USN T-45 Grounded After Pilots Strike [Archive]

SpazSinbad

5th Apr 2017, 23:28

Way back when A-4 pilots sucked pure oxygen under pressure from their masks (one had to get used to opening the mouth with outward pressure to resist the inward pressure of the LOX coming down). Valsalva Maneuver anyone? Buehler? Anyone? Best let medicos explain:
Physiology of Flight
"...Another oxygen effect which may be loosely grouped under the general heading of oxygen toxicity is atelectasis while breathing 100 percent oxygen during + Gz acceleration, although the term “oxygen toxicity” in this context is a misnomer. Acceleration atelectasis is included in this section only because it occurs when an aviator is breathing 100 percent oxygen. The primary factor responsible for the atelectasis is probably the complete cessation of basilar alveolar ventilation under acceleration. There is also markedly increased blood flow to the basilar alveoli as opposed to the apical ones, along with a reduction in basilar alveolar volumes as the weight of the lung under acceleration compresses the bases against the diaphragm. With these factors acting in concert, and when the alveoli in question contain only oxygen, water vapor, and carbon dioxide, oxygen absorption (the main cause of acceleration atelectasis) leads to alveolar collapse, and atelectasis can occur very rapidly.

If nitrogen is present in the inspired gas, the gas absorption and consequent alveolar collapse are greatly slowed. The time required for complete absorption of gas contained in the lower quarter of the unventilated lung, with normal blood flow distribution, is increased from five minutes on 100 percent oxygen to about 25 minutes on 50 percent oxygen, 50 percent nitrogen. In addition, there is evidence that nitrogen in the lung acts as a “spring” by preventing alveolar collapse when all the oxygen is absorbed.

Pulmonary atelectasis during flight may result in several performance-degrading effects, including distracting or perhaps even incapacitating cough and chest pain and arterial hypoxia due to the shunt of venous blood through the nonaerated alveoli. The Flight Surgeon should remain aware that coughing, substernal pain, and decreased altitude tolerance may indicate the development of this condition. In any event, acceleration atelectasis usually resolves itself in a few days with little or no treatment...." http://www.operationalmedicine.org/TextbookFiles/FlightSurgeonsManual.pdf
AP Impact: Air Force insiders foresaw F-22 woes 27 Sep 2012
“...The group [RAW-G] was founded by members of the F-22 community who were concerned about how the unique demands of the aircraft could affect pilots. The fighter can evade radar and fly faster than sound without using afterburners, capabilities unmatched by any other country. It also flies higher than its predecessors and has a self-contained oxygen generation system to protect pilots from chemical or biological attack....

...By the time RAW-G got going, some pilots were already experiencing a problem called "Raptor cough" — fits of chest pain and coughing dating back to 2000 that stem from the collapse of overworked air sacs in the lungs.

The group concluded that the F-22's On-Board Oxygen Generation System — or OBOGS — was giving pilots too much oxygen, causing the coughing. The more often and higher the pilots flew after being oxygen-saturated, group members believed, the more vulnerable pilots affected by the condition would be to other physiological incidents.

RAW-G recommended more tests and that the F-22's oxygen delivery system be adjusted through a digital controller and a software upgrade.

"The schedule would provide less oxygen at lower altitudes than the current schedule, which has been known to cause problems with delayed ear blocks and acceleration atelectasis," the technical term for the condition that leads to the coughing, according to the minutes from RAW-G's final meeting....” http://www.rdmag.com/news/2012/09/ap-impact-air-force-insiders-foresaw-f-22-woes/

gums

6th Apr 2017, 00:18

Salute!

Yeah, Spaz, I flew with the O2 under pressure in the VooDoo. Guess they were thinking we could zoom way up and survive a little bit bove 50,000 feet without spacesuits when doing a snap up versus a target at 70,000 + feet. We were pressurized, but guess they were worried it might fail.

Then the delayed ear blocks we learned to clear when sleeping was the best trick I learned. We also had something like the Raptor Cough but we never pulled sustained gees and certainly nothing above 4 or 5 gees for more than a few seconds.

I question the assertion that OBOGS defeats chem warfare, as tanked oxygen is guaranteed not to become contaminated.

As Wolf has noted, the technology is old. We tested a few jets at Hill in early 80's. My theory is HHQ folks wanted quicker turns and less dependence upon ground equipment and all the stuff required for LOX. Due to my corroded lungs, I use both portable and home model concentrators. They provide 95% O2 up to 10,000 feet, then fall off. I haven't heard of histotoxic hypoxia with those machines.

I wonder why we can't have sensors in the system to detect harmful gases or even particles. That won't prevent the high gee and pure oxygen problems, but it would sure as hell let the pilot/crew know their system was porked.

Gums sends...

SpazSinbad

6th Apr 2017, 01:16

Gums, A4G pilots could be identified in the Nowra Mess by their constant Valsalva Maneuvering. Waking up with painful ears could be no joke but cleared by above. I was not particularly bothered by low altitude high G 'coughs' however one pilot was severely affected, causing our new flying doctor (qualified on A4Gs) to investigate, giving us a heap of info. When that pilot died in a TA4G crash into the sea in 1974 that 'cough' - as a cause - was investigated but discounted. RIP

The Kiwis had LOX in their original A-4Ks but at some time (maybe KAHU upgrade?) changed to a cabin air/oxygen combo - much like the Sea Venom/Vampire or Macchi MB326H.

ORAC

6th Apr 2017, 06:45

Navy Announces Three-Day Grounding for T-45s After Pilot Strike | Military.com (http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/04/05/navy-announces-two-day-grounding-t45s-pilot-strike.html)

Are they civil instructors?

SpazSinbad

6th Apr 2017, 08:31

A new hint of the GrowlingShornet struggles with OBOGS: 06 Apr 2017
"...Hypoxia has plagued the Navy’s T-45s and larger fleet of F/A-18 fleet for years now, but the issue has recently received more attention on Capitol Hill. During a 28 March House Armed Services Committee hearing, members of Congress expressed concern over dangerous crew cabin pressure in the older Super Hornets and possible oxygen contamination in the newer F/A-18 variants. The F/A-18A through D models saw a 90% increase in physiological episodes (PEs) over the last fiscal year, while the E and F models saw an 11% increase in the same period. Meanwhile, the EA-18G doubled its number of PEs during that same time."
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/us-navy-temporarily-grounds-t-45-fleet-435958/

galaxy flyer

6th Apr 2017, 14:31

Fun Fact: there is a Lt Michael Pence in USN training program, either student or IP. I think thus making headlines is the reason for the grounding.

GF

Lonewolf_50

6th Apr 2017, 17:13

Long running OBOGS issues: got it.
Contamination: got it.
@Spazsinbad: TMS ~ Type/Model/Series. Sorry, lapsed into old USN Acronym-speak.
Did someone change a vendor, or a parts supplier, or make an airframe mod?
Is this the usual "we can never get any spare parts to fix the damned things properly" that happens in various budgetary cycles? I only had two experiences with OBOGS, both in a T-45, my other O2 was with a mixer or diluter with the chance to go 100 full )2 for emergencies. (LOX or other O2 bottles, model dependent).
This isn't new technology: why is this not fixed? I think that's what has the pilots frustrated. It also, apparently, is not a new problem. Heard rumor that an ejection last year was due to OBOGS malfunction (http://www.caller.com/story/news/local/military/2017/04/05/navy-training-jets-grounded-nas-kingsville/100066276/). Will try to find a link.

GlobalNav

6th Apr 2017, 17:27

Fun Fact: there is a Lt Michael Pence in USN training program, either student or IP. I think thus making headlines is the reason for the grounding.

Student I think and I would hardly think that has as much new-worthiness as IP's refusing to fly. There must be a very good Naval airman in the leadership to take seriously the word of those IP's over the "Navy line." Every now and then...and that's real good news.

ORAC

6th Apr 2017, 17:51

Galaxy, in my link above.

"News of the pilots' refusal to fly was first reported Tuesday night by Fox News. The outlet reported that Marine 1st Lt. Michael Pence, son of Vice President Mike Pence, is among the student pilots affected by the strike."

Lone wolf, same link.

"Fox reported that physiological episodes connected to problems with the trainers' onboard oxygen generation systems had quadrupled over the last five years, with 10 episodes in the last month. In August, the report notes, a flight instructor and student ejected near Kingsville after they both felt symptoms of hypoxia. While they both survived without injury, the aircraft crashed and was destroyed."

Lonewolf_50

6th Apr 2017, 19:15

ORAC: To answer your question, no, the Navy instructors who fly the T-45 are not civilians.

(The simulator instructors are civilian contractors, however, a great many of them being former military pilots).

galaxy flyer

6th Apr 2017, 19:18

GN,

I agree, the reason for the grounding ISN'T Lt Pence's training. Just a fun fact.

GF

ORAC

6th Apr 2017, 19:23

Lonewolf,

So not a strike as reported - just a safety related stand-down, presumably agreed up the command chain.

SpazSinbad

6th Apr 2017, 19:28

During two thread amalgamation this info about the NAVY instructors from the original article cited by all other articles was lost:
"EXCLUSIVE: More than 100 U.S. Navy instructor pilots are refusing to fly in protest of what they say is the refusal of top brass to adequately address an urgent problem with training jets’ oxygen system, multiple instructor pilots tell Fox News. The boycott started late last week and has effectively grounded hundreds of training flights. “The pilots don’t feel safe flying this aircraft,” one instructor pilot told Fox News...."
Navy instructor pilots refusing to fly over safety concerns; Pence's son affected | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/04/04/navy-instructor-pilots-refusing-to-fly-over-safety-concerns-pences-son-affected.html)

BEagle

6th Apr 2017, 19:33

'Raptor cough'? That sounds rather similar to 'Hunter Lung', about which all RAF trainee pilots were taught at AMTC North Luffenham several years ago...:rolleyes:

Rick777

7th Apr 2017, 06:05

I'm guessing the presence of Lt. Pence may be more than a fun fact. Not good for any admiral's career to have the VP's son killed on his watch.

Octane

7th Apr 2017, 07:47

I wonder if Lt Pence would avoid the draft if WW3 broke out today, as is recent tradition in US politics.
The honourable Senator McCain (though he's "not a hero" because he got shot down according to one retard), George Bush Senior (who I believe also got shot down in WW2), JFK and John Kerry deserve special mention and respect among others. All seemed to change in the 60's/ 70's. George W and D Trump spring to mind but I'm sure there were many many others who received "special" consideration due to family "connections"...

megan

7th Apr 2017, 13:27

Kerry and respect are mutually exclusive to Viet Vets.

Al R

7th Apr 2017, 19:45

Going back a few years, I seem to remember the air supply systems of our 146s being contaminated, and the fleet grounded. Would the US problem affect our Hawk fleet?

Lonewolf_50

8th Apr 2017, 02:37

Lonewolf,

So not a strike as reported - just a safety related stand-down, presumably agreed up the command chain. It is my take that Fox has oversold the story somewhat, and that your summary is closer to what's going on. However, I have heard through the grapevine that OBOGS, though a mature system, has had some problems and there is a perception that the system isn't willing to put the time and money into getting a long term fix. In a similar story that I am more familiar with, the T-45 nose wheel steering dampening system had a long standing problem that it took some years to finally sort out ... all the while the IP's had to 'live with it' ... by the way, I have another PM for you.

For our other contributor ... (Octane)
I wonder if Lt Pence would avoid the draft if WW3 broke out today, as is recent tradition in US politics.
The honourable Senator McCain (though he's "not a hero" because he got shot down according to one retard), George Bush Senior (who I believe also got shot down in WW2), JFK and John Kerry deserve special mention and respect among others. He's already commissioned, "dodging the draft" don't enter into it.

So, how many years did you serve?

gums

8th Apr 2017, 12:36

Salute!

Yeah, Wolfie, a safety grounding is not all that unique. The down time can be months or just a few days depending on the issue.

I participated in two as the jets matured and many more sorties were being flown by many more jets than during the test programs. Both of mine were due to the motors.

The A-7D had a sleeve on the fan shaft that could fail and there goes the TF-41. So we would taxi the suckers around to keep stuff lubricated and look for other squaks.

The F-16 also had a problem that did not show up for a coupla years and we did the same drill as we had for the SLUF. In fact, that's how I got my wife in the jet. We had plenty of family models being a training outfit, so we had all the wives take a spin down the runway before pulling the power back.

The oxygen thing is scary, as you may not know you have a problem when it is already too late.

Local station down here in PNS had a decent segment on the problem a coupla days ago.

Gums sends..

ORAC

11th Apr 2017, 06:29

Grounding extended.

http://navylive.dodlive.mil/2017/04/09/naval-air-forces-visits-training-wing/

".......As I have shared before in messages to the force, I am fully prepared to limit or curtail flight operations if our fleet leadership team determines the risk to our aircrew cannot be mitigated to an acceptable level. After frank discussions with the aircrew, leadership staffs and engineers, I will extend the operational pause for at least a week to allow time for our engineers to do a deeper dive into T-45 systems and for leadership to determine additional mitigation measures that will reduce the risks associated with the T-45 oxygen breathing system."..........

SpazSinbad

12th Apr 2017, 04:50

And away we go.... indefinitely:
"The head of naval aviation has extended a three-day grounding of all the Navy's T-45 training jets indefinitely after a group of instructor pilots refused to fly the aircraft....

...Shoemaker was joined in Meridian by Sen. Roger Wicker, R-Miss., a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee who has taken an interest in the T-45 issues.

Wicker told a local TV station that the Navy was planning to send a couple of the T-45s to Naval Air Station Patuxent River to be broken down and evaluated for issues. [Ve Haf Vays of Making you talk]

“This is now the top priority of naval aviation, to get to the bottom of this, to solve this," Wicker said. "We’re being told in this respect that money is no object that the necessary resources are going to be devoted to solving this problem.”
https://www.navytimes.com/articles/things-have-gone-from-bad-to-worse-at-the-navys-flight-school 09 Apr 2017

SpazSinbad

17th Apr 2017, 17:46

T-45s flying again after brief grounding 17 Apr 2017 Leigh Giangreco
"...Pilots should resume operations early next [week 17 Apr 2017] but will be limited to flights under 10,000 feet, according to a 15 April NAVAIR statement. Although the on board oxygen generator system (OBOGS) is not needed at that altitude, pilots wear the mask in training and the communications mic is already established in the mask, a NAVAIR spokeswoman said in an email to FlightGlobal. The connection between the mask and the helmet reduces risk in case of ejection and in the event of an emergency, pilots can hook back into the oxygen, she adds....

...The OBOGS represent a persistent problem for the Navy’s T-45, EA-18Gs and F/A-18F/Gs and hypoxia has plagued the service’s fleet of T-45s for years now.

The Navy is continuing to work with flight surgeons, physiologists and toxicologists to identify the root problem, Shoemaker says. Recently, an independent review team from NASA visited Pax River as part of ongoing review of physiological episodes."
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/t-45s-flying-again-after-brief-grounding-436265/

SpazSinbad

18th Apr 2017, 01:11

Bummer for gaining CarQuals/Wings O'Gold - in the movies they fly without masks on - just pretend.... go on.... :}
"Navy student pilots will resume some flights in the T-45C Goshawk this week after a 12-day operational pause to determine the cause of recent oxygen-generation system failures, but they will not be allowed to land on aircraft carriers or fly higher-altitude missions until a permanent solution is found...." 17 Apr 2017
https://news.usni.org/2017/04/17/temporary-fix-identified-t-45c-trainer-students-still-cant-land-carriers-permanent-solution-found

SpazSinbad

22nd Apr 2017, 05:39

HolyMoly Batman! More T-45C restrictions - 5K feet and 2G limit: LONG ARTICLE....

New Problems Hit T-45; Navy Tightens Flight Limits « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary (http://breakingdefense.com/2017/04/new-problems-hit-t-45-navy-imposes-new-flight-limits/)

SpazSinbad

23rd Apr 2017, 21:07

U.S. Navy Further Limits T-45 Flying To 5,000 ft. 21 Apr 2017 AvWeak
"...one pilot reported minor headaches and the symptoms had subsided as the aircraft descended. A medical team assessed that this discomfort resulted from the high g-forces that were being experienced at the upper edge of the 10,000-ft. altitude limit. The pilots had been conducting dynamic flight maneuvers above 4 g at 10,000 ft. with the adjusted masks “to better understand the limitations of the new procedures,” a Navy spokeswoman said on April 21. “This was one flight out of 92 flown over the two days.

“Based on feedback from the instructor pilots, we have implemented further precautionary measures,” she adds. “We [also] sent a team of engineers to Kingsville to inspect the aircraft.”

Instructor pilots have already reported concerns about the new mask configuration being used, a congressional staffer with knowledge of the issue says. Pilots are finding it uncomfortable to breathe through the modified mask. Another problem is that the new system requires the pilot to re-hook the Obogs if he or she needs to use the emergency oxygen, which is not ideal.

“We are re-evaluating the new mask configuration based on feedback aircrew conveyed after their flights,” the Navy says. “Safety is our priority; we will ensure that all mitigations are implemented, required procedural changes identified and communicated with all our aviators.”

The 29-year-old training aircraft, based on the British Aerospace Hawk, typically can fly higher than 42,000 ft...." [QUE?]
U.S. Navy Further Limits T-45 Flying To 5,000 ft. | Defense content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/defense/us-navy-further-limits-t-45-flying-5000-ft)
_______________________________
T-45C NATOPS "4.1.2 Altitude Limits. Maximum altitude is 41,000 feet MSL."
http://www.filefactory.com/file/5kfa9p6vrkg7/A1-T45AC-NFM-000.pdf (17.5Mb)

SpazSinbad

24th Apr 2017, 18:18

Interesting factoid 'cabin pressure' (along with an error not cited) in this article: 24 Apr 2017
"...Hornets, F/A-18E-F Super Hornets and EA-18G Growlers. On March 31, though, the Navy canceled 94 T-45C Goshawk trainer jet flights due to concerns about the potential for PEs, and on April 5 Commander of Naval Air Forces Vice Adm. Mike Shoemaker announced an operational pause for the T-45s. That three-day pause turned into a 12-day pause, and when flights resumed last week the Navy had identified a temporary fix that would allow students to fly about 75 percent of the mission sets in their syllabus – but they cannot fly above 10,000 feet cabin pressure and cannot land on aircraft carriers until a permanent solution is identified...." https://news.usni.org/2017/04/24/navy-directs-30-day-review-physiological-episodes
"...2.18.2 Cockpit Pressurization System.
Cockpit pressurization is controlled by the pressure control valve and its slave discharge valve. These two servo controlled discharge valves restrict the discharge of air from the cockpit to maintain cockpit pressure at the required differential. Pressurization commences at 5,000 feet MSL and increases approximately linearly with altitude until the full differential pressure of 4 psi is attained at 40,000 feet MSL...." http://www.filefactory.com/file/5kfa9p6vrkg7/A1-T45AC-NFM-000.pdf (17.5Mb)
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/T-45%20Cockpit%20Pressurization%20Schedule%20NATOPSforum.gif~o riginal (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/T-45%20Cockpit%20Pressurization%20Schedule%20NATOPSforum.gif.h tml)

glad rag

24th Apr 2017, 22:36

So their Broken! OBOGS and structure???

glad rag

24th Apr 2017, 22:38

[QUOTE=SpazSinbad;9748585]HolyMoly Batman! More T-45C restrictions - 5K feet and 2G limit.

Prep for F35 conversion?

SpazSinbad

27th Apr 2017, 19:42

U.S. Navy Orders 30-Day Review of T-45, F/A-18 Incidents 25 Apr 2017 Bill Carey
"...On April 18, the Navy said that it has assembled an Aero-Medical Crisis Action Team (A-CAT) consisting of flight doctors, physiologists, toxicologists, engineers and specialists from both Navy component units and the U.S. Air Force’s 711th Human Performance Wing at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio....

...According to the A-CAT release, the Air Force has offered to provide the Navy with an in-line air quality sensor previously approved for use on the F-16 Fighting Falcon for use on the T-45." U.S. Navy Orders 30-Day Review of T-45, F/A-18 Incidents | Defense News: Aviation International News (http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2017-04-25/us-navy-orders-30-day-review-t-45-f/18-incidents)

SpazSinbad

7th May 2017, 09:16

Cockpit Oxygen Episodes Sideline Navy Pilots Fighting ISIS Hope Hodge Seck
05 May 2017 "ABOARD THE USS GEORGE H. W. BUSH, Persian Gulf -- The U.S.S. George H. W. Bush in January became the first East Coast-based carrier to deploy with a specialized piece of medical equipment aboard: a hyperbaric chamber, or "transportable recompression system," designed to treat pilots who experience hypoxia-like symptoms in the cockpit. Fewer than four months into the deployment, it has already been used twice for that purpose....

...In both incidents, the pilots involved were fortunate in that the episodes occurred near the carrier, allowing them to land quickly and seek treatment. If an episode had begun above an urban ground fight over Iraq or Syria, the available options might have been more limited, and certainly more complex. Having the recompression chamber aboard to treat pilots' symptoms was a measure that emerged from aviators' feedback, McCall said....

...McCall said the decision to deploy the system -- an egg-shaped pod six to seven feet long -- aboard the Bush was made just weeks before the carrier departed port. "That would not have happened without a dialogue from aviators in squadrons right to the three-star level," he said. "I'll be honest, we've moved that dialogue fairly quickly."

Other mitigation and detection measures also represent firsts for the carrier. McCall said the carrier was the first to deploy its fighters equipped with "slam sticks," small devices that measure cockpit air pressure and other factors, and can provide diagnostics following a mission....

...Another measure, designed to help pilots detect cockpit problems before they can physically feel them, is a true improvisation: the wearing of commercially available Garmin watches, equipped with altimeters and barometric sensors, that can be set to sound alarms when certain thresholds are reached...." Cockpit Oxygen Episodes Sideline Navy Pilots Fighting ISIS | Military.com (http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/05/05/cockpit-oxygen-episodes-sideline-navy-pilots-fighting-isis.html)

SpazSinbad

7th May 2017, 09:52

For the faint of heart or short of breath & hyperventilating - the F-35 OBOGS is made by HONEYWELL:
“Existing applications of OBOGS
Honeywell systems have been in service for over 20 years and are currently used by many Air Forces worldwide on aircraft which include:
• JSF F-35 • Eurofighter • F-22 • Hawk LIF • Nimrod • Gripen • PC-21 • B-1B • B-2B”
https://aerocontent.honeywell.com/aero/common/documents/myaerospacecatalog-documents/Defense_Brochures-documents/Life_Support_Systems.pdf (4Mb)

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/F-35honeywellOBOGSforum.png~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/F-35honeywellOBOGSforum.png.html)

SpazSinbad

15th May 2017, 19:22

Navy Reviews Physiological Episodes (http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=100051) 24 Apr 2017

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWP9kXxQp-I

SpazSinbad

8th Jun 2017, 08:51

Navy, Marines Still Struggling with T-45C Trainer Oxygen System Failures 07 Jun 2017 Sam LaGrone
"...the Navy is considering replacing today’s OBOGS with an older liquid oxygen system (LOX) to provide air to pilots, but he called that a “longer-term solution.” Grosklags said he needs something to get the Goshawks back in the air in a matter of weeks, whereas the LOX solution could take months.

USNI News previously reported that LOX, or bottled oxygen, has helped cease the physical symptoms of hypoxia – headache, tingly fingers, grogginess – during physiological episodes on the F/A-18A-D Hornets, F/A-18E-F Super Hornets and EA-18G Growlers, giving pilots about 10 minutes to safely land the jet. When hypoxia occurred on a T-45, though, the use of bottled oxygen didn’t always end the symptoms, meaning that LOX is not a valid solution for T-45s right now....

...And still, while mitigation measures are underway for the trainers, the enduring mystery remains of why pilots are suffering troubling and increasing physiological episodes in not only the Goshawks but also in the Navy’s fleet of F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and EA-18G Growler fleets as well.

“This system has worked fine for 20-plus years. Something happened,” Davis said “It’s the same box in the [AV-8B] Harrier. It’s the same OBOGS box and we don’t have a problem in Harriers. So what’s different? What is different in the T-45s?”

The results of a fleet-wide study into the physiological episode issue — led by U.S Pacific Fleet commander Adm. Scott Swift — is due to do be briefed later this month."
https://news.usni.org/2017/06/07/navy-marines-still-struggling-t-45-trainer-oxygen-system-failures

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/T-45CpsychoEpsTable.gif~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/T-45CpsychoEpsTable.gif.html)

Lonewolf_50

8th Jun 2017, 19:03

This is the part that has me still scratching my head:
This system has worked fine for 20-plus years. Something happened,” Davis said “It’s the same box in the [AV-8B] Harrier. It’s the same OBOGS box and we don’t have a problem in Harriers. So what’s different? What is different in the T-45s? I have a few sources that I can still probe and have discovered that they aren't talking. Interesting.

While I recall having met Vice Adm. Paul Grosklags some years ago when he was a squadron CO, I'm not on his Christmas card list. Too bad, I'd live to sit and have a coffee with him and chew the fat on this one.

SpazSinbad

9th Jun 2017, 20:21

IF LOX installed then there are other issues for pilots such as Pure Oxygen Under Pressure “absorption atelectasis” - one of the fun aspects of the A-4 series. COUGH COUGH COUGH [once was good enough however YMMV] then the VALSALVA MANEUVER.
“...a high concentration of oxygen at low altitudes can lead to “absorption atelectasis,” in which too much oxygen can wash away necessary nitrogen within the lungs and cause lung tissue to collapse.”... USAF F-22 Cockpit Anomaly Studies Continue | AWIN content from Aviation Week (http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_09_24_2012_p27-497809.xml)

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/LOXposterUSNforum.jpg~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/LOXposterUSNforum.jpg.html)

Bevo

9th Jun 2017, 23:29

If they install a LOX system would they not also install a Diluter Demand System type system?

SpazSinbad

10th Jun 2017, 04:16

Bevo

10th Jun 2017, 13:43

'Bevo' you may be familiar with the Sea Venom OR Macchi MB326H oxygen systems which mixed pressurized cabin air and oxygen. The RNZAF A-4K KAHU update changed the LOX system to one similar to the above systems (with same mask) as indicated in attached GIF graphic & now PDF page from the RNZAF KAHU 'NATOPS'/flight manual.

Yes I am very familiar with the diluter type oxygen system and regulator control, as the F-4s and early F-15C which I flew had such a system. Hench in response to the statement : IF LOX installed then there are other issues for pilots such as Pure Oxygen Under Pressure “absorption atelectasis”

SpazSinbad

10th Jun 2017, 14:55

The KIWI A-4K KAHU LOX change was from the earlier A-4 wide AFAIK LOX system which was 'pure oxygen under pressure' - no cabin air dilution. This is the system being contemplated perhaps however no details have been provided AFAIK. From what I have read and seen in online forums the KAHU LOX system with cabin air dilution was good. I myself flew the Sea Venom & Macchi MB326H systems (including A4G LOX system). Personally the A-4 LOX system was not problematic and I coughed (with “absorption atelectasis”) only a few times however I was constantly VALSALVERING on the ground as were all the other A4G pilots. It could get painful at night until ears cleared with the maneuver. Attached are 3 pages about the LOX system in an A4G from the A-4E/F/G NATOPS manual + 4 pages from the RAN/RAAF Macchi MB326H flight manual about the oxygen system therein.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/A-4EFGoxygenLOXsystemCautionNATOPS.gif~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/A-4EFGoxygenLOXsystemCautionNATOPS.gif.html)

Bevo

11th Jun 2017, 00:47

The two Navy aircraft I flew, the F/A-18A and the F-14A, both had a system similar to the A4G. I very seldom had problems and those were mainly having my ears “pop” sometime after flight.

I never really understood why the US Navy did not use the diluter demand system type system. I believe I was told at one time that they used the constant O2 without dilution because of the ability to breathe in the water after ditching. I find that hard to believe as both the above aircraft had a small emergency oxygen bottle as part of the ejection seat which would have been available for those circumstances.

SpazSinbad

11th Jun 2017, 01:19

Cannot fathom the USN choice either as the LOX system had many dangers (not all cited in this forum). When new a few pilots from the prop era lit up ciggies in the cockpit only to be burnt to a crisp. My A4G instructor demonstrated the 'flame' effect by hoping out after flight to go off a safe distance to then light up a cigarette and blow through it producing a prodigious flame - this same demo cited in a classroom lecture in USofA.

The first A4G lost from a cold catapult shot had the pilot go in (with canopy jettisoned) underwater breathing that emergency oxy whilst MELBOURNE passed overhead as he scraped down the side still sinking. Once he heard the screws go by he left the cockpit and the emergency oxy behind, inflating mae west to 'pop up' behind the carrier only a little worse for wear.

Attached is a 3 page PDF about potential 'air-mix' system for A4Gs after a fatal TA4G crash at sea with particular pilot LEUT Ralph McMillan suffering badly from 'the cough' which had been investigated earlier by our resident 'A4G flying doctor' LEUT Michael Flynn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qcgjvln1SB0

Three Wire

11th Jun 2017, 02:54

During my time Sinbad, a change to the Kahu system was contemplated. We went so far as to discuss it with the Kiwi pilots and engineers at squadron level.

The change never happened probably for something as prosaic as having too many A13 masks in stock.

Personally, once I learnt the A4 cough, and developed the yawn and pop on the walk in to the hangar, I was never bothered by the LOX under constant flow. Only problem was the little oxy burn beside my nose while at sea (with beard to save water).

SpazSinbad

11th Jun 2017, 03:32

'Three Wire' give me a clue about 'who are U' please. I can guess (not here) but anyway your beard probably helped with 'some cabin air' nestpas? You shoulda smoked - that would help with the nasal burn. :-)

Good to know the change was contemplated (as indicated in the 'SKULL' report) but I was out by mid 1975 so did not hear anything further until seeing that report from the National Archive a few years ago now.

Changing to 'mix-air' and having the Thomson-Ferranti Gyro Gunsight would have been nice changes - but beanie counters always win - sadly.

Oxygenation of soft tissue was more rapid at altitude, my ear popping could wake me after midnight with some pain. LESSON: 'Go Low & Go Slow' :} (sounds like the current RAN FAA motto). :E

jimjim1

13th Jun 2017, 02:01

"US F-35 fighter jets grounded indefinitely at Arizona base"

Luke Air Force Base northwest of Phoenix is home to the 56th Fighter Wing. The base cancelled local flying operations for its F-35A Lightning II aircraft due to five incidents in which pilots experienced symptoms resembling hypoxia, or oxygen deprivation, the Air Force spokesman, Captain Mark Graff, said at the Pentagon on Friday.

US F-35 fighter jets grounded indefinitely at Arizona base (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/12/us-f-35-jets-grounded-indefinitely-arizona-base/)

Not all F-35s seem to be affected.

SpazSinbad

14th Jun 2017, 00:59

Gos Hawk (geddit) problems continue - no cough but.

Navy Student Pilots Enter 3rd Month Without T-45 Training Flights | Military.com (http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/06/13/navy-student-pilots-enter-3rd-month-without-t45-training-flights.html)

Still a mystery: http://www.janes.com/article/71401/us-navy-struggling-to-diagnose-t-45-breathing-gas-issues

glad rag

14th Jun 2017, 13:56

"US F-35 fighter jets grounded indefinitely at Arizona base"

US F-35 fighter jets grounded indefinitely at Arizona base (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/12/us-f-35-jets-grounded-indefinitely-arizona-base/)

Not all F-35s seem to be affected.

Do you actually believe that?

Remember the Official USAF policy to those who "decry" the "project"...

SpazSinbad

15th Jun 2017, 00:16

DECRY is that like DECAF all barque & no bight? BUTT anyways...

Aviation Leaders Still Unsure Why Marines Not Facing Same Hypoxia Issues as Navy, Air Force 14 Jun 2017 Megan Eckstein
"The armed services are still unsure why Navy and Air Force pilots are struggling with their Onboard Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS) while the Marine Corps – which uses the exact same systems – has had no problems, the Marines’ top aviator told reporters. Not a single naval flight student has flown since late March, after a spike in troubles with the T-45C Goshawk trainer aircraft that led to hypoxia, when the pilot receives either a lack of oxygen or contaminated oxygen....

...Lt. Gen. Jon Davis, deputy commandant of the Marine Corps for aviation, told reporters after a Senate Armed Services seapower subcommittee hearing on Tuesday that the Marine Corps has had zero instances of hypoxia with its F-35Bs or with its AV-8B Harriers, which use the same OBOGS as the T-45C.

“Nothing on the B right now, so we’re not suspending flight ops. We’re watching very closely what’s going on in the Air Force, understanding – almost like the same OBOGS onboard oxygen generating system that’s in the T-45 is in the Harrier, we have no problems in the Harrier. So it’s one of those things [Naval Air Systems Command] is looking at; is it because we’re pulling air from a different part of the motor? So looking at that, understanding what the differences are. But we haven’t had any problems with OBOGS.”

Asked by USNI News if the Marines maintain or operate their OBOGS differently than their sister services, Davis replied, “we are looking at all that.” He noted that not all Air Force F-35A squadrons have experienced problems, just those at Luke AFB, so it would take time to understand what is creating that situation....

...Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) is conducting a PE Review on behalf of the Navy and Marine Corps, but NAVAIR Commander Vice Adm. Paul Grosklags said in the hearing that “we’re not doing well on the diagnosis” of the problem. He noted that NAVAIR is simultaneously looking for the root cause and pursuing 10 to 12 “alerting and protective measures” that would make it safe for students to return to the T-45 even without understanding why the OBOGS is failing.

“It is our plan that once we are comfortable that we’ve got those individual items all in place for every single aircraft and air crew down at CNATRA (Chief of Naval Air Training), that is the point where we will consider resuming the training syllabus,” Grosklags told the subcommittee, adding that he hoped that would happen in a matter of weeks rather than months but that a bit more testing of some of the items was still needed.

Finding the root cause of the problem has been a much less successful endeavor so far, though.

“To date we have been unable to find any smoking guns. For T-45s specifically … to date we have not been able to discover a toxin or a contaminant in the breathing gas despite our testing,” the vice admiral said.

“We have taken several of the aircraft from CNATRA, from the training squadron, brought them up to [Naval Air Station Patuxent River] and we have torn some of them apart, to the extent that we took every component in that gas path, that breathing gas path if you will, on the aircraft, starting with the engine and going to the entire system, inspecting all the piping in between, all the way up to the mask and the vest that the aircrew wear. We’ve subjected each one of those individual components to extremes of testing, extremes of environmental conditions in excess of what we would ever expect to see in the aircraft, and we still have not been able to find what we would consider a proximate cause of contamination or something being released into that gas path. We are also doing testing at the system level, we are flying entire aircraft – again, these are aircraft that had issues down at CNATRA – we’re flying entire aircraft with additional instrumentation on the aircraft trying to detect some in-flight real-time. To date we have not been able to find that root cause.”..."

https://news.usni.org/2017/06/14/aviation-leaders-still-unsure-marines-not-facing-hypoxia-issues-navy-air-force

SpazSinbad

15th Jun 2017, 03:23

Navy Can’t Find ‘Culprit’ Of T-45s Suspected Hypoxia... 13 Jun 2017 Colin Clark
"WASHINGTON: The Navy, hasn’t been able to process 25 prospective pilots for each of the last three months as it struggles to find the cause of what may be hypoxia episodes afflicting many T-45 pilots, has not been able to ferret out what is causing them to suffer from headaches and other symptoms.

Vice Adm. Paul Grosklags, the head of Naval Air Systems Command, testified to the Senate Armed Services seapower subcommittee this afternoon that the Navy has analyzed all the systems feeding air to its pilots in T-45s and has “not been able to discover a culprit.” So far 75 pilots have not been able to qualify.

You could see the frustration on the admiral’s face as he spoke. Problems like this can be very difficult to figure out — it took the Air Force several years before it reliably demonstrated it had fixed hypoxia problems with the F-22 — and, as you can see from the chart below, there have been sharp increases in reported incidents since 2014 for the T-45s and all but one of the F-18 models.

Even so, Grosklags told the subcommittee he thought pilots would be back to flight training in “weeks, not months” thanks to an array of prophylactic measures the Navy plans to implement so pilots can identify problems before they become life threatening...." Navy Can?t Find ?Culprit? Of T-45s Suspected Hypoxia; Mattis Pledges Afghan Strategy « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary (http://breakingdefense.com/2017/06/navy-cant-find-culprit-of-t-45s-suspected-hypoxia-mattis-pledges-afghan-strategy/)
http://breakingdefense.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2017/04/image001-1-1024x761.png

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/PhysiologicalEpisodesUSNaircraftForum.gif~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/PhysiologicalEpisodesUSNaircraftForum.gif.html)

SpazSinbad

16th Jun 2017, 06:24

Getting some feedback here about the awfulness of the T-45C & Shornet OBOGaLOGs.
Navy Review: Oxygen Systems Too Complex; Reporting, Investigating Methods ‘Flawed’ 15 Jun 2017 Megan Eckstein
"A comprehensive review of the rising number of physiological episodes and the Navy’s response to those PEs determined the Navy’s oxygen-generation and cabin pressure systems are too complex for reliable performance, and that the process for reporting and investigating the root cause of physiological episodes is “fundamentally flawed,” according to the review released this afternoon.

U.S. Pacific Fleet Commander Adm. Scott Swift, who led the review effort, summed up the challenge of addressing the ongoing physiological episodes by writing in his cover letter, “this is a complex issue, one without a single cause, and therefore, without a single solution. The only common thread running through all of these cases is that aircrew were physically affected.”...

...The report also criticizes the OBOGS and the Environmental Control System (ECS) themselves.

“The integration of the on-board oxygen generation system (OBOGS) in the T-45 and FA-18 is inadequate to consistently provide high quality breathing air. To varying degrees, neither aircraft is equipped to continuously provide clean, dry air to OBOGS – a design specification for the device. The net result is contaminants can enter aircrew breathing air provided by OBOGS and potentially induce hypoxia,” reads the report.

“The environmental control system (ECS) aboard T-45 and FA-18 providing cockpit pressurization is a complex aggregate of sub-components, all of which must function for the system to work as a whole. Aging parts, inadequate testing methodologies and numerous other factors are impacting Fleet ECS reliability, inducing several instances of Decompression Sickness (DCS).”...

...The comprehensive review takes aim at the processes currently used to identify and study PEs in the fleet: from a flawed reporting system that relies on self-diagnosis, to an “engineering-centric PR mitigation effort in which potential causes can be dismissed without full adjudication,” to NAVAIR’s “organizational alignment that does not reflect the complex, integrated human-machine nature of the PE problem” and looks at each component individually rather than studying the entire set of forces acting upon aircrews....

...“We do not have a water separator mechanism in the OBOGS system for the T-45, where we do on similar OBOGS systems in high-performance jets. If you talk to anybody who studies oxygen systems on an airplane, it’s very clear that you need clean, dry air that is being delivered to the air crew in the right pressure and the right volume. Without a water separator in that system, we believe that there’s a potential for water moisture to get in there and not provide the effective dry air that could cause issues with the right pressure and volume. So installing the water separator is critical, so we’re on path to do that. We’ve got 25 or so that are installed and we’re on a path to complete that by the end of the summer, early fall. So that’s one,” the admiral told reporters today.

“Another one that continues to the water moisture in the line in the bleed air shutoff valve that is right at the exit point for the air that comes off the engine and starts into the OBOGS system. For a lot of reasons, years ago that bleed air valve was causing problems because it was shutting off without warning, those sorts of things, and so we either hard-wired them open or took them out altogether. So our analysis is we need to go back and re-engineer, redesign that bleed air valve so that it operates correctly and actually purges the system from water moisture coming off the engine. That is in the works and those valves will be delivered in a tapered way.”..." [PLENTY MORE AT JUMP]
https://news.usni.org/2017/06/15/navy-review-oxygen-systems-too-complex-reporting-investigating-methods-flawed

SpazSinbad

16th Jun 2017, 08:41

The fix is future... READ it all at the JUMP.

US Navy seeks next-generation oxygen system for T-45s 15 Jun 2017 Leigh Giangreco
"The US Navy and industry will pursue a next-generation on board oxygen generator system (OBOGS) while the service implements fixes to mitigate persistent oxygen and pressurization issues on its Boeing/BAE Systems T-45 trainers and Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets....

...In parallel with ongoing mitigation efforts, industry will install breathing air pressure warning for aircraft fitted with the solid state oxygen monitor (CRU-123) this month and develop a next-generation OBOGS known as GGU-25.

T-45’s current OBOGS is made up of Cobham’s oxygen concentrator (GGU-7), an oxygen monitor (CRU-99) and an aircrew-worn breathing air regulator (CRU- 103).

The CRU-123 is a digital upgrade to the current CRU-99 and will be able to deliver information on both temperature and oxygen pressure to pilots, Moran says. Cobham is looking at the redesigned OBOGS as a potential replacement for the legacy system if the navy’s mitigation efforts do not work, he adds. The effort also includes adding a larger capacity emergency oxygen system on the T-45 to eliminate the current way the navy uses on board oxygen today....

...Meanwhile, the Navy is sharing its findings on hypoxia issues with the US Air Force, which recently experienced oxygen problems on Lockheed Martin F-35As at Luke Air Force Base, Arizona. The Defense Department has asked the navy for information on the hypoxia study and will determine whether the F-35 effort should merit an independent or can follow on the navy’s effort, Moran says." https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/us-navy-seeks-next-generation-oxygen-system-for-t-4-438277/

SpazSinbad

16th Jun 2017, 17:46

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY 10 Jun 2017 USN
This Comprehensive Review (CR) examined the facts, circumstances and processes surrounding the recent Physiological Episodes (PEs) involving T-45 and FA-18 aircrew, including how these issues have been addressed...." http://www.navy.mil/local/pes/Comprehensive%20Review%20PE.pdf (6.1Mb)

ORAC

17th Jun 2017, 19:43

Pardon the dreadful pun.....

The Navy is Issuing Every F/A-18 Pilot A Garmin Watch. Here's Why. (http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/06/16/the-navy-is-issuing-every-f-a-18-pilot-a-garmin-watch-heres-why.html)

SpazSinbad

18th Jun 2017, 02:11

Over the years I have given up my 'pilot' faskination with watches. RAN FAA had a good reliable easy to read large watch face & that was all that was needed then in cockpit - not even a stopwatch. Anyway today the range of watches - 'mazin'.

fēnix® 3 HR (more expensive at $550 but more likely given modes)
https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/545480 OR https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/160512
"...The built-in altimeter provides elevation data to accurately monitor ascent and descent..."

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/Garmin3HR%20fenix%20Watch%20Altitude%20QNHforum.jpg~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/Garmin3HR%20fenix%20Watch%20Altitude%20QNHforum.jpg.html)

SpazSinbad

20th Jun 2017, 21:14

Could This Next-Gen Cockpit System End Hypoxia-Like Incidents? 20 Jun 2017 Hope Hodge Seck

https://www.defensetech.org/2017/06/20/cockpit-system-end-hypoxia-incidents/

SpazSinbad

28th Jun 2017, 17:23

Probably more info than any perplexed person needs but hey I'll look for a link to CRS report - huh - only two pages but lots o'links:

https://news.usni.org/2017/06/28/report-congress-breath-military-aircraft-oxygen-issues#more-26487

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/IN10723.pdf (129Kb)

SpazSinbad

29th Jun 2017, 15:03

Lawmakers Slam U.S. Navy For ‘Insufficient’ Hypoxia Response 28 Jun 2017 Lara Seligman

Lawmakers Slam U.S. Navy For ?Insufficient? Hypoxia Response | Defense content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/defense/lawmakers-slam-us-navy-insufficient-hypoxia-response)

SpazSinbad

30th Jun 2017, 22:22

Looks as though at least one cause for the T-45C oxy problems has been found.
Navy T-45 Trainers Will Return To Flight In July With Air Supply Fix 30 Jun 2017 Sydney J. Freedberg Jr.
"...One mystery was that the T-45 used the exact same OBOGS, built by Cobham, as other aircraft that were having no problems. Now, Navy investigators believe they have traced at least part of the problem: While the oxygen generator itself seems okay, the T-45s didn’t have anything installed to scrub excess moisture from the air going into the OBOGS...." List of fixes follows: Navy T-45 Trainers Will Return To Flight In July With Air Supply Fix « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary (http://breakingdefense.com/2017/06/navy-t-45-trainers-will-return-to-flight-in-july-with-air-supply-fix/)

SpazSinbad

17th Jul 2017, 13:24

This is a never-ending story with puzzlements aplenty & it will keep Lara going nevertheless.

Toxic Air From T-45 Engine May Be Poisoning U.S. Navy Pilots | Defense content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/defense/toxic-air-t-45-engine-may-be-poisoning-us-navy-pilots)

SpazSinbad

9th Aug 2017, 22:01

Callsign of Capt. Sara Joyner was 'BATTLE AXE' when at top of the CAW - you go girl! :} http://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/01/07/navy-welcomes-first-female-air-wing-commander.html?comp=7000023468025&rank=1

UPDATED: Navy Seeing Success Collecting Data on Physiological Episodes; Taps Former Air Wing Commander to Lead Effort 09 Aug 2017 Megan Eckstein
"...oxygen pressure monitors were put on several dozen T-45 trainers, and students and instructors have been flying with them all summer. “We’re getting those warnings that we never had before, so indications of low oxygen pressure in certain flight regimes,” he said. “What we’ve got to get away from is reliance on [individual perceptions and self-reporting], and more from data. So putting sensors on these airplanes so we can collect data and get a richer understanding of what’s going on.”

With the additional sensors on the planes, “we’re able to collect the kind of data that may – and I say may – give us some insight into what would be causing lack of oxygen to the pilot, which causes hypoxic events. So I think that’s all good. And there are other monitors that we’ve put in place in the T-45s. A whole host of what we would call refresh rates on the F-18s that we hope to bring back some youth in the Environmental Control System on the F-18, see if that helps reduce the number of PE events, pressurization events especially. So all of that data is being collected while we continue to fly, and we’re keeping a very close look on PE events and what happens,” Moran said. “We have response teams that go out now; if a pilot experiences an event, we know what protocols to provide to both take care of the aircrew but also to measure what happened to try to make some determination about root cause. Root-cause analysis continues, and it’s mining down into many different branches of evidence to find out what we can to try to determine what is the true cause. And we may find out that there are multiple causes here and we’ll have to address all of them.”

[Capt. Sara] Joyner comes to this new job from serving as the Navy Senate Liaison in the Office of Legislative Affairs, but her background is as an F/A-18 pilot who commanded Carrier Air Wing (CVW) 3 and Strike Fighter Squadron (VFA) 105. The 1989 U.S. Naval Academy graduate and Maryland native began her career flying the A-4E Skyhawk before moving to the Hornet. She has also worked in the air warfare directorate as the Joint Strike Fighter requirements officer – working directly for Moran, who was the air warfare director at the time – and she was named a senior fellow in the CNO Strategic Studies Group.

“She’s got all the right things. If I had to go pluck somebody out by their resume, I’d go, well that’s a pretty good pick right there,” Moran said. “I know her personally and have a lot of confidence in her. I know she’ll do a great job.” https://news.usni.org/2017/08/09/navy-taps-former-air-wing-commander-hornet-pilot-lead-physiological-episodes-research-prevention-effort

SpazSinbad

12th Sep 2017, 03:43

Another SAFETY video from HOOK17 will have OBOGalogs innit with the new OXYchief speakin'.

Safety Centre Briefing
https://livestream.com/wab/tailhook2017/videos/162480333

'2nd half' (starts 9min 30sec) of video will have 'CLUTCH' Joyner speaking about PEs along with another chap + questions.

Relevant questions about PEs stop at minute 36.

GRAPHICs: PE Investigation & Adjudication Process & F-18 + T-45C potential solutions

BEagle

12th Sep 2017, 19:07

Another SAFETY video from HOOK17 will have OBOGalogs innit with the new OXYchief speakin'.

Would you please translate that boong-speak into English?

Thank you...

SpazSinbad

12th Sep 2017, 21:29

'boong-speak' luvit can I use that? Bit racist but. :} Did you watch video - as LedZep sings in their song 'all will be revealed'.

SpazSinbad

18th Sep 2017, 16:51

NavSpeak CAPT Sara Joyner excerpt from aforementioned HOOK '17 Video above excerpt. [did not realise this video not seen in IE 11]

CAPT Joyner USN Safety Centre Probe PE F-18/T-45C HOOK '17

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkpkIC7fPYI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkpkIC7fPYI

SpazSinbad

30th Sep 2017, 01:59

Studs are back sucking O2 like champs with extra supervision....
Navy trainers resume flying with oxygen monitoring upgrades 30 Sep 2017 Leigh Giangreco
"The US Navy has cleared the Boeing T-45 Goshawk fleet to resume regular flights after a five-month grounding caused by contamination concerns over the system that generates and supplies oxygen to the training jet's pilots.

Student pilots can now resume training, but only on aircraft outfitted with a digital upgrade to the CRU-99 oxygen monitor, called the solid-state oxygen monitor (CRU-123), which provides information on temperature and oxygen pressure.

All T-45 aircraft will have the CRU-123 installed by the end of the second quarter of 2018, a navy spokesman tells FlightGlobal. As of 15 September, the Navy modified 111 of 170 active aircraft with CRU-123s.

After a June review revealed the T-45’s OBOGS does not have a water separator mechanism, which helps prevent contaminants releasing into the aircrew breathing air, the navy also decided to install the separators on the trainer aircraft. Out of the 197 T-45s in the Navy’s fleet, the service has installed a water separator on 146. None of the trainers are able to fly without the CRU-123 or water separator modifications, Joyner says...." https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/navy-trainers-resume-flying-with-oxygen-monitoring-u-441678/

SpazSinbad

30th Sep 2017, 13:30

Oxy - the gift that keeps on giving - at least for the T-45C. Yep and we do not fly with a cold nor when feeling unwell? (hangovers excepted? :} LOX the cure)

Cockpit Episodes Continue After Navy T-45s Resume Training Flights 29 Sep 2017 Hope Hodge Seck
"After a series of mitigating measures implemented in August, Navy T-45 Goshawks are back on duty as fighter trainers officials said Friday. But a handful of physiological episodes in the cockpit since then — the very problem that forced the Navy to place stringent limits on T-45s in April — have leaders taking a closer look at the role subjective human factors play in the in-flight incidents....

...New episodes
Since those measures were implemented in August, however, about four additional cockpit episodes have been documented. These episodes, Joyner said, share a telling commonality: in the two-seater aircraft, one of the aircrew experienced problems, and the other did not. In addition, she said, measurement devices reported that oxygen and air pressure remained at normal levels.

“When we went through, we were able to really review and find human factors and also physiological responses when people are under stress and how they breathe. And we’re working right now to make sure we’re incorporating that training as well for the aviators,” Joyner said. “So I would say more of what we’ve seen to date has been physiologically based response, but the aircraft overall has seemed to be well supporting the human in the loop.”

In addition, she said, new measurement devices have yet to find any evidence of cockpit air contaminants that would present a concern for aircrew. With recent incidents, Joyner said, evidence points to the human rather than the machine as the source of the issue....

...‘No Fixing the Human’
For those on the Navy’s team to diagnose and fix physiological episodes, the determination that human factors are sometimes the source presents its own levels of complexity....

...Efforts continue to pinpoint the cause of the surge in cockpit episodes affecting the T-45, as well as causes of hypoxia-like episodes in the F/A-18 Hornet. But as officials probe both human and mechanical factors contributing to problems in the air, it appears one outcome of the Navy’s assessment may be a more cautious approach to entering the cockpit in the first place.

“Maybe there are times when they shouldn’t go in a jet and they can self-recognize before they take off the ground that this is not the day for them to go airborne,” Joyner said. “It’s sort of a dual approach.”

https://www.defensetech.org/2017/09/29/cockpit-episodes-continue-navy-t-45s-resume-training-flights/

fallmonk

2nd Oct 2017, 17:55

Just saw this in the news
RIP to can only hope not related to above story's.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/local/2017/10/01/monroe-sheriff-plane-crash-reported-tellico-plains/721602001/

Lonewolf_50

2nd Oct 2017, 19:11

Did you read the whole story, fallmonk? I did, and while this is very new as an event goes, the eyewitness statement leads me in a different direction. I will hold my peace and give it a few days to see what else arises.

Always a sad day when a "routine training flight" ends in us losing fellow pilots.

RIP. :(

SpazSinbad

4th Oct 2017, 03:20

Info about pilots killed in T-45C crash whilst Oxy/Cabin Pressure not likely cause:

https://news.usni.org/2017/10/03/navy-identifies-instructor-student-killed-t-45-crash-lt-patrick-ruth-lt-j-g-wallace-burch

gums

4th Oct 2017, 13:39

Salute!

TNX for "knowledgeable" posts, Wolf and Spaz.

The "eye witness" sighting indicates a low level nav mission. And one report from a local news outfit or sheriff stated wreckage was along a half mile of a road. So CFIT is not outta the question.

I wouldn't rule out the oxygen problem, as down real low and fast only one second of a problem can be fatal, as we know from our own personal experiences. Although there won't be much to analyze, toxicology is very advanced these days, and even back in the 80's we could tell lots about our departed buddies' physical state upon impact.

RIP

Gums sends...

SpazSinbad

6th Oct 2017, 02:35

Interesting detail in the ongoing 'pressurization issues' for the Hornet family.
"The Navy has identified a valve that may be causing problematic pressure changes in F/A-18E and F Super Hornets and E/A-18G Growlers during flight, said a Navy officer who is spearheading the service’s efforts to stop the glaring trend of failures in critical aircraft systems.

“We’re not declaring victory, but we are declaring that we found something to fix and we’re fixing it,” said Capt. Sara Joyner, who has been selected for advancement to rear admiral.

Meanwhile, the Navy has determined that problems that led to the grounding of T-45 training jets earlier this year stem from the aircraft’s small engine not producing enough oxygen flow for the pilots, said Joyner...." https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/10/04/valve-may-lead-to-cabin-pressure-problems-in-super-hornets-growlers/