EK: Enough is Enough

[aussiefarmer]

Since EK recognised they have a problem in the way they deal with their flight and cabin crew a couple of years ago we have seen numerous changes that have now escalated to a new level of disrespect and madness. Here's a basic summary:

- Contractual violation of leave days. Every pilot is entitled to 42 days leave a year. I am still to meet anyone who has been allowed to take their contractual leave in full for the last 3 years.

- Discrimination in regards to age. The career of some of the most experienced FO in the company has been targeted by a discriminating and non-sense policy of 35 and 32 years of age for a chance at an upgrade, which has kick-started the lowest levels of morale ever seen in the airline.

- Commanders with over 8-10 years experience in the company are being demoted after having been flying into the most challenging destinations on the network without any issues citing concerns over their overall experience and capabilities.

- The contractual accommodation allowance has been denied to existing employees on company accommodation. Now pilots and their families have to live where the company decides without being given any alternatives. Pilot has no choice and no say whatsoever.

- EK is hiring experienced new entry pilots at a much higher pay scale and improved conditions. Furthermore, current EK pilots with equivalent or higher experience are being denied the same deal. A 4 year FO who quits and gets hired again would earn more money. ????

- A commuting freighter contract has been offered - after many requests from pilots to consider it. It offers absolutely no benefit to the employee and only targets to save money for EK. It does not allow in any way, other than in the short term, a pilot with a family to commute.

- Cabin Crew have all of the sudden lost a massive healthcare benefit and are liable for 30% of their medical expenses at hospitals and external clinics. This could mean bills of thousands of dirhams whilst no real alternative is being offered.

- In the meantime flying hours are as high as they have ever been with Captains flying anywhere in the region of 90-120 block hours per month and FO in the region of 75-90 hours per month.


Current situation breaches the limits of respect and employment ethics.

The question is... have we finally reached the point of no return? Anyone thinks it is reversible?
This is now officially a race to the bottom.

[Toledo]

In the words of John Henry, the owner of Liverpool FC, when Arsenal FC tried to steal Luis Suarez for £40,000,001:
"What are they smoking over there at the Emirates?"

[pfvspnf]

Rowdy times ahead...

[LivingINtheDream]

The higher salary offered to new joiners could easily fall under the discrimination header!

[Jetkopite]

Do you guys think this is some sick ploy to make people resign as they will be doing some major down sizing or something ?? Its the only reasoning I can see for that pathetic offer and further disrespect towards their pilots..

[Panther 88]

46000? That's somewhere around the basic for a 10yr captain. Oh believe me, they can find even more ways to squeeze the lemon. The least of which would be a real cut in money paid out. We'll let them figure out for themselves other lemon squeezing.

[777-200LR]

Do you guys think this is some sick ploy to make people resign as they will be doing some major down sizing or something ?? Its the only reasoning I can see for that pathetic offer and further disrespect towards their pilots..

I've thought of that many times in the past few years!

[desertbob]

there is no other explanation. we've been belittled and humiliated at every turn

- no pay rise for 5 yrs (only 15% for new joiners?!)
- trainer pay cut 50%
- hours gone from 75 to 125
- days off gone from 15 to 7
- leave gone from 42 to forced leave of 7
- just culture to punitive
- freighter contract for imbeciles

experience doesn't count for anything till the next smoldering hole ...

[jack schidt]

What really gets me is why sooo many people here (these forums), moan about what was already being reported (right here) almost a decade ago as the airline started to decline.

You chose to come, you were warned, you need to live by the hand you dealt yourself.

Don't get me wrong, I too would love more money, fewer hours and time at home. The changes you call for were discussed years ago, things aren't going to change, never have and most likely never will. Moaning about the worsening T&Cs here will be pointless. Your call will not be heard, your anger and or pain will be noted and laughed at by those you seek to discredit.

After almost 2 decades in the desert, let me tell you that you have 2 choices. If you haven't worked out what your choices are then you shouldn't be flying aeroplanes here. If you do know what choices are available to you, chose one and live with it.

Being here on Prune moaning is honestly lowering the experience of pilots coming to the desert AND making yours and my job harder. Harder for the company AND consequently harder for you.

I am not writing here to defend the company, but I am writing to state that all the moaning has been echoing around the Prune vault for years, it's pointless repeated moaning.

Rather than discredit the company about how bad they are doing, try to create and comment in threads about how they can be more positive. Simply stating money, less hours is about as ineffective as is current policy and action to stop the rot.

Jack

[Buford]

I think they're restructuring for a potential merger. As far as they're concerned the more that leave voluntarily the better.

[Panther 88]

I think they're restructuring for a potential merger. As far as they're concerned the more that leave voluntarily the better.

Does that mean if there is a merger, we won't be able to discuss the airline on the Prune anymore like our buds down the road can't do? That will solve all their problems of retention and recruitment. Remember, it's our fault for the lack of experienced candidates.

There has to be some sanity to their madness at the upper atmosphere at the bouncy castle. Can they really be that tone deaf to see what the conditions are on the "shop floor"?

But really, the Jack S. is correct. Was no one listening or paying attention? From my perspective, things went down the crapper in early 2009. I wonder how many joiners we have had since then? Eight years we have been flying at least 90 hours with relatively little increase in the pay package. Those who have stayed, have done so for their own personal reasons (like me). But there are a lot of new names on here that are now opening their eyes. There have been relatively few alternatives from 2009 until the last year or two for individuals to leave. Now, not so much? Just a few thoughts. My days are numbered here..........and they have been informed.

[fatbus]

I agree with Jack. New hires think it's all new stuff happening ,but it's all old.

Merger!!! Look out, no one is safe . In the ME money talks. There could be massive redundancies.

Enjoy the ride !

[positive stability]

It’s been just under two years since I left EK and I was on a stopover catching up with friends still stuck there this week. What is extremely sad to see is how much it has changed in the relatively short time I’ve been gone and that the management, in their apparent wisdom, still seem hell bent on finding new ways of alienating their employees.

One ex colleague of the EK grinding machine who is about to join us was told in his exit interview by his CP that the cause of his workload and the lack of pilots joining was down to message boards of which pprune was highlighted. The CP that briefly said goodbye to me didn’t tell me this but he had already told me previously that I had a choice which I duly exercised.

Now I’m sitting on the outside and hearing of the antics going on this week, I thought I’d give a little external perspective on what I feel is a purely management induced problem regarding recruitment.

The crewing crises really got going due to the financial crisis post 2008. I surmise that AAR via TCAS (I’m sure sanctioned by STC) issued that email saying due to the current financial situation the pilots must become more productive for no change in remuneration, to help the company in its hour of need. Of course we all knew that this was another disingenuous way of saying we want more productivity for free and we have no intention of returning it because we will make an even bigger profit and as management get even bigger bonuses, which they duly did. The flight time limitations were set as targets and these could be exceeded using the “F” word “factoring.” But the “F” word effect upon the crew was “fatigue,” however this latter word is not in the EK management dictionary of words so it doesn’t exist.

In order to enhance the productivity the new rostering system was also introduced. The lead up by management at wash-ups was this was a life changing event and not to be so negative. It was a life changing event and as a result, many hundreds of experienced pilots have left since. The secretive company implemented rules upon rules upon the rules and the many other limitations had made this new system a nightmare for crew. A simple swap for a subtle lifestyle change was now severely thwarted by some unknown senseless rule, one of many invented to prevent any quality of life being achieved.

On top of this there have been many other mindless rules and processes implemented even in the time I’ve been out of place, but no point in highlighting them here as they’ve all been spoken of before.

So it seems all the management are now whining that PPRune and the likes are the cause of the recruitment problem, so here is the crux of the recruitment problem. When you (management) had the chance to fix the crew ratio, you got greedy and didn’t! You managed by presuming that if you ran X crew ratio and lowered the leave then you would have enough, ops normal every year, push those limits, grind that crew. People vented their frustration here because you simply could not be trusted anymore. You didn’t blatantly lie but you have been disingenuous with the truth.

The mass exodus of experienced pilots with such negative stories of how you treat your staff has ensured that PPRune is now not your problem.The industry is small relative to other industries. My current company has 4 ex EK employees and any of the younger guys who think they want to fall for all your PR spin on how wonderful it is in DXB/EK need only need to talk to any of the 4 ex EK lads and consequently they make their own opinion, none have left. My previous employer to EK has not had any go to EK for over three years (pre 2008 there were around 12 per year). Once again word of mouth and speaking to ex EK employees or even current employees is sufficient to give any sane pilot a first-hand account of the working reality and practices of this company :ugh:

I do feel for my friend’s and the many other decent colleagues I used to work with who are still trapped there. The erosion of all facets of the remuneration package coupled with the rate of inflation simply means that the majority are looking elsewhere. They will take their experience with them and pass that on as well in their new company. And just to think, 10 years ago there were so many pilots wanting to join what was a reputable company and now, today they are scraping the barrel doing roadshows, even asking current employees to tell a friend. Perhaps that’s the problem then, employees should be banned from telling a friend?

[Visual Procedures]

Why isn't there a like button?

[EK_Bus Driver]

It’s been just under two years since I left EK and I was on a stopover catching up with friends still stuck there this week. What is extremely sad to see is how much it has changed in the relatively short time I’ve been gone and that the management, in their apparent wisdom, still seem hell bent on finding new ways of alienating their employees.

One ex colleague of the EK grinding machine who is about to join us was told in his exit interview by his CP that the cause of his workload and the lack of pilots joining was down to message boards of which pprune was highlighted. The CP that briefly said goodbye to me didn’t tell me this but he had already told me previously that I had a choice which I duly exercised.

Now I’m sitting on the outside and hearing of the antics going on this week, I thought I’d give a little external perspective on what I feel is a purely management induced problem regarding recruitment.

The crewing crises really got going due to the financial crisis post 2008. I surmise that AAR via TCAS (I’m sure sanctioned by STC) issued that email saying due to the current financial situation the pilots must become more productive for no change in remuneration, to help the company in its hour of need. Of course we all knew that this was another disingenuous way of saying we want more productivity for free and we have no intention of returning it because we will make an even bigger profit and as management get even bigger bonuses, which they duly did. The flight time limitations were set as targets and these could be exceeded using the “F” word “factoring.” But the “F” word effect upon the crew was “fatigue,” however this latter word is not in the EK management dictionary of words so it doesn’t exist.

In order to enhance the productivity the new rostering system was also introduced. The lead up by management at wash-ups was this was a life changing event and not to be so negative. It was a life changing event and as a result, many hundreds of experienced pilots have left since. The secretive company implemented rules upon rules upon the rules and the many other limitations had made this new system a nightmare for crew. A simple swap for a subtle lifestyle change was now severely thwarted by some unknown senseless rule, one of many invented to prevent any quality of life being achieved.

On top of this there have been many other mindless rules and processes implemented even in the time I’ve been out of place, but no point in highlighting them here as they’ve all been spoken of before.

So it seems all the management are now whining that PPRune and the likes are the cause of the recruitment problem, so here is the crux of the recruitment problem. When you (management) had the chance to fix the crew ratio, you got greedy and didn’t! You managed by presuming that if you ran X crew ratio and lowered the leave then you would have enough, ops normal every year, push those limits, grind that crew. People vented their frustration here because you simply could not be trusted anymore. You didn’t blatantly lie but you have been disingenuous with the truth.

The mass exodus of experienced pilots with such negative stories of how you treat your staff has ensured that PPRune is now not your problem.The industry is small relative to other industries. My current company has 4 ex EK employees and any of the younger guys who think they want to fall for all your PR spin on how wonderful it is in DXB/EK need only need to talk to any of the 4 ex EK lads and consequently they make their own opinion, none have left. My previous employer to EK has not had any go to EK for over three years (pre 2008 there were around 12 per year). Once again word of mouth and speaking to ex EK employees or even current employees is sufficient to give any sane pilot a first-hand account of the working reality and practices of this company :ugh:

I do feel for my friend’s and the many other decent colleagues I used to work with who are still trapped there. The erosion of all facets of the remuneration package coupled with the rate of inflation simply means that the majority are looking elsewhere. They will take their experience with them and pass that on as well in their new company. And just to think, 10 years ago there were so many pilots wanting to join what was a reputable company and now, today they are scraping the barrel doing roadshows, even asking current employees to tell a friend. Perhaps that’s the problem then, employees should be banned from telling a friend?


Very well written PS.

Accurate, honest, succinct and eloquently crafted. I cannot add anything to your post.

I have been out of EK for 5 years now, to all my former colleagues I can attest that there is life after EK and it is good. I do not miss the rostering, lack of leave, fatigue and Management spin one bit!

They have brought it upon themselves!

[highfive]

I attended the roadshows last year. I thought the salary had increased. Not so. The DEC 46000 aed quoted as salary includes per diems for 90 block hours. The " basic salary" is somewhat less , and as an average you will not be paid 46000 due leave , sim etc.

They also stated only 25 days annual leave could be booked. The allocation of the remaining 14 days remained rather vague.

Many pilots hate their management,enjoy flying. EK pilots seem to have lost the love of flying , full stop.

[kcar]

..
They also stated only 25 days annual leave could be booked. The allocation of the remaining 14 days remained rather vague.

Many pilots hate their management,enjoy flying. EK pilots seem to have lost the love of flying , full stop.Last year I had a grand total of 30 days of leave, all assigned by the company as they saw fit. This year, grand total of 30 again..
Complained to my immediate manager asking where's my contractual 42 days of leave?
The response: "You've got 30 days which is what we're obligated to give you according to UAE labour law"
What about the ever growing leave bank?
"You can always sell your days"

[trimotor]

Dear EK Management,

As mentioned above, Pprune is not your biggest problem. The posters here are only telling the truth, as they see it. You've made the truth: cope with it.

Your biggest problem is also potentially your biggest asset: your staff. Have them on-side and they are your biggest advertisement, both for the brand and recruitment. Get them off-side and you will reap the whirlwind...just like is happening now.

Was speaking to a senior manager (but clearly not senior enough) in the flight ops world the other day...I've never seen him so flat. I got the feeling they are out of ideas or the ability to implement the ideas they have and are just resigned to riding the juggernaut into the ground.

The proof is the 300-400 flights/month that are not crewed, the attrition rate and the inability to recruit...why is this all so? You know why. Why is this the best option?

TM

[1201alarm]

I can positively confirm that EK's reputation as an employer with regards to dealing with crews and the lack of respect for a contract is a barrier in recruiting people from my flying environment.

The only way out as I see it is to introduce some massive overtime payment. That would mean basic salary covers some 70h a month, and every hour above it is paid with at least 150% of the hourly rate until 70h, and from 80h on it should be 200%.

This would show a clear commitment from the company to bring workload levels down, by putting this into contract (not into some unilaterally changeable conditions of service).

Additional things would be holiday days give hours credit, sim, groundschool etc give hours credit, etc. Actually all rather standard things.

May be some sort of joining bonus is also needed.

[BigGeordie]

They don't want to bring the hours down, they are quite happy for us to fly 95 hours a month. The problem is even 95 hours a month isn't enough to crew all the flights at the moment.

Make no mistake, if you join EK 95 hours a month is what you can expect to fly.

[SMT Member]

I was recently contacted by EK for a management position. Was I interested, they asked. Not really would have been the honest answer, but I told them 'sure, what are you offering'. From these pages I have an idea what a skipper makes at EK, and whilst I certainly wouldn't compare a cushy paper-pusher 9-5 job wiht that of an EK skipper, at least it would give me an idea how far I could push it.

Their offer came back at roughly 65% the salary of a skipper, annual trip home in cattle class, no provident (pension) fund and a smaller housing allowance. I countered that with a demand for 1.5 x the salary of a skipper, equal housing allowance, 1. class travel and a pension scheme.

Didn't get the job, fancy that!

[The Turtle]

Gents listen to the "old hands" who have been here +10yrs, they can give you an accurate assessment of the way things work here

MM and his trainers have done an excellent job in demonstrating to the co that given the intake of experience....rj...tp...cadet....they can and will fill the seats

so don't expect big raises and benefits, or any return to a reasonable roster

[felixthecat]

How long before we actually do start taking self sponsored cadets from the various schools worldwide? CPL/IR 200hr total time.....

[ruserious]

and how much will they charge them for the privilege?

[aussiefarmer]

How long before we actually do start taking self sponsored cadets from the various schools worldwide? CPL/IR 200hr total time.....

Qatar does it. However, it is hard to imagine anyone signing as a cadet who can potentially be on the line at age 20, looking at 15 years to upgrade due to the command age restrictions. Maybe the would need to implement a 14 year bond??? :ugh:

As the thread starter I would like to steer the discussion again towards... is this downward trend reversible? I am deeply pessimistic about it these days but this is what I think should be fixed:

- EK needs to start to respect the contract of employment. Denying opt-out allowance and not granting 42 days of leave to each pilot each year are blatant contractual breaches that only make the company look like an unreliable employer who will back stab you the moment they have a chance.

- EK needs to start respecting their flight and cabin crew. 24/7 essential employee services, for example. Most employees are shift workers, doesn't make sense having HR services working on reduced hours 5 days a week. Respect means to value employees (minimum) days off for bureaucratic stuff such as visa renewals, medicals, distance learning etc. All those should be rostered accordingly. Like in any decent outfit.

- EK needs to start valuing their people. The loss of experience in both flightdeck and cabin this days is an irreparable mistake. This airline used to have some of the most proficient and experienced crew in the industry. Recruiting new joiners at better conditions than current equally experienced employees is an insult.

- EK needs to listen. I had hope listening to Mueller's interviews when he was talking about the importance of listening to every single employee in the organization. This remains to be seen. Nobody has asked me my opinion and I'm too scared to share it unless behind anonymity. I have shared my concerns in previous forums (which seem to have dissappear now) but answers were always "it is above our pay grade", "this comes from above".

- EK needs a change of culture. And that's probably the hardest part. At the moment is run like a mediocre organization from the 1970s in terms of organizational culture.

I'm not saying is gonna happen, but the recipe is there in front of their eyes. Seems like the real problem is that whilst being aware of it, they just don't wanna do it.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Qatar does it. However, it is hard to imagine anyone signing as a cadet who can potentially be on the line at age 20, looking at 15 years to upgrade due to the command age restrictions. Maybe the would need to implement a 14 year bond??? :ugh:

As the thread starter I would like to steer the discussion again towards... is this downward trend reversible? I am deeply pessimistic about it these days but this is what I think should be fixed:

- EK needs to start to respect the contract of employment. Denying opt-out allowance and not granting 42 days of leave to each pilot each year are blatant contractual breaches that only make the company look like an unreliable employer who will back stab you the moment they have a chance.

- EK needs to start respecting their flight and cabin crew. 24/7 essential employee services, for example. Most employees are shift workers, doesn't make sense having HR services working on reduced hours 5 days a week. Respect means to value employees (minimum) days off for bureaucratic stuff such as visa renewals, medicals, distance learning etc. All those should be rostered accordingly. Like in any decent outfit.

- EK needs to start valuing their people. The loss of experience in both flightdeck and cabin this days is an irreparable mistake. This airline used to have some of the most proficient and experienced crew in the industry. Recruiting new joiners at better conditions than current equally experienced employees is an insult.

- EK needs to listen. I had hope listening to Mueller's interviews when he was talking about the importance of listening to every single employee in the organization. This remains to be seen. Nobody has asked me my opinion and I'm too scared to share it unless behind anonymity. I have shared my concerns in previous forums (which seem to have dissappear now) but answers were always "it is above our pay grade", "this comes from above".

- EK needs a change of culture. And that's probably the hardest part. At the moment is run like a mediocre organization from the 1970s in terms of organizational culture.

I'm not saying is gonna happen, but the recipe is there in front of their eyes. Seems like the real problem is that whilst being aware of it, they just don't wanna do it.

I wrote to CM a month or so ago, highlighting my concerns and grievances. I was open minded about whether or not I could expect a reply. Within 48 hours he responded and went as far as you could reasonably expect anyone in his position to go, to agreeing 100% with every issue I raised.

The most telling part of his reply though was where he stated that he didn't and couldn't get involved with the day to day running of the airline but would run my concerns by the appropriate VPs - along with the concerns of many others from flight ops who had written to him or even had a one on one meeting with him.

What this leads me to believe is that CM is capable of turning us around but is probably going to be denied the opportunity. I find this extremely worrying for the short - medium term for both EK and its employees.

[glofish]

Gentlemen

EK is dug in so deep in their own self imposed mess and hyped myths of greatness, that even though each and every d!ckhe@d on the ninth floor knows exactly what is wrong and what should be done, not one of them can and is willing to do anything. It has been supported too long by all these individuals, that it would mean admittance of failure, equivalent to instant dismissal and being escorted out of the cosy office just short of being tared and feathered.

They have to continue to play the disgusting game until some big shot gets scarified and all the others can sigh in relief and declare under tears that they wanted to change the mess all along, but could not because .... blah, blah, blah ...

Who wants to be that scapegoat? Who could it be? Who would fire him and admit his collaboration to a certain degree by having him appointed?

Not one of them.

Until there is an earthquake-like change at EK i would seriously discourage anybody to pick up a job here. Because there is almost 0 chance that anything can change in the actual condition. No pay increase, no reduction in hours, not more leave, no admittance of any shortcoming. And for the near future i can't see any seismic activity, the situation is still not serious enough.

[InnocentBystander]

Your biggest problem is also potentially your biggest asset: your staff. Have them on-side and they are your biggest advertisement, both for the brand and recruitment. Get them off-side and you will reap the whirlwind...just like is happening now.


I will never forget my final cabin crew briefing before my last flight some time in the middle of last year, which happened to be a ULR. Having just told them that fact everyone broke out in applause and congratulated me on this and later during the flight almost everyone came by and said that they themselves can't wait to finally get out too. Some were held back by debt, others by having to support their families. But everyone wanted out of the slave ship, purser included.

My fellow FD colleagues of course had also earlier said that every single one of them was actively working on an exit strategy.

A sentiment like this in your employees is almost impossible to turn around.

[pfvspnf]

I wonder if it's the company or dubai you have had enough of? Nothing like a trip to deira at 3 am can't solve :/

[olster]

I left EK last year to join a reasonably well known uk airline predominantly based oop North. A couple of anecdotes: last year at relatively short notice I was offered a ticket for a rugby international. The roster was in process so it was too late to bid on - line. Bearing in mind I was told in Emirates that any direct verbal contact with rostering would lead to a written warning. So with slight trepidation I phoned my new rostering number to ask if I could have the day off and preferably the next to deal with the subsequent hangover. I was obviously ultra polite and the girl on the other end of the phone was very friendly but could not promise anything at that stage. The upshot: 5 days off! With the middle day being the rugby day and Scotland even managed to beat Argentina.

Second anecdote: recently did a sim with some prep required ( GNSS approaches). There had been an on line study pack. The instructor enquired whether I had a day rostered for self - study. Answer: no. Much consternation. Instructor contacted rostering and a day off given back. Conclusion: nowhere is perfect but I have found a company that deals in a common sense way with life issues. A very refreshing contrast to the lunacy and alice in wonderland logic I found in EK. Just sayin' folks.

[SOPS]

Have not posted here for a long time. But I will put this in. My last airline before EK, crewing was ' open ' to talk to. They were in the same room as the room where you signed on and off. You could talk to them face to face, and we all made 'deals', you help me, I will help you. I got a big shock when I went to EK, and you could not really talk to crewing. They only want to talk to you, when they want your help, not the other way around. Also, our medicals and self study days were rostered days off. And when you took leave, your normal days off were included in the roster of leave. By that I mean, we had 3 days off a week guaranteed. So a annual leave week would be 4 days leave plus 3 days off. And we got more than 42 days a year.

[GoreTex]

I will never forget my final cabin crew briefing before my last flight some time in the middle of last year, which happened to be a ULR. Having just told them that fact everyone broke out in applause and congratulated me on this and later during the flight almost everyone came by and said that they themselves can't wait to finally get out too. Some were held back by debt, others by having to support their families. But everyone wanted out of the slave ship, purser included.

My fellow FD colleagues of course had also earlier said that every single one of them was actively working on an exit strategy.

A sentiment like this in your employees is almost impossible to turn around.

had the same experience, they all were so happy for me and couldn't wait to get out themselves, that shows it all. I never worked for such a sad company, unreal how they ruined a good company, STC should be jailed because he ruined a cash cow.

[QNHbox]

Talk to ANYBODY, any pilot or cabin crew. 9 out of 10 are leaving or thinking about how to get out of here. But do not worry, this is just an Airline. Who needs them anyway?

[Rabbitwear]

Still no Basings , such a simple fix !

[glofish]

The fish begins to stink from its hugely blown up overhead

[5star]

a6 echo ....I see...
Looking at your name, it would suggest you are on the 380....
I get your point. It s indeed like you guys work at another airline... less to bitch about and I have MANY friends on the 380 who even commute. Easy with minimum 15 days off or more...
I can tell you that on the Boeing we do the same number of ULRs as you do but we get shafted with loads of extra turns and extrra subcontinent layovers to fill up our rosters.
Some sympathy for your fellow colleagues...
caveat et emperor...thats what they are trying to do.
Hope it stays like this for you. Things might change however on very short notice...

[The Outlaw]

5 star,

It was very much the same line of BS the 777 guys were sending out 7 years ago when the 330/340 guys had 8 days off per month and 92 hours every month, 60 in the months when you had 14 days leave. As the 777 took all the better trips there remained very little decent flying and most of it at night. 92 hours on the 330 was MUCH harder than 105 on the 777. Many of the 380 guys are seeing 10 days off with 95-100 hours rosters...its bad on both fleets with the 777 slightly in the lead.

I'm not sure where A6... gets off with the statement he is making. 95 hour rosters are spent in the tube, at altitude, getting radiated, eating crap food at the wrong time of day, trying to "rest" in a confined box of the size that your wine fridge came in.

There is a lot of talk that 250 (captains so the story goes) will be rewarded with a move to the 777 (because it is just that much better) and I'm sure the "expression of interest" list has countless 1000's of names of pilots wanting to flee the 380.

All that being said, watch this space for comments regarding the changing of the guard, 737, a320, a350 and who knows...maybe even a new call sign and HQ in a different city

[5star]

Outlaw. Not true....
Unless you are in training on the 380, any guy (left or right seat) on the 380 has MINUMUM 14 days or more OFF. Fact! Simply run *crew and check for yourself.
Ever since they increased the monthly hours in 2009, on the tractor I never had more than 11-12 off on the Boeing. NEVER ever.
You compare us with the 340/330 fleet a while back... Is not comparable! Now we do ULRs with the minimum 2 days off before+after and, on top of that, we do all the rest as well. Also different now is that fleet changed multiple ( I count >15) subcontinent destinations from TA to layover resulting in ever less time @home or days off. Another fact.

[Mach.888]

Outlaw. Not true....
Unless you are in training on the 380, any guy (left or right seat) on the 380 has MINUMUM 14 days or more OFF. Fact! Simply run *crew and check for yourself.
Ever since they increased the monthly hours in 2009, on the tractor I never had more than 11-12 off on the Boeing. NEVER ever.
You compare us with the 340/330 fleet a while back... Is not comparable! Now we do ULRs with the minimum 2 days off before+after and, on top of that, we do all the rest as well. Also different now is that fleet changed multiple ( I count >15) subcontinent destinations from TA to layover resulting in ever less time @home or days off. Another fact.
I do feel for you 777 guys since I too had insane rosters on the 330/340 and I remembered how I felt.
But please don't try to tell us that it's so much harder for you now then it was for us.
Stick to that and all the sympathys are gone.

[felixthecat]

Guys, we are all being pushed above and beyond, lets not turn fleet on fleet....we all need a break.

[nicosnoko]

5 Star... not true...

A380 LHS
Usually the max is 13 days off, in February I had 8 Days off...
So no I do not have a minimum of 14 days off every month or at least not anymore...

[Schnowzer]

Unless you are in training on the 380, any guy (left or right seat) on the 380 has MINUMUM 14 days or more OFF. Fact! Simply run *crew and check for yourself.

Fact - I've got 11 this month including 2 ULRs, 2 trips to China, two to Europe, a sim and standbys!

So unless rest days count as days off; 5star who do I write to, to get my guaranteed minimum 14+ days off back from?

[pumpkin]

Fact - I've got 11 this month including 2 ULRs, 2 trips to China, two to Europe, a sim and standbys!

So unless rest days count as days off; 5star who do I write to, to get my guaranteed minimum 14+ days off back from?

380 LHS : 8 days last month, 10 the month before. I think 5star is thinking f.o's... or maybe locals.. but certainly not me or any of my neighbours. And yes the 330/340 in the last few years before I left it was just as bad as the 777 now. Back then we at least had days off for "training" but other than that, same same. Always thought it was distasteful that for the first 2/3 of my career at EK, my Boeing neighbours lived quite the life,worked less hours and saw their wives, kids, had fun and saw actual daylight - but what was more distasteful is that many took every opportunity to gloat to all of us stuck on the mixed fleet, about how much better their lives were. Now we are all in the sh*t. At least for now I can avoid the subcontinent crap and for that I am thankful. But still exhausted. Keep discovering. Stick together and stop infighting like teenage girls. Doesn't help our cause.

[felixthecat]

Stick together and stop infighting like teenage girls. Doesn't help our cause.
.....Exactly!

[Dubaian]

Disclaimer - I'm not in airline or in fact any other employ these days.

May I remind you of a well used 'local' saying.

"Same, same ...... but different" :rolleyes::D:rolleyes:

[north flyer]

http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2017/04/11/american-airlines-pilots-turn-up-heat-in-fight-for.html?ana=yahoo&yptr=yahoo

Have a look at the Chart of the Pay Rates.

This is what we should be fighting for, not each other.

[WB1900]

A6EEU

I am happy for u having good roasters.
but before u brag how good the 380 roasters are let me say somethings:
years ago all the nasty roasters had been distributed exclusivly to the 330/340 guys. Now things have changed and the 777 are the poor buggers running those roaster.
Further to say that u are obviously a direct rentry FO on the 380 who gets his big career step at roughly 4 years EK, while lots of ex330/340 FOs are shafted around there stick time, since the 330/340 stick time counts only half. Also the COM on 380 tend to disagree with u having good roasters as they are are flying equaly 100+ hours a month just a bit easier than the 777 guys.
So its easy to say how good your live is being sourrounded by all the others who got shafted in the on or the other way. Be sure your group of happy DEFO will be next as the happy shafting makes it round throug all parts of happy people.

[airbusgirl66]

For the "Mericans" who are looking for a really quick escape....there are four EK pilots in the current GoJets class that started a few days ago.

[BobDole]

GoJets? Talk about from the frying pan and into the furnace...

[The Outlaw]

5 star,

Are you thinking 380 FO?

I'm LHS 380 and here are my days off past 12 months.

10, 10, 13, 12, 13, 4 (vacation month), 11 (reserve), 8, 5 (vacation month), 9, 13

Where are you getting your "facts" from or are you just pulling numbers out of your a$$?

Many of us flew the 330 when all of India was night TA with the exception of Kolkata and had 8 days per month. Like Pumpkin said, a lot of our colleagues boasted how great things were on the 777 while quietly thanking the powers that be that they weren't on the fleet.

That aside, I agree with the above...scheduling is all bad now with occasional forays into the dangerous and will continue to be for the infinite future. Everyone gets their turn at some point and EK shows no favorites.

As for the raises and improvement of T and C? Will not happen here, think GF. They will continue to lower the bar until...well lets not go there.

[bigdaviet]

Very sad to see arguing between the fleets. We should support each other.

The Indian layovers are a big improvement IMO. As turnarounds those flights were appalling and you would return from work the next afternoon not just exhausted but ill quite frankly!

[GoreTex]

but besides all of that, the 380 can't carry enough cargo, terrible
Tex (ex 380)

[fatbus]

Who cares!!!

[luvly jubbly]

but besides all of that, the 380 can't carry enough cargo, terrible
Tex (ex 380)

Sarcasm fatbus! 😎

[GoreTex]

Fatty, that was a joke, I heard that all the time when I was an active member of society, I was shattered.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

I left EK last year to join a reasonably well known uk airline predominantly based oop North. A couple of anecdotes: last year at relatively short notice I was offered a ticket for a rugby international. The roster was in process so it was too late to bid on - line. Bearing in mind I was told in Emirates that any direct verbal contact with rostering would lead to a written warning. So with slight trepidation I phoned my new rostering number to ask if I could have the day off and preferably the next to deal with the subsequent hangover. I was obviously ultra polite and the girl on the other end of the phone was very friendly but could not promise anything at that stage. The upshot: 5 days off! With the middle day being the rugby day and Scotland even managed to beat Argentina.
Olster - that's unbelievable - well Scotland winning....

[olster]

Olster - that's unbelievable - well Scotland winning....

Very funny....( accurate, though)

[falconeasydriver]

Just..in the last 10 minutes got off Skype with a good friend of mine who has tendered his resignation in the last 4 weeks, his description of the process is enlightening and a little troubling.
Handed his letter in at fleet after a ULR, his mobile rings in the car home with a request to meet fleet and CP Boeing.
He duly attends the meeting where he is quizzed as to his resignation, he replied "rostering, quality of life, unsustainable, life shortening" the response was, we can offer you 2 weeks on 2 weeks off for the next 6 months, and then review it. He replied..ok let me see that in writing, he got the official offer of the freighter contract this week. Not surprisingly his original resignation date stands.
He described the body language of the fleet person and CPB as looking at broken people.

[Talparc]

EGT looking at broken people?
Must be a joke?

[airbusgirl66]

BobDole....thought the f.... title of this thread was enough is enough. No reason to slam my response as I said it was a QUICK escape.

[Visual Procedures]

bigdaviet:

The Indian layovers are a big improvement IMO.

Indian layovers a roster improvement?

If losing another nights sleep and a day off compared to just doing a nasty T/A is an improvement then I need some of your coolaid.

Toughen the fu<k up princess.

Gimme the days off.

[flareflyer]

It is never enough.......they will never stop to surprise us.......now in case of recency renewal we also have to pay the sim.......
I am truly speechless.....

[felixthecat]

When ever are we even getting, even marginally, close to being out of recency??

[fatbus]

EK really know how to treat their pilots! The latest weekly is a perfect example.

[Mango]

Yep, it's a user pay society over here at EK.

[SOPS]

Shades of Ryanair?

[Emma Royds]

When ever are we even getting, even marginally, close to being out of recency??

It's not outwith the realms of possibility for those trying to fly the freighter as much as possible and especially if you throw in some leave into the equation as well.

[felixthecat]

Not going to be many trying to fly the freighter for long ;) ;) ;)

[Joker11]

The best thing this place does is lie to itself.

[BLOGGSON]

Indian layovers a roster improvement?

If losing another nights sleep and a day off compared to just doing a nasty T/A is an improvement then I need some of your coolaid.

Toughen the fu<k up princess.

Gimme the days off.

What a mindlessly and unnecessarily rude reply.

[pumpkin]

What a mindlessly and unnecessarily rude reply.

hmmm I thought that too.. was trying to decide if this person is just a natural born asshole or has become one because of fatigue and general non stop abuse by EK

[The Outlaw]

Sadly, prolonged fatigue does tend to turn one into an asshole. When it starts to affect family and friends then you have to make the choice to accept it or leave. Many are leaving now, some with no job to go to. AAR has the final say in rostering and has made no attempt to hide the fact that he is actively involved in making sure pilots are pushed to the limit, and in many cases, beyond the limit.

[BANANASBANANAS]

When I first joined EK, I heard pilots talking about going sick so they could attend things such as school events with their children, birthdays etc. My opinion then was that they were very selfish and crapping on their colleagues.

Whilst I still think that it is crapping on your colleagues, I am much more sympathetic to those that do manage their roster by going sick. And I also understand the reluctance by many to call sick fatigued.

I have no idea how much lower we can go but I do feel that we are now in the end game.

[ruserious]

Love the latest missive from the Bouncy Castle, it looks to be straight out of the Idiots guide on how not to manage your employees.

So, in the vague chance one of you lazy pilots manages to compromise recency, by going sick or having a holiday, our IT and rostering staff/systems are so inept that it will be your responsibility and fault. If that happens you will have to pay for the simulator.

I honestly think there is a manager somewhere in the BC who is deliberately trying to chase pilots away, otherwise how else can you explain the total idiocy of that?

[TooLow]

Ruserious,

I agree. I think that plan started when they forced A330 captains back to the right seat. They want guys to leave on their own rather than announce face-losing redundancies when the big downsizing starts.

Toolow

[Talparc]

obviously some kind of recency issues happened lately so thats why the new shafting will take place.

[Monarch Man]

Love the latest missive from the Bouncy Castle, it looks to be straight out of the Idiots guide on how not to manage your employees.

So, in the vague chance one of you lazy pilots manages to compromise recency, by going sick or having a holiday, our IT and rostering staff/systems are so inept that it will be your responsibility and fault. If that happens you will have to pay for the simulator.

I honestly think there is a manager somewhere in the BC who is deliberately trying to chase pilots away, otherwise how else can you explain the total idiocy of that?

I definitely think theres an element of truth to this, but then why all the expenditure on worldwide recruitment roadshows?
The more likely reason is that someone has had a recency issue...and rather than have people held too account, its much easier to blame lazy pilots.

[jack schidt]

Wow, is it the millennial generation mainly on here these days.

So many of these posts are about Me, Myself & I.

I would be ashamed if my kiddies got this demented on here.

A good weekend to all and go enjoy some grape juice or otherwise.

J

[sluggums]

... Said the EK manger

[Big Enos Burdette]

A good weekend to all and go enjoy some grape juice or otherwise.

J
I'd love to sit down and enjoy a nice glass of red, but unfortunately I'm working again and I've only had 2 days off together once (and 4 single days off) in the last 26 days.

[LHR Rain]

Not a millenial by any measure but just sick and tired of the crap EK gives us and expects us to take it.
Who would join this mad house? A truly sick person.
Happy Easter and hopefully we will all rise out of here very soon.

[Joker11]

Not a millenial by any measure but just sick and tired of the crap EK gives us and expects us to take it.
Who would join this mad house? A truly sick person.
Happy Easter and hopefully we will all rise out of here very soon.

Hear. Hear. Happy Easter!

[gtaflyer]

Guys and girls I think you need to try to read the writing on the wall.

They want you to go so that it will reduce the wage bill. Then they will hire fresh cheap guys who are desperate to fly bigger shinier jets if they manage to get any takers. All the carriers work like this. With no relief in sight for economic downturn and war monger ING going around the world I don't think things going to get better.

Also once they have reduced the numbers to half the size people planes whatever else then they will merge north and south.

My advice would be to leave while you have the ability to do so and it's your decision before the proverbial hits the fan. Better to do it this way then to let them make your life a misery which it seems they are doing very well.

[TOGA!]

gtaflyer do you work in the middle east?

[gtaflyer]

[QUOTE=TOGA!;9740246]gtaflyer do you work in the middle east?

No

[natops]

So you must be a VP then, not working in the ME, but on the payroll, and giving advise.

[HiflierEK]

We have to make a stance against them and the only way I can see is taking skf days to reduce the hrs and increase our days off. Everyone do it, every single month !!!

[expat400]

2005 (12 years ago) one of the guys in this thread wrote:

"We will always be treated no bettter that an Indian to mangement and it is time we start going to greener pastures. I have had it."

The question is.... is it as bad as you say? If so, how come you've stayed here so long? Not a "if you don't like it leave" but seriously... if it was that bad in 2005.. you should have been out of Dubai by now?

[fatbus]

The devil you know!

[Avid Aviator]

EEU, there is no place on this thread for sensible comments like that! :)
Even if they don't necessarily apply to us tractor drivers!

[motley flight crue]

Maybe he did ask them, yet they don't care.

[WB1900]

A6EEU
as i said u are proberly one of the lucky ones getting his upgrade in 4 years´, overtaking all the more senior FO from 330/340 and does not have to fly tractor roasters. I totally understand u that u are happy. I wish i could be on the same page and see only the good thing, but the broomstick hit me already to many times to say things are fine and ok! - and that is valid (unfortunately) for the majority of pilots here.


regards

[Xulu]

How about the ASR last month where the Captain kicked out the supernumerary crew girl before take-off on her first flight due to her asking questions...

He asked why we should have supernumerary crew in a 'critical' phase.

He then commented that she didn't come back during the cruise to finish asking her questions.


Well of course she didn't! I can imagine!

How miserable can you get? Truly embarrassing to read - Was probably one of you lot.

[Odins Raven]

Have to say, since leaving the one thing I do miss is the ASR summary. Always provided a chuckle in dark times.

Some memorable ones - the 'major threat arising from the use of the silver napkin holders', the regular 'I was almost unstable but I wasn't', and the legendary 'wake turbulence encounter on approach - probably from preceding aircraft' (as opposed to the aircraft behind or a giant seagull?)

[Odins Raven]

If that was the case than that is an insubordination, his ASR was stating something different.
If you cannot control your crew, do not seat in the left seat

Sometimes when you read the ASRs it stinks of 'I'm a new Captain and I like to kick up a fuss about something to show I'm now a Captain and I'm very important...'

I agree it is embarrassing. It's the minority not the majority though, and probably also a result of venting frustration about the bigger issues that can't be controlled.

[Fuel-Off]

Or alternatively, 'I'm a new Captain and I'm just covering my arse by filling out an ASR and will stop filling out ridiculous ASRs when management start operating with a just culture.'

Fuel-Off :ok:

[olster]

I liked " over fuelled by 50kgs..."

[fatbus]

50 kg ? Really? What an idiot!!!

[olster]

Yeah, and the reporting culture is a bit grim... deal with it at the time and directly...no need to go into print, not cool...

[Jetkopite]

Honestly some of these pilots we have makes me feel embarrassed to be associated with this profession.

No wonder they call us flight di@ks at the back ...

[skytrax]

Maybe he did ask them, yet they don't care.

You obviously seem to know better...

[MaxOne777]

Hi everyone,
Have heard all such about EK not being the airline of dreams on this forum but all I want to do in this life is fly which I'm very sure I will enjoy

I'm from Africa, an aviation enthusiast I'm currently in my mid 20's my dream is to one day fly the boeing 777 for EK but I wanna join through there cadet program which I know is for there citizens, but I still feel they will accept internationals based on the fact they have scarcity of pilots in EK. is it possible?

[The Outlaw]

Max,

The EK Ab Initio program is for Emirati's only, foreigners need not apply. From what I understand, the government pays for everything from cradle to cockpit but the student has to pay back in the form of giving 5 years to the company with pay if memory serves. Perhaps it has changed.

There was some talk about them opening a school for the "everyone else" group but its a heck of a lot of money up front with no guarantee of finishing the course and no promise of a job anywhere, including EK.

My best advice to you if you really want to fly a 777 is to become a famous actor or rock star then get your own aircraft for the band! Bruce Dickenson of Iron Maiden did that. I'm sure he gets about as many women and time off in both vocations! :rolleyes:

[MaxOne777]

Lol
Thanks for the info.

[Joker11]

Sign of things to come?

Expats in UAE to pay more for remitting money back home | Gulfnews.com (http://m.gulfnews.com/news/uae/society/expats-in-uae-to-pay-more-for-remitting-money-back-home-1.2012837).

We are being taken out like pigs. You just pay, pay, pay.The UAE is becoming too expensive. Saving money my ass.

[Stjuk]

Did you even read the article?

"Most of the leading money exchange houses raised the transaction fee by up to Dh2"

It's okay to complain about relevant things, but when you highlight an article like this you take focus from what's really important.

Just my two Dhs...

[sandsthrudahrglass]

" ground pay delay f.d " on payslip...

Discuss:*

[Stjuk]

Fair enough it's a minuscule rise, but I guess that's why he put "sign of things to come". Not "wow, this will hurt my pocket."

All price rises in Dubai are a worry when pay increases don't follow, and what is a 2dhs rise today can easily be a much larger one soon.

It's hardly a new concept. It's called inflation, I'm sure it happens in your home country as well, so not a Dubai thing. Our problem is that our pay rises haven't kept up with that, quite the contrary.

[Praise Jebus]

Inflation...just renewed car insurance and Third party went up 100% :eek:

[fliion]

Jan 1st - liquor lic went up 62% from 170 - 270

When those transfer fees are put into percentiles they increased by 10%,9.3% & 33% respectively according to article linked.

All these items combined with others in everyday life start to have a hit on the bottom line.

[Stjuk]

Using individual percentage increases on relatively small things such as liquor license and remittance fees is not an accurate picture. Statistics can be used in many ways, politicians love it.

Overall inflation is higher than our pay rise and have been for years. So we have a big problem!

My point is that instead of looking at remittance fee increases of 2 Dhs, perhaps we should focus on the real issues. Such as 4% VAT which I am convinced will not be addressed in this coming pay review. Or the next for that matter.

[Joker11]

Fact remains that life here is becoming too expensive and that your money is being sucked out of our pockets. Unfortunately the salary does not match the living costs here.

[gtaflyer]

so just how many 380 and 777 are laying empty without crews in DXB?

[Evanelpus]

I'm from Africa, an aviation enthusiast I'm currently in my mid 20's my dream is to one day fly the boeing 777 for EK but I wanna join through there cadet program which I know is for there citizens, but I still feel they will accept internationals based on the fact they have scarcity of pilots in EK. is it possible?

So, the choice is the dole, flying for Arik or EK. :ugh:

It's like choosing between a heart attack and cancer!:eek:

[Xiamen]

I still have a problem trying to figure out who EK is trying to target when they offer 777 DEC to narrowbody pilots, but at the same time they demand 1000 hrs widebody flying within the last 3 years.
Former Ek pilots who left for LoCo companies?
It doesn't make sense?

[fatbus]

Your last sentence says it all!

[Lcb86]

I still have a problem trying to figure out who EK is trying to target when they offer 777 DEC to narrowbody pilots, but at the same time they demand 1000 hrs widebody flying within the last 3 years.
Former Ek pilots who left for LoCo companies?
It doesn't make sense?

Did you try applying without the widebody hours?

[LivingINtheDream]

I think the 1000hrs widebody requirement may be to prevent FZ pilots from fleeing from accros the road...same owner, chairman etc.

[speed2height]

After almost 2 decades in the desert, let me tell you that you have 2 choices. If you haven't worked out what your choices are then you shouldn't be flying aeroplanes here. If you do know what choices are available to you, chose one and live with it.


Well Jack, there are many more choices available to the intelligent individuals who read these forums than your simple "Like it or Leave", "Put up or Shut up" response.

We all know about Market Forces, and we all know that without pilots airplanes don't fly and Airlines don't turn a profit. We imagine that HR watches the Labor Market and will have to compete economically to attract talent. So for some, the first act of rebellion is to describe their working conditions in truthful and factual detail.

I am sure there is not a single poster from EK who isn't aware that these forums are monitored by EK. Most have heard the accounts of litigation being initiated based on forum postings here. Heck, EY discussion is prohibited by the forum because of this.

However, there are those of us taking an option you omitted to mention and
are actively seeking roles of responsibility within EK and engaging internally on the issues being mentioned.

Jack, if you have resigned yourself to accepting whatever is sent your way until you can't take it anymore, and think this is the best approach, then I am sorry for both you and EK. But if you are interested in managing expectations upwards AND downwards throw your hat in the ring.

[sluggums]

Eh? In English please...

[LHR Rain]

What is he is saying is EK sucks and you better be completely desperate or have no brain to join now.

[TangoUniform]

Speed...there a many a "dead" body along the trail you prescribe. As those who, on the third floor attempt to do, have found out and moved on, given up and disappear back on the line or cooperate to graduate. Also the Stockholm Syndrome can come into play. I know of NO one in the past decade that has made any significant change to flight ops other than MM in training. And his hands are tied in many areas. It's a lose lose situation for one who attempts change here. Only market forces will affect a positive change for us.

[jack schidt]

Speed...there a many a "dead" body along the trail you prescribe. As those who, on the third floor attempt to do, have found out and moved on, given up and disappear back on the line or cooperate to graduate. Also the Stockholm Syndrome can come into play. I know of NO one in the past decade that has made any significant change to flight ops other than MM in training. And his hands are tied in many areas. It's a lose lose situation for one who attempts change here. Only market forces will affect a positive change for us.


The main positive view is that the next day IS a day closer to going home, that's how to stay focussed and content here.

Jack

[Joker11]

Thats it. Next year is cut off. Just gonna try to make as much money as possible,but I am done. Heading for the exit door.

[arvida]

There is any form of training bond or you can leave after 6 months if you don't like it?

[nothingsurprisesme]

It's simple: the rot is a result of the pure greed of management. What else needs to be said?
The answer: As in most civilised countries: take care of your employees and they'll take care of you.

[lospilotos]

There is any form of training bond or you can leave after 6 months if you don't like it?

5 year bond at $48.000 if memory serves me right.

[Frozen Turtle]

5 year bond at $48.000 if memory serves me right.

5 years after FLC, so about 5 1/2 years bond for the joining junior regional TP f`ooh

[120feet]

GoJet, a US Regional, currently has 5, yes 5 ex EK Captains going through new hire training. So whether or not you believe the stories on how bad it is at EK and whether or not you think the EK pilots complain too much. At least 5 were willing to give up the left seat at EK to go back to regional flying.

[The Darkness]

120feet,


Correct! A friend of mine is in that class also.................... He said the ex-EK Captains are great, but left EK as they were fed up!

[fatbus]

Good for them !!!

[fatbus]

Now , who cares ?

[bafanguy]

120ft,

Are the EK pilots at least entering GoJet as DECs ? I think I remember that GoJet takes DECs ?

[5star]

fatbus,
trying to contribute something useful over here, or simply trying to get your number if posts up?

[falconeasydriver]

Good on them I say, best feeling in the world stepping off that sweet bird of freedom as you reach your destination..in my case I rather stumbled as I consumed as much booze as I could.
The mericans I knew at EK tended to fall into 2 distinct categories, they were either planning to leave, or were leaving.
Not sure if I'd jump for a CRJ job, but home is home and I guess they can return to the land of "passin 18.5 climbin 35 ohhhh" and enjoy good BBQ pork sandwiches ��

[Gunman returns]

Passin 18.5 climbing 35ohhh,
See ya. ( Thankfully)

[4runner]

GoJet, a US Regional, currently has 5, yes 5 ex EK Captains going through new hire training. So whether or not you believe the stories on how bad it is at EK and whether or not you think the EK pilots complain too much. At least 5 were willing to give up the left seat at EK to go back to regional flying.

They're getting US 121 current...the US is a bit skittish of guys that have been flying overseas. I know that sounds ridiculous, and it is. Furthermore, it's against the law to discriminate based on race, religion, nationality or creed. Unfortunately, it seems to be the case.

[Fred Garvin M.P.]

That's completely inaccurate. The US isn't a bit skittish, they are taking a lot of EK guys. Even the "Big 3" are taking EK guys despite the campaign against EK. The only carrier that I have heard that hasn't taken EK guys is FedEx, and I can only assume that's based on their 5 year rule of living in the US. UPS doesn't have that and is taken EK pilots, United, American, Delta all have hired EK pilots in the last 12 months. Southwest has taken a lot of EK guys. I haven't heard about JetBlue in fairness taking any EK pilots.

[Joker11]

That's completely inaccurate. The US isn't a bit skittish, they are taking a lot of EK guys. Even the "Big 3" are taking EK guys despite the campaign against EK. The only carrier that I have heard that hasn't taken EK guys is FedEx, and I can only assume that's based on their 5 year rule of living in the US. UPS doesn't have that and is taken EK pilots, United, American, Delta all have hired EK pilots in the last 12 months. Southwest has taken a lot of EK guys. I haven't heard about JetBlue in fairness taking any EK pilots.

Good news!

[Joker11]

GoJet, a US Regional, currently has 5, yes 5 ex EK Captains going through new hire training. So whether or not you believe the stories on how bad it is at EK and whether or not you think the EK pilots complain too much. At least 5 were willing to give up the left seat at EK to go back to regional flying.

Good on them. I wish them best of luck and that they will find peace and happiness. Maybe find joy in aviation again.

[B-757]

They're getting US 121 current...the US is a bit skittish of guys that have been flying overseas. I know that sounds ridiculous, and it is. Furthermore, it's against the law to discriminate based on race, religion, nationality or creed. Unfortunately, it seems to be the case...Absolutely not true..The majors are hiring expats left and right..These guys and gals are pilots with years and years of experience in international ops, in widebody aircraft..


Fly safe
B-757

[ruserious]

Quick question, is it fair to say that the definition of enough is enough, when you wake up in the and the first thought that enters your head is moving to Qatar Airways?

[anson harris]

Quick question, is it fair to say that the definition of enough is enough, when you wake up in the and the first thought that enters your head is moving to Qatar Airways?

I think that's the definition of needing a long holiday.

[thatwasclose]

Hahahha!
What rus said . Been thinking that actually.

[gatbusdriver]

Different shade of brown.

Your managers are coming here and making life interesting!

[jack schidt]

Rather like the 521 detailed report, this years financial figures appear to have been be rather "overlooked". The quietness and lack of communication is deafening from HQ. Will time pass and hopefully no one will know notice?

J

[White Knight]

Rather like the 521 detailed report, this years financial figures appear to have been be rather "overlooked". The quietness and lack of communication is deafening from HQ. Will time pass and hopefully no one will know notice?

J

IIRC there's usually an announcement to announce the results towards the end of the first week of May with the actual figures announced mid May... So nothing unusual yet!

[JAYTO]

The guys who set up the Atrium for the yearly results announcement have already been given the rest of the year off.

J

[lospilotos]

IIRC there's usually an announcement to announce the results towards the end of the first week of May with the actual figures announced mid May... So nothing unusual yet!

The last few years the results have been announced on May 10 (5 weeks), 7 (9 weeks), 8 (3 weeks) and 9 (no profit share) .

Last year the announcement of the announcement was made already on April 25th, so I agree on the observation that there will no need to dress up the HQ atrium this year.

[CaptainChipotle]

There will no need to dress up the HQ atrium this year.

Cost cutting fellas! Ek is sinking like the titanic! Don't worry, you'll get your 8% raise (3% step + 5%VAT)... the checks in the mail.

[harry the cod]

DUNDA

With respect, and without knowing your full circumstances, discounting a potential employer based 'purely' on anonymous posts is being somewhat naive and ignorant.

These forums are an opportunity for many pilots to vent their anger and air their frustrations. You only need to look at other Worldwide threads to realise this is not unique to EK. Pilots whinge, moan and complain. Always have and always will. There is a lot of emotion on these forums, some justified, some not. Everyone's personal circumstances are unique and opinion and advice will be biased towards individual desires.

Whilst you're quite right in being judicious in your approach to the glitzy PR and hollow promises, perhaps you'd have been better speaking with individuals actually employed here. Not only might their opinion differ, but even amongst fleets, age and personal circumstances, advice will vary. There is definitely a retention and recruitment issue, no doubt about it, but that does not detract that for many, this can and still does offer a reasonable lifestyle for a decent remuneration.

I'm not disagreeing with your actual decision per say, but in the methodology in reaching that decision.


jack schidt

Internal Report was finalised several weeks ago and is being 'reviewed' by senior management before release to the general populous! How long or with what changes are recommended, both within the report and operationally, remain to be seen. We will, most likely, see those recommendations discreetly integrated into our Evidence Based Training. As we're already seeing in fact with Go arounds being the 'hot topic'.


WK

Agreed, but I will not be holding my breath for anything this year, let alone profit share.

Harry

[Emma Royds]

Harry

I agree that purely basing a decision on information gleaned from this website could be argued as not being particularly through in terms of attention to detail. However the difficult question is what other mediums of information are available that are as easily accessible as this website, if one doesn't know anyone in the company?

If you have someone who lives in one of the far flung corners of the world relative to Dubai and knows no one in the company, then what is read here is probably going to be a very significant source of information of life as an EK pilot both on the aircraft and also whilst off it in Dubai.

[Gunman returns]

One of my neighbours, 48 yr old 777 Captain left today to be a 2 striper FO at British Airways on the A320.!!

[fatbus]

Good for him!

[RexBanner]

One of my neighbours, 48 yr old 777 Captain left today to be a 2 striper FO at British Airways on the A320.!!

I'd just like to know how this is possible when there are no start dates for BA hold poolers being issued at the moment and recruitment for this year is for FPP's only?

[Emma Royds]

Sounds like he is an FPP.

'Frustrated Purposeful Pilot'

The numbers off FPPs within EK are increasing too, which is demonstrated by the numbers departing.

[5star]

Fatbus is about to reveal his tru colors...
starts sounding more and more like a typical EK manager looking at his last few posts...

'good for him/them' says it all....

[fatbus]

Not even close ! I Don't believe all the rumours. Some of the absolute BS you hear in the car makes me laugh!

[White Knight]

Some of the absolute BS you hear in the car makes me laugh!


Seconded:}

[Flyboy_SG]

No use of cribbing here. The whole EK pilot community has to stand up and demand for fair T & C. But the fact is there is no unity amongst pilots generally, even if there was a chance to form an union. Hence the EK type managers take full advantage of it. Take it or leave it !
It's obvious why they are asking a type rated pilot to signup a 50k/5 year bond. Slavery !

[Odins Raven]

I'd just like to know how this is possible when there are no start dates for BA hold poolers being issued at the moment and recruitment for this year is for FPP's only?

You sure? I know a guy who started on the 320 course not long ago. He had been in the pool for a while having done the interview last year. Maybe that's the case with this captain.

Whilst it seems crazy to go from LHS 777 to two stripe 320 you also have to consider how quickly you can get a short-haul command at Gatwick with BA. At one point they sent a notice to their pilots threatening recruitment of DECs as they were so short on LGW short haul command applications internally. I believe it can be done in a year as a DEFO with experience so maybe it's not such a bad option for someone who's family is based near LGW anyway?

[theSandyBear]

FPP - that's me...
Having been here 10+ years, I always hoped things would get better. They didn't and they won't. While some colleagues have sometimes told me I've been drinking the cool-aid, I understand and (unwillingly) accept logical business decisions and the need for profit. However, the greed, mismanagement, incompetence and "face" at virtually all levels is slowly sinking the ship. Everyone is only looking inside their little box. Cross department collaboration is non-existing, IT is an absolute mess... At our end, over the last decade, productivity has nearly doubled, but nothing to show for it, not even compensated for inflation (as ie increases in school fees would indicate). Vacation and roster bids are a joke (illegal?), and birthdays, weddings, graduations, family celebrations are virtually impossible to attend (although AVA might give little relief and use for all the va days on the bank). Monthly and yearly limits are a target for scheduling, and if you are not productive enough, nasty e-mails are coming your way. Even the threat of termination for low productivity (long term sickness) is real, possibly even without LoL. Now, medical benefits (insurance?) has started to make all kinds of unilateral deductions and limitations both for consultations, test and medications. That's on top of the reduced number of olives, salad leaves, salik dodging, live-out-freeze, other T&C "improvements"...
I am not saying things are better elsewhere, necessarily. I don't know if they are, for sure. But the way things have developed here, I am getting tired, sick & tired... The only thing that keeps me here is that, while effing expensive, schools are still good (at least acceptable) (while greedy) and I will try to survive until the kids are done with high school...
...IF I survive...

[wiggy]

Odins

....they were so short on LGW short haul command applications internally. I believe it can be done in a year as a DEFO with experience so maybe it's not such a bad option for someone who's family is based near LGW anyway?

The one year to command "event" at BA was very much a black swan event, a combination for the individual (s) involved of right experience, right place, right time.. however something like "normal service" has been resumed so for those considering options a quick command at BA is most definitely not something to be relied upon.

As for the story of 777 captain to BA Shorthaul F/O, well each to their own I guess. It's certainly a brave move....

[RexBanner]

You sure? I know a guy who started on the 320 course not long ago. He had been in the pool for a while having done the interview last year. Maybe that's the case with this captain?

The last courses for DEP's at BA were end of February, possibly beginning of March. There have been no start dates issued for DEP's in the hold pool or otherwise since the start of the year. That's why I'm highly dubious as to the veracity of this story of a supposed 777 captain who has just left Emirates for a RHS A320 job at BA. The only new pilots to the company this year are coming in the form of graduates of the Future Pilot Program. That's come from internal comms and matches what every person in the hold pool has been told, you only have to look at the consternation on the BA direct entry pilot thread on terms and endearment. Furthermore the training plans for May, June and July do not show any direct entry A320 courses. But never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

[Craggenmore]

Fact alert.....

In the past 7 years I've met and flown with more guys who have left BA and joined EK then have left EK and are joining BA.

[haveago]

Real BA or a sub-sub-sidery more like. A whole bunch of people talking a load of nonsense! Each day I'm more and more embarrassed to be associated with this pfofession.

[777-200LR]

Haveago, correct!

You reminded me of the time I flew with an ex-BMI FO and he introduced himself as a former BA pilot

[Emma Royds]

Fact alert.....

In the past 7 years I've met and flown with more guys who have left BA and joined EK then have left EK and are joining BA.

I would say that in the last five years the predominate flow seems to be to BA and not from BA. Indicative of the times we are in at EK I guess.

[Odins Raven]

Haveago, correct!

You reminded me of the time I flew with an ex-BMI FO and he introduced himself as a former BA pilot

Not sure why he'd want to do that... nothing wrong at all with BMI, and the ex-BMI FOs I flew with at EK were first-class aviators. That said, it is true that some BMI guys effectively became BA guys isn't it?

[Eau de Boeing]

Odins Raven, BMI in conversation in Dubai was only acceptable if you were under 30....

[Joker11]

Haveago, correct!

You reminded me of the time I flew with an ex-BMI FO and he introduced himself as a former BA pilot

Isn't a pilot a pilot no matter where he worked beforehand?

Just wondering....

[SEAMASTER]

A friend of mine, ex Flybe dash 8 training captain joined BA two years ago, now an Airbus 320/1 captain out of Heathrow ! It is happening.

[RexBanner]

Struggling to see the relevance of the above comment.

[Officer Kite]

Struggling to see the relevance of the above comment.

You aren't alone ...

[4runner]

..Absolutely not true..The majors are hiring expats left and right..These guys and gals are pilots with years and years of experience in international ops, in widebody aircraft..


Fly safe
B-757

Maybe. It helps to be US 121 current. Many of the guys going back to majors were furloughed and have been recalled. They may have previously bypassed a recall.

[troff]

Have to say, since leaving the one thing I do miss is the ASR summary. Always provided a chuckle in dark times.

Some memorable ones - the 'major threat arising from the use of the silver napkin holders', the regular 'I was almost unstable but I wasn't', and the legendary 'wake turbulence encounter on approach - probably from preceding aircraft' (as opposed to the aircraft behind or a giant seagull?)

Or the one about the crew walkways on the ramp not having arrows in both directions (...mate). LMFAO!

[cerbus]

Ex BMI introduces himself as ex BA.....

Or most of the US Regional pilots saying they worked for United or Delta.
When queried and asked why in the he11 they would leave Delta or United to come to EK they sheepishly say almost under their breath that they worked for United Express or .......... insert sh1tty Regional here.
Do they really think we don't know where they came from?

[soakingpilot]

Who has done that? Gaah give me a job in the ME now.

[keepitrealok]

Or the one about the crew walkways on the ramp not having arrows in both directions

I missed that one, but am prepared to give the reporter the benefit of the doubt and say it is one of the greatest p1ss takes of all!!! :D:D:D

it encapsulates the exact mindset of the muppets in the office who dissect the books in great detail, misinterpreting English language and grammar in order to place blame on the pilot, and not on their poorly thought out practices.

[springbok449]

troff,

Don't forget though that it was more for their benefit than yours...or was it simply that the 2 way arrow was more of a techniiique?