Parallel Take-offs LHR ?

[SpringHeeledJack]

This evening at 19.00 I watched a PIA 777 float past coming out of LHR and then almost immediately (15secs) another 777 (Turkish ?) floated by. From my perspective they might have come off the same runway, but that is highly unlikely. So my question is, I'm aware of parallel landings at LHR, like when an A380 lands, often an A320 might parallel land to avoid the wake turbulence (assuming traffic flow allows), but I've never seen a parallel takeoff in many years of looking to the London skies, are they rare ?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

When I was there it was fairly unusual but not rare. Typically, 27L for take-off..northbound BA short haul leaves (what were) the A or B gates. After quick consultation between the Air Men, the short haul is offered a quickie from 27R. Usually gratefully received! Wonder if it still happens?

[treadigraph]

FR24 seems to show them both coming off 09R, maybe 3 miles apart.

[DaveReidUK]

WebTrak also shows them both airborne from 09R just under a minute apart.

Although they were presumably both on a DET1J departure, the PIA appears to have been vectored south of the SID and the THY to the north of it, no doubt to ensure separation.

[SpringHeeledJack]

That's interesting that they both launched off 09L. As said above the PIA was slightly south of the normal and the THY slightly north. Perhaps it was that the THY was going a bit faster and was 'catching up' with the PIA 777, because from my viewpoint the time gap from one to the other passing was very short. On reflection, no more than 30secs, perhaps less. Visually, it was very out of the ordinary. A friend says he remembers 2 VC-137's coming out of LHR almost simultaneously back in the early 1970's during a presidential visit.

[WHBM]

WebTrak also shows them both airborne from 09R just under a minute apart.Major US hubs would have got half a dozen departures off in that time.

[DaveReidUK]

Perhaps it was that the THY was going a bit faster and was 'catching up' with the PIA 777, because from my viewpoint the time gap from one to the other passing was very short. On reflection, no more than 30secs, perhaps less.

WebTrak supports that conclusion.

Although they were a minute apart over Hatton Cross, the PIA didn't accelerate appreciably and by the time they were over Richmond Park, the THY was only about 30 seconds behind it and travelling 50 kts faster, hence the subsequent vectoring by ATC.

[treadigraph]

Much difference in rate of climb Dave?

[SpringHeeledJack]

Don't call me Dave ;-) , but from my perspective (0ft) it seemed that the PIA was a good bit higher once they went their separated ways from the SID.

[jackieofalltrades]

Major US hubs would have got half a dozen departures off in that time.

Not heavies they wouldn't have.

[WHBM]

Not heavies they wouldn't have.
Did you never see O'Hare with the old 6-runway star-shape intersecting runways layout (in fact very much like the old Heathrow layout of long ago) in the evening rush ?

[DaveReidUK]

Much difference in rate of climb Dave?

Yes:

http://www.avgen.com/PIAvsTHY.jpg

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

It is exceptionally difficult to achieve one minute between heavies on different routes but if these two were on the same SID the min separation would be 2 minutes anyway. Why PK786 was only doing that speed I don't know.

[suninmyeyes]

Heathrow do not use 09L for departures unless extreme circumstances. Nor do they ever have parallel departures. They occasionally have parallel arrivals in the busy spot after 6 am. If it looks like there are parallel departures it is more likely to be a goaround or rejected landing from the other runway.

[DaveReidUK]

Heathrow do not use 09L for departures unless extreme circumstances.

Takeoffs from 09L happen mostly when delays push late-running departures into the night-time single runway operations period, where there is a 4-week runway rotation (subject to the wind). For example there were 10 late night departures from 09L on 20th January.

They occasionally have parallel arrivals in the busy spot after 6 am.Parallel arrivals happen between 6 am and 7 am pretty well every day. It's the only way ATC can get through that hour without significant arrival delays building up.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Maybe they don't have parallel deps now but I've done a good number during my time there!

[jackieofalltrades]

Did you never see O'Hare with the old 6-runway star-shape intersecting runways layout (in fact very much like the old Heathrow layout of long ago) in the evening rush ?

I'm aware of the old O'Hare layout, but stand by my comment that they wouldn't have been able to launch 6 heavies in one minute. Mediums taking VFR departure separation, sure. But not heavies. Even with the current parallel runway configuration and arrivals they'd be hard pressed to launch 6 heavies in one minute.

[Talkdownman]

Maybe they don't have parallel deps now but I've done a good number during my time there!
We never gave it a second thought. Often it was rude not to launch parallel.
P'raps they can't get the staff, HD...

[DaveReidUK]

Maybe they don't have parallel deps now but I've done a good number during my time there!

AFAIK, the last significant use of parallel departures at LHR was during Phase I of the Operational Freedoms trials in late 2011/early 2012.

Even then, there were only a few dozen over a 5-month period (though the official stats reported more than actually occurred) and the measure wasn't included in the later Phase II trials.

"Tactically Enhanced Departures" (aka "TED"), as they are officially referred to, would of course be an everyday occurrence if and when R3 is built.

[Talkdownman]

I can still hear the cry - "Bang him off the right from 16"...

[Gonzo]

Tactically Enhanced Departures refers to the practice of routinely departing aircraft from the designated landing runway according to certain triggers, not to parallel departures per se, so there would be no reason why they would occur in a 3R operation.

Parallel departures aren't conducted now due to Heathrow Airport not permitting them due to the effect on the community in terms of noise respite.

With the current separation requirements and SID route, IF PERMITTED, parallel departures more lends itself to tactical decision making on the spot, or to low-traffic scenarios, as it has been traditionally used in the past

[DaveReidUK]

Tactically Enhanced Departures refers to the practice of routinely departing aircraft from the designated landing runway according to certain triggers, not to parallel departures per se, so there would be no reason why they would occur in a 3R operation.

Fair point, I should have made it clear that I was talking about what would be SOP for a 3-runway operation. Though I suspect that the distinction between the two acronyms would be lost on the overflown communities. :O