Fighter Pilot Longevity ?

[Fonsini]

The risks of flying aside especially in the early jet days, I have noticed what I think may be a trend of jet pilots, particularly fighter pilots, to live very long lives after retirement. Obvious factors such as physical fitness and remaining very active obviously play a role, but I wondered if some of you ex-squadron pilots would mind doing a quick mental roll-call of how your mates fared in terms of general health and longevity after a career of FJ flying.

[ImageGear]

Pickled products tend to last longer :ok:

Imagegear

[Wander00]

But a rumour in the early days of AI radar was they tended to sire girls rather than boys

[safetypee]

AI, no; it was the 'g'.
Girl when on the squadron, boy on the OCU - restricted combat training.

[Pontius Navigator]

H2S, girls.
Between us we had 10 girls. Copilot subsequently had a boy but only did one tour. Pilot friend had one of each.

[Lima Juliet]

My wife had a little girl whilst I was serving as an instructor on a FJ OCU - lots of air combat training too! :ok:

As for longevity - this past 12 months there have been 4 funerals of FJ mates (past and present) that have been linked to low mental well-being. Also, quite a few seem to be copping the Big C at the moment as well... So I would suggest that you may need to rethink your hypothesis. :(

As for myself, when I grow up I'll let you know when I plan to die, but who knows I might be the first to live forwever! :cool:

LJ

[ShotOne]

I'd be interested to hear if the OP has any numbers to support that; the figures I've seen tend to suggest the opposite (lies, damn lies etc...). Statistically we ought to live longer than average since one has to be in perfect health to become a pilot in the first place.

[goudie]

Life insurance companies would have a good idea

[Fonsini]

I'd be interested to hear if the OP has any numbers to support that; the figures I've seen tend to suggest the opposite (lies, damn lies etc...). Statistically we ought to live longer than average since one has to be in perfect health to become a pilot in the first place.

I've got zero evidence, purely anecdotal. The suggestion has been made that those who served pre 1965 tended to fare better than those in the post 1965 jet era. Once again, too many factors to draw any conclusions, more for interest than serious statistical analysis.

[Wensleydale]

Why girls...?


The theory behind aircrew on a flying tour having more girls than boys is backed up by some facts - the sex of a child is determined by the sperm that fertilises the egg, and therefore if there is a hostile environment then a population survives better with a higher proportion of females than males. The female carrying sperm tend to handle a poor environment better - hence more girls are born in a hostile environment. There are many factors in determining the hostile environment which produces more surviving female than male sperm in aviation: low oxygen levels; low pressure; changes in G; more exposure to UV radiation at altitude; electromagnetic fields/radiation caused by increased electrical installations - etc etc.


Boys can be born, but girls are more likely. If you want a boy, then beware of coming home from a flying detachment where the second bang is the door closing behind you when you get home!


W. (Two daughters - both born on a flying tour).

[Bill Macgillivray]

Me too !! Both on jet tours.

[Herod]

I gather it applies to people like deep-sea divers and racing drivers too. Something to do with stress? Two girls, both while in a flying post (and don't tell me airline flying isn't stressful)

[ShotOne]

You can probably weigh your anecdotal evidence yourself, fonsini. Average uk male age at death is 81.5 (2012 fig); if your buddies are beating that figure, perhaps your theory holds water

[Pontius Navigator]

Fonsini, no, pre-1965 was the period when there was more flying at high and very high altitudes and still significant nuclear fission products from atmospheric testing. Post 1965 there was more use of low level training and less emphasis on very high level training.

[Fonsini]

Fonsini, no, pre-1965 was the period when there was more flying at high and very high altitudes and still significant nuclear fission products from atmospheric testing. Post 1965 there was more use of low level training and less emphasis on very high level training.

Thanks for the clarification Pontius, I confess I was thinking the opposite.

Interestingly the fighter pilots I know personally do all have daughters.

[Rossian]

....and I suspect it might be whoever pays our pensions. In 1965 the average length of time for a full career officer retiring at 55 to draw his pension was - THREE YEARS!!!
My just about to be my F-i-L showed me those figures from the (as it was then)
Officers' Pension Society.
At one of my resettlement financial seminars in about 1996/7 I asked the question again but no-one seemed to know the answer.

The Ancient Mariner

(F-i-L lived to 91,chuffed to bits that he'd beaten the actuarial odds)

[gums]

Salute!

I have to subscribe with the mortality tables that are based upon fighter pilots. Any clue where those might be?

If you can pass an astronaut physical for 30 or 40 years and routinely fly stressful maneuvers until you are 50 years old, then seems to me that you have good genes.

Glenn and Cernan just died, and Aldrin just made a low pass over launch pad 39 at the Cape in the back seat of an F-16.

I had to stop in mid life after 25 years of the astronaut physicals and then took the physicals until about 10 years ago. Other than corroded lungs due to smoking for over 50 years, things seem fine. A couple or three combat tours prolly added some stress besides being away from wife and kids, but whatthehell.

If I had the $$$ back then, I would have started a life insurance company for old fighter pilots. How many average bears can pass all those physicals and not have serious mental or physical problems for 20 or 30 years? Most of my classmates have been married to the same person for 40 or 50 years, and the ones that flew fighters have usually gone west due to weird cancers or such and not heart problems.

So I blame my existence on good genes, despite my poor health habits like drinking and smoking and chasing women.

Gums opines...

[CoodaShooda]

Just to skew the correlation between FJ ops and having daughters, I know of a RAAF boggy who sired two daughters before commencing his basic flying training.

Perhaps having the attributes to succeed in the FJ world includes a propensity for having daughters. :confused:

[BEagle]

"Fighter pilots always have daughters.....

....and I had yours last night!" :ok:

[John Eacott]

Dad was a night fighter pilot 1942: he'll be 95 in August. One of each so the daughter bit would have been fazed out during his time on shipping strikes.

As a helicopter driver I'm still current ATPL with Class 1 medical, it must be in the genes.

[West Coast]

Best 6 seconds of her life I'm sure....

[abgd]

LJ: I'm sorry to hear of your losses.

Back to the original question: I've wondered the same thing. I started practising medicine in 2009 and have looked after a number of WWII pilots, as well as a number of aircraft mechanics. I have also looked after a few people who served in various roles in the army, but it seems to me that the RAF personnel seemed to be disproportionately represented and to be in particularly good nick for their ages.

Impressions can mislead, but it would be worth looking into.

[Barksdale Boy]

I had the privilege yesterday of singing at the funeral of Flt Lt George Harris RAF (Ret) in Hong Kong Cathedral. He died last month aged 93. His son gave a moving eulogy. He had tried to enlist at the age of 16 in 1939 but was told to b----- off and come back in two years' time. He did and trained in Rhodesia before flying Mustangs in Burma. I met him here a couple of times and of course he had a fund of riveting stories. He had a son and a daughter and was cremated wearing his RAF pilot's tie.

[BEagle]

Best 6 seconds of her life I'm sure....

Don't judge others by your own standards, Westie!

[Pontius Navigator]

....and I suspect it might be whoever pays our pensions. In 1965 the average length of time for a full career officer retiring at 55 to draw his pension was - THREE YEARS!!!
My just about to be my F-i-L showed me those figures from the (as it was then)
Officers' Pension Society.
At one of my resettlement financial seminars in about 1996/7 I asked the question again but no-one seemed to know the answer.

The Ancient Mariner

(F-i-L lived to 91,chuffed to bits that he'd beaten the actuarial odds)
Seconded. One, Tommy Thompson, a single Nav died at 55 on retirement.

Another factor relevant in early 60s was survival. Our dep nav instructor to us all, to stunned silence, announced at 50% would be dead by 38. He was not far off. I read a novel about a USAF F100 wing in UK which suggested can equally high mortality among aircrew.

[Albert Driver]

To live a long life you have to have something to live a long life FOR.

90-year-old former aviators mostly have two things in common: they did all the wrong things as far as good health is concerned when they were young, but they settled into a meaningful, healthy and satisfying life in retirement. They found something other than flying to live for.

Not as easy, or as common, as it might seem.

[Herod]

I plan to live forever. So far, so good. ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

Albert, very true. Of my Rotary Club most of the members when I joined, and all older than me, are still there 20 years on with only two who have shuffled off, one very old and one a heavy smoker.

[Rick777]

I would think that the screening that military pilots have to pass just to be admitted to the club would put them among the healthiest people so it makes sense that on average they would stay healthy longer.

[Willard Whyte]

Boys can be born, but girls are more likely. If you want a boy, then beware of coming home from a flying detachment where the second bang is the door closing behind you when you get home!


W. (Two daughters - both born on a flying tour).

Two boys, sired in (almost) exactly those circumstances. Mind you, on the ME fleet I found going away for a couple of weeks of intense alcohol, nicotine, food, & gasoline fuelled fun, without 'adult' supervision, infinitely more relaxing than putting in face time on the sqn.

[nipva]

Personally I subscribe to the 'g' school of thought. On my first squadron (Lightnings) all new offspring were daughters but then a 'g' limit was imposed on the F6 fleet in an attempt to reduce fatigue index consumption and all subsequent issue on our squadron were sons, my first included. My second son 3 years later was born while I was on a ground tour thus furthering the 'g' theory.

[ShotOne]

The problem with answering the OP's question is that fighter pilots are a small statistical subset, even in a survey of RAF officers. My extensive research (5min on google!) threw up two surveys for pilots generally; an ALPA (US pilots union) which showed pilots dying three years younger than wider population. Confusingly, figures from a study of American Airlines pilots showed the opposite, with them living five years longer than average American white males.

[Al R]

....and I suspect it might be whoever pays our pensions. In 1965 the average length of time for a full career officer retiring at 55 to draw his pension was - THREE YEARS!!!
My just about to be my F-i-L showed me those figures from the (as it was then)
Officers' Pension Society.
At one of my resettlement financial seminars in about 1996/7 I asked the question again but no-one seemed to know the answer.

ONS did quite a bit of work on this, and the AFPS15 discussion document claimed that in general, those who were commissioned into the Armed Forces tended to live a little longer than civilian counterparts. Those who were enlisted lived a slightly shorter life.

• A UK male who was aged 60 in 2010 would generally have a life expectancy of 86 years and a similar female would have a life expectancy of 88 years.
• A retired male Officer who was aged 60 in 2010 would have a life expectancy of 90 and a similar female would have a life expectancy of 92.
• A retired male Other Rank who was aged 60 in 2010 would have a life expectancy of 87 and a similar female would have a life expectancy of 90.

The morale of the story is clear. I should have enlisted for only a couple of years, got commissioned and then identified as female.

[Melchett01]

ONS did quite a bit of work on this, and the AFPS15 discussion document claimed that in general, those who were commissioned into the Armed Forces tended to live a little longer than civilian counterparts. Those who were enlisted lived a slightly shorter life.

• A UK male who was aged 60 in 2010 would generally have a life expectancy of 86 years and a similar female would have a life expectancy of 88 years.
• A retired male Officer who was aged 60 in 2010 would have a life expectancy of 90 and a similar female would have a life expectancy of 92.
• A retired male Other Rank who was aged 60 in 2010 would have a life expectancy of 87 and a similar female would have a life expectancy of 90.

The morale of the story is clear. I should have enlisted for only a couple of years, got commissioned and then identified as female.

Al R beat me to it, but in a far more informative manner. Discussing this very thing last year with a chum in MB who had been talking to the Pensions lot and he said the same as Al, albeit with the extra caveat of Services thrown in. Retired RAF (officers) had the best chances for longevity with Army (ORs) in last with the RN bobbing around the middle. Probably obvious if you think about it really and assume that individuals actually make it to retirement.

In light of this discussion, when my Stn Cdr asked me what my career aspirations were a while back, told him to draw more in pension than I did in salary. He initially frowned, then you could see the cogs turn before he realised I might just be on to something. He still wouldn't let me put that and lottery winner down as aspirations on JPA though. No sense of humour some people 😁

But I do also wonder whether as hard as the military life can be sometimes it is also a lifestyle that leads to longevity? Relatively active, we are supposed to take care of ourselves - fitness tests, medicals etc and a bit of mental challenge trying to square circles, all the things that we read about as being good for warding off dementia, heart disease etc. Certainly a lot of my civilian family and friends of the same age but without the military lifestyle look far more harassed, haggard and overweight than I do.

Edited to add - the M/F question - does that also extend to associated Branches / Trades? I know a few Comms Engineers and ABMs and daughters seem to be the norm there too. My ex's father was a very senior Comms type, desperate for a son, over the years and tours he kept popping out daughters. Good for me at the time, but he did look harassed!!!

[Pom Pax]

May I suggest that g is not the cause of sex selection in offspring but rate of change of g. This may explain the motor sport connection especial considering the frequency of rate of change.

[abgd]

Presidents of the usa and other alpha males also have more girls. I don't know why, but I doubt it has to do with g-force.

[brakedwell]

I thought fighter pilots were all talk and no action :E

[Argonautical]

Pontious Navigator

I read a novel about a USAF F100 wing

Was the novel any good, and if so, could you give the title please?

But back to the thread. I read a report somewhere which said the most important thing regarding longevity for retired officers was if they got another job. Those that did, lived far longer than those who simply retired at 55 and did nothing afterwards.

[ShotOne]

If we're going to include WW2 pilots, as several have here, that can only be used to bump up the average by the statistical atrocity of ignoring the thousands who died tragically young in that conflict.

[dynamics]

It's just another perk of flying - Fly high, fly fast and live (a tiny bit) longer!

Albeit minimal, Einstein's twin paradox (time dilation) theories back you up (assuming you don't cock-up on the job, that is). :ok:

The case of the travelling twins ? Einstein Online (http://www.einstein-online.info/spotlights/Twins)

[Pontius Navigator]

Argonautical, see PM

[Onceapilot]

Certainly, the risks in RAF FJ flying during the 70's and 80's were considerable and will have made the average life expectancy pretty dismal. In the late 80's, I roughly calculated that the average RAF FJ squadron had been losing one Cat5 every 3 years and, half of those accidents involved crew deaths. :sad:
Also, I don't take much notice of the quoted survival rates. I personally knew quite a few mates who died in-service of medical conditions. One stat that I do not see is the survival stats of full flying career aircrew, not greasy pole types, the NCO Aircrew and Officers who hold operational flying appointments till age 55+. :D

OAP

[racedo]

Presidents of the usa .... also have more girls.

Think that is just one the perks of the job :E

[abgd]

It certainly seems so.

What proportion of jet fighter pilots went on to the airlines, I wonder? That seems a thoroughly unhealthy sedentary job.

The piston-engine pilots of wwii mostly moved on to other things and often didn't fly again.

[racedo]

But back to the thread. I read a report somewhere which said the most important thing regarding longevity for retired officers was if they got another job. Those that did, lived far longer than those who simply retired at 55 and did nothing afterwards.

I don't think it is just for retired officers, I think this is for retired people generally who have spent many years working.

I have 2 neighbours who fit this bill.................
one in early 80's, wear a colostomy bag, in good health, smokes but keeps active only only gave up manual paying work 2-3 years ago.
Other redunancy / retired 2-3 years ago, uses my recycle bin every 2 weeks and half to 3/4 fills with alcohol cans (plus what he puts in his own), not there a lot so don't care, doesn't read, just about active and has no purpose or feels like he has none, 20 plus years younger than other guy.

Sadly I think I know who will go first.

And No taking to neighbour with alcohol prob is not going to happen as those including family who have tried have been told to F OFF and mind own business.

[racedo]

Talked to an elderly priest I know today whose dad as an RAF Pilot, WW2 definitely and he left service at 55 and struggled to find any purpose to his life after that.

[Herod]

Took redundancy from the RAF at 30, medically retired from commercial flying at 56, now 70, and feel fitter and happier than I have ever done. It's all in the mind, then the body will follow.

[lsh]

Boys? Girls?

Temperature!

Sit with your b*lls constricted in a hi-temp environment = females!

lsh
:E

[Pontius Navigator]

A close friend of mine with an air service background, if you get my drift, was pensioned off by his company at age 64 as he had serious medical problems. His workers thought he wouldn't last a year. 12 years later he is still battling. He did have a charity job but his main raison d'etre is cruising and taking care of his spouse. He has not got long to go and is taking each month one at a time. His target is August.

Others think that drawing their pension fulfills life's dreams.

I am now older than my father and grandfather before me but need another 21 to pass my GGF but only 10 to beat his father. That is my goal :)

[MACH2NUMBER]

Had one of both. Son first, maybe I was was at my virile FJ peak. Flew FJ until 50, now 64, still no bad effects, but by the grace of god.
I remember at Gutersloh in about 1975, a number of people checking out a Lightning cockpit in white suits. After using a geiger counter, they jumped out very quickly.
Never had any results and assume it was the few luminescent switches.

[Pontius Navigator]

Boys? Girls?

Temperature!

Sit with your b*lls constricted in a hi-temp environment = females!

lsh
:E

Ah, so that is why that pilot had his pants off and stockinged legs on display. :)

[lsh]

Ah, so that is why that pilot had his pants off and stockinged legs on display. :)

Cool!

lsh
:E

[Al R]

I don't think it is just for retired officers, I think this is for retired people generally who have spent many years working.

I have 2 neighbours who fit this bill.................
one in early 80's, wear a colostomy bag, in good health, smokes but keeps active only only gave up manual paying work 2-3 years ago.
Other redunancy / retired 2-3 years ago, uses my recycle bin every 2 weeks and half to 3/4 fills with alcohol cans (plus what he puts in his own), not there a lot so don't care, doesn't read, just about active and has no purpose or feels like he has none, 20 plus years younger than other guy.

Sadly I think I know who will go first.

And No taking to neighbour with alcohol prob is not going to happen as those including family who have tried have been told to F OFF and mind own business.

Those who retire TO something, tend to have far more enjoyable retirements than those who retire from something.

[ShyTorque]

May I suggest that g is not the cause of sex selection in offspring but rate of change of g. This may explain the motor sport connection especial considering the frequency of rate of change.

Ahah, the old bouncing ball syndrome!

[Shaft109]

An observation from a lurker re overall health.

As was mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread in order to have robust health you need to be both Physically AND Mentally fit - combined that's what keeps you going.

When either of those are out of balance that's when you get ill.

How many very fit and healthy males are topping themselves currently in the UK from all walks of life? From the basics I know it currently exceeds Cancers and Road deaths for most age brackets.

[gums]

Was always a subscriber to the Scot kilt deal, being one.

So two fine young men now that are 50 years old, and both came about before I got into prolonged gee stuff. Was flying Deuces and VooDoos then. Even the later mudbeating tours were not that bad until getting to the Viper or my last 4 years. Whew!! 3 or 4 minutes pulling 4 or 5 gees about the same time. Then the harsh breaks with 8 or 9 gees for maybe ten seconds.

My vote for offspring is "technique"! Heh heh.

As far as longevity, my squad from USFA had 15 grads, and 11 got pilot assignments. Out of that, we had 8 make it to fighters or attacks jets, tho some had to go thru something else on the way. One had to become a Navy RIO.

We lost two of our pilots in 'nam, and two since then for medical reasons not involving the heart or being fat or..... So we are now here with 6 fighter pilots and another 4 pilots that flew heavies or helos. I would say we had pretty good genes and no small amount of aviating skill.

Gums sends..

[Tengah Type]

In the early 60s at Tengah all the Javelin pilots were bald and had daughters, this was rumoured
to be due to flying at high altitude a lot. On the Canberra fleet we flew down in the weeds and
as bachelors tried our best to have neither sons nor daughters.

[Pontius Navigator]

TT, but plenty of practice?

[Danny42C]

The preponderance of girl babies was noted when I was at Geilenkirchen in 1962 (Javelins and Canberras). One conjecture was that the high pitched howl of jet engines somehow affected the sperm of jet jockeys, by inhibiting production of the y-chromosome.

Mekchett01 (#34),
...Stn Cdr asked me what my career aspirations were a while back, told him to draw more in pension than I did in salary...I've achieved that, by a handsome margin - 23 years postwar service followed by 44 years of a pension of 42% of my last pay (inc Marriage Allowance). That was followed by 13½ years Civil Service and 30 years of their pension of 16% of final salary.

The country can't afford it - pensions will have to be cut, soon - but wait till I'm gone, please !

Danny.

[Fareastdriver]

Danny! You're back.