RAF Regiment Special Forces Medal

[ricardian]

I've never come across this medal (http://www.awardmedals.com/raf-regiment-special-forces-medal-p-17961.html?cPath=282_21_587) before and am a bit suspicious

[parabellum]

Looks like a DIY job, stand by for November 11th. see how many are 'on parade'.

[MPN11]

I would like one, but I'm afraid I can't give you any information, 'cos it's Secret, innit!

Oh, how sad :(

[Two's in]

and fields requesting information considered to be secret or highly confidential should be left blank. All applications will be treated with the strictest confidence by our Medals Office and details will not be disclosed to any third parties, under any circumstances.

All very considerate of them, that's exactly how classified information works - if you're not sure, leave it blank.

[Trim Stab]

[QUOTE=ricardian;9734413]I've never come across this medal (http://www.awardmedals.com/raf-regiment-special-forces-medal-p-17961.html?cPath=282_21_587) before and am a bit suspicious[/QUOT

Bear Grylls gets a special mention in the write up, so it must require staying in five star hotels for a week.

[Harley Quinn]

I've never come across this medal (http://www.awardmedals.com/raf-regiment-special-forces-medal-p-17961.html?cPath=282_21_587) before and am a bit suspicious

You're only a bit suspicious?

[4mastacker]

Don't tell Baron Castleshortt!!

[ACW599]

>Don't tell Baron Castleshortt!!<

Or Wesley Tierney :ugh:

[Pontius Navigator]

Must get one for my son in law, he did a tour near a park in London, not Green Park.

I love the clasps. Can they give you blank ones all the places you can't mention?

What about the V-Force and SAC? We were special, elite and sworn to secrecy too? Or 51, a number to conjure with? Or the Silent Service?

[The Oberon]

I've never come across this medal (http://www.awardmedals.com/raf-regiment-special-forces-medal-p-17961.html?cPath=282_21_587) before and am a bit suspicious

That moustache device pin is upside down!

[Pontius Navigator]

That moustache device pin is upside down!

No it's not. It is for female operatives

[Tankertrashnav]

I'm an ex-Rock and would love one of these to go with my solitary GSM, but I'm a bit skint at the moment. I'm thinking of doing a bit of crowd funding on here to pay for one - anyone want to chip in? ;)

These vanity things seem to be getting dearer, £30 - £35 used to be the usual price. Maybe the price of cupro-nickel has gone up!

[ORAC]

GSM? I haven't even got one of them, or a Jubilee or anything else. Then again, only thing I ever had fired at me was a mess bazooka - so I'm not complaining.

It was almost unusual to see anyone except the Regiment and SH force walking around in RAF blue and wearing medals in the 1980s, I would imagine the opposite is now true.

[Dougie M]

I think the Walter Mitty team might ask a few embarrassing questions if that "commemorative" gong were to get mixed up with real medals round Nov 11th.

[charliegolf]

If a person is able to suspend the obvious knowledge that he or she is simply not entitled to it, then I feel for them. It's sad. I'm a proud Welsh rugby fan, but I cannot bring myself to wear a 'Welsh rugby shirt' for matches. (Im now picturing me in a red shirt with SF medal on it. Sweet!)

CG

[ShyTorque]

Come on, CG... you were always "a bit special"..... :E
:p

[The Oberon]

If a person is able to suspend the obvious knowledge that he or she is simply not entitled to it, then I feel for them. It's sad. I'm a proud Welsh rugby fan, but I cannot bring myself to wear a 'Welsh rugby shirt' for matches. (Im now picturing me in a red shirt with SF medal on it. Sweet!)

CG

Ah, you must be the one with the daffodil "halo" round your face.

[charliegolf]

Sprung!

CG

Face usually like this :-( these days too!

[charliegolf]

Come on, CG... you were always "a bit special"..... :E
:p

You promised that would just be between us!:ok:

CG

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

I'm sure the fine folk over on ARRSE (https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/forums/the-naafi-bar.27/) won't have anything to say about this at all...

[sitigeltfel]

GSM? I haven't even got one of them, or a Jubilee or anything else. Then again, only thing I ever had fired at me was a mess bazooka - so I'm not complaining.

It was almost unusual to see anyone except the Regiment and SH force walking around in RAF blue and wearing medals in the 1980s, I would imagine the opposite is now true.

Very true. When I returned to the mainland in 1976 after a two year tour at Ulster Radar, and sporting the GSM (NI), more than once was I challenged and asked "Are you entitled to wear that?"

[Basil]

OBLIQUE ???
Now, UBIQUE I've heard of. (B gunners! ;))

[teeteringhead]

Now, UBIQUE I've heard of. Ah - Ubique (everywhere)

Some say it's the Gunners' motto, some Gunners say it's their Battle Honour (geddit)....

...... others say it is best translated as: "All over the place!"

[Edited to add:]

On reading the link there's a tie to match - oh joy! Although one doesn't often see "100% polyester" and "tasteful" in the same sentence ............

[Davef68]

Why, why why? <shakes head> - I can understand a market for a lapel badge or even a tie, but surely no ex-Serviceman would wear a pretendy medal?

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

.. but surely no ex-Serviceman would wear a pretendy medal?

I have seen many pretend medals alongside proper ones. Especially in November!

Aaron.

[Wensleydale]

Only this back in the early 70s....


https://vads.ac.uk/images/DCSC/medium/7895.jpg

[AR1]

Fascinated by the complimentary 'Mounting Service' though..

[salad-dodger]

RAF Regiment and Special Forces in the same sentence, brilliant!

S_D

[Pontius Navigator]

As an aside, I wonder just how many 'legitimate' Walt medals could be reasonably collected. I don't mean an indiscriminate collect everyone, but a set actually related to service where legitimate medals were never awarded.

I have in mind such as National Service, Cold War, and now this. To 'qualify' such a collection should not be mounted with genuine medals such as GSM, LSGM or MSM.

I acknowledge this would be pure Walt territory but legitimate if not mixed with authorized medals and limited to real service.

PS, discovered they do an RAF Squadron Medal. They missed a trick here as they could have marketed a bar for each squadron.
http://www.awardmedals.com/raf-squadron-medal-p-17834.html
They also do a Bomber Command one.

[mftx7jrn]

This is priceless!

[MPN11]

PN ... I did consider a personal set of commemoratives as you suggested, to at least have some to pass on to my son (and for home display only, in the cabinet with 3 generations of my antecedents real medals). Having discovered the potential cost, I moved swiftly on :)

[Basil]

Perhaps I should get one.
What's Latin for "To avoid getting a proper degree or working in a power station."
Wait! Just done it on G00g:
Ad vitare questus a propriis operantes gradus seu in potentia statione
Have to be a big medal! :}

[Always a Sapper]

Ah - Ubique (everywhere)

Some say it's the Gunners' motto, some Gunners say it's their Battle Honour (geddit)....

...... others say it is best translated as: "All over the place!"




gunners... Gunners...? Did someone say GUNNERS....! :=

Gentlemen, I humbly remind you of the Corp Of Royal Engineers... need I say anymore? :E

[charliegolf]

Why, why why? <shakes head> - I can understand a market for a lapel badge or even a tie, but surely no ex-Serviceman would wear a pretendy medal?

I've lost my GSM (TTN might recall me bothering him about it) and the powers that be will only provide a replacement if proof of theft or insurance loss can be shown. I'm getting nostalgic for such stuff in my dotage- so this outfit might not be such a laughing stock in my case. TTN, do they look like respectable copies?

CG

[Two's in]

RAF Regiment and Special Forces in the same sentence, brilliant!

S_D

Don't be too harsh on the Rocks, they are part of the SFSG...

The 1st Battalion Parachute Regiment (1 PARA), a company strength group of Royal Marines, and a contingent of RAF Regiment personnel form the UK's Special Forces Support Group (SFSG). The SFSG may provide extra firepower from land or air to fulfill their mission.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Forces_Support_Group

[Pontius Navigator]

MPN, my thoughts too.

CG, open market replacements come in two flavours. The genuine one will someone else's name and number. The replica certainly will look go but probably cast in pewter. I had a replica set of my grandfather's medals. The cost was around £300 for 6 replica and 4 genuine which I will have mounted in a frame. They look every bit as good as the real ones but are apparently too soft for swing mounting.

[Pontius Navigator]

Two's in, don't feed the troll.

[ian16th]

PS, discovered they do an RAF Squadron Medal. They missed a trick here as they could have marketed a bar for each squadron.
RAF Squadron Medal | Shop for Squadrons, Stations Medals (http://www.awardmedals.com/raf-squadron-medal-p-17834.html)
They also do a Bomber Command one.

Its not just Sqdn it is Sqdn and Station!

A pity that they all seem to have the same plain blue ribbon.
A row of 12 or so would be boring.

I wonder if they do a Tech Training Command one?

[Pontius Navigator]

Ian, that is why I said they missed a trick with bars.

[ian16th]

Ian, that is why I said they missed a trick with bars.
The ribbon would be too short! Especially if one used courses and Commands.

I could get; Yatesbury, Cosford and Locking with Tech Training Command.
Lindholme, Coningsby and Marham with Bomber Command
Uphaven and Dishforth with Transport Command then top it all off with Akrotiri and MEAF.

Maybe a compromise is a medal per Command with clasps for Stations/Sqdns

But the Command Medals would need different coloured ribbons, to look pretty.:rolleyes:

[Fareastdriver]

Hasn't this company got a contract with North Korea?

[Dougie M]

With a lot of modern conflicts the "Host nation" comes up with extra medals that can't be worn if there is a British medal awarded for the same event. The Rhodesia medal also came with Bob Mugabe's Zimbabwe independence medal. The Gulf War attracted the Saudi Kuwait liberation medal and the Kuwaiti Liberation medal. The NATO medals are allowed to be worn except where the Americans gave you an award and the NATO ISAF can't be worn if you have an Afghan medal from before 2016. All these go in the drawer labelled "On pain of death"

[salad-dodger]

Two's in, don't feed the troll.

I assume you are mean me PN? Do tell me what is wrong querying the rocks as part of Special Forces? In your own words....

S_D

[Basil]

gunners... Gunners...? Did someone say GUNNERS....! :=

Gentlemen, I humbly remind you of the Corp Of Royal Engineers... need I say anymore? :E
Ah, wait a mo; unlike the gunners, Ubique isn't actually on the badge it's in their motto.
I was REME attached RA. We just had REME on our badge and our motto was Arte Marte or something like that - skillfully getting into fights ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

Double the Malaysian Pingat Jasa was another where permission was granted. Qualification was more stringent than the MOD criteria.

[MPN11]

You would be surprised how many Bars can go on a ribbon .... scroll down for image.

Chief Technician John Terence Prictor(RAF) (http://www.queensmedal.net/files/prictor.htm)

He ended up with 13 Bars, but the regulations only allow him to wear 10 :)

[Two's in]

I was REME attached RA. We just had REME on our badge and our motto was Arte Marte or something like that - skillfully getting into fights

Basil, it was "Arte et Marte" - By skill and by fighting, or alternatively with the stable belt "twist to open".

[Pontius Navigator]

S-D, 2 Sqn.

[ian16th]

You would be surprised how many Bars can go on a ribbon .... scroll down for image.

Chief Technician John Terence Prictor(RAF) (http://www.queensmedal.net/files/prictor.htm)

He ended up with 13 Bars, but the regulations only allow him to wear 10 :)
Quite an amazing performance.

I wonder how much of his success is due to his skill in maintaining his weapons?

Is it still permissible in the 21st Century, to refer to him as a 'plumber'?

[Tankertrashnav]

TTN, do they look like respectable copies?

I wouldn't got to these people for a copy Charlie Golf. There is a very good firm of medallists I have used for replacement medals and I will PM you their name as I cant advertise them on here. The replacements they do would fool anybody at three paces. They are not "cast in pewter" but die struck in cupro-nickel and silver plated. If required they can be named for you in properly impressed naming (not engraved) - all in all almost as good as the real thing. I know a Battle of Britain veteran who has worn a set of their medals, including a DFC, on many occasions including in the presence of royalty (his own were stolen many years ago) and nobody has ever noticed the difference!

[charliegolf]

TTN: Received with thanks. :ok:

I will look into getting a replacement from them. I think PN was responding to my question with the OP's website in mind.

CG

[Pontius Navigator]

CG, actually not, but one on eBay who sourced and cast a rare medal and rarer clasp for me. Pewter is an easier medium for what would be a very low demand item but ideal for open display mounting where the original set is valued around £5k.

[charliegolf]

OK, got it ta. I've ordered one- see a good thread!

CG

[MPN11]

Quite an amazing performance.

I wonder how much of his success is due to his skill in maintaining his weapons?

Is it still permissible in the 21st Century, to refer to him as a 'plumber'?

John had several qualities, which helped. Physical strength, for a start: the weapon would hardly move when he fired. Then a lot of determination, and a LOT of practice.

A well-maintained and lightly tuned weapon certainly helped. I used to do light fettling for the RAF Service Pistol Team, and my Browning was certailnly very smooth to operate (and within EMER specs, before you ask!). It undoubtedly helped me win all the RAF and National SP trophies at one time or another. :cool:

[Tankertrashnav]

I'm at the other end of the skill set when it comes to pistol firing. Wasn't too bad with the Sterling and Bren when I was in the Regiment, but its difficult to miss with them! On the other hand no barn door had anything to fear when I was armed with my 9mm Browning!

Hope you are pleased with your replacement medal when it arrives, C-G.

[charliegolf]

Me too TTN, pm sent...

CG

[Basil]

no barn door had anything to fear when I was armed with my 9mm Browning!
Et moi aussi - WTF did that go? ;)

[fingureof8]

Talking of medals...

Does anyone know when the next Ops Honours Award list is due out?

[Always a Sapper]

Ah, wait a mo; unlike the gunners, Ubique isn't actually on the badge it's in their motto.
I was REME attached RA. We just had REME on our badge and our motto was Arte Marte or something like that - skillfully getting into fights ;)


'Ubique' is on the 9 Flame Grenade Badge worn by WO1 & Commissioned Ranks on the Beret and is also on the 9 Flame Grenade Collar Dog worn by all ranks on the No2 and Mess Dress.

Corp Motto is Ubique Quo Fas Et Gloria Ducunt ("Everywhere That Right And Glory Lead") Apparently the motto signifies that the Corps has seen action in all the major conflicts of the British Army and pretty much all of the minor ones to boot as well... One could also say it means they are always up for a scrap...... :E

Normal Cap badge has a Garter with the motto Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense ("Shamed be he who thinks evil of it")

We were regularly reminded of the Corp History and of course there's the RE Museum at Brompton full of Corp History things.... I do note that REME have now converted the Old Officers Mess at Lyneham into a Museum, not that it has much history in it yet... Lots of memories though ... :rolleyes:

[Dougie M]

Having spent 30 years as a Mess member at Lyneham 1976 -2006 I was asked by my son (22years in the R.E.M.E.) would I like to be shown around the museum. His travel arrangements have been directed.

[ericferret]

R.E.M.E "Rough Engineering Made Easy".

Before anybody bites me, I have the T shirt and I am entitled to wear it.
I wish I still had the version worn by the mechs at one army air corps squadron.
The globe on the R.E.M.E badge was replaced by a lemon!!!!!!
T shirt banned by the army air corps following a sense of humour failure.

[salad-dodger]

S-D, 2 Sqn.
Not sure that answers my question PN me old fella. From what I have read 2 Sqn are not regarded as SF. Any chance of a source for your assertion?

S-D

[Trim Stab]

R.E.M.E "Rough Engineering Made Easy".

Before anybody bites me, I have the T shirt and I am entitled to wear it.
I wish I still had the version worn by the mechs at one army air corps squadron.
The globe on the R.E.M.E badge was replaced by a lemon!!!!!!
T shirt banned by the army air corps following a sense of humour failure.

I thought it was "Ruin Everything Mechanical Eventually".

[Pontius Navigator]

S-D, moot.

[salad-dodger]

S-D, moot.
that will be a no then?

S-D

[sittingstress]

S-D, II Sqn RAF Regiment are not SF nor regarded as such. They do provide a number of officers and gunners to SFSG.

However I can reveal the real 'ard gits were 37 Sqn RAF Regiment (86-89) who kicked the collective arses of an RE Sqn in the famed Battle of the Bruggen Bop. This was part of the vicious turf war that developed when said RE Sqn were deployed permanently to Bruggen. You had to be there man!

PS We won the battle and the war and all was well.

:)

[Al R]

I remember said angst at the Crossbow very well, was it really thirty years ago? It involved on one occasion, two urinals ending up in the cavity above the suspended ceiling, something which amazed and impressed me in equal measure (for the ingenuity alone).

[Tankertrashnav]

I was a flight commander on 37 in from 65-67 and things had obviously changed between then and 86-89. In my time the Friday afternoon chamber music recitals were always well attended and the evening wine-tasting sessions were much appreciated ;)

Seriously, is there an actual definition of Special Forces? My blokes were pretty tough nuts - the big difference is none of them ever wrote books about their time in the Rocks or made a career out of being ex Special Forces.

[salad-dodger]

S-D, II Sqn RAF Regiment are not SF nor regarded as such. They do provide a number of officers and gunners to SFSG.
:)
Thanks sittingstress, that was my understanding too.

Great story about the Bruggen Bop. I remember hearing a story about something similar happening in the Penn Club (Akrotiri). Something to do with Para's v the resident Rock Sqn (34?).

S-D

[sittingstress]

I remember said angst at the Crossbow very well, was it really thirty years ago? It involved on one occasion, two urinals ending up in the cavity above the suspended ceiling, something which amazed and impressed me in equal measure (for the ingenuity alone).

Al it cannot be thirty years ago as I am only 23 :)

There was also the Night of the Stolen Tanks (CVRT) which owing to a neutral turn over the RHAG and a crushed ILS thingy turned the premier Tornado Wing into a useless collection of aircraft hidden in HAS. Not our finest moment!

It was particularly funny watching an RAFP Landrover, complete with flashing blue bulb, and the rotating light, attempting to chase a Spartan round the ring road and blocks.

I am actually chuckling now at the memories of the skullduggery that occurred during my time there.

TTN, HQ Flt were questioned by the Stn Feds regarding a night of ridiculousness and to a man we (ahem) THEY all answered as agreed, "I could hear it going on but there was nothing I could see as i was in the toilet at the time sitting down." Very good we thought. The cunning Feds in act of suprising professionalism collated our evidence and the message was passed back to the Sqn WO, "There are only 4 traps in the toilet, send them all for re-interviewing."

Halcyon days :)

Rocky Goodall was the Stn Cdr and we always got the impression that despite our daftness he liked "His" Rocks.

[Pontius Navigator]

S-D, point to you

[goudie]

The 'Rocks' at RAF Wahn were a fearsome lot and we sqdn chaps kept well out of their way. Thankfully they were banned from the Malcom Club and consigned to the NAAFI, where all the furniture was bolted to the floor! Mind you they did get our applause when they took over a block and refused to come out. When SPs raided it they turned the fire hoses on them

[Al R]

SS,

Meat Morris was driving the tank that night (C Flt - the flight that I was on), and Bernie Winters was commanding. They were both dressed in drag and decided to carve themselves a new crash gate, and as you say they took out the RHAG. The vehicle eventually stopped, and they were both arrested just over the border; Meathead claimed (not unreasonably you might think) that he was fed up and was simply trying to find the local Foreign Legion recruiting office. Apparently, and to this day I find it hard to believe, alcohol was a factor. He is still serving by the way, a Flight Sergeant (make your mistakes early!).

I was later posted back there early 90s, and the tour was great, but it never seemed to recapture the tension, dare I say it, of what was at stake in those 80's TACEVAL days. I was on 34 and then 15, and we were in and out of Bruggen all the time. Good times - we played hard but we worked very hard too. Akrotiri in the 80s was just as mad, I seem to recall one occasion when one of the OH pilots intervened, inexplicably, in a riot involving 34 and 2SG, and was hospitalised. All hell broke loose, the US ambassador pitched up from Nicosia. Tables were thumped.

[barnstormer1968]

Tankertrashnav

Yes, there very much are definitions as to what special forces are.
The British use Tier 1 and Tier 2 classifications. The SAS (regulars) and SBS (regulars) are tier 1. SAS, SAS signals and SBS reserves are tier 2 from memory. The SRS are tier 2 I think. The Royal marines, Paras and RAF regiment are not special forces. With regards to those three although 2 sqn RAF regiment have a good reputation its training regime and five miler of death fall way short of the other two units...............A five mile run just isn't in the same league as the thirty miler a commando would do!
While the pathfnders are 'ordinary forces' some people would consider them as tier 2 level. The same applies to soldiers who are patrols qualified*
Going back to SFSG, while it comes under the director special forces, only soldiers in the unit could be considered as tier 2 soldiers, soldiers in normal RM, Para or rockape units are very much ordinary forces.

*The British army has three arduous training courses:
Special forces selection
P company
Patrols course (it has a newer name, but is often called patrols course)

[The Oberon]

Tankertrashnav

Yes, there very much are definitions as to what special forces are.
The British use Tier 1 and Tier 2 classifications. The SAS (regulars) and SBS (regulars) are tier 1. SAS, SAS signals and SBS reserves are tier 2 from memory. The SRS are tier 2 I think. The Royal marines, Paras and RAF regiment are not special forces. With regards to those three although 2 sqn RAF regiment have a good reputation its training regime and five miler of death fall way short of the other two units...............A five mile run just isn't in the same league as the thirty miler a commando would do!
While the pathfnders are 'ordinary forces' some people would consider them as tier 2 level. The same applies to soldiers who are patrols qualified*
Going back to SFSG, while it comes under the director special forces, only soldiers in the unit could be considered as tier 2 soldiers, soldiers in normal RM, Para or rockape units are very much ordinary forces.

*The British army has three arduous training courses:
Special forces selection
P company
Patrols course (it has a newer name, but is often called patrols course)

I think the RM might have something to say about the AACC not being arduous, surely on a par with P company?

[salad-dodger]

barnstormer, thanks, I found that very useful too.

S-D

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks for the definition of special forces.

I used to have a shop selling militaria which attracted both serving and former military types who liked to chat. I could always tell the ones who hadn't been in special forces, they were the ones with big bellies who used to tap their noses, wink and tell you they weren't allowed to talk about what they had done in the forces!

[Two's in]

Thanks for the definition of special forces.

I used to have a shop selling militaria which attracted both serving and former military types who liked to chat. I could always tell the ones who hadn't been in special forces, they were the ones with big bellies who used to tap their noses, wink and tell you they weren't allowed to talk about what they had done in the forces!

TTN - Are you sure you're not confusing Nimrod AEOs?

[MPN11]

TTN ... I have met a few of those too. One giggles quietly inside. ;)

I have known a few real ones as well. They are also fairly easily identified.

[barnstormer1968]

The Oberon.
You mention the AACC. Thats a Royal Marines course (so Royal Navy) as you say, so NOT an army course like the three ARMY courses I mentioned deliberately in my post :)

[barnstormer1968]

Thanks for the definition of special forces.

I used to have a shop selling militaria which attracted both serving and former military types who liked to chat. I could always tell the ones who hadn't been in special forces, they were the ones with big bellies who used to tap their noses, wink and tell you they weren't allowed to talk about what they had done in the forces!

TTN
Maybe they had been cooks!
That would surely be something to keep quiet about :)

[cheekychimp]

barnstormer 1968, there is no such thing as the "5 miles of death" it was just the distance from where the trainees on one Field Gunner course were dropped off to the start line of a field firing exercise, FS Taylor was just trying to gee the men up before a hard day. The RAF Regiment have to do the same 8 mile CFT with the same weight and timings as Army infantry units. 2 Sqn complete the Pre Para selection course before parachute training, this course is broadly similar to Army P Coy and people who have done both say they are equally as hard.

[parabellum]

May have changed but there was a time when RM, Para and some units of RAF Regt were classified as 1st echelon strategic reserve, followed by, in the Army, other units that were 2nd echelon strategic reserve. 1st echelon were required to meet a higher standard of physical fitness than 2nd echelon who in turn had a higher standard than the rest.

[gijoe]

2 Sqn complete the Pre Para selection course before parachute training, this course is broadly similar to Army P Coy and people who have done both say they are equally as hard.

:ugh: Are you one of those that think the Earth is flat?

The courses are nothing like each other.

[The Oberon]

2 Sqdn. used to do P Coy. as pre para training until it became hard to get places. They then devised their own, there are differences, no milling for example, and AFAIK their distance marching is in webbing with no bergans. Still tough going though, P Coy isn't as tough as it used to be.

[cheekychimp]

GiJoe, I work with a lot of people who have done both courses, have you? I also know the Earth isn't flat, what was your point behind that comment? Are you one of those who believes the "shooting their own osprey, never leave the wire" rubbish about the RAF Regiment?

[barnstormer1968]

Cheekychimp.
Its hard to respond to your post. While you are correct that the RAF regiment do the same CFT as basic line infantry units (but also people like cooks, drivers, storemen and clerks) lets not forget that the CFT is just one test. A bog standard soldier should still be able to run 12 milers, and a bog standard booty will run a 30 miler.
I fully understand that many RAF regiment people still like the idea of the big three, but I have to say that in my experience an average gunner just isn't up to the level of an average infantry soldier.
It's great that you think pre para is equal to P company. I'd be interested to hear how many special forces types you know who say they found pre para harder than special forces selection. I've heard quite a few say that about P company. I think that when we get into a conversation about how gunners run the same test as a clerk in the Adjutant General's Corps we are on to a loser. :) :)

[cheekychimp]

Well, how to respond to that? In 29 years in the RAF Regt I've never heard anyone mention the "big 3" it's something that's been picked up by arrse and carried on. Factually, you are incorrect about the CFT (at least it was when I was attached to the Army a couple of years ago) there are 3 different weights for the trades, a AGC clerk doesn't carry as much as a Gunner. I would like to ask about your experience that says a RAF Regiment Gunner is not the equal of an average infantryman, during my time as a JTAC I worked with plenty of infantry regiments so I've seen both sides. Not for one minute am I suggesting that as a regiment we are the equals of the Paras, but 2 Sqn can certainly hold their own against them. I'll ask about your P Coy/Pre Para/Selection query.

[thunderbird7]

TTN - Are you sure you're not confusing Nimrod AEOs?

Nimrod AEOs were always easily confused.... :)

[barnstormer1968]

Cheekychimp.
We are rambling a bit between us. :)
Shall we try to pin some things down?
The thread started about an RAF regiment special forces medal. Some here wonder if the rocks are special forces. I say they arent, and the tier system goes with that. Later you mention 2 sqn and pre para. I'm more than happy to say 2 sqn are very very good, they are the creme of the creme but again, just like the paras they aren't special forces. While some aspects of P company and pre para are identical it could be said that the differences are what make P company not only the tougher course, but also seperates it from other army infantry courses (bergens instead of webbing, milling and tranasium etc).
While I dont think I've ever heard a para say rocks are their equals they are less scathing about 2 sqn, I'd also add that from my point of view I wouldnt see an advantage for pre para students to wear bergens on runs as they have a different role.
As for hearing the big three, I'm afraid I've heard it quite a bit. With your years of service (generalising here) you are too old to wan't to use the phrase, and with a specialist role you don't need to pretend anything.
With your experience of working with the army you may well have heard young soldiers say things that they may not say in front of their peers or to other soldiers.
I'm very much an armchair General these days and meet service personnel in that capacity. I only wish you could have been with me on a few occasions and heard various young rocks telling tales of daring do and the big three.
You would be cringing too :)*
Lets not pretend though that a rock JTAC is the same as an 18 year old gunner anymore than a time served chap from 4/73 is the same as an 18 year old artillery lad fresh from depot!

*I've met lots of army commandos and special types too, perhaps they just wore ordinary beret badges to blend in ;)

[Trim Stab]

Tankertrashnav

Yes, there very much are definitions as to what special forces are.
The British use Tier 1 and Tier 2 classifications. The SAS (regulars) and SBS (regulars) are tier 1. SAS, SAS signals and SBS reserves are tier 2 from memory. The SRS are tier 2 I think. The Royal marines, Paras and RAF regiment are not special forces. With regards to those three although 2 sqn RAF regiment have a good reputation its training regime and five miler of death fall way short of the other two units...............A five mile run just isn't in the same league as the thirty miler a commando would do!
While the pathfnders are 'ordinary forces' some people would consider them as tier 2 level. The same applies to soldiers who are patrols qualified*
Going back to SFSG, while it comes under the director special forces, only soldiers in the unit could be considered as tier 2 soldiers, soldiers in normal RM, Para or rockape units are very much ordinary forces.

*The British army has three arduous training courses:
Special forces selection
P company
Patrols course (it has a newer name, but is often called patrols course)

SF has never been defined by physical fitness.

The rumour in my day was that SF were defined as "strategic" troops, as opposed to "tactical" troops and so were controlled from higher level command.

Core tasks were long-range behind the lines intelligence gathering and strategic sabotage - a role which coincidentally required very levels of endurance and work load in arduous conditions over operations that might last several weeks or more. UKSF "Selection" thus evolved to select people who were capable of this role.

These strategic tasks are now carried out by drones. "Selection" for UKSF is thus not as so endurance oriented as it used to be, since the role of UKSF - though still strategic - has evolved.