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Berealgetreal
18th Apr 2017, 07:25
Scroll down to the list of removed occupations..

What new foreign worker visa rules mean


Malcolm Turnbull is abolishing the 457 visa program for skilled migrants. Here is a look at how the new replacement scheme will work and what the announcement means for those currently on a 457 visa.

• The new visa program will include requirements around work experience, English language proficiency and labour market testing.

• The new visa will include a short term two-year stream with a broad list of occupations reduced from the current list of more than 200.

• A second visa class, focused on strategic, long-term skills gaps will have a four-year limit and require a higher standard of English than the two-year visa.

• Both visas will require prior work experience.


‘Australian workers must have priority’
• Both visas will require a criminal record check, which is not currently required.

• The four-year visa would also require mandatory labour market testing in the majority of cases.

• The new two-year visa will not allow permanent residency.

• Anyone now in Australia on a 457 visa will not be affected by the new arrangements and will continue under their current conditions.

• The new scheme will require employers to advertise jobs before filling them with foreign workers.

• A fee of $1,150 will apply for the short term visa, while medium-term applicants will pay $2,400.

• A non-discriminatory workforce test to ensure employers are not actively discriminating against Australian workers.

• Strengthened requirement for employers to contribute to training Australian workers.

• The Department of Immigration and Border Protection will collect Tax File Numbers and data will be matched with the Australian Tax Office’s records.

Eligibility requirements for employer sponsored permanent skilled visas will be tightened.

• English language requirements will be stricter.

• A requirement for visa applicants to have at least three years’ work experience.

• Applicants must be under the maximum age requirement of 45 at the time of application.

• Employers must pay the Australian market salary rate and meet the Temporary Skilled Migration Income Threshold set at $53,900 as at 12 April 2016.

Concessions for regional Australia will continue to be available:

• Employers in regional Australia will continue to have access to occupations under the temporary and permanent visas, to reflect their skills needs.

• Existing permanent visa concessions for regional Australia, such as waiving the nomination fee and providing age exemptions for certain occupations, will be retained.

• Consideration will be given to expanding the occupations in regional Australia that are exempt from the age requirement.

List of removed occupations

The Department of Immigration has published the list of jobs removed from the new visa regime. They include actors; pilots, butchers, flight attendents, futures traders; jockeys, public relations managers, radio journalists, web developers. Read the full list here.

The current 457 visa

There are currently 95,000 457 visa holders in Australia, Mr Turnbull said.

​The Temporary Work (Skilled) visa (subclass 457) allows skilled workers to come to Aust​ralia and work for an approved business for up to four years, according to the border.gov.au site. Applicants must be sponsored by an approved business, but only if the business cannot find an Australian citizen to do the work. The visa holder can then work in Australia until the visa expires and travel in and out of Australia. If the visa holder ceases to be employed with the sponsor for more than 60 days the visa becomes invalid.

India has the highest number of workers granted 457 applications in 2016-17 to September 30 last year, followed by the UK and then China.

You can read the full 457 visa latest quarterly report here.

What Turnbull said

“The fact remains Australian workers must have priority for Australian jobs ... We will no longer allow 457 visas to be passports to jobs that could and should go to Australians. The new visa will better target genuine skills shortages, including in regional Australia.”

Reaction

“Labor presided over a policy which got out-of-control by their own admission. What we are doing is making some significant changes in abolishing the program, but introducing a temporary skills shortage visa through two streams.” - Immigration Minister Peter Dutton

“They’ve been the government for four years. We’ve got 1.13 million people who are underemployed not getting enough hours of work. We’ve seen the scandals of 7-11 and other rip-offs of foreign visa workers and we’ve got a lot of Australians who say they would like to get work but instead it’s going to temporary foreign labour.” - Bill Shorten

Anthill
18th Apr 2017, 07:36
About f%$#@/ time! ☠

Berealgetreal
18th Apr 2017, 07:47
Interesting stats..

Mr Turnbull said the Labor Party had been “Olympic champions” in the issuance of 457 visas. “Bill Shorten, the gold medal winner among them all,” Mr Turnbull said. “During his time the number of 457s increased by two-thirds during the last term of the Labor government, and less than 10 per cent of that increase went to the mining sector. So, this wasn’t about the mining boom and the need to bring in new skilled workers. These were people, working as labourers, working flipping burgers.’

TWT
18th Apr 2017, 07:51
Full list :

List of removed occupations (http://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Work/Work/Skills-assessment-and-assessing-authorities/skilled-occupations-lists/removed-skilled-occupations)

p.j.m
18th Apr 2017, 08:06
About f%$#@/ time! ☠

Do you trust Turnbull to look after Aussie workers, over business cost cutting?

I don't, whatever he implements won't make a scrap of difference.

Berealgetreal
18th Apr 2017, 08:32
So you're saying the previous system and Labor's use of the 457 was looking after workers?

Lookleft
18th Apr 2017, 08:36
What are Rex going to do now?

Octane
18th Apr 2017, 08:44
Lookleft,

You forgot Jetstar..

"hairdressers" are still eligible apparently.....

wheels_down
18th Apr 2017, 08:52
Bit of a beatup above when we are talking about probably not even 10 pilots.

Australia’s airlines were not immediately concerned with the announcement flight attendants and pilots would be among the professions axed from the list skilled migrants could apply for here.

QantasLink currently employs four pilots on 457 visas but Jetstar and Qantas have no other flight crew members on the visas.

Qantas spokesman Stephen Moynihan said the airline was recognised as an “employer of choice”.

“We work hard to recruit the best Australian talent and have only a handful of staff working on 457 visas out of 30,000 Qantas employees,” said Mr Moynihan.

Virgin Australia was also confident it would not be affected by the changes, and Tigerair was considering the announcement.

Berealgetreal
18th Apr 2017, 09:08
Less of a beat up for those stuck in GA having forked out 100k for their licence.

p.j.m
18th Apr 2017, 09:46
So you're saying the previous system and Labor's use of the 457 was looking after workers?

all Turnbull has really done is remove the occupations that were never used, or only rarely used.

The occupations like 30 odd it IT where the majority of current 457 visas have been used (or abused) are still on the list, and there is almost no penalty for still employing them.

Its typical Turnbull, paying lip service to the people, then doing nothing but sitting on his hands.

Mill Worker
18th Apr 2017, 09:52
About time, now get rid of all those existing on this basis in this country and have have gained PR status as a result of it.

Berealgetreal
18th Apr 2017, 10:01
Typical Labour pretending to be the employee's friend.

wondrousbitofrough
18th Apr 2017, 10:03
Can someone come up with an explanation why only Avionics engineers are off the SOL?

spinex
18th Apr 2017, 11:00
More window dressing. It will have some direct impact on aviation, but across the job market as a whole, there are still any number of loopholes to be exploited, never mind the virtually unemployable that both Mal Turnstile and Billy Shortpants are hellbent on importing as refugees. If they were really serious about clamping down they would be taking a close look at the Indian and Chinese sites that promise to arrange visas in exchange for money, quite a lot of money in many cases. A good hard look within the Immigration dept wouldn't go amiss either, but of course that would open a whole can of worms and no-one wants that to happen on their watch. Gutless pricks!

onetrack
18th Apr 2017, 12:56
Both visas will require a criminal record check, which is not currently required.Really? This is news to me. So, just how many crims have we imported on 457 visas?
It makes me wonder about how many drug dealers, ATM scammers, bitumen bandits, and other assorted scumbags, that our justice system, courts and jails are currently dealing with, have sneaked in on 457's.

One thing I'd like to know all about, is how we've gained the massive explosion in Chinese massage parlours in the last 10-15 years.
Most have to be fronts for various scams - from money laundering to drug dealing to sex trafficking - and if 457's are properly tightened, then about 2/3rds of the Chinese massage parlours would surely close?

Airbus Capt
18th Apr 2017, 13:16
Really? This is news to me. So, just how many crims have we imported on 457 visas?
It makes me wonder about how many drug dealers, ATM scammers, bitumen bandits, and other assorted scumbags, that our justice system, courts and jails are currently dealing with, have sneaked in on 457's.


Haha calm down mate, all those beautiful professions that you are mentioning all came here from Overseas 100 years ago "fresh off the boats" to build cities in Australia, nothing new on this side of the planet, you should be used to it by now...

gerry111
18th Apr 2017, 13:29
Onetrack, I reckon if the Federal Government banned all the Chinese masseuses coming in, there wouldn't be a happy ending.

The Banjo
18th Apr 2017, 14:14
Great news. Extend the ban to Kiwis and life will be perfict :p

Chris2303
18th Apr 2017, 16:12
Great news. Extend the ban to Kiwis and life will be perfict :p

That's OK

NZ have an election in September and there are already people asking to have Australians banned - JQ should be planning to take the Dash 8s back sooner rather than later :rolleyes:

tail wheel
19th Apr 2017, 01:57
Dept of Health in West Australia and Queensland Health are the largest employers of overseas workers on 457 Visas. I wonder what will happen to their health systems and services.........???

With apprenticeships down over 40% in the past decade and many Australians not interested in an apprenticeship (the national cancelation rate is 60%), I wonder how Australian employers will fill the skills gap........???

95,000 workers in Australia on 457 Visas, despite all the cost, hassles and months to engage an overseas worker. There is obviously a labour requirement which can't be met with Australians, particularly in rural and remote Australia?

neville_nobody
19th Apr 2017, 04:04
Or maybe we need to invest in a local skill base. Companies and the government play this stupid game of isolating everybody's skill set and ignoring the bigger picture. Nobody will hire on potential.
Why on earth is it so hard to get into Medicine yet we are importing over a 1000 doctors a year? Are they really of the same calibre and the same standard?
Same with aviation. Why is it that the locals can have enormous amounts of experience yet companies can just ignore this and hire foreigners who would be laugh at if they were Australians due to their lack of experience. But they have a type rating.

tail wheel
19th Apr 2017, 05:13
Neville.

One reason - right or wrong - currently the average period of employment of an Aussie is two years, then the recruitment of a new employee and training starts all over again. An employee can quit on seven days notice, employing and training a new employee can take months. The loss of a key trades person or middle manager can be near disastrous to a small business.

A 457 worker gives up to four years stable employment.

Berealgetreal
19th Apr 2017, 07:32
AND in some cases you don't have to endorse them!
Too bag GA hopeful!!
Awesome.

MickG0105
19th Apr 2017, 07:55
One reason - right or wrong - currently the average period of employment of an Aussie is two years ...

I don't think that's correct. The last decent study of average job tenure was back in 2014 and it had average job tenure for Australians at 3 years and 4 months. By age group that broke down to 1 year 8 months for under 25 year olds (largely unchanged since 1975!), 2 years 8 months for 25 - 34 year olds, 4 years for 35 - 44 year olds and 6 years 8 months for over 45 year olds. It should be noted that job tenure was role based; promotions and transfers within the same company were counted as "new" jobs.

Octane
19th Apr 2017, 08:43
Pull all the Kiwi's out of Australia and the place would grind to a halt! :}

haughtney1
19th Apr 2017, 09:16
Pull all the Kiwi's out of Australia and the place would grind to a halt!

And the median IQ would drop.....

Kiwiconehead
19th Apr 2017, 11:00
I'm glad they got rid of 457s, stops all those foreigners stealing all those jobs us Kiwis stole off the Aussies :}

goodonyamate
20th Apr 2017, 13:53
And the median IQ would drop.....

The Aussie taxpayer would fork out less welfare:8 :}

thorn bird
20th Apr 2017, 21:22
"Dept of Health in West Australia and Queensland Health are the largest employers of overseas workers on 457 Visas. I wonder what will happen to their health systems and services.........???"

Always seemed passing strange to me. I know there are wheels within wheels that drive these things, some of which are not apparent to ordinary laypersons.

My daughter graduated from a Queensland university with distinctions in Nursing.

She was required to complete post graduate practical work before she could actually practice as a nurse. She tried for over a year to get into a post grad course without success and in frustration moved to Sydney. She paid good money to an agency in Sydney who claimed to be able to secure a place for her if she completed various courses provided by them and work in jobs on the fringe of the health industry. Another year has passed and she is still waiting for a slot mostly doing part time work as a nursing aid, cleaner in Aged care facilities, or reception work in medical clinics.

I can understand her despair as she was highly motivated and anxious to progress in her chosen career only to see jobs she dreamed of taken by 457 visa holders.

I can also understand the angst of those young airmen and women who have paid their dues, worked diligently to achieve their dream, only to see 457 visa holders filling vacancies because its cheaper and easier than providing training.

TT738
20th Apr 2017, 22:01
That's OK

NZ have an election in September and there are already people asking to have Australians banned - JQ should be planning to take the Dash 8s back sooner rather than later :rolleyes:

Kiwis have free access to Australia & v.v.

TT738
20th Apr 2017, 22:03
Pull all the Kiwi's out of Australia and the place would grind to a halt! :}then they'd simply do fifo from nz

TT738
20th Apr 2017, 22:06
"Dept of Health in West Australia and Queensland Health are the largest employers of overseas workers on 457 Visas. I wonder what will happen to their health systems and services.........???"

Always seemed passing strange to me. I know there are wheels within wheels that drive these things, some of which are not apparent to ordinary laypersons.

My daughter graduated from a Queensland university with distinctions in Nursing.

She was required to complete post graduate practical work before she could actually practice as a nurse. She tried for over a year to get into a post grad course without success and in frustration moved to Sydney. She paid good money to an agency in Sydney who claimed to be able to secure a place for her if she completed various courses provided by them and work in jobs on the fringe of the health industry. Another year has passed and she is still waiting for a slot mostly doing part time work as a nursing aid, cleaner in Aged care facilities, or reception work in medical clinics.

I can understand her despair as she was highly motivated and anxious to progress in her chosen career only to see jobs she dreamed of taken by 457 visa holders.

I can also understand the angst of those young airmen and women who have paid their dues, worked diligently to achieve their dream, only to see 457 visa holders filling vacancies because its cheaper and easier than providing training.for some reason new grads think they are worth a fortune or think they should be running the place. In case of nurses & other medical staff 457 visas holders will work for less & stay away from unions. Eg. Nurses union are Nazis. Essential services won't be effected in the slightest.

CurtainTwitcher
20th Apr 2017, 23:03
Yes, there is such a thing as too much immigration
TIM COLEBATCH
20 APRIL 2017

Between 2008 and 2016, in net terms, the Australian labour market expanded by 474,000 full-time jobs. But only 74,000 of them went to people born in Australia. That’s fewer than one in six.

That’s not because the Australian-born are a small minority. Two-thirds of all working-age residents of this country were born here. Yet roughly three-quarters of the growth in full-time jobs since the global financial crisis has gone to recent migrants.

I am unambiguously pro-immigration, but if the level and nature of the immigration are not working for us, I suggest we turn down the tap.

Australian Bureau of Statistics figures ignored by analysts reveal that of those 474,000 new full-time jobs, in net terms, 364,000 have been filled by migrants who have arrived in Australia since 2001 – most of them since the GFC.

It is a stunning demonstration of why the Turnbull government had no choice yesterday but to flag the replacement of the 457 visa program, under which many of those migrants have arrived here. They have come from all parts of the world, but almost half are from one part: the Indian subcontinent. While only a net 74,000 full-time jobs have been generated since 2008 for workers born in Australia, a staggering 168,000 of them have been generated for workers born in India and its neighbours.
plenty of ABS stats in the article

From the conclusion (my bold)
Our future depends on Australians developing the skills to maintain a high-income, technologically advanced country in an increasingly competitive world. We made a mistake in following the US model of importing skilled labour and leaving the young in the rustbelt to scrape by as best they can. There are many reasons why our migrant workers are not generating enough demand to replace the jobs they have taken: what is clear is that our current system is not working for those who were born and raised here.

The story continues: Yes, there is such a thing as too much immigration (http://insidestory.org.au/yes-there-is-such-a-thing-as-too-much-immigration)


Thorn Bird, you should follow up one of the links in the article about the glut of GP's coming in under 457's (http://tapri.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/GP-oversupply-ignoring-the-evidence-12-Dec-2016.pdf), I wonder if it is a similar case for Nurses.

gtseraf
20th Apr 2017, 23:15
look at the number of Australian pilots plying their trade overseas. One has to ask why they choose to go overseas rather than work for local companies, who are then so short they have to employ 457 visa pilots. $$$$$$$$??

pilotchute
21st Apr 2017, 01:33
The majority of 457 visa holders I have come across were doing jobs that wouldn't be hard to fill with locals. The fact is they were being paid way less than what locals would accept. I used to work with a guy who was here on a 457 visa and he was getting paid 100k a year to fill an upper management position. The aussie he replaced was on 150k.

gordonfvckingramsay
21st Apr 2017, 02:04
The majority of 457 visa holders I have come across were doing jobs that wouldn't be hard to fill with locals. The fact is they were being paid way less than what locals would accept. I used to work with a guy who was here on a 457 visa and he was getting paid 100k a year to fill an upper management position. The aussie he replaced was on 150k.

My thoughts exactly Pilotchute!

There isn't a skills shortage in Australia and the use of that term was misleading on the governments behalf. There is however a dire shortage of skilled workers willing to work under third world conditions for fvck all, and that's because we are not India. When the government conveniently omitted that distinction, they showed their hand and where they intend to send Australia. If you believe other statistics, we are the hardest working people in the developed world, not hard enough it seems.

Good riddance 457!

unobtanium
21st Apr 2017, 05:48
The majority of 457 visa holders I have come across were doing jobs that wouldn't be hard to fill with locals. The fact is they were being paid way less than what locals would accept. I used to work with a guy who was here on a 457 visa and he was getting paid 100k a year to fill an upper management position. The aussie he replaced was on 150k.

And he probably performs better than the aussie he replaced. Employers prefer 457 visa employees because they work harder, whinge less, take less "sickies" and do not have a sense of entitlement. Oh and they cost less, not necessarily in immediate $ terms, eg liability, retirement benefits etc etc.....

pilotchute
21st Apr 2017, 06:45
Uno,

Sorry to rain on your parade but both individuals concerned were very good at their jobs.

The position became vacant due to retirement. The 457 visa holder left within a year because he quickly realised he was getting short changed.

gordonfvckingramsay
21st Apr 2017, 07:15
And he probably performs better than the aussie he replaced. Employers prefer 457 visa employees because they work harder, whinge less, take less "sickies" and do not have a sense of entitlement. Oh and they cost less, not necessarily in immediate $ terms, eg liability, retirement benefits etc etc.....

An alternative view would be the myriad other economies in the developed world that view all those afore mentioned terms and conditions as positives. Performing better doesn't necessarily mean being cheaper and overworked. Australia used to be an aspirational nation.

mikk_13
21st Apr 2017, 07:50
Well in ATC- ASA hires overseas controllers and offers them higher salaries and signup bonuses. If you are an equally/more qualified Australian, your offer is far less.

It is well known in ATC circles that this is the case.

bolthead
21st Apr 2017, 10:19
Now I know why with Perth ATC, sometimes, an aussie accent is few and far between.

Left 270
21st Apr 2017, 12:52
I wonder if there is any direct connection between the recent lack of wage growth and increased 457s?

tail wheel
21st Apr 2017, 20:48
I wonder if there is any direct connection between the recent lack of wage growth and increased 457s?

Where did that fib come from? The 457 Visa was introduced in 1996. Since December 2013 (change from Rudd to Abbott) the number of 457 Visa holders working in Australia declined 13%. More recently, between 2014-15 and 2015-16 the number of applications decreased 1.9%.

Band a Lot
22nd Apr 2017, 01:28
I was of the understanding that airlines in Australia had pay scales as part of approved EBA's.


These pay scales are based on position held, aircraft size and years of service within the company.

Certainly in large companies these are neither flexible or negotiable salary amounts.

I would also love any anti 457 persons to produce any evidence that any person employed by any airline in Australia, is paid less than the EBA stipulates.

chuboy
22nd Apr 2017, 01:45
I wonder if there is any direct connection between the recent lack of wage growth and increased 457s?

There absolutely is, and it's not just 457s but all types of skilled migration including skilled migrants moving to Australia permanently.

How's this for sobering reading, the RBA's wage growth forecasts vs reality for the last few years :sad:

https://i.redd.it/m4xs87hrbzsy.png

LodaGoda
22nd Apr 2017, 01:51
In Medical fields, 457 holders get paid the same contract and payments as Australians. they cover essential parts/areas that Australians can't and don't want to cover.
They are subjected to stringent international standard testing and scrutiny that they even get downgraded initially from their original position (just in case). There are still much needed vacancy in specific medical and nursing specialities in certain areas used to be called (Area of Need).
In other fields, it should have been illegal to be getting paid less than permanent residents or Australians, constitutional point of view.
Also, it is true 457 visa is cancelled but those professionals will get entry under different visa name. There are still in Occupational shortage lists. It might not be as easy to get Citizenship after, which might reduce the incentive to those skilled professional to come over.
(I'm not sure about citizenship pathway to the new visa holders now).

Stationair8
22nd Apr 2017, 22:46
Interesting article in the Weekend AFR about Sydney Seaplanes, and their use of 457 visas to bring in pilots from the US and Canada for seasonal work.

Willie Nelson
22nd Apr 2017, 23:03
For my money these are in fact sensible changes to the system. Where there are indeed legitimate areas of need then employers will be required to demonstrate market testing.

It demonstrates that the government doesn't have a tin ear on wages growth and it happens to protect them against one nation to some degree where people like George Christiansan is polling them neck and neck.

It is a little odd though that Tony Abbott was in fact the one that removed penalties that had previously been put in by Labor to penalise employers that exceeded their approved quota.

Rort fears as 457 visa loophole reopened (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/rort-fears-as-457-visa-loophole-reopened-20140311-34kgr.html)

Why would anyone do that if they in fact though that there should be a quota in the first place. What a waste of oxygen that man was.

Band a Lot
23rd Apr 2017, 02:31
"I wonder if there is any direct connection between the recent lack of wage growth and increased 457s?"


"There absolutely is, and it's not just 457s but all types of skilled migration including skilled migrants moving to Australia permanently."

I doubt there is any connection. When the largest employer sector (small business) has generally been doing it very tough for a good number of years due to things including high Ozzie $, weather events and flow on effects of the GFC. There has been genuinely a lack of money for pay increases for many. More recently the slump in the mining sector took of demand for all types of workers, so competing sectors have not had to increase salaries to retain staff. Then the massive employer our government/s Public Service sector, have not in most cases had pay increases for 3 or more years (why the recent strikes by boarder staff). If the government are not increasing salaries at all then it is not likely the private sector will need to either.

Both the 457 and other skilled migration visas are for listed occupations only - there is no indication that occupations that are not listed or never have been listed, have any higher wage growth rate than any listed one.


Real sustainable wage growth required certain conditions, some of those conditions are controllable by the employer, some controllable by our government/s and some are dictated by international conditions.

Personally I also think the big 2 and the big 4 have also had an impact on wages growth (lack of) as well as the tax practices of the google, apple and Microsoft (and others) use to get money offshore.

sucati
23rd Apr 2017, 03:15
Well in ATC- ASA hires overseas controllers and offers them higher salaries and signup bonuses. If you are an equally/more qualified Australian, your offer is far less.

It is well known in ATC circles that this is the case.

Grossly untrue.
I received no sign up bonus and, with 13 years prior experience, I discovered I am actually on a slightly lower salary than some of my less experienced local counterparts.
I was employed to fill a position that ASA had chronic difficulties filling locally. Both through Ab Initio training, and by experienced controllers from other sectors.

Band a Lot
23rd Apr 2017, 05:24
Grossly untrue.
I received no sign up bonus and, with 13 years prior experience, I discovered I am actually on a slightly lower salary than some of my less experienced local counterparts.
I was employed to fill a position that ASA had chronic difficulties filling locally. Both through Ab Initio training, and by experienced controllers from other sectors.

Can you supply a reason for the "slightly lower salary" is it for a valid reason?


Like they get paid more as they have worked more years for the employer than you (even though you have more years total working than them) or some of your competencies are not recognised here.

The name is Porter
23rd Apr 2017, 07:21
ASA wiil try get them for the lowest possible price, and if I was doing the employing I would too.

There was no need for this staffing crisis in ATC, ASA were warned years and years and years ago that this would happen. Truth is, these jobs should be for Australians only. ASA will not invest the required amount of money to resource a training college capable of supplying the ATC's required.

Oubi
23rd Apr 2017, 16:19
ASA wiil try get them for the lowest possible price, and if I was doing the employing I would too.

There was no need for this staffing crisis in ATC, ASA were warned years and years and years ago that this would happen. Truth is, these jobs should be for Australians only. ASA will not invest the required amount of money to resource a training college capable of supplying the ATC's required.

I think it's the same for almost every ANSP, cutting costs leads to understaffing, and by the time they realize it, you need 3 years to recruit and train fresh recruits (which are not experienced...)

How are they going to solve this crisis if they aren't allowed to hire overseas controllers anymore ?

tail wheel
24th Apr 2017, 00:08
A lot of misinformation here?

A 457 worker must be paid at the rate specified in the Award or EBA, or the same rate of pay as an Australian doing the same job with the same employer, or the average rate of pay for the same job in the same geographical region, which ever is the higher.

A 457 worker must receive the same benefits (annual leave, sick leave, public holidays, Superannuation etc) as specified in industrial legislation, an Award or EBA, as any other Australian worker may be entitled to.

A 457 worker has the same access to the Fair Work Australia, as any other worker, including a right to compensation for unfair dismissal.

Chuboy, many factors distort any relationship between your graph and the influx of 457 workers, including the fact that 457 workers may only be employed in selected ANZSCO (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/Previousproducts/1220.0Search0First%20Edition,%20Revision%201) level 400000 positions and above. Statistically, you can not compare a group of 95,000 workers who are employed exclusively in qualified trades, professional and managerial positions, with the total Australian work force in general where at least 30% are employed in ANZSCO level 500000 positions and below.

With apprentice numbers 40% below the number in training a decade ago, the next few years are going to be interesting. We may well see doctors and lawyers taking up plumbing apprenticeships as they chase even higher incomes........... Our national skills deficit is at crisis level, but the politicians are not interested in serious investment in vocational training.

sucati
24th Apr 2017, 00:41
Can you supply a reason for the "slightly lower salary" is it for a valid reason?


Like they get paid more as they have worked more years for the employer than you (even though you have more years total working than them) or some of your competencies are not recognised here.

Yep you pretty much nailed it there. Simply a case of them having worked for the company longer than I have.
Also my OJTI and Supervisory competencies are not recognised as such.

neville_nobody
24th Apr 2017, 01:01
I highly doubt that you will see people who have just spent 10 years at uni leaving to go to TAFE to be plumbers. Doctors actually have numerous career paths and the AMA ensures that they don't get white anted by being both a pusedo union and regulator.

The issue everywhere else is that nobody wants to be responsible for training. Tradesmen don't want apprentices, Companies like Sydney Harbour Seaplanes mentioned above won't risk junior pilots, you can get all the training you want but if you can't get entry level jobs and have something resembling a career path what's the point?

Aviation has always been a fine example of this, it's just now with the destruction of GA, and the isolation of experience as shown by the AFR article there will be a continual drain of pilots because ultimately people aren't going to waste their money and time.

Band a Lot
24th Apr 2017, 05:03
Yep you pretty much nailed it there. Simply a case of them having worked for the company longer than I have.
Also my OJTI and Supervisory competencies are not recognised as such.



Thanks for the reply, the 457 type visa is needed in Australia (a few have abused it)


But this paid less bit gets to me, as it is not true (in MOST cases).

tail wheel
24th Apr 2017, 05:18
I highly doubt that you will see people who have just spent 10 years at uni leaving to go to TAFE to be plumbers.

Well, it was a little tongue in cheek, but you know what I mean.

There are many applications for the numerous apprentice and trainee vacancies. Sadly many are driven by the requirement to apply for employment positions in order to continue to receive the dole. And it shows in their applications.......

There are continuing high numbers of very good mature age applicants for apprentice positions. Sadly, in the Modern Awards FWA have set the wage for mature age apprentices so high that tradies are reluctant engage with this group.

Band a Lot
24th Apr 2017, 05:38
There are continuing high numbers of very good mature age applicants for apprentice positions. Sadly, in the Modern Awards FWA have set the wage for mature age apprentices so high that tradies are reluctant engage with this group.



Coupled with the getting rid of any that will/can not cut it, after the probation period. With increasing wage cost over 3-3.5 years until end of apprenticeship.

In the new World of 145 employment, apprentices should also be "performance based"

sucati
24th Apr 2017, 07:10
Thanks for the reply, the 457 type visa is needed in Australia (a few have abused it)


But this paid less bit gets to me, as it is not true (in MOST cases).

It is needed. And I'm pretty sure I'm actually the only non permanent resident working in ATC Brisbane ha ha. But luckily the reform doesn't affect me personally as I really love it here :)

Band a Lot
24th Apr 2017, 08:43
It is needed. And I'm pretty sure I'm actually the only non permanent resident working in ATC Brisbane ha ha. But luckily the reform doesn't affect me personally as I really love it here :)



The "other" parts of reform such a citizenship now affect Australians that have foreign partners on the very expensive Partner Visa more. Now they need to be in Australia for up to 7.5 year to apply for citizenship ( all others can apply under new laws at 4 years). That seriously effects our partners travel, work and education aspects of life.

And sadly most are ill informed or care less than to make false statements with zero proof.

Had you personally been underpaid I would have told you how to correct it and or reported it myself.

But after many accusations of "underpaid" aviation staff on 457 visa's never has a slice of proof been supplied and I have repeatedly asked.

cattletruck
24th Apr 2017, 09:03
Most 457 Visa holders send as much of their income home as possible. Most of them like Australia so long as it provides them with a better wage and work benefits than what they can get back home, which is often the case.

Money sent overseas means less money for investing in local training.

There is a similar "scam" operating within the education industry where the Australian government offers grants/incentives to education institutions for bringing in overseas students.

Our own politicians are just stupid.

pilotchute
24th Apr 2017, 09:11
Tail wheel,

It is very easy to change job descriptions and responsibilities. The persons on the visa rarely complain. I have seen parachute tandem masters who got a visa by being classed as "soccer coaches". There was a European helicopter pilot in Alice Springs (he had a bare CPL) who's visa said "tour guide".

There is nowhere near enough people to police the system. Please don't think that the "rules" stop the system being abused.

Band a Lot
24th Apr 2017, 10:25
Most 457 Visa holders send as much of their income home as possible. Most of them like Australia so long as it provides them with a better wage and work benefits than what they can get back home, which is often the case.


I will call you out on this!

Most 457 are from India or surrounding countries and yes it is "customary to look after family" by sending some money (a lot in local money for them).

But I can guarantee you from what I see the goal is to get PR (permanent residence) followed by Citizenship and get family members to Australia not send money back "home".


Most of these are not in aviation but in IT and Medical and many actually studied in Australia for many years at a massive cost to their parents.


*** Now I am happy to talk exact fact and figures on this subject if you are willing to listen and "understand".

cattletruck
24th Apr 2017, 10:55
and get family members to Australia

...and then claim welfare, just like my new neighbour who's been on it for 4 years so far.

As I said before, our politicians are just stupid.

Band a Lot
24th Apr 2017, 14:00
...and then claim welfare, just like my new neighbour who's been on it for 4 years so far.

As I said before, our politicians are just stupid.


You happy to make this a conversation? I am as you/r statements are wrong.

CurtainTwitcher
24th Apr 2017, 20:08
Senate Committee: An inquiry into the impact of Australia’s temporary work visa programs on the Australian labour market and on the temporary work visa holders.

Report: A National Disgrace: The Exploitation of Temporary Work Visa Holders Report 17 March 2016: report direct link (http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Senate/Education_and_Employment/temporary_work_visa/~/media/Committees/eet_ctte/temporary_work_visa/report/report.pdf) [.pdf]

Inquiry landing page (http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Senate/Education_and_Employment/temporary_work_visa/Report) with more information about the committee, terms of reference, submission etc.

Kiwiconehead
24th Apr 2017, 21:09
But I can guarantee you from what I see the goal is to get PR (permanent residence) followed by Citizenship and get family members to Australia

And this is the bit that confuses me. Wife and kids can come on 457, but how the hell do they then get all their brothers and sisters out here?

Band a lot, you and I have been around the immigration process in depth (and spoken on other forums) and I have never seen a visa which allows you to import your siblings.

Band a Lot
25th Apr 2017, 06:35
I flew into Cairns about 6 months back the taxi driver was an Indian on a 457 visa, the taxi was owned by his brother in law. 457's then lead to permanent visa.

They could then say get a brother here on a Student Visa to study medicine, then a Temporary Graduate Visa to work as a Doctor, then bring out his wife and 5 kids as dependants.


Doctor happened to be on skills shortage list:-


So Doctor now can apply 457 or 189 both lead to Permanent residence, his family are already here so no Partner visa fee of $7,000 for her.

All funded by a taxi!

But correct there is no sibling visa as such.

This from the other forum:-


Step by step family visa guidance required please
Hi everyone,
Currently I am on 485 temporary graduate visa in Australia. Now I want to bring my family residing overseas (my wife & two kids). For that I need step by step guidance and documentation required.
Any help in this regard will be highly appreciated.

Thank you

cattletruck
25th Apr 2017, 09:15
Indian national gets $114,000 of fines dropped.
https://tenplay.com.au/news/national/april-2017/Motorist%20has%20more%20than%20100000%20in%20road%20fines%20 forgiven

I hate the privilege of paying tolls for using private roads too, but I'm not as lucky because unfortunately my mistake is I can comprehend Australian laws.

As I said before, our politicians are just stupid.

Band a Lot
25th Apr 2017, 09:55
The court heard Mr Vasishth arrived as a student, but was now married to an Australian woman with whom he has a child.

$10 says this Australian woman legally fits the criteria to be called such, and has a very Indian background that is not required to be mentioned.

Band a Lot
25th Apr 2017, 13:37
And as a Purple Cone Head. You know, I know a bit more than average Joe about migration to/in Australia.

tail wheel
25th Apr 2017, 21:23
Talk or rorting the system applies to an absolute minimum of employers and workers. Are the Government going to stop all driving because a small percentage speed or drive inebriated?

Some years ago a senior Immigration official told me the 457 Visa system was being seriously rorted. He claimed (from memory) 1.7% of employers were investigated and just under 1% were prosecuted or faced administrative action.

If we assume a whopping 5% of 457 Visa holders are rorting our system and should be repatriated, that currently leaves 90,000 trade and professionally qualified workers employed in their trade or profession, productively working in Australia, for Australians.

The latest changes to the skilled temporary worker system are intended to significantly reduce (and presumably eliminate) that number of productive workers and increase Government income from a raft of Visa and other fees.

I suspect it will be impossible now or even over the next decade, to find an additional 90,000 Australian professional and trade qualified and experienced workers, in addition to supplying the additional numbers required to meet increased labour market demands.

Apprentice numbers are down 40% in a decade. Entry to essential professional qualifications at University (doctors, nurses etc) are also significantly down.

Changes to the skilled temporary worker visa system was solely a short sighted political decision to appease the Unions and the left and center left voters.

Our national skills deficit will get worse, impacting building, manufacturing, health and other services and further erode our value added/manufactured exports. Expect to pay far more for trade and professional services unless the National and State Governments invest far, far more into promoting and providing quality vocational training at a cost all Australians can afford.

Kiwiconehead
25th Apr 2017, 22:05
And as a Purple Cone Head. You know, I know a bit more than average Joe about migration to/in Australia.

That is for sure, the dept must quiver in fear when they see your number on the caller id

Kelly Slater
25th Apr 2017, 23:07
If apprentice numbers are down 40% in a decade, this would be because apprenticeships are not available in the numbers they were previously. I doubt there is a vacancy offered for an apprentice that is not filled. The reasons for the decline in apprenticeships available is something that obviously needs drastic attention. I'm pretty sure that any more university places made available for future professionals to study would also be quickly filled although the course requirements and costs might need tweaking.
Our national skills deficit gets worse because we do not do enough to train the young up and comers who are already here but instead take the short term fix and import workers. Skilled migration should be used to fill unexpected shortcomings, not as the norm. We had a mining boom and the level of tradesmen, engineers and the like could not reasonably have been foreseen so we sought skilled migrants. At the same time, we should have seen a huge ramp up of training of Australian youth. These newly skilled people should now be in our workforce and so the need for skilled migration should be almost zero in the current economic climate but is it?

pilotchute
26th Apr 2017, 00:00
The one killer of apprenticeships in my view is the "repair by replacement" mentally that the western world has adopted. Once upon a time your mechanic/electrician would remove a defective part and repair it. Supervisor would check it and it would be re installed. Now the defective part is sent to a reconditioning service and then returned. The mechance doesn't know how to do anything other than undo and do up bolts.

Band a Lot
26th Apr 2017, 00:29
Aircraft Worker 1 is an employee who isundertaking up to 38 hours induction training.
$672.70 + supa
$692.10 after 3 months
Most apprentices now are adult or months away, from that after year 12.
Min starting pay $626.64 + supa and from memory the trade school wanted them for 13 weeks a year.

So why pay 13 weeks ($8,146.32) over a year, when if you pay $65.46 a week extra ($3,403.92 a year) you get 13 weeks extra labour?

By the bureaucrats this (an apprentice term 4 years), the house has bolted.

It then takes government incentives to start the cycle all over again, but to fill the gap we need 457 type workers.

They will come for 2 reasons LOT's $$$ for a shortish term
or
A reasonably affordable salary with the option to stay permanently with their family.

The people that think we can turn on and off our requirement to fill our self made skills shortages are dreaming because we don't pay large expatriate wages.

** Kelly the problem with your mining boom training ramp up is that bubble burst about 2 years ago, so in 2 years time the newly trained will be released into an already depressed market.

andrewr
26th Apr 2017, 03:16
Not quite sure what you're saying here - if you pay not much more than apprentice wages you can get an extra 13 weeks work, but no-one is prepared to take the job?

This is the main rort with 457 visas (and H1B in the USA) - advertise the job at a pay rate where you don't get any applicants, then import someone who will work for the lower rate.

Related is the problem where no business is prepared to train someone. Apprentices are not supposed to be cheap labour, they are an investment in the future of your company, or at least your industry.

By far the highest users of 457 visas is the IT industry, where this is very common. An unwillingness to train, and an unwillingness to pay reasonable rates mean there are a lot of people looking for work while people are brought in on 457 visas.

Band a Lot
26th Apr 2017, 04:13
From a financial point of view it is not worth putting on an apprentice (most leave at end of term or soon after - so rarely an investment in your company).

The first few years they certainly are not worth that amount in most cases, so they are put on as an aircraft worker (not apprentice) for a slightly higher rate but work 13 weeks more.

While an Australian company can have say a LAME employed at $120,000 they can advertise for another at the award rate of around $52,000. It is not likely they will get any takers.

But they can not get in a guy on a 457 and pay him $52,000 - the 457 must get the same as the other LAME being $120,000.

That assumes they have the same licence.

tail wheel
27th Apr 2017, 03:52
'Grind to a halt': Tech industry sounds alarm over 457 visa changes (http://www.smh.com.au/business/grind-to-a-halt-tech-industry-sounds-alarm-over-457-visa-changes-20170418-gvng9a.html?eid=socialn%3Afac-16omntEN0118-eng-FB-02062016-Engagement-nnn-nnn-nnn-SMH-nnn&campaign_code=Engagement&promote_channel=SMH_A_SM_FB_GE)

pilotchute
27th Apr 2017, 06:52
So US tech companies are complaining of a skills shortage and say Trumps immigration reforms will stifle the tech industry in the USA. On the other hand we take "skilled" US citizens on 457 visas to work in the tech industry in Australia?

Britain is also claiming a IT skills shortage yet we manage to poach them too?

mattyj
27th Apr 2017, 10:17
Stop mentioning the Chinese massage parlors will you!? They're much cheaper than another marriage, another divorce settlement, and another house I bought in the northern suburbs I'm not allowed within 200 meters of

Dark Knight
28th Apr 2017, 02:58
Quoting the Boeing Aircraft Company:
“As global economies expand and airlines take delivery of tens of thousands of new commercial jetliners over the next 20 years, there is extraordinary demand for people to fly and maintain these airplanes. To meet this tremendous growth, the 2016 Boeing Pilot and Technician Outlook forecasts that between now and 2035, the aviation industry will need to supply more than two million new aviation personnel—617,000 commercial airline pilots, 679,000 maintenance technicians, and 814,000 cabin crew”

Where are the Australian aviation industry training programs to produce the personnel necessary to fill these positions?

Both here and to compete within the Global Economy?

flyhardmo
28th Apr 2017, 03:53
Where are the Australian aviation industry training programs to produce the personnel necessary to fill these positions?

Pay them and they will come.

Rui Dias
29th Apr 2017, 12:13
What is the real impact of the 457 visa in the aviation industry in Australia? If the trend of getting rid of expats expands and many Aussies have to return home, there will be any room for them? That wouldn't create a bigger hurdle for those wanting to climb the ladder?

Cheers

pilotchute
30th Apr 2017, 04:33
Who is getting rid of expats other than India? There would be less than 20 Aussie Capts in India anyway.

Emirates, Qatar, Korean and a host of other airlines are hiring expats like crazy. If you already have jet time of course.

Rui Dias
30th Apr 2017, 11:17
Who is getting rid of expats other than India? There would be less than 20 Aussie Capts in India anyway.

Emirates, Qatar, Korean and a host of other airlines are hiring expats like crazy. If you already have jet time of course.

Apparently Vietnam Airlines as well. And the Americans First policy might have the same effects in the future.

pilotchute
30th Apr 2017, 22:54
Lead story on news.com.au right now is about a very gifted IT guy who worked in the US on big projects but can't seem to get a job at home. He's young, super qualified but seems to be left out because Australian tech companies want "3 years experience" for whatever it is they are hiring for.

Just another example of stingy Australian employers unwilling to train people.