Biggest Non Nuke Dropped in Afghanistan

[charliegolf]

CNN reporting...

Dropped from a cargo aircraft apparently. An ISIS camp and tunnel system was the target.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/13/politics/afghanistan-isis-moab-bomb/index.html

[MPN11]

Excellent. Out.

[charliegolf]

Loadie with his finger on the button then!

[Lyneham Lad]

It was the first time this type of bomb had been used in combat and was dropped from a MC-130 aircraft, Pentagon spokesman Adam Stump said. - Reuters report (http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-afghanistan-bomb-idUKKBN17F27W).

[Molemot]

I seem to recall that the Grand Slam was 22,000lbs.....(!)

[pasta]

22,000 lbs was the total weight of the Grand Slam; according to Wikipedia (which we all know can be relied upon without question) it "only" contained 9,136 lbs of explosive.

[Lyneham Lad]

I seem to recall that the Grand Slam was 22,000lbs.....(!)

According to that font of all knowledge, the GBU-43/B (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-43/B_Massive_Ordnance_Air_Blast) weighs in at 22,600lbs.

[reds & greens]

That'll smart a bit...

[RAFEngO74to09]

http://i.imgur.com/CXJiuMK.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9H50tHiHjs

[West Coast]

The laborers in NK are being told to dig a little deeper.

[1771 DELETE]

didn't look like an air blast to me ?

[Saintsman]

Just curious as to the effect on the aircraft as the bomb is released. It's one big load to suddenly not be carrying.

[fltlt]

Just curious as to the effect on the aircraft as the bomb is released. It's one big load to suddenly not be carrying.

Same as a laxative perhaps.

[Chris Scott]

Remarkable that this MOAB had to be dropped from the cargo ramp of a Herc, presumably in the absence of any current bomber capable of accommodating it?

Roy Chadwick's late-1930s design, slightly modified, might have done the job:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_(bomb)#/media/File:Lancaster_617_Sqn_RAF_dropping_Grand_Slam_bomb_on_Arnsb erg_viaduct_1945.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_(bomb)#/media/File:British_Grand_Slam_bomb.jpg

[blimey]

My hat blew off today. I now know why.

DJT apparently letting the military just get on with it. There's a thought.

[Two's in]

Let's see some BDA before we get too euphoric. We don't quite have a solid track record of hitting barn doors with banjos in that area.

[gums]

Salute!

Living here at Eglin where many weapons have been developed and tested, I have no small insight.

I helped with the intitial JDAM bomb to increase accuracy and then employ a terminal seeker to enhance the "end game". Did pilot displays and controls for the Mmwave Maverick. Did crew displays for the USN A-12 before it was cancelled. And the beat goes on.

So I drove out west 30 miles and found a good hill to see the second MOAB test and enjoyed it. It does not have a "sharp" crack as the other bombs I dropped in combat or witnessed from the ground. The Herc pulls a drogue chute and then lets the bomb roll out. The chute is released and the MOAB guidance takes over. I watched with my binoculars until the thing got just below the trees on a small ridge. Then the musroom cloud and 20 seconds later I heard it.

The bomb is not a "contact fuze" demolition doofer. It is some kinda a "thermobaric" thing and explodes a hundred feet or more above ground.

Later,

Gums sends...

[Chris Scott]

Salute gums!

"The bomb is not a "contact fuze" demolition doofer. I thing is a "thermobaric" thing and explodes a hundred feet or more above ground."

Very different from Grand Slam, then, which was a deeply-penetrating earthquake bomb with a very strong casing.

[Titania]

Salute!

Living here at Eglin where many weapons have been developed and tested, I have no small insight.

I helped with the intitial JDAM bomb to increase accuracy and then employ a terminal seeker to enhance the "end game". Did pilot displays and controls for the Mmwave Maverick. Did crew displays for the USN A-12 before it was cancelled. And the beat goes on.

So I drove out west 30 miles and found a good hill to see the second MOAB test and enjoyed it. It does not have a "sharp" crack as the other bombs I dropped in combat or witnessed from the ground. The Herc pulls a drogue chute and then lets the bomb roll out. The chute is released and the MOAB guidance takes over. I watched with my binoculars until the thing got just below the trees on a small ridge. Then the musroom cloud and 20 seconds later I heard it.

The bomb is not a "contact fuze" demolition doofer. It is some kinda a "thermobaric" thing and explodes a hundred feet or more above ground.

Later,

Gums sends...

So how long does it take to fall down with the chute from what typical height?

[tartare]

Wifey who is a tv news producer wants to know if its the first time moab has been used in anger? Apparently not?

[dynamics]

Wifey who is a tv news producer wants to know if its the first time moab has been used in anger? Apparently not?

CNN reporting that it is. Perhaps more of a live test, than a necessity.

[dynamics]

Just curious as to the effect on the aircraft as the bomb is released. It's one big load to suddenly not be carrying.

Sudden pitch up followed by an immediate correction, by the looks of it...

zEcloVfZ7u4

[ExAscoteer]

Not much different to dropping an MSP then.

[ORAC]

GBU-43/B Massive Ordnance Air Blast (MOAB)

Alternatively - Mother Of All Bombs.

Not sure which name came first.

[TURIN]

I seem to recall that the Grand Slam was 22,000lbs.....(!)

I also seem to recall that it was designed to create an earthquake like effect. Probably more effective against underground tunnels than an airburst perhaps.

[ORAC]

Wont damage the structure as much, but much more efficient at killing the inhabitants. The initial overpressure then following rarefaction ruptures the lungs of those in the caves and tunnels - in fact the channel and increase the effect.

What Is The MOAB? An Explainer On The Biggest Non-Nuclear Bomb (http://uproxx.com/technology/what-is-moab-biggest-bomb-explainer/)

[TEEEJ]

Remarkable that this MOAB had to be dropped from the cargo ramp of a Herc, presumably in the absence of any current bomber capable of accommodating it?

Roy Chadwick's late-1930s design, slightly modified, might have done the job:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_(bomb)#/media/File:Lancaster_617_Sqn_RAF_dropping_Grand_Slam_bomb_on_Arnsb erg_viaduct_1945.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_(bomb)#/media/File:British_Grand_Slam_bomb.jpg

The B-52 and B-2 can carry the heavier GBU-57.

https://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/B-2-MOP.jpg

MOPping Up: The USA?s 30,000 Pound GBU-57 Bomb (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/mopping-up-the-usas-30000-pound-bomb-03172/)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_Ordnance_Penetrator

[Just This Once...]

Remarkable that this MOAB had to be dropped from the cargo ramp of a Herc, presumably in the absence of any current bomber capable of accommodating it?

You should probably look at that from the other way round. The USAF has the flexibility to be able to drop munitions such as this from in-theatre aircraft without the disproportionate effort required to use a B-52 or B-2 for the same task.

[Pontius Navigator]

According to that font of all knowledge, the GBU-43/B (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-43/B_Massive_Ordnance_Air_Blast) weighs in at 22,600lbs.

A Reuters reports 21,600lbs. As Reuters report was probably from the Pentagon I think we can say Grand Slam has it.

How do you count casualties with such certainty?

As ORAC says, the MOAB kills by overpressure so maybe a satellite count from the evacuation. With Grand Slam it would take weeks of careful mining to excavate the camouflet.

[ericferret]

Danger UXB? (C) Steve Fareham :: Geograph Britain and Ireland (http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/5286951)

The Lincolnshire Popular Front has aquired it's own grand slam which we have hidden in a secret location. Now waiting for "Just Jane" to become airworthy again and we are in business.

http://www.lincsaviation.co.uk/

[pax britanica]

Dont think it would be much good on a B2 kind of ruins all that Stealthy stuff. I assumed it would be B52 as the carrier as it must seem like an age to a Herc crew lugging it over bad guy territory and then getting out of the way. Precision and non precison bomb at the same time

[dragartist]

Looking at google earth it appears they have cleared the scrap compound up at Laguna Airfield at Yuma Proving Ground since I was last there 6 years ago. Still some remnants of the early airdrop tests.
Ex Ascot - More like a PURIBAD really. similar methods for separating the payload from the platform after extraction.
I do think however that the Grandslam approach would have made the cave system unusable.

[ancientaviator62]

If we discuss weight dropped and trim change for the Hercules then a triple ULLA drop (42000lbs) from a C130K might take some beating.
However I think the 'daddy' of them all has to be the ICBM dropped from a C5 !

[ORAC]

Pax,

The B-2 carries it internally - that exotic shape is wrapped around a very large bomb bay.


https://www.pond5.com/stock-footage/10858352/b-2-bunker-buster.html

[pax britanica]

Orac

Thanks for clearing that up-I thought it very odd otherwise . I think the picture perspective makes the bomb look bigger than it is and the B2 Bomb Bay smaller than it is.

A B52 with one either side would pretty cool though.

I wonder if this was also a demo to Lil Fat Kim sought of 'look out we don't need nukes to destroy underground complexes'. Someone as bad as Kim must a have a super gigantic underground complex if the James Bond law that all megalomaniac baddies live in underground fortresses with pools of steaming liquids , men and women in tight clothes watching radar screens and klaxons

[gums]

Salute!

The B-2 picture seems to make the bomb look bigger than it really is.

OTOH, I did "fit checks" on the plane for the JDAM and another weapon. The bays are huge! You can put your auto in one. After all, it can carry 80 MK-82 boms, no kidding - 80 friggin' bombs all internal. Each bay handles 8 x 2000 lb JDAM on rotary launchers.

We have the main Special Ops base here, besides the Armament Development folks. So my neighbor (a MC-130 pilot) across the street dropped one of the older 'Daisy Cutter" bombs back in Desert Storm. We later had another MC-130 troop move in two doors down, but he didn't drop a big one in the second Iraq deal, and I don't think any were used. They said the loss of weight was not all that bad as long as you had the bird trimmed strongly nose down before the sucker rolled out the back.

Interestingly, we tried the original FAE doofers back in my day in 'nam. They were advertised the same about overpressure and using it on cave/tunnel complexes. They didn't have the mixture mechanism perfected and some of them fizzled and others only produced a small fireball and no "explosion", they were kinda like a Hollywood special effect with lottsa deisel fuel and gasoline.

They ain't kidding about the shockwave effects, though. We saw the bad guys shooting right outta the smoke from our nape. But if we dropped a MK-82 or bigger close to a gun position they didn't shoot for a minute or more. 'course, a direct hit was "game over".

Gums sends...

[The Sultan]

Reported only 36 killed in MOAB strike which equates to $500K per kill. Not a good return on use of a limited asset. In Trumpet's world at $16M a piece the MOAB is three rounds of golf.

[BlackIsle]

North Korean missile facilities next on the mailing list?

[langleybaston]

The problem with NK may be that nobody dares tell Lil Fat Kim what he needs to know, so he does the nuke test and then DT gets proud of the military again.

On second thoughts, why not?

[SASless]

PN,

When you get into the "Kick Ass and take no names!" Mode....who cares about doing a Tally of bad guys rendered Combat Ineffective!

[Pontius Navigator]

SASLess, quite, but wasn't that the road you used in 'man and then decided it was not good? I think we refused to broadcast body count in recent actions.

My point is how did they know? What if they bad guys hid one :)

[Pontius Navigator]

I wonder how a pair of guided Tall Boys would work? One to kick the door in and the next to clear the basement. Or even 4, not that would rattle the cage.

[gums]

@ Pontius, et al

I gave up on the body count when it got ridiculous, you know, one mission with trapped enema in a small wooded area they went to and the body count was over a hindred. I had many more "counts" when you consider 400 missions mostly CAS and not interdiction or such. So I soured on such "score". I just wanted to "win" and come home.

The big thing is to see the effect of the campaign/mission WRT achieving the "goal". So there are many things that determine military effectiveness.

Unlike Desert Storm or even 'raqi II, the most recent conflicts make it hard to determine the bad guys from the good guys and the innocent bystanders. Although I would personally move if I had known bad guys next door building IED's and sneaking about.

Gums opines...

[albatross]

https://youtu.be/R-Mm-zFW_nA

Now that is a penetration weapon.
Did they not drop one, or at least it's little brother, the Tallboy, on a German U-boat pen to great effect?

[KenV]

Reported only 36 killed in MOAB strike which equates to $500K per kill. Not a good return on use of a limited asset. In Trumpet's world at $16M a piece the MOAB is three rounds of golf.Who provided the KIA report? Russians? They (falsely) claimed half the Tomahawks missed/failed

And what is this absurd fixation on cost since Trump got into the white house? This was a military decision and the military simply does not factor in dollar cost in their tactical decisions. This complex was EXACTLY what this bomb was designed for. It would be beyond absurd to design, test and produce a bomb for a very specific task and then not use it because it's 'too expensive."

[Pontius Navigator]

Albat, indeed, TB was better at that as it was a stronger bomb. On the viaduct attack GS was perfect for underground bursts.

[West Coast]

Reported only 36 killed in MOAB strike which equates to $500K per kill. Not a good return on use of a limited asset. In Trumpet's world at $16M a piece the MOAB is three rounds of golf.

You clearly have no clue as to the destructive potential of a platoon-ish sized group of well trained, experienced and well led fighters.

[Two's in]

North Korean missile facilities next on the mailing list?

Good luck getting in and out in a C-130!

[charliegolf]

Good luck getting in and out in a C-130!

Yep, had that thought too!

CG

[SASless]

PN,

I would suggest the Oppo's removed fewer than the USAF did!

Probably more than a few shall only be a mere figment of some Mother's memory.

Bit of Vietnam Lore.....General Westmoreland (Sound of spitting heard) who was the architect of the Bodycount silliness, while inspecting the 1st Air Cav's CH-47 "Guns-A-GoGo" unit......asked a Door Gunner how many Enemy Soldiers he had killed....to be told "Thirteen, Sir!".

Westmoreland asked how the Gunner could be so sure of that....and the Gunner said "I soot them till something falls off!".

Which with a Ma Deuce (.50 Caliber Browning MG) is not that hard to do....would sound believable.

It is not how many you kill....it is destroying their capability and Will to fight that allows you to win.

Had we had Abrams from the outset instead of Westmoreland (Sound of spitting heard).....things would have been much different. Abrams was about Logistics and not mere attrition as a strategy.

[Pontius Navigator]

Body count from boots on the ground. Raises a question, if you can put boots on the ground was MOAB the right weapon. I guess it avoided the need to clear the bunker with close quarter action.

[gums]

@Pontius

We already had "boots on the ground" there, and have had for 15 friggin' years!!

Another of my Spec OPs neighbors parachuted into the 'stan a week or two after 9/11 and rode about on horses using a wooden saddle as he made friends with the Northern Alliance.

The VietNam generals that ran Desert Storm and their contemporaries like me made it clear there would be no protracted effort once the goal was achieved. Hell , General Horner was my first senior officer student in the Viper back in 1980. He was a full bird and I was an lt col. We all shared the same philosophy ten years later.

Somehow we lost that attitude and started all this "nation building" crapola. Ain't worth it unless you wish to occupy a place and emulate the old Soviets and the Wehrmacht.

If you really wanna get mean and play for keeps with the grunts, then you throw gas down the tunnels and caves, then a few thousand liters of kerosene followed by a match.

The MOAB has its place as an effective weapon WRT casualties in the appropriate terrain and it is also a great psychological implement. In fact, my neighbor that dropped the daisy cutter did so after the psyops folks dropped many leaflets over the Iraqi unit for a few days And then one night..........
+++++++++
This was good choice for employing the MOAB compared to some small village, dontchya think?

And oh, BTW, one of our boots on the ground was a neighbor closeby that was killed there just a few days ago.

Gums opines

[SASless]

PN,

Cookies from the Heavens with scant risk to friendlies and max risk to the Oppo's sounds like a good Recipe!

''Tis a shame we never fielded the Neutron Bomb.....several places today where a few dozen of those could be put to good use!

[BlackIsle]

Good luck getting in and out in a C-130!

With the Donald talking of solving things I wouldn't expect a delivery to be made in isolation! A few targeted cruise missiles to create some confusion and degradation of command and control....cyber attack......?

[Rigga]

Two MOABs were dropped in GW1 - although they were call Daisy Cutters then. We were told they would be delivered to avoid us going into NBC modes as we were in sight of the clouds.

[polecat2]

Wifey who is a tv news producer wants to know if its the first time moab has been used in anger? Apparently not?

There was a large bomb used in Vietnam which was referred to as a MOAB. I forget exactly what this stood for but at the time the troops said it was "Mother of all Bombs".

It was used for creating clearings in the jungle for helicopters to land and was dropped from a Sikorski Skycrane helicopter.

Perhaps one of the US guys can say more?

Polecat

[Two's in]

With the Donald talking of solving things I wouldn't expect a delivery to be made in isolation! A few targeted cruise missiles to create some confusion and degradation of command and control....cyber attack......?

Black Isle my point was simply that after 15 years of establishing Air Superiority against the mighty Toyota Hilux, things may be slightly different against a well organized Air Defence network and opposing air. I hope we haven't become too complacent in thinking we can just tip up over the drop zone without some preparation of the battlefield.

[SASless]

10,000 Pound Bomb with a ground level detonation.....dropped in the middle of the jungle and it created a very quick LZ for a Huey or Two....which then could be rapidly enlarged when Chinooks or Sky Cranes brought in Bulldozers.

The Bomb was dropped by C-130 generally.....with a try or two using a Sky Crane.

If memory serves me right....only a half dozen or less were ever dropped in anger.

Using the big bomb threw a monkey wrench into the NVA tactic of watching clearings most likely to be used for helicopter insertions of troops down to even LRRP Teams.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nfCdTRXj10

[Hangarshuffle]

The Atlantic magazine has an interesting take on it. ISIS forces in the region the bomb was dropped are or were in the number of 700. They are not popular within this region with local warlords and including the local Taliban. Its unlikely they would have gained a foothold anyway. Under Trump the recent number of USAF airstrikes has surged within Afghanistan anyway, possibly a reflection that this may deflect attention away from his other problems. Whatever, the local use of this weapon was entirely superfluous.

MOAB was designed to penetrate and destroy underground targets possibly nuclear or MMD within Iran or N Korea. Was the mission really to demonstrate to other nations that the USA has such a weapon and now intends to shortly use them elsewhere in the world? Who knows with the present Bash Street mob mentality of the POTUS and his family and friends.

[RedhillPhil]

I'm fairly sure that the big buggahs that were dropped in Vietnam were US built version of Tallboys without the tail unit and a gert big long probe with the fuse on the end so that it detonated at ground level.

[SASless]

Hangar....are confusing two different bombs?

[ORAC]

Pretty sure he's describing the GBU-57 MOP, totally different bomb.

[A_Van]

Good move with this GBU-43, IMHO.
No matter how many jihadists, mojahedeens and other rats were killed underground, it was a right demo showing that there was no shelter anymore there and that death is just a shot away. Demoralization of the enemy often matters more than "local arithmetics".
BTW, for those interested here is a comparison of this american "mom" with a russian "dad":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_of_All_Bombs

[Pontius Navigator]

Gums, indeed, I think our paper said 5,000. Must admit I was thinking 'deep in bandit country' rather than CAS. I note it is Afg army units that have secured the site.

[Basil]

Demoralization of the enemy often matters more than "local arithmetics"
Quite; as demonstrated by 'Black Buck'.

[TEEEJ]

MOAB was designed to penetrate and destroy underground targets possibly nuclear or MMD within Iran or N Korea. Was the mission really to demonstrate to other nations that the USA has such a weapon and now intends to shortly use them elsewhere in the world? Who knows with the present Bash Street mob mentality of the POTUS and his family and friends.

HS, You are confusing two different bombs. GBU-43 MOAB is not a penetrator weapon. GBU-57 Massive Ordnance Penetrator (MOP) is the weapon designed to destroy hardened underground targets.

GBU-43

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-43/B_Massive_Ordnance_Air_Blast

GBU-57

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_Ordnance_Penetrator

[Basil]

Wonder why they didn't use the -57?

[Pontius Navigator]

Basil, I would guess the nature of the target. A hardened underground target will have secure blast doors and probably a reinforced concrete shell. A bomb that penetrates such a structure before exploding will exploit the hardened shell thus increasing its effect.

A cave complex may be susceptible to blast overrepresented.

We can deduce the nature of this target.

[Basil]

Ah, so . . . cunning interpretation of intelligence :cool:

[chopper2004]

If you talk about bean counters - here is a cheaper alternative to a MC-130J Combat Spear dropping it..Albeit might need an escort of AH-64D/E and the cost of turning Erickson Aircrane into battlefield use albeit same airframe has not been used for damn near 4 deacdes...and probably some decent CAP overhead,

cheers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2qLuASjKXo

[MPN11]

Used to create an HLS, IRC

[BEagle]

In GW1 (the 'honest one'), Schwarzkopf suggested use of the BLU-82 to clear Iraqi minefields. He was advised that "Everybody within 3 miles of the drop will be bleeding from every orifice of his body". Combined with suitable leaflet drops, the psychological effect on the Iraqis would be obvious....

One day we were told "Jake and Elwood will be playing the desert tomorrow!". Having no idea what that meant, it was only after the first 2 BLU-82s had been dropped that we realised that this was a reference to 'The BLUes Brothers'. They had an immediate effect on the rate of desertion, as did the B-52 attacks.

The GBU-43 has an even more devastating effect as the rats holed up in their Afghan tunnels have discovered...

[Rigga]

Beags. Thanks for that clarification of what I saw. And I even paused to watch the B52's flying overhead ...and turning back, post mission drops, I imagine.
I can't remember the Blues Brothers being mentioned to me, but then, I was just a bloke with a spanner and would possibly only be fed half the info, if any.

[BEagle]

Rigga, it was 'just' blokes with spanners like you who kept our ancient jets flying with such a high serviceability rate that I'm pretty sure we didn't lose a single AAR sortie due to tanker unserviceability...:ok: !!

When Jake and Elwood were dropped, it was later reported that an SAS team close to the area thought that Kuwait had been 'nuked'.

[Rigga]

...I was one of those tented in the desert, surrounded by spams and Patriots.

[Rick777]

I don't know much about bombs, but I did read that the body count was close to 100. One of the stated reasons for using the big bomb was the area was thick with IEDs.I guess the bomb took care of those as well as the tunnels and bad guys. Sounds like the military using the proper tool for the job at hand. It probably cost less than lots of sorties dropping lots of smaller bombs.

[gums]

Salute !

Word from a USAF source said the weapon was under $200,000. Compared to AMRAAM, SLAM or Tomahawk or a B-2 sortie, sounds decent.

Gums sends...