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View Full Version : PR preparation for the Borghetti replacement underway


Stuart Midgley
16th Apr 2017, 22:08
This in the SMH this morning:

John Thomas helped save the US airline industry. Can he steady Virgin Australia? (http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/john-thomas-helped-save-the-us-airline-industry-can-he-steady-virgin-australia-20170414-gvl01r.html)

Soft-story PR drop on a public-holiday Monday, 'introducing' the new man to the public I guess? Certainly not the sort of self-promoting story a cautious number 2 would ever allow to be published - unless the number 1 spot was already locked up.

CurtainTwitcher
16th Apr 2017, 22:30
The last 3 lines of the article...
If Thomas does have eyes for the top job, he's not giving anything away.

"I've got my hands full at the moment and I'm having a lot of fun at the moment," he says. "Lets keep it at that."

The reporter travelled to Los Angeles with John Thomas as a guest of Virgin Australia

AerialPerspective
17th Apr 2017, 00:34
Can't come quick enough... the place is a sheltered workshop... a haven for the incompetent and near-do-well, with the decent people and those who know what they're doing being the ones with bruised heads from banging them against the wall.

The Bullwinkle
17th Apr 2017, 10:38
I just hope it's not too late!
A once great place to work is now a pale shadow of its former self.
He's going to have a heck of a time undoing the damage that's been done!

porch monkey
17th Apr 2017, 12:56
How do any of you know he isn't one of the same?

Boe787
17th Apr 2017, 22:41
Yes indeed quite possibly more of the same!

Given the appalling standards of the US domestic Airline industry, I dont see how this golden boy who cut his teeth in the US industry, will improve things at Virgin, particularly for the staff!
US airlines have some of the lowest paid staff in Aviation!

It's interesting to note he is credited with saving the US industry, by for one charging for passengers checked in baggage!
And yet the only US Airline to have always been profitable, Southwest, doesn't charge for checked baggage?
Low fuel prices and the big three mergers over there have had a lot to do with the recent improvement in US carriers fortunes!

Keg
17th Apr 2017, 22:52
At QF, after Dixon finished up in 2007/8 (?) Joyce proved the old adage of 'out of the frying pan, into the fire'. I hope VOZ can avoid proving that yet again.

No Idea Either
17th Apr 2017, 22:58
I think the claim that paying for bagagge, as introduced by JT, saved the US airline industry is a bit of a stretch, and hence the 'messiah' label is most likely a bit of a stretch too. He's been here a while now and actions speak louder than words. Haven't seen much action! Although at least he does communicate more than the phantom Borghetti, albeit the Comms are the usual PR/HR propaganda.

porch monkey
18th Apr 2017, 00:06
No idea got it in one. Actions, not words. We don't need another messiah. We'll be paying for the last one for years yet. Just get on and do shit, that's all......:\

The name is Porter
18th Apr 2017, 00:33
Given the appalling standards of the US domestic Airline industry, I don't see how this golden boy who cut his teeth in the US industry, will improve things at Virgin, particularly for the staff!

Appalling? Really? You haven't flown there have you?

US airlines have some of the lowest paid staff in Aviation!

There are also staff there that are on a [email protected]#^ton more than you will ever earn ;)

Berealgetreal
18th Apr 2017, 01:02
US airlines have some of the lowest paid staff in Aviation!
There have been some changes. Its was the case a few years ago.

Have a look at the LCC B737 operator called South West. While you are doing that look up what a house costs over there and what the average worker gets paid.

Let the new guy (if he is the one) have a go. Whilst its easy to paint them all with the same brush the only way forward is to have an open mind to new ideas/enthusiasm whilst keeping lessons from the past in the back pocket.

dr dre
18th Apr 2017, 02:08
Appalling? Really? You haven't flown there have you?


I have flown on several US airlines. Appalling would be a complement.
We can argue about the standards of airlines here in Australia but our saving grace is that we haven't reached the pathetic US level of customer service yet. Out airlines aren't getting the cops to drag bloodied people off overbooked planes. If anything it's JB who needs to hired in the US to teach them a lesson.

AerialPerspective
18th Apr 2017, 03:05
I have flown on several US airlines. Appalling would be a complement.
We can argue about the standards of airlines here in Australia but our saving grace is that we haven't reached the pathetic US level of customer service yet. Out airlines aren't getting the cops to drag bloodied people off overbooked planes. If anything it's JB who needs to hired in the US to teach them a lesson.
When the country has airline pilots claiming food stamps there is something seriously wrong, while the CEOs claim million dollar bonuses. Although, I will say, prior to it going into Chapter 11 for the first time ever, AA's CEO Gerard Arpy I believe, was on about a third of what GD was being paid here in Austrailia.
The only US carrier I've flown on was Southwest and they were fine for what I paid... Oh, I forgot and PSA in 1974 and they were fantastic for the era until deregulation and they got gobbled up by US.
The more troubling thing lately is this Parliamentary Inquiry where some **** is talking about allowing cabotage to all international operators. Seriously, the worst most moronic idea I've heard... even the bastion of unbridled capitalism the USA restricts entry to its domestic aviation market. But, leave it to us to be stupid enough to allow anyone to fly here domestically without a CASA issued AOC.

Boe787
18th Apr 2017, 03:27
Porter, I fly within USA at least 2 times per year, and with the exception of Virgin America, Jet Blue and Souhtwest, for the rest, as another poster commented, maybe appalling is a complement!
However it's not just the Airlines, the whole thing is a nightmare most of the tine, old over crowded terminals, huge ques at security, and then with the big 3, you can get to fly on some very old aeroplanes as well!
So my point is just because this guy did well in America, that in my opinion is nothing to get excited about for Virgin Australia staff!
I have enjoyed my flights with Virgin, and wish the staff well!

Red Jet
18th Apr 2017, 05:14
I have flown on several US airlines. Appalling would be a complement.
We can argue about the standards of airlines here in Australia but our saving grace is that we haven't reached the pathetic US level of customer service yet. Out airlines aren't getting the cops to drag bloodied people off overbooked planes. If anything it's JB who needs to hired in the US to teach them a lesson.
Mate - that last comment of yours has to be in the running for the most unqualified, ignorant comment placed on a public forum I have seen in a long time.
First of all - if it was indicative of the current standard in customer service in the USA, it wouldn't have attracted the headlines and hype that it did.

Second - this was a case of a passenger disobeying a lawful instruction from aircrew after boarding, and the dude is no hero! This wasn't a tank bearing down on him at Tiananmen Square, he stubbornly refused to do as he was instructed and hence law enforcement officers were called in to physically remove him from the aircraft:= In a sane world populated by rational human beings he would be vilified and paraded before the courts, but in our Social Media driven discourse, he is held up as a victim:ugh: Sadly the CEO of United was to gutless to stand up and defend his crew, and instead rolled over in a pathetic attempt to appease "public opinion". He should be ashamed of himself.

There - rant over:}

Berealgetreal
18th Apr 2017, 05:14
US airlines have some of the lowest paid staff in Aviation!
I think the point was about conditions at US airlines.

Yet again the forum seems to be morphing into a passenger rumour network.

wondrousbitofrough
18th Apr 2017, 05:29
Out airlines

Thought this thread was about Virgin, not Qantas:E

The name is Porter
18th Apr 2017, 06:01
I have flown on several US airlines. Appalling would be a complement

Then you are travelling with the wrong airlines. I've flown with heaps of them and haven't had an issue. Example: I've been using onboard wifi for the last 6 years, something it's deemed far too hard to achieve on an Australian airline. Then again, if you want to be treated like a Prince/Princess, then you'll be disappointed.

Porter, I fly within USA at least 2 times per year, and with the exception of Virgin America, Jet Blue and Souhtwest, for the rest, as another poster commented, maybe appalling is a complement!

As above. Typical of the attitude in Australia that everything's done better here. The Yanks know aviation, they don't thieve off you in the carpark, they don't rip you off for a cuppa or a beer, the free wifi is at least 5 times faster than the garbage you'll get here. The only complaint I have is the battle for overhead locker space :eek:

Flying in the States is a far better experience than the thievery practiced here.

Mate - that last comment of yours has to be in the running for the most unqualified, ignorant comment placed on a public forum I have seen in a long time.
First of all - if it was indicative of the current standard in customer service in the USA, it wouldn't have attracted the headlines and hype that it did.

Second - this was a case of a passenger disobeying a lawful instruction from aircrew after boarding, and the dude is no hero! This wasn't a tank bearing down on him at Tiananmen Square, he stubbornly refused to do as he was instructed and hence law enforcement officers were called in to physically remove him from the aircraft In a sane world populated by rational human beings he would be vilified and paraded before the courts, but in our Social Media driven discourse, he is held up as a victim Sadly the CEO of United was to gutless to stand up and defend his crew, and instead rolled over in a pathetic attempt to appease "public opinion". He should be ashamed of himself.

Totally agree

Berealgetreal
18th Apr 2017, 07:19
The only complaint I have is the battle for overhead locker space

https://www.wired.com/2015/04/boeings-making-overhead-bins-50-percent-bigger/

That will change in the US for the max operators that choose it.

rob_ginger
18th Apr 2017, 10:08
Second - this was a case of a passenger disobeying a lawful instruction from aircrew after boarding

If you had been reading the thread on the UA incident you would know that the instruction from the aircrew was NOT lawful in this case. The passenger was also wrong to resist when dragged off the flight. But two wrongs don't make a right.

havick
18th Apr 2017, 17:30
Quote:
The only complaint I have is the battle for overhead locker space

Airside valet bags are free in the US.

Bula
18th Apr 2017, 22:00
Prove it was unlawful....

Sunfish
18th Apr 2017, 22:43
I paid business class on my last flights in the U.S. and it made no difference. U.S. carriers (with the exception of PSW) were absolutely pathetic. Then add to that crappy terminals. and the TSA Gestapo. Then there is customs and immigration, which isn't any better.

I used American airlines and travelled in the U.S, for twenty five years from one end of the country to the other and I won't be going back because of the current American worldview that all air travellers are either criminals or potential terrorists. The stories of excessive use of force, intimidation, rotten reliability of service, abuse and outright theft are legion. Just ask Mem Fox what happened to her a few months ago. I've seen people abused myself and also copped some from an airport cop for changing queues at check in.

As for Red Jets comment:

Second - this was a case of a passenger disobeying a lawful instruction from aircrew after boarding, and the dude is no hero! This wasn't a tank bearing down on him at Tiananmen Square, he stubbornly refused to do as he was instructed and hence law enforcement officers were called in to physically remove him from the aircraft In a sane world populated by rational human beings he would be vilified and paraded before the courts, but in our Social Media driven discourse, he is held up as a victim Sadly the CEO of United was to gutless to stand up and defend his crew, and instead rolled over in a pathetic attempt to appease "public opinion". He should be ashamed of himself.


How is it possible that United even allowed more passengers on to an aircraft than there were available seats? Then "Red Jet" demonstrates the customer service attitude that has now made United airlines famous: - the customer is just a serf who should kowtow to the captain of the aircraft over a commercial matter that has nothing to do with the captain at all. United ground staff made a simply massive mistake and then compounded it by involving law enforcement, which seem s to be the only American response to problems these days.

To put that another way, the passenger removed was very lucky he wasn't shot and killed.

AerialPerspective
18th Apr 2017, 22:58
Yes indeed quite possibly more of the same!

Given the appalling standards of the US domestic Airline industry, I dont see how this golden boy who cut his teeth in the US industry, will improve things at Virgin, particularly for the staff!
US airlines have some of the lowest paid staff in Aviation!

It's interesting to note he is credited with saving the US industry, by for one charging for passengers checked in baggage!
And yet the only US Airline to have always been profitable, Southwest, doesn't charge for checked baggage?
Low fuel prices and the big three mergers over there have had a lot to do with the recent improvement in US carriers fortunes!
It's easy to determine... if he displays very little knowledge of the industry but works 'reaching out', 'going forward', talk about stuff and 'what that looks like', refers to the domestic airline game as the 'domestic aviation SPACE', ends everything with 'outcomes' and describes every outcome in terms of its 'impact' on 'the business' and can't speak an English language sentence without any of these weasel words then he IS more of the same.

I seriously don't get how management types don't see how unfathomably stupid they sound spouting this weasel word rubbish. Can't help themselves, have to work it into every release, every sentence and every conversation... cannot get up in the morning without 'going forward and shared values'.

It's all total piffle as the refreshingly sane Don Watson aptly describes it.

He started by thanking a gathering at Readings a few years ago to launch his latest book by saying "I know how hard it is for you to attend tonight, it's like asking Salmon to stop swimming upstream because I know you're all busy 'going forward' and it's hard to stop. I don't know how the human race survived for all these millennia, presumably we just all milled around for thousands of years without 'going forward' all the time.

AerialPerspective
18th Apr 2017, 23:02
I paid business class on my last flights in the U.S. and it made no difference. U.S. carriers (with the exception of PSW) were absolutely pathetic. Then add to that crappy terminals. and the TSA Gestapo. Then there is customs and immigration, which isn't any better.

I used American airlines and travelled in the U.S, for twenty five years from one end of the country to the other and I won't be going back because of the current American worldview that all air travellers are either criminals or potential terrorists. The stories of excessive use of force, intimidation, rotten reliability of service, abuse and outright theft are legion. Just ask Mem Fox what happened to her a few months ago. I've seen people abused myself and also copped some from an airport cop for changing queues at check in.

As for Red Jets comment:



How is it possible that United even allowed more passengers on to an aircraft than there were available seats? Then "Red Jet" demonstrates the customer service attitude that has now made United airlines famous: - the customer is just a serf who should kowtow to the captain of the aircraft over a commercial matter that has nothing to do with the captain at all. United ground staff made a simply massive mistake and then compounded it by involving law enforcement, which seem s to be the only American response to problems these days.

To put that another way, the passenger removed was very lucky he wasn't shot and killed.
They didn't. They filled the aircraft then decided they wanted 4 of those seats for crew. They didn't follow their own rules which say when someone refuses, you increase the offered compensation to a point where they accept... let's face it, by putting those crew on board, they were perhaps saving hundreds or at least tens of thousands in delay and accommodation costs so what's one or two thousand dollars to entice a pax to give up their seat. What they did instead was typical heavy handed American solution to everything. All I can say is I wish it had happened to me because I'd quite like to retire.

parabellum
18th Apr 2017, 23:34
Second - this was a case of a passenger disobeying a lawful instruction from aircrew after boarding

We need go no further, the instruction came from the ground staff, not aircrew, who should have known that attempting to offload a well behaved passenger who has been accepted for the flight, issued a boarding pass and has boarded the aircraft, simply because you want his seat to accommodate a positioning crew, is not a lawful instruction from anybody, it is a request which the Doctor declined. The problem is an internal one for the airline to solve. Quite why a member of the positioning crew wasn't told, for 45 a minute flight, "It is the jump seat or nothing, exigencies of the company override" I doubt we will ever know.

In all probability the lawyers for the Doctor won't even bother themselves with the niceties of ticketing, boarding, offloading etc. they have all they need to pursue GBH, serious injury, humiliation, loss of earnings etc. a video, a hospital report and the statement of the CEO UAL.

itsnotthatbloodyhard
18th Apr 2017, 23:58
Quite why a member of the positioning crew wasn't told, for 45 a minute flight, "It is the jump seat or nothing, exigencies of the company override" I doubt we will ever know.

Probably because, like it or not, a certain minimum standard of seating for duty travel is usually a contractual requirement. Given the choice of the jump seat or nothing, the crew member concerned would most likely have been entitled to say 'nothing'.

Trevorof
19th Apr 2017, 02:27
I read the newspaper article and laughed that JB had turned it into a full service airline.

A tiny bag of pretzels instead of a QF muffin or sandwich, and on what would be a meal time flight on QF still pretzels?
I came back in February from DPS as the only available flight to get out was with Virgin. An hour in the French couple behind requested blanket and pillow. Of course they were told none on board or available. Their response was an incredulous "none"! Even J* carries limited stock for sale.

Perhaps full service in Business class but definitely budget in the back

parabellum
19th Apr 2017, 02:56
Probably because, like it or not, a certain minimum standard of seating for duty travel is usually a contractual requirement. Given the choice of the jump seat or nothing, the crew member concerned would most likely have been entitled to say 'nothing'.

Fair enough. Have worked for three majors and given the circumstances of the flight in question, refusing the jump seat would have been classified as, "Neglecting the best interests of the company", a possible sacking offence in all three cases.

Icarus2001
19th Apr 2017, 03:10
they have all they need to pursue GBH, serious injury, humiliation, loss of earnings etc. a video, a hospital report and the statement of the CEO UAL.

All of which is on the two "police" or security agents.

Had he got out of his seat and exited the aircraft as asked and as the other three passengers did then none of that would have occured.

Self inflicted.

The Bullwinkle
19th Apr 2017, 05:40
Fair enough. Have worked for three majors and given the circumstances of the flight in question, refusing the jump seat would have been classified as, "Neglecting the best interests of the company", a possible sacking offence in all three cases.

This raises two points, certainly as far as Australian airlines go:-

Firstly, if I'm required to pax in order to commence a duty, I'll insist on a seat in the cabin as I have a responsibility to ensure that I'm in a fit and proper condition to operate the following flight or series of flights.

Secondly, ground crew can't just demand that anybody can ride in the jump seat.
Only the Captain can decide if anybody is going to ride in the jump seat and it should never be assumed that the seat will always be available.
There are several reasons why having somebody in the jump seat would be inappropriate.

A stuff up by the ground crew does not constitute an emergency for the flight crew!

parabellum
19th Apr 2017, 05:44
All of which is on the person who instigated the physical stuff, (UA Staff) by calling for security and then trickles down to the Airport Security thug who did the manhandling.

Icarus - If someone tells you to do something that is in all respects intrinsically wrong do you go ahead and do it? No, thought not. Self inflicted? Nonsense.

The Bullwinkle - Yes, I realise only the captain can release the jump seat and would have expected the ground staff to have cleared this first, for a 45 minute flight I would expect the same company crew to cooperate, as mentioned, acting in the best interests of the company.

C441
19th Apr 2017, 07:37
Quite why a member of the positioning crew wasn't told, for 45 a minute flight, "It is the jump seat or nothing, exigencies of the company override" I doubt we will ever know.

Was a jumpseat/s available?

You're assuming the jumpseat/s wasn't already being used.

coaldemon
19th Apr 2017, 07:52
Wow now that is thread drift. Although talking to a few of the VA boys they think that may be the approach taken if they were indeed found in J Class.

AerialPerspective
19th Apr 2017, 08:21
Wow now that is thread drift. Although talking to a few of the VA boys they think that may be the approach taken if they were indeed found in J Class.
Oh please, don't talk about the war... that dumb policy whereby a crew member can't sit there even if it's the only seat left and they aren't in uniform and to move people around will cause a delay but the CEO won't travel anywhere else... pathetic... If I'm a customer I want my Pilot(s) to have the most comfortable and least fatigue inducing seat possible if I'm on the next aeroplane they're flying... I don't however give two you know whats whether their CEO is tired or not or whether his 'prestige' is affected or he doesn't want to get what looks like expensive Italian suits crumpled... a complete case of someone creating a rule which many may consider understandable if it applied to everyone but then making an exception for oneself is just a joke... and likely the other 'top' execs only get it as well because if they didn't they wouldn't have left their previous employer. This to me from the outside seems to be indicative of the skewed priorities and lack of operational focus at that company... where the CEOs comfort is more important than avoidance of crew fatigue or am I being too harsh???

The Bullwinkle
19th Apr 2017, 10:56
Oh please, don't talk about the war... that dumb policy whereby a crew member can't sit there even if it's the only seat left and they aren't in uniform and to move people around will cause a delay but the CEO won't travel anywhere else... pathetic... If I'm a customer I want my Pilot(s) to have the most comfortable and least fatigue inducing seat possible if I'm on the next aeroplane they're flying... I don't however give two you know whats whether their CEO is tired or not or whether his 'prestige' is affected or he doesn't want to get what looks like expensive Italian suits crumpled... a complete case of someone creating a rule which many may consider understandable if it applied to everyone but then making an exception for oneself is just a joke... and likely the other 'top' execs only get it as well because if they didn't they wouldn't have left their previous employer. This to me from the outside seems to be indicative of the skewed priorities and lack of operational focus at that company... where the CEOs comfort is more important than avoidance of crew fatigue or am I being too harsh???

You nailed it! :ok:

Red Jet
19th Apr 2017, 11:09
How is it possible that United even allowed more passengers on to an aircraft than there were available seats? Then "Red Jet" demonstrates the customer service attitude that has now made United airlines famous: - the customer is just a serf who should kowtow to the captain of the aircraft over a commercial matter that has nothing to do with the captain at all. United ground staff made a simply massive mistake and then compounded it by involving law enforcement, which seem s to be the only American response to problems these days.

To put that another way, the passenger removed was very lucky he wasn't shot and killed. Look - I am in no way defending the lack-lustre customer service in the US or their trigger happy gun culture. My point is simply this - they (United) stuffed up and boarded a full airplane and then realised they HAD to position 4 crew on the flight in question. It was extremely poorly handled by United without a doubt, but there was obviously a prelude to the viral videos that those of us who weren't on the plane are not privy to, and after 4 volunteers were sought and they had found no takers at $800 dollars per seat, the only reasonable way to proceed should have been to keep upping the bid until they found someone. The fact that they didn't is a major stuff-up and worthy of all the critique coming their way.

What isn't cool - is that once they had crossed the Rubicon and decided to RANDOMLY pick 4 guests, who were then INSTRUCTED to disembark the aircraft, the only option available to you is to comply with this instruction! As per aviation law, if the instruction came from aircrew, and by civil law if it was issued by the law enforcement officer. The customer in question refused to comply with the instruction and 3 customers (while most probably fuming under the collar) grabbed their hand luggage and left, while the good Doctor elected not to do it, and was physically fighting a lawful ejection from the aircraft.

Think this through guys - if an airline had to rescind the option of involuntarily disembarking a passenger after boarding, it would become completely unworkable and it would descend into anarchy. There are a number of reasons why this could become necessary, including Weight & Balance issues, performance issues, computer glitches where 2 boarding passes with the same seat number has been printed out (has happened to me personally more than once) and of course - upon reversal to manual procedures the chances of this occurring increases. There could be problems discovered with travel document deficiencies, Trump could throw a tantrum and issue a decree banning persons holding a passport of a particular color, etc.

So, if it ever happens that a person in uniform addresses you onboard an aircraft and says: "Sir (or Madam), you will need to get your hand luggage and follow me!" you just bloody well do it, however pissed off you are! There is no other option open to you, but then afterwards - by all means go on social media and pour as much bile as you like onto the airline for their shitty customer service, - but you HAVE to do what you are told. An instruction to collect your hand luggage and disembark the aircraft is a lawful instruction - there can be no doubt about that in my opinion (needless to say - I'm only expressing MY opinion and you are free to hold a contrary one). Just know this - if I instruct you to disembark an airplane on which I am crew and you fail to comply, I will also call in law enforcement if available, otherwise I will handcuff you, and contain you until such assistance can be found. The passengers were not asked to get up and undress or dance a polka! There was nothing frivolous about it and as pissed off as the Doctor would have felt - if they had "abandoned" the attempt to get the Doctor off BECAUSE he refused, and then picked someone else - imagine the downfall of that! There is a ranking order onboard an airplane for a very good reason, the instruction issued was entirely reasonable and under the circumstances were deemed necessary by the airline and the ensuing law enforcement officer. It's in the fine print on any IATA carriers ticketing conditions (carriage is not assured even if boarding pass has been issued and the plane has been boarded, or words to that effect).

Planemike
19th Apr 2017, 11:48
There is no other option open to you, but then afterwards - by all means go on social media and pour as much bile as you like onto the airline for their shitty customer service, - but you HAVE to do what you are told.Errrr..... Why? If you are not misbehaving and have a valid boarding card, just stay where you are.

the instruction issued was entirely reasonable and under the circumstances were deemed necessary by the airline and the ensuing law enforcement officer. t).[/QUOTE]

Tough luck on the airline, they have to make alternative arrangements to move their personnel......

I just amazes me that there are people out there who think it acceptable to throw passengers off aircraft because it suits the airline.....

AerialPerspective
19th Apr 2017, 12:35
Look - I am in no way defending the lack-lustre customer service in the US or their trigger happy gun culture. My point is simply this - they (United) stuffed up and boarded a full airplane and then realised they HAD to position 4 crew on the flight in question. It was extremely poorly handled by United without a doubt, but there was obviously a prelude to the viral videos that those of us who weren't on the plane are not privy to, and after 4 volunteers were sought and they had found no takers at $800 dollars per seat, the only reasonable way to proceed should have been to keep upping the bid until they found someone. The fact that they didn't is a major stuff-up and worthy of all the critique coming their way.

What isn't cool - is that once they had crossed the Rubicon and decided to RANDOMLY pick 4 guests, who were then INSTRUCTED to disembark the aircraft, the only option available to you is to comply with this instruction! As per aviation law, if the instruction came from aircrew, and by civil law if it was issued by the law enforcement officer. The customer in question refused to comply with the instruction and 3 customers (while most probably fuming under the collar) grabbed their hand luggage and left, while the good Doctor elected not to do it, and was physically fighting a lawful ejection from the aircraft.

Think this through guys - if an airline had to rescind the option of involuntarily disembarking a passenger after boarding, it would become completely unworkable and it would descend into anarchy. There are a number of reasons why this could become necessary, including Weight & Balance issues, performance issues, computer glitches where 2 boarding passes with the same seat number has been printed out (has happened to me personally more than once) and of course - upon reversal to manual procedures the chances of this occurring increases. There could be problems discovered with travel document deficiencies, Trump could throw a tantrum and issue a decree banning persons holding a passport of a particular color, etc.

So, if it ever happens that a person in uniform addresses you onboard an aircraft and says: "Sir (or Madam), you will need to get your hand luggage and follow me!" you just bloody well do it, however pissed off you are! There is no other option open to you, but then afterwards - by all means go on social media and pour as much bile as you like onto the airline for their shitty customer service, - but you HAVE to do what you are told. An instruction to collect your hand luggage and disembark the aircraft is a lawful instruction - there can be no doubt about that in my opinion (needless to say - I'm only expressing MY opinion and you are free to hold a contrary one). Just know this - if I instruct you to disembark an airplane on which I am crew and you fail to comply, I will also call in law enforcement if available, otherwise I will handcuff you, and contain you until such assistance can be found. The passengers were not asked to get up and undress or dance a polka! There was nothing frivolous about it and as pissed off as the Doctor would have felt - if they had "abandoned" the attempt to get the Doctor off BECAUSE he refused, and then picked someone else - imagine the downfall of that! There is a ranking order onboard an airplane for a very good reason, the instruction issued was entirely reasonable and under the circumstances were deemed necessary by the airline and the ensuing law enforcement officer. It's in the fine print on any IATA carriers ticketing conditions (carriage is not assured even if boarding pass has been issued and the plane has been boarded, or words to that effect).
Pretty much what I've said regarding the legal aspect. What UA did was woeful but I think the words you are looking for are along the lines of (or words to the effect), the carrier reserves the right to alter the times, the dates, the method of carriage and/or the carriers involved in the services and the equipment to be utilized for any reason it sees fit.
You are correct about thinking it through. Something that used to happen at the most recent airline I worked for was downgrades from A330 to 737 (737 having fixed J class section as opposed to the other mob). If this happens enroute, e.g. in ADL on a transcontinental service (as used to happen at Ansett sometimes, from 767 to 737 or A320), the pax won't all fit on the aircraft so the pax who have boarded and are in transit are selected usually at random and placed on a later service. There's not point when the aircraft which is terminating stops at the gate in refusing to disembark. There are other issues as well... a slide goes U/S and the pax load has to be reduced. If this legal right to take pax off an aircraft is removed I can see some real cockups happening... airline forced to fix/replace the slide in situ, flight delayed to the point where crew are out of hours and now EVERYONE has to get off. Like I said elsewhere. An aircraft is property. You have a right as does a company to order someone off your property for whatever reason even if you've invited them there. If they refuse it's trespass. I've been told this by Police and by Security management at a previous airline. I remember saying at the time that if it was me, I wouldn't have been happy but I would have got off the aircraft and then raised hell with the airline management afterward.
The problem with the US these days is that if you simply argue once off the aeroplane or even at the counter over a baggage allowance, without raising your voice or acting in a threatening manner in any way but rather reasoned, measured discussion, there is still every chance in that country that you will be handed over to Police for 'becoming abusive'. I am so sick of hearing the US (a country I used to admire once) talking about their freedom, etc. when in fact they are every bit a third rate Police State these days. They have tens of thousands of police forces and they're all armed, they're mostly badly trained and over react totally in just about every circumstance. If anyone disagrees with that then I suggest they watch the tape of the African American man changing his tyre on the side of the road who was shot 6 times by a Police officer, effectively for nothing.
It is this culture that caused this incident... I mean, the 'Chicago Aviation Police' what the hell is that??? Do they also have a 'Chicago front curb, terminal entry police' and a 'car park police' as well... pathetic.
No one I believe thinks it's acceptable for a passenger to be taken off a flight because of the airline's requirements but it is legal and anyone who thinks it's not is living in lala land. It may not be good business practice, it may not be practical but it is legal. The only difference in this case was that the word was obviously received after everyone had boarded.

The name is Porter
19th Apr 2017, 13:01
Talking about their freedom, etc. when in fact they are every bit a third rate Police State these days.

You, and anybody else that propagates this view really are an idiot. You clearly haven't spent any time in the US. That, or you just love your nanny state existence.

AerialPerspective
19th Apr 2017, 13:39
You, and anybody else that propagates this view really are an idiot. You clearly haven't spent any time in the US. That, or you just love your nanny state existence.
No. I have spent considerable time in the United States and I've seen the behavior of Law Enforcement there first hand.

This is a country, where as a sample, I have witnessed the following:

1. A family visiting Disneyland on the trip of a lifetime failed to notice that on the mother's passport which included one of the children had a valid US Visa but a 'handwritten' almost unnoticeable biro mark through the S on 'bearers'.
The entire family were taken under armed guard to a hotel, guarded overnight by an officer who watched them go to the toilet, etc then were escorted back the next day and deported.

2. A country like the United States, POST 9/11 wondering why it happened maintained as their records of entry/exit of the country a small green stub from the I94 card stapled to a passport page. The system was totally reliant on a low paid check in agent remembering to remove the stub and passing it to immigration.
An airline employee escorting a group of travel industry personnel to promote the US as a destination who had previously visited the US had left and the check-in agent had obviously lost the stub on her last trip.
The employee traveling on this occasion, was bullied and reduced to tears in front of the guests of the airline and accused of illegally living in the United States. She was hounded and accused of being an illegal immigrant and at no point did it occur to the officious, overbearing imbecile that was putting her through the ringer that the boarding pass she was holding, the exit stamp from Australia, the evidence of crew on the aircraft and any number of their own damn video surveillance could have verified that she arrived on the flight that day from Sydney but NOOOO let's not think, let's just act like a bunch of fascists and do the same as to the family above, assign an armed guard to watch her shower, toilet and strip search her then deport her the next day leaving a group of agents stranded on their own. It was only after representations from the Australian government to the US Embassy in Canberra after the airline (a foreign airline that back then operated SYD-LAX) that she was allowed to return a day later and received an apology from the US.

These are not isolated incidents I saw many examples of this in my years. How does the most powerful nation on earth have the gall to act like this while maintaining a system from the 19th century for recording departures from the country.

On top of this, when visiting Washington DC I was standing drinking a coffee talking to my then wife, next to the seat she was sitting on in the middle of a concourse that was at least 25 metres wide and a DC Cop come barrelling down the concourse and gave me a mouth full of abuse because she had to take one step of about 6 inches to the right to walk around me... I remember thinking at the time "and they let that person carry a firearm???".

I'm not saying that it's like this in every neighborhood and at every shopping mall but if you think that 13,000+ gun deaths every year and a Police shooting (usually of a non-white person) for no apparent reason isn't a sign of (and I acknowledge there are many good Police I'm sure) something seriously wrong with the general law enforcement culture and the culture in general then you are the idiot.

And it's been like this for decades. My father visited for the first time in 1973. He was held up at Customs because he had a bottle of Duty Free Scotch which he had bought to consume at night before bed in his hotel room... the Customs office held him for 20 minutes trying to convince him to admit that it was a gift for someone which it wasn't... I mean, this was a case of 'Don't you have something more important to do???' and in the end he let him go because he said "Look, we can discuss this for the next week if you like but the story is not going to change, I bought it for my own consumption".

AerialPerspective
19th Apr 2017, 13:47
You, and anybody else that propagates this view really are an idiot. You clearly haven't spent any time in the US. That, or you just love your nanny state existence.
And I don't live in a nanny-State thank you very much. I live in a decent society that doesn't think it is acceptable in the 21st Century (or the 20th for that matter) to see any of its citizens die on the steps of a hospital or be refused treatment because of a dispute between insurance companies.

The really laughable thing is, if that makes us a nanny State where we spend approximately 9% of GDP on health and everyone is covered as opposed to the US who spend nearly 20% and nearly a tenth of the population isn't covered, then I'll go with the moniker happily.

The only developed Western country without universal health care and at least regional pilots, many on 'food stamps' must make you so proud. Certainly Sully isn't a big fan from his testimony to Congress.

The Baron
19th Apr 2017, 21:08
Serious Thread drift alert!
Back on topic or locking please MODERATORS.

parabellum
19th Apr 2017, 22:16
while the good Doctor elected not to do it, and was physically fighting a lawful ejection from the aircraft. Not so, Red Jet, the Doctor had a binding contract with the airline and had bought that seat for this particular trip, he had been properly ticketed and processed so that he could and did legally board the flight. The company then decided that it wanted to vary that contract, this is properly achieved by negotiation, if negotiation fails, as it did in this case, physically throwing the passenger off the flight is not an option, there is no contract written that allows that. This was entirely an internal problem for the airline.

Sunfish
19th Apr 2017, 22:35
Red jet and Icarus:

Had he got out of his seat and exited the aircraft as asked and as the other three passengers did then none of that would have occured.

Self inflicted.

Both of you make the case that the passenger was required by law to comply with what was purported to be a lawful instruction from aircrew (or cabin crew).

However the instruction itself was sufficiently bizarre enough for the passenger to challenge it and that triggered an overly aggressive response from the airport police.

I say "bizarre" because this type of behaviour is unheard of (until now) on an already loaded aircraft although it is not unknown before boarding. To put that another way, every passenger seated on that aircraft had a valid ticket and boarding pass and the expectation that they would be carried to their destination, or as close as possible, etc. etc. United messed with passengers expectations and this is going to hurt them in future.

My experience with overbooking is that the standard tactic is either a hotel phone call or counter suggestion that "we can't find your name on the passenger list" followed by an offer to book you on the next available flight. The standard response to this, as my father taught me was; "Try someone else, here is my booking confirmation and ticket". I always carry documents in duplicate for just this reason.

I would have reacted exactly the same as the doctor in question - "try someone else".

The only sane responses to this situation would be

(a) Not overbooking - which is a disgraceful policy, visible at any American airport..

(b) Unloading all pax and then reboarding selected pax and compensating the others.

(c) Auctioning seats until enough people took the money.

As for the suggestion that the passenger should have complied with the instruction and then complained to ground staff, pull the other one. Once he was back in the terminal it's "mission is accomplished" for the airline staff. He can threaten to sue, but you and I know that the fine print on the ticket protects the carrier and he has a snowballs chance in hell of recompense.

All he would get is; "here is your new ticket and if you keep complaining I'll have you thrown out or arrested". There is no customer service in the USA, instead there are company peasants inflicting draconian corrupt company policy on customer peasants. That is why I'm never going back.

porch monkey
19th Apr 2017, 23:00
I'm sure they'll miss you and all your mates. Travel there regularly. NEVER have I had that kind of lack of service, from anyone............

Sunfish
19th Apr 2017, 23:06
Porch Monkey:

I'm sure they'll miss you and all your mates. Travel there regularly. NEVER have I had that kind of lack of service, from anyone.

Glad to hear it Monkey, but wait until you do. The change for "Would Sir like this?" to "do what you are told" is fast frightening and usually accompanied by the threat of violence or jail or both.

To put that another way; ever been in an American hotel or store and noticed the instant change in customer service when your credit card is declined?

AerialPerspective
19th Apr 2017, 23:36
Serious Thread drift alert!
Back on topic or locking please MODERATORS.
Couldn't agree more... I don't know who started inserting discussion about the UA incident, it was about JT and JB somewhere in the distant past.

porch monkey
20th Apr 2017, 00:42
Sunfish. Nope, never. But then, I take some easy precautions for things like that. For all the tales of woe, I can provide just as many of exceptional service, even from Law Enforcement. I'm just adding my perspective because you only ever hear about the bad things on these types of website. It isn't all doom and gloom as some of you would make out. You have 1 person's experiences. How many people have a different experience from yours every day? How much is a media beat up? Please, can we go back to original programming?

Oakape
20th Apr 2017, 01:08
Have two threads been inadvertently merged, or are half the people on this thread cracked in the head? :ugh:



PR preparation for the Borghetti replacement underway

AerialPerspective
20th Apr 2017, 02:34
Have two threads been inadvertently merged, or are half the people on this thread cracked in the head? :ugh:
I think it started looking back when someone mentioned the UA incident and that JB could go over there and teach them a thing or two... my response is maybe, but they'd all be making a loss after he'd been there a while LOL

The Bullwinkle
20th Apr 2017, 03:00
Let's face it, JB's been missing in action for months, a CEO in name only.
Staff can't wait for him to announce his resignation for whatever bullshit reason. (spend more time with family, pursue other opportunities, blah blah blah)
It's to be hoped that the damage he has caused during his tenure can be repaired, but it may be too little too late.
There will certainly be a lift in morale once JT assumes the role but unless there is any real substance associated with the change, that morale boost will be shortlived.

The name is Porter
20th Apr 2017, 08:31
And I don't live in a nanny-State thank you very much. I live in a decent society that doesn't think it is acceptable in the 21st Century (or the 20th for that matter) to see any of its citizens die on the steps of a hospital or be refused treatment because of a dispute between insurance companies.

What in God's name has that got to do with the 'Nanny State?'

The really laughable thing is, if that makes us a nanny State where we spend approximately 9% of GDP on health and everyone is covered as opposed to the US who spend nearly 20% and nearly a tenth of the population isn't covered, then I'll go with the moniker happily.

Yet again, nothing to do with the 'Nanny State'

The only developed Western country without universal health care and at least regional pilots, many on 'food stamps' must make you so proud. Certainly Sully isn't a big fan from his testimony to Congress.

Yet again, nothing to do with the 'Nanny State'

Santa Barbara doesn't mean I'm from the States, I'm an Australian (an embarrassed one).

Your previous load of tripe regarding the police state is absolute garbage. I've never experienced the rubbish you try and pass off as a police state, law enforcement in the States is a breath of fresh air compared to the brainwashed garbage we put up with here.

The name is Porter
20th Apr 2017, 08:33
Have two threads been inadvertently merged, or are half the people on this thread cracked in the head?

Thread drift, so what? Every thread drifts. This site would have to close down if the mods shut every thread drifted thread down.

AerialPerspective
20th Apr 2017, 09:52
What in God's name has that got to do with the 'Nanny State?'



Yet again, nothing to do with the 'Nanny State'



Yet again, nothing to do with the 'Nanny State'

Santa Barbara doesn't mean I'm from the States, I'm an Australian (an embarrassed one).

Your previous load of tripe regarding the police state is absolute garbage. I've never experienced the rubbish you try and pass off as a police state, law enforcement in the States is a breath of fresh air compared to the brainwashed garbage we put up with here.
Well, if you go around putting your location as the United States, what do you expect??? People to think you live in Swaziland???

Secondly - quote - "...or you just love your nanny state existence." which was obviously a reference to the fact that since my location is Australia, it was a crack about it.

The definition of 'nanny State' (which originated in Britain btw) is a State that is overprotective of it's population, providing things like universal health care.

Then you say it's "...nothing to do with nanny State" so what did you write it for???

Yeh, I'm embarrassed too, embarrassed for the same reasons as you but in reverse. Part of my family is from the United States, you wouldn't know that because you obviously assume things and I don't personally care what your experience is, I was talking about mine and mine is that many American law enforcement are overbearing and trigger happy and the sort of attitude that that imbues is precisely what led to the treatment of Dr Dao.

You claim to be an embarrassed Australian, well, if you are in the US (and not Santa Barbara in QLD), it's a pity your concern for Australia doesn't actually extend to living here. If you do live here, so what, everyone has different experiences and just because yours doesn't accord with others, doesn't mean we all have to agree with you.