as to whether fellow passengers should come to the aid of those less able to defend themselves against aggressive staff.

London Stansted. Gate agent shouts over the heads "Boarding. Have passport open at photo page, yeah". Elderly, aged 70-plus, arthritic hands old lady ahead of me shuffles up and hesitantly offers her documents. Young, fit (though pimply), 20-something agent snarls loudly "I said passport OPEN at the PHOTO PAGE". Old lady visibly upset.

Now I am right behind. Should I give him a piece of my mind about manners ? Or should we all just cower and let this go ?

ATNotts

23rd Apr 2017, 10:25

My theory (no doubt controversial) is that some of this is possibly down to the idea of "Empowerment", possession of cameraphones, and the unedited and unbridled power of youtube,twitter, etc. It has played right into the hands of that almost vanishingly small percentage of customers who belong to the awkward brigade.
No, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Simon Calder said this morning that within the airline T&Cs it states that videoing and photography is the cabin is forbidden. If this sort of thing carries on will we see the day when, for "security and / or privacy reasons" all devices with cameras will be taken away from passengers on boarding, kept secure and returned on disembarkation?

Now that would be controversial!!

txl

23rd Apr 2017, 10:39

This is a comment someone named "Eric" posted on a Yahoo News story on the incident. I don't know if it's true, but it looks reasonable enough and adds some perspective. I've added paragraphs for better readability.

I was on this flight directly across the isle from the woman filming the video. This is what I observed:

1.) woman gets on the plane pushing a car seat type stroller with one child in it, carrying a second child on her hip and dragging behind a very large folded stroller that was too big for the overhead bin or to go under a seat.

2.) the flight attendant shown in the video approached from the back of the plane and informed her in a calm manner that there was nowhere to store the stroller. The woman immediately escalated the situation and within about 30 seconds was screaming at him at the top of her lungs.

3.) the flight attendant evidently decided she was not fit to be on the flight (in my opinion the correct decision) and started to move her and her children towards the front of the plane.

4.) when they got to the from of the plane the woman decided she was not going any further. The flight attendant picked up the stroller and lifted it over his head to try and move past the woman. As he was doing this she pushed him and the stroller fell a bit and struck her in the face. She began crying loudly and dramatically. Shortly after this is where the video begins.

5.) The first class passenger then inserts himself into the drama with his faux chivalry but clearly has no idea what has transpired in the back of the plane since he was in a window seat in the first class section of the plane and could not have viewed the incident from his seat.

6.) after another 10 minutes or so the woman exits the plane only to be returned about 5 minutes later and taken to her seat. We wait another 30-40 minutes while various flight and ground crew come and go speaking to the woman. After about 40 minutes she deplanes again this time telling all of the passengers, who are now becoming vocal in support of the flight crew, that all she wanted was an apology from the flight attendant. Evidently that's what the 40 minute delay was all about. Then we waited another 10 minutes for the ground crew to find and remove her luggage from the belly of the plane.

7.) the flight finally leaves and arrives in Dallas an hour or so late. American representatives are waiting at the gate to speak with the first class passenger who made the threats. What I heard was a very apologetic tone coming from two American employees, as if the airline had done something to upset the first class passenger.

8.) when I entered the bag claim area the first class passenger was right in front of me and as soon as he made it through the revolving door there was a camera crew waiting for him on the other side to interview him.

That's about as factual of an account as I can provide and I realize there may be other parts of this story that I do not know about or did not witness. From what I saw:

a.) if anyone from American should have been punished it should be the ground crew who somehow letting this woman on board with a full size stroller. The flight attendant was put in a horrible situation by a passenger that most passengers in my immediate area thought seemed unstable. She escalated the situation, not him.

b.) in my opinion, the first class passenger should have been removed. Had the flight been in progress he might very well have been arrested upon landing for threatening a crew member. Additionally, he could not have seen any of the back of the plane antics of the woman based on where he was seated.

c.) I agree the flight attendant may have reacted too harshly in responding to the threatening customer in first class, but his actions with the woman in question were professional throughout the ordeal. I am disappointed American has chosen to punish him.

Source: American Airlines flight attendant put on leave after clash with passengers captured on video (https://gma.yahoo.com/american-airlines-flight-attendant-grounded-altercation-passengers-captured-073006084--abc-news-topstories.html) (In the comments section)

DaveReidUK

23rd Apr 2017, 10:51

No, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Simon Calder said this morning that within the airline T&Cs it states that videoing and photography is the cabin is forbidden.

Typical Simon Calder BS.

AA's Terms & Conditions contain no such reference.

American Airlines Conditions of Carriage (https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-service/support/conditions-of-carriage.jsp)

ATNotts

23rd Apr 2017, 11:06

He didn't mention AA by name, but I would imagine most major carriers have roughly the same T&Cs.

Personally I've got better things to do with my life than trawl through small print; after all, if I don't agree with them I can't buy a product / travel with a company!

txl:

"Eric" puts the whole affair into some sort of perspective. it beggars belief that someone should be allowed through the door of the aircraft carry that much stuff. What were they thinking of?

david1300

23rd Apr 2017, 11:14

The fact that some of you twits reach for law enforcement because you lack the goddamn interpersonal skills and flexibility to solve a frigging problem on your own makes me sick. How difficult would it have been to explain to her that her stroller would be waiting for her at the door in Houston? Seriously, give that one some :rolleyes: thought and get back to the sane people reading this.

Well that would gave really p!ssed her and everyone else off mightily because the flight was to Dallas

This is the trouble we face - uninformed, possibly ignorant posts. By your very post you show your ignorance yet you have the gall to pontificate on what should happen :ugh: Making comments not knowing the full story and even getting basic reported facts wrong - maybe leave it to the sane people

PaxBritannica

23rd Apr 2017, 12:22

As someone who's had to travel by air with a baby and a very young toddler, I have to tell you that your nerves are shredded by the time you get onto the plane. Miles of walking (you can't usually get the buggy onto a moving walkway), constantly looking for specialist bathroom facilities, trying to time feeding schedules, at any one time at least one child making a loud noise - it can be hell. Then you get to the gate and they take your buggy away, and you wonder what would happen if you had to deplane in a hurry....

The thing about babies is THEY CAN'T WALK. You can't put them down for even a second unless you're willing to lie them on the ground under everyone's feet. With two babies, you have no hands free for anything. If the buggy is put in the hold, you won't get it back if they need to get you of the plane fast. You'll be standing on the tarmac with arms struggling to hold two heavy objects. This constant sense of vulnerability is...not unstressful.

In other words, FAs need to be taught to treat mothers travelling with babies as if they're grenades with the pins out. They're not normal passengers, they're people being stress-tested by psychopaths.

atr-drivr

23rd Apr 2017, 12:48

Well the flight attendants' union seem to think that it was an FA:

Video shows intense moments between passengers, American Airlines crew | WFAA.com (http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/video-shows-intense-moments-between-passengers-american-airlines-crew-at-dfw/433267921)

Looked at the video in a bit of a rush...apologies..this from our pilot boards..

PostPosted: 4/22/2017 Post subject: Reply with quote
Taken from APC. There is always more to the story....

Description going around- apologies for the formatting:

I was on this flight directly across the isle from the woman filming the video. This is what I observed: 1.) woman gets on the plane pushing a car seat type stroller with one child in it, carrying a second child on her hip and dragging behind a very large folded stroller that was too big for the overhead bin or to go under a seat. 2.) the flight attendant shown in the video approached from the back of the plane and informed her in a calm manner that there was nowhere to store the stroller. The woman immediately escalated the situation and within about 30 seconds was screaming at him at the top of her lungs. 3.) the flight attendant evidently decided she was not fit to be on the flight (in my opinion the correct decision) and started to move her and her children towards the front of the plane. 4.) when they got to the from of the plane the woman decided she was not going any further. The flight attendant picked up the stroller and lifted it over his head to try and move past the woman. As he was doing this she pushed him and the stroller fell a bit and struck her in the face. She began crying loudly and dramatically. Shortly after this is where the video begins. 5.) The first class passenger then inserts himself into the drama with his faux chivalry but clearly has no idea what has transpired in the back of the plane since he was in a window seat in the first class section of the plane and could not have viewed the incident from his seat. 6.) after another 10 minutes or so the woman exits the plane only to be returned about 5 minutes later and taken to her seat. We wait another 30-40 minutes while various flight and ground crew come and go speaking to the woman. After about 40 minutes she deplanes again this time telling all of the passengers, who are now becoming vocal in support of the flight crew, that all she wanted was an apology from the flight attendant. Evidently that's what the 40 minute delay was all about. Then we waited another 10 minutes for the ground crew to find and remove her luggage from the belly of the plane. 7.) the flight finally leaves and arrives in Dallas an hour or so late. American representatives are waiting at the gate to speak with the first class passenger who made the threats. What I heard was a very apologetic tone coming from two American employees, as if the airline had done something to upset the first class passenger. 8.) when I entered the bag claim area the first class passenger was right in front of me and as soon as he made it through the revolving door there was a camera crew waiting for him on the other side to interview him. That's about as factual of an account as I can provide and I realize there may be other parts of this story that I do not know about or did not witness. From what I saw: a.) if anyone from American should have been punished it should be the ground crew who somehow letting this woman on board with a full size stroller. The flight attendant was put in a horrible situation by a passenger that most passengers in my immediate area thought seemed unstable. She escalated the situation, not him. b.) in my opinion, the first class passenger should have been removed. Had the flight been in progress he might very well have been arrested upon landing for threatening a crew member. Additionally, he could not have seen any of the back of the plane antics of the woman based on where he was seated. c.) I agree the flight attendant may have reacted too harshly in responding to the threatening customer in first class, but his actions with the woman in question were professional throughout the ordeal. I am disappointed American has chosen to punish him.

KelvinD

23rd Apr 2017, 16:25

Gauges and Dials

23rd Apr 2017, 16:40

so what now happens to all the United VIP passengers who jumped ship to request a status match with AAL after the last video surfaced a week ago?

They can look to the difference between Munoz's initial inept handling of the last incident, versus Parker's immediate apology and suspension of the FA, and be reassured that they made a good choice.

Airbubba

23rd Apr 2017, 17:27

Here's American's published stroller policy:

Strollers

Each ticketed customer is allowed 1 stroller. Only small, collapsible and light strollers (up to 20lbs/9kgs) can be checked at the gate. Any stroller that weighs over 20lbs/9 kgs, is too large or is non−collapsible must be checked at the ticket counter.

Customers are allowed 1 stroller and 1 car seat per ticketed passenger. Both items may be checked at the ticket counter or one item can be checked at the gate and one at the counter. These items are checked at no charge, when traveling with a child or to adopt.

https://www.aa.com/i18n/travel-info/special-assistance/traveling-children.jsp

lomapaseo

23rd Apr 2017, 18:21

gauges and Dials

They can look to the difference between Munoz's initial inept handling of the last incident, versus Parker's immediate apology and suspension of the FA, and be reassured that they made a good choice

after the fact, day later, retribution doesn't interest me, it's the scenario that scares me especially where a passenger steps in to offer physical retribution.

Piltdown Man

23rd Apr 2017, 22:52

Again, a highly one sided video of part of a bigger event. Unless the full facts are released the only two comments I'm prepared to make to make are that I would have spoken to the passenger who wanted the name of those employee. I would have told him that these events are nothing to do with him, that is my job. If he disagreed with me, I would have left him behind. Secondly, the Gate Agent knew how to really inflame an already bad situation.

Unfortunately, too many people drag far too much stuff past the gate into an aircraft. They seem not to care that their luggage won't fit or that others may be inconvenienced by their selfishness. I'm rather lucky I have not had to deal with this too often but either the luggage is properly stowed or its owner will not be flying. Explaining this nicely is the challenging part of the job.

Gauges and Dials

23rd Apr 2017, 23:20

AI would have spoken to the passenger who wanted the name of those employee. I would have told him that these events are nothing to do with him, that is my job. If he disagreed with me, I would have left him behind.

In what sense is having witnessed what the passenger believes, with some justification, to be at the least abusive, and possibly felonious treatment of a fellow passenger to be "nothing to do with you?" Also, wouldn't that depend upon whether or not the airline's policy required customer-facing employees to identify themselves upon customer request?

Gauges and Dials

23rd Apr 2017, 23:23

Is there any possible backstory under which the flight attendant ("Bring it on, hit me,") can possibly seen as anything other than an angry, thin-skinned little manchild who has no business being in a customer-facing job?

Other more professional responses to the passenger might have included a stone-cold, "duly noted, sir," an eye-roll, or simply pretending not to have heard the comment.

farci

24th Apr 2017, 08:31

Discussion point as to whether fellow passengers should come to the aid of those less able to defend themselves against aggressive staff.

London Stansted. Gate agent shouts over the heads "Boarding. Have passport open at photo page, yeah". Elderly, aged 70-plus, arthritic hands old lady ahead of me shuffles up and hesitantly offers her documents. Young, fit (though pimply), 20-something agent snarls loudly "I said passport OPEN at the PHOTO PAGE". Old lady visibly upset.

Now I am right behind. Should I give him a piece of my mind about manners ? Or should we all just cower and let this go ?
In this case - neither. British people hate to make a fuss but perhaps the best solution, as you were right behind her, would have been to offer to help the old lady get the passport open at the correct page and give the pimply yoof a Paddington** stare to shame him

**British kids TV puppet character

Piltdown Man

24th Apr 2017, 11:55

In what sense? The simple one. It is nothing to do with him. Yes, he is a witness, yes he can leave his name with the lady concerned, but very simply THIS IS NOT HIS BUSINESS. With regard to the pimply yoof at STN, the correct thing to do is either call the police to report an offence, complain to the airline or report this member of staff to their employer or all three. There may be other options, but again, you are not the police!

If you decide to get involved with somebody else's fight make sure that 1. You are totally in the right. 2. You are prepared to miss your flight. 3. You don't make it worse for the person you are trying to help. 4. You win. 5. Make sure the person really does wants your help.

Doing nothing when witnessing things like this is not an option, but make sure you do the right thing.

PM

Ian W

24th Apr 2017, 12:38

It all sounds so terribly simple, doesn't it? Take the stroller and tell the passenger it will be there for her when she arrives at her destination.
Well how about this:
My wife, my infant sprog and myself were on a BA flight from Frankfurt to Heathrow. I don't remember what the aircraft was, probably a 737. Whatever, I was sat next to the window and I looked out out of my window to see our stroller (push chair to me!) and the baby's car seat being brought out to the aircraft for loading. The person bringing them disappeared beneath the aircraft immediately below where I was sat, presumably for stuffing into a hold. Dead simple.
Then we arrived at Heathrow to discover the push chair and baby car seat had failed to make it out of Frankfurt! A fair old bit of "Oh dear, we are so sorry" etc but no suggestions as to how I was going to hire a car to take the family home when the baby's car seat was hundreds of miles away in Frankfurt! It ended up with a taxi home and no compensation.

And for those airline staff reading this is the reason that pax attempt to take everything on board with them. They have all had experience of the airline losing something or a close friend who has. They have all sat in their window seat watching the baggage 'handlers' tossing bags from the jet way onto the concrete below where their companion drags the bag wheels up along the concrete. The better made strollers can cost from $500-$1000 and are not built to be crushed under bags. At least some airlines now are tagging and recording strollers and similar items that are gate checked so they can be followed in the same way as checked bags.
If the airlines were required to pay a punitive fine to the pax if the airline lost or damaged an item entrusted to its baggage handlers, then less bags and items would be lost and damaged and less would be dragged on board by the pax.

TotalBeginner

24th Apr 2017, 12:59

Unfortunately I think these kinds of incidents are going to become more commonplace; air travel continues to become a more unpleasant experience every day and it's the airline employees that face the brunt of it. Is it any wonder that they're losing their patience?

Other's mentioned that this lady would have been informed about her buggy at check-in. These days, many people don't even go to a check-in desk. Online check-in means that people turn up at the gate, without having seen an airline employee. The gate agent (often working alone), is expected to check boarding passes, look for oversized cabin baggage, check visa requirements and label mobility aids of 180 or so passengers, under the constant threat that they will be held accountable for any erosion of on-time performance.

While airlines continue to cut costs and staff, it's the frontline employees that feel the pressure. It's easy for us to say that this incident should have been dealt with differently, but the guy is human. Imagine dealing with this nonsense day in day out, week after week.

The travelling public have changed considerably in the last 10-20 years that I've been flying as a passenger. People are much more self entitled, less considerate and if they don't get their own way, they throw a tantrum or threaten legal action. People refuse to follow simple instructions, and think that because they have seen this, that or the other on the internet they are suddenly an expert.

davidjpowell

24th Apr 2017, 13:21

Every time I travelled with a stroller & handed it over at the gate, I received the stroller at the other end at the gate. This was always clearly explained to me. Logical & a great move by airlines that ensure that one is not stuggling at airports with no stroller facilities. Naturally this was always outside America where it seems hospitality & manners still exisit.

Quite a few years ago I was pretty livid at Nice when they made us check the pushchair at check-in. The plane was then delayed.

After trying to control an excited 2 year old for 2.5 hours in a large and open terminal I was well cheesed off. Boarding was proceeded with her making another break for freedom, and my grab just missing a proper hold, but enough for her to fall over and hit her head.

I don't really understand what was going on with this video - however what is clear is that there was a lack of empathy.

ETA - just read the summary. A stressed out mother, with two young kids. I think this could have been calmed well with empathy. Make sure she get's the help she needs at the other end if she will have no pushchairs etc. Sympathise etc.

I used to deal with difficult customers over the phone many years ago. By listening and showing empathy, you could always bring things down a level. Understand the problem and look for the soloution that keep everyone happy. The travel industry has got to 'stringent' in my view and staff are too used to being able to tell passengers what to do, without understanding that you sometimes need to use more people skills to deescalate minor situations.

WHBM

24th Apr 2017, 16:51

The gate agent (often working alone), is... under the constant threat that they will be held accountable for any erosion of on-time performance.
This I am afraid is a significant part of it. The whole thing about delay codes reported back to HQ, attributing it to an individual, combined with minimalist 20 minute turnrounds, etc, encourages this "slam dunk" approach to the job.

I wonder how many memos had been floating around about preventing any delay. I wonder in contrast how many there had been about presenting a pleasant and professional attitude to the customers at all times.

Part of it is that there are numerous situations which, although they repeat constantly for staff, can be one-offs for the passenger. This traveller will not have been travelling with twin babies all their life, and it may well have been their first flying experience with them.

Cazalet33

24th Apr 2017, 17:09

Unfortunately, too many people drag far too much stuff past the gate into an aircraft.

I well remember an occasion in which a fellow passenger carried a domestic refrigerator upon her head up the steps onto an airliner in Lagos as cabin baggage on a domestic flight. The lady was quite outraged when the cabin crew demurred.

Was the passenger wrong? Or the cabin crew? Or the ground crew?.

It wasn't an American airline, so nobody beat the living **** out of the passenger/customer. Not a white one, anyway.

They don't do that in a Murrica, y'know.

SeenItAll

24th Apr 2017, 17:36

For everyone who thinks that the solution to these on-board instances is for GAs to better police regulations, the difficulty is this. Each layer in this customer service chain typically either wants to be the "good guy," or doesn't want to deal with problems. Therefore, rather than the GA refusing to allow the stroller down the jetway (as might be policy), they say something like, I don't think there is space on the aircraft for that, but you can go on board, take a look and gate-check it if there is none. By doing, that, they force the FA's to play the "bad guy," and avoid having to deal with the difficulty and conflict themselves.

Note, too, I have seen GAs give pax gate-check tags for oversize bags or strollers, and allow the pax to carry them down the jetway with the admonition that the pax should leave them at the end of the jetway to be collected for hold stowage. And I have seen many pax ignore this admonition and carry the bag that was supposed to be gate-checked onto the aircraft in hopes that they will be able to find adequate space.

PAXboy

24th Apr 2017, 17:44

Further, as we have discussed in here before, at many outstations, the Check-in Agent, the Gate Agent and the Cabin Crew are all reporting to (not just) different managers but to different companies! So 'passing the buck' is very important. For the CC, they will never be able to get Feedback to the Check-in Agent and the Gate Agent is the other end of the jet-way - or - at the other end of a bus ride.

So we have a process sequence that is chopped up into:

Check-in Agent
Security / Search
Gate Agent
Cabin Crew

ALL with different priorities / managers / employers. So you can see why so many pax just barge through and try their luck. For 99.9% of the time - it works. Consequently, the one time that it does not work is seen as a 100% failure. Which, in customer service terms it is but no one is going to reverse 30 years of outsourcing, cost cutting and shareholder 'value'.

Piltdown Man

24th Apr 2017, 18:28

You are right PAXb, but airlines can also throw another rock into that pond. You will find that different parts of a single airline enforce (if that is the correct term) different baggage policies to other parts, leaving the passenger to correctly believe that there is a lack of joined up thinking. And there appears to nothing more contentious than separating a passenger from their baggage.

davidjpowell

24th Apr 2017, 18:38

You have a stressed out mum, with two very young kids. I assume that she must have thought she could get the buggy's on. Then someone jumps up and says nope they are going in the hold or you are not flying... There is the prospect of the miles of walking at the other end, and not enough hands... The lady is going to have a problem....

How about empathy. Understand her problem as it is a problem.

I'm very sorry paying passenger. We have to put the buggy in the hold. I will make sure that we have someone meet the airplane to give you a hand to get the kids to the baggage hall, or we will make sure the buggies go on last and pass a message to get them delivered to the jetway.. (in fact this happens by default at some airports).

To allow buggies to be taken to the aircraft, but to insist they be picked up from the baggage hall, does miss the point!