Spitfire ex Upton-on-Severn

[HighAndFlighty]

Many years ago, in May 1974, my family and I were touring in the UK. I was a mere teenager at the time.
My father had intentions of obtaining and restoring a Spitfire, and on 24 May 1974 we inspected a Spitfire, pretty much intact but engineless, on static exhibition outside a pub (called, quite naturally, "The Spitfire").
I'm not exactly sure where the pub (and the Spitfire) was, but I believe it was located in a town called Upton-on-Severn in Worcestershire, or thereabouts. That day we had traveled from the Welsh town of Knighton, and my geography may be a bit off.
The asking price for the Spitfire was about UKP30,000.
I recall that the aircraft was of the clipped-wing variety. The old man had some concern as to the fuselage shape, and in hindsight I suspect it may have been one of the late Griffin powered varieties, rather than the earlier Merlin engined version he was seeking.
I understand the pub is no longer there, but does anybody have any details of this particular aircraft, and what happened to it?

[Wander00]

Sounds like one for Mk 22!!

[DaveReidUK]

Many years ago, in May 1974, my family and I were touring in the UK. I was a mere teenager at the time.
My father had intentions of obtaining and restoring a Spitfire, and on 24 May 1974 we inspected a Spitfire, pretty much intact but engineless, on static exhibition outside a pub (called, quite naturally, "The Spitfire").
I'm not exactly sure where the pub (and the Spitfire) was, but I believe it was located in a town called Upton-on-Severn in Worcestershire, or thereabouts. That day we had traveled from the Welsh town of Knighton, and my geography may be a bit off.
The asking price for the Spitfire was about UKP30,000.
I recall that the aircraft was of the clipped-wing variety. The old man had some concern as to the fuselage shape, and in hindsight I suspect it may have been one of the late Griffin powered varieties, rather than the earlier Merlin engined version he was seeking.
I understand the pub is no longer there, but does anybody have any details of this particular aircraft, and what happened to it?

Upper Hill, near Leominster, rather than Upton-on-Severn.

It was Spitfire LF.XVIe TD135, so it did indeed have clipped wings. It's now owned by a collector in Belgium and in storage there pending a rebuild.

The Swift moved on too, a few years ago.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=113770&d=1140130037

[jolihokistix]

Probably unrelated, but around 1953-56 there was a Spitfire parked down Sling Lane (?) in Gt Malvern. We used to walk down to the playing fields and passed it on the left just before going under the railway line.

[wiggy]

Well found Dave

Being very much from that part of the world (albeit many years back) I have vague memories of the Swift (which is still visible on Google Earth but I belive it was sold about 5 years ago and has gone), but for some reason the Spit didn't ring a bell at all.

For the Google spotters it's about 600m SSE of where Google Earth thinks "Upper Hill Leominster" is, at roughly N52 deg 10'37" W002 deg 46'33". It also looks from street view as if the Spit has been replaced by a light tank!!!!!

For some reason pprune won't let me imbed the link to a piece which covers this story, but googling "thunder and lightning leominster swift"..will find it..

BTW in passing it's pronounced "Lem-stir" by the locals, callingl it "leo - min- stir" can get you some odd looks.........:cool:

[Mark22]

Probably unrelated, but around 1953-56 there was a Spitfire parked down Sling Lane (?) in Gt Malvern. We used to walk down to the playing fields and passed it on the left just before going under the railway line.

Mk 21 LA228. Unfortunately it was scrapped.

[treadigraph]

Mk 21 LA228. Unfortunately it was scrapped.

One that got away... :{

One day soon a late mark Spitfire or Seafire will fly in the UK.

[jolihokistix]

Mk 21 LA228. Unfortunately it was scrapped.

Many thanks, Mark22. :ok: Well, at least I still have the memory, I suppose, shared with others I hope... we used to think it was something old, from another age. It certainly needed a bit of spit and polish.


(How did you know that, by the way?)

[Mark22]

Many thanks, Mark22. :ok: Well, at least I still have the memory, I suppose, shared with others I hope... we used to think it was something old, from another age. It certainly needed a bit of spit and polish.


(How did you know that, by the way?)

We included this Mk 21 in the appendix of our book Spitfire Survivors Volume II in the 'Ones that got away' category.

PeterA

Image :-Dilip Sarkar collection
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/Mark12/Album%206/21-LA228%20Malvern%20ATC%20c.1957%20image%20via%20Dilip%20Sarka r%20collection%20via%20PRA%2001a_zpssbrcyc5q.jpg

[HighAndFlighty]

Thanks David, your information provided a great starting point for me to go down the Spitfire rabbit hole.

I've been able to work out the following summary. Some of the dates overlap, however, so there remains some uncertainty:

1945 - Manufactured at Castle Bromwich Aircraft Factory as an LF Mk. XVIe under contract B981687/39, unit ID IX4218 Spitfire production summary (http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/production.html) [1], [5]
"LF" indicates it was a low altitude fighter
"e" indicates "E" wing shape, can accommodate 4 x 20mm cannons, or 2 x 20mm cannons and 2 x .50 calibre Browning machine guns [6]
Engine - Merlin 266 (Packard, USA) [2]

23/3/1945 - Maintenance unit, RAF North Weald, instructional airframe [1]

1946/49 - Auxiliary Air Force, 604 squadron, RAF Hendon, as NG-U (NG being 604's
squadron code [5], [3], [4])

1949/51 - Unknown

1951/63 - Air Training Corps, Tynemouth, Newcastle [5]

1963/64 - RAF Dishforth: to be dumped as scrap [5]

1964/75 - Acquired by Percy Sheppard/The Spitfire Inn, Leominster (displayed outside pub, cockpit reconstructed) [6]

1975 - Worral Granger/ Connie Motors, Toronto ONT [5]

1975 - Larry Higgins/ Thunderbird Aviation, Deer Valley AZ [5]

1976 - David Boyd & Hurley, Bowler, Tulsa, OK [5]

1978/86 - Ray Stutsman, Elkhart, IN [5]

05/1985-2004 - William C. Anderson, Palymyra NY, Geneseo, NY 5

2004 - Fuselage inspected Catfield UK, dep. for Belgium 22.3.04 [5]

2004/2013 Eric Vormezeele, Brasschaat, Belgium: restoration project [5]

Notes:
[1] production page 110 (http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/p110.html)
[2] TD135 (http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/aircraft-production-data/spitfire-and-seafire/td135.html)
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._604_Squadron_RAF
[4] No. 604 Squadron (RAF) during the Second World War (http://www.historyofwar.org/air/units/RAF/604_wwII.html)
[5] http://www.goodall.com.au/warbirds-directory-v6/vickerssupermarine.pdf
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire_(late_Merlin-powered_variants)

There is a watermarked photo of NG-U on this page, at unknown time and unknown location:

Search the Peter Keating Collection of aviation photographs : A Flying History (http://aflyinghistory.com/search-aeroplane-photographs?query=Spitfire)

There is a photo of NG-U, looking the worse for wear, whilst at 346 squadron. Tynemouth in 1960/61. This would have been shortly before it was to have been sold as scrap.

http://www.theaeroplanecollection.org/minutes/2014-11.pdf

There is what purports to be a photo of NG-U under restoration in the US at Supermarine Spitfire Registry - A Warbirds Resource Group Site (http://www.warbirdregistry.org/spitregistry/spitfire-td135.html), but to my eyes it does not seem to have a cut-down fuselage or bubble canopy. Maybe its the wrong aircraft, or maybe it's just the photo perspective. I don't know.

For what it's worth, Wikipedia says "All production Mk XVIs had clipped wings". However photos exist of various Mk XVIs that don't have clipped wings (CR-S, AU-J). I'm guessing that is an error in Wikipedia, unless the contrary examples have been re-winged.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire_(late_Merlin-powered_variants)
Supermarine Spitfire LF Mk XVIe - G-OXVI - Flying Legends - Touchdown Aviation (http://www.touchdown-aviation.com/flying-legends/plane/spitfire-ltd/supermarine-spitfire-lf-mk-xvie-g-oxvi.php)

[Edit] I've since established that AU-J definitely started life with clipped wings, but now wears rounded wings. It was accident damaged a couple of times, so perhaps its "new" wings are a legacy of those incidents. I don't know about other Mk XVIs with rounded wings, although SL721/JMR definitely seems to have rounded wings in its early wartime days: http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/131/Supermarine-Superstar.aspx)

[Edit 1.5] The Spitfire now flying as AU-J, with rounded wing tips, is a "ring in". It is s/n SL721 and its originally identiy was JMR. It has been repainted as AU-J by the current owner. The "real" AU-J was s/n TB886 and flew with RCAF 421 Red Indian Squadron.

[Edit 2] I've also seen pictures of XVIs with high fuselages and conventional canopies. Am I correct in saying that a MK XVI could have clipped or conventional wing tips, and a high or low fuselage?

[DaveReidUK]

I've since established that AU-J definitely started life with clipped wings, but now wears rounded wings. It was accident damaged a couple of times, so perhaps its "new" wings are a legacy of those incidents. I don't know about other Mk XVIs with rounded wings, although SL721/JMR definitely seems to have rounded wings in its early wartime days: Supermarine Superstar > Vintage Wings of Canada (http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/131/Supermarine-Superstar.aspx))

At the risk of confusing matters, aren't "JMR" and "AU-J" the same aircraft ?

[ZFT]

Memory lane stuff now.

Early 60s RAF Northolt. There was a Spitfire on the A40 side entrance of the airfield and a Swift futher down, same side heading west. Fortunate enough to climb in and out of both (and dream!) frequently.

Where are they now I wonder?

[treadigraph]

I believe the elliptical wing tips are easily removable and a wooden fillet added instead to clip the wings. All of The Fighter Collection's Spitfires (MkV, MkIX and MkXIV) had clipped wings but the Mk IX sported elliptical tips during the filming of "A Piece of Cake". Early MkXVIs were high back, they were essentially MkIXs with a Packard Merlin.

[treadigraph]

ZFT, that Spitfire was a Mk22, now with The Fighter Collection at Duxford awaiting restoration. A MkXVI replaced it, now essentially airworthy with Kermit Weekes in Florida.

[HighAndFlighty]

I believe the elliptical wing tips are easily removable and a wooden fillet added instead to clip the wings. All of The Fighter Collection's Spitfires (MkV, MkIX and MkXIV) had clipped wings but the Mk IX sported elliptical tips during the filming of "A Piece of Cake". Early MkXVIs were high back, they were essentially MkIXs with a Packard Merlin.

Makes sense. I have had a look at John Bennett's account of the WWII record of RAAF Squadron 453 "Defeat to Victory". Appendix 8, pages 168-169 shows a picture of a high-backed XVI and has this to say:

"November 44 - June 45

"First batch of XVIs received by 453 Squadron on 11 November. The 453 ORB noted: 'To all intents and purposes the Spitfire XVI is merely a cleaned up Spit IX with Merlin Packard engine, bomb racks to carry a 250lb bomb under each wing and a 0.5 inch machine gun instead of .303s. All have the modified pointed tail and some have clipped wings. The pilots are quite happy about their performance against that of the Spit IXs. On 20 November, 453 with Nos 602 and 229 Squadrons moved to Swannington, a satellite of Matlaske. The first operation with XVIs was conducted on 21 November, and until 23 November both marks were flown in operations. Most operations were against the V2 sites around The Hague, quite often rearming at B67/Ursel, in Belgium, for further attacks on the return journey to the OK."

[HighAndFlighty]

At the risk of confusing matters, aren't "JMR" and "AU-J" the same aircraft ?

It depends on how you see it. The original "AU-J" was s/n TB886 flown by RCAF 421 Red Indian Squadron from 15/3/45. . And Then There Were Two > Vintage Wings of Canada (http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/454/And-Then-There-Were-Two.aspx). There are a whole lot of pictures of TB886 during its active period, designated AU-J, here: Plane Talking - HyperScale's Aircraft Scale Model Discussion Forum: Mk XVI Spitfire TB886 wartime pics. I added another pic (http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1293922031/1/Mk+XVI+Spitfire+TB886+wartime+pics.+I+added+another+pic). It clearly had clipped wings at that time.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll155/Abacus9999/Pprune/AU-J%20421%20Red%20Indian%20Squadron.jpg (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/Abacus9999/media/Pprune/AU-J%20421%20Red%20Indian%20Squadron.jpg.html)

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll155/Abacus9999/Pprune/XVIe_AU-J_port.jpg (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/Abacus9999/media/Pprune/XVIe_AU-J_port.jpg.html)

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll155/Abacus9999/Pprune/XVIe_AU-J_stbd.jpg (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/Abacus9999/media/Pprune/XVIe_AU-J_stbd.jpg.html)

I have not seen any pictures of this aircraft with rounded wing tips.

TB886 was transferred to the Royal Hellenic Air Force on 27 July 1949. http://allspitfirepilots.org/aircraft/TB886

SL721, on the other hand, never saw war service. It was delivered to 6MU in August 1946, then transferred to Air Vice Marshal Sir James M. Robbin as "JMR" in 1946. AVM Robb had the Spitfire painted a special shade of light blue, and used the airplane from 1946-48. History of Spitfire SL721 (http://www.jerrybilling.ca/Jerry%20Billing%20Spitfire%27s/History%20of%20Spitfire%20SL721.htm). It has always had the rounded wing tips.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll155/Abacus9999/Pprune/SL7213%20JMR.jpg (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/Abacus9999/media/Pprune/SL7213%20JMR.jpg.html)

So, SL721's period under the ID AU-J is a bit of a vanity project. The "real" AU-J was a completely different aircraft. The pictures of "AU-J" with rounded wing tips are SL721 under that guise.

SL721 has been painted as a number of IDs post war. From 1958 to 1965 it was displayed at Beaulieu Motor Museum as JMR (repainted in 1962 as blue RAF “JMR”) ,

It continued to bear the JMR ID through various owners until 1973, when it was re-identified as "D-A".

Some time between 1976 and 1982 it was re-identified again as "WK-W", and continued to wear that designation until 1999 when it was repaired after a ground-loop repainted blue and re-identified as "JMR" again.

However, in 2015 it was again repainted and re-identified as "AU-J".

All of the above info comes from http://www.goodall.com.au/warbirds-directory-v6/vickerssupermarine.pdf, p40.

[DaveReidUK]

I was referring to the "AU-J" that you quoted as having been photographed with elliptical wingtips - that one was SL721.

I don't doubt that the original AU-J was a regular clipped-wing LF.XVI.

[ZFT]

ZFT, that Spitfire was a Mk22, now with The Fighter Collection at Duxford awaiting restoration. A MkXVI replaced it, now essentially airworthy with Kermit Weekes in Florida.

Many thanks