Exchange pilots

[mopardave]

There was a piece in the local news recently regarding the Mirage IV that's been donated to Elvington. It got me thinking.......were V bomber pilots and navs ever involved in foreign exchanges and vice versa......or was that limited to FJ crew?
MD

[ICM]

Dave: Why ever do you think that only FJ crews might have gone on exchanges? When I did my tour in the early 70s (from the Air Transport Force), there were around 120 of us in the USA from all manner of flying and ground roles - plus others in Canada, Australia and elsewhere.

[mopardave]

Dave: Why ever do you think that only FJ crews might have gone on exchanges? When I did my tour in the early 70s (from the Air Transport Force), there were around 120 of us in the USA from all manner of flying and ground roles - plus others in Canada, Australia and elsewhere.


Ignorance ICM.......I've just never seen any reference to exchanges relating to anyone other than FJ crew. Thanks for enlightening me.

[MPN11]

We had a Luftwaffe fighter controller at West Drayton in the 70s, and a French AF Liaison Officer (ISTR h was FC as well) at HQ 11 Gp in the 80s. No idea how widespread the programmes are these days, of course.

[The Oberon]

There was a piece in the local news recently regarding the Mirage IV that's been donated to Elvington. It got me thinking.......were V bomber pilots and navs ever involved in foreign exchanges and vice versa......or was that limited to FJ crew?
MD

Interesting point Dave. I can remember KC135 - Victor tanker exchanges but I never heard of a nuclear rolled B52 - Vulcan exchange, did that ever happen?

[BEagle]

There was a B-52 pilot serving at Scampton during my time there in 1977-80.

[ancientaviator62]

The RAF Hercules fleet in my time always had several exchange pilots. 30 Sqn would always have a Luftwaffe pilot (in the earlier days even a Nav) as their exchange officer. Others would have them from the USA and Canada. Occasionally a French or Italian pilot would be on attachment but not on formal exchange.

[charliegolf]

Haven't you ever seen 'Thunderball'? Sheesh.

CG

[ShyTorque]

Haven't you ever seen 'Thunderball'? Sheesh.

CG

Which squadron was he on?

[mopardave]

There was a B-52 pilot serving at Scampton during my time there in 1977-80.


I suppose a more succinct way of asking that question would be.....did we ever trust a member of another air force (with nuclear weapons) with our nuclear weapons? If I'm straying into anything sensitive....my apologies.
MD

[Shackman]

Rotary as well - we had Australian and Canadian Chinook exchanges (one RAF pilot was killed in a Chinook crash in Australia), SAR with USCG and others, rest of SH force and CFS(H) seemed to be all over the place, with France, Germany, USAF, even more. We even had exchanges with the RN!

[Fitter2]

Ken Fitzroy, who some will remember flying some of the Fighter Collection at Duxford, was Transport Command (Hastings/Beverley and later Britannias); he did a tour in the USA SAC on KC135 tankers. 'I thought the Hastings take off was pedestrian until I discovered KC135'.

[Pontius Navigator]

The V Force problem was Noforn and UK Eyes.

I can't talk of the 70s, but in the 60s there was a nav rad at Lindholme, George Chabeau, a very intense instructor who taught the black science of servos and transmitters.

At 1 Gp the Ops 2 position was a USAF billet and he would cover for Ops 1 for leave. However he was not cleared for Eyes or Atomic and a post, a flt lt, Ops 1a was established to cover the gap.

At STC, Ops 2 there was also SAC. When QRA finished he thought it was a shame we no longer had an practice alert exercise so, off his own bat, he introduced Exercise Edith to replace Edom. I don't know how that panned out as I departed shortly after.

In the other direction I think we might have had RAF pilots with the B52 training wing. As TO said, there were tanker exchanges.

As for trusting with nuclear weapons, I think that was the problem with UK weapons. The other issue is the employment of non-UK nationals on UK operations. The Icelandic Cod War was a case in point with exchange officers on the Nimrod being individually cleared by their respective governments; they all were IIRC.

Similar concerns applied in the FI and GW. For instance the German Government forbad play in GW 1 for NATO AWAC crews.

[Tankertrashnav]

We had a Canadian exchange nav instructor at 2ANS at Gaydon in 1969. He went home in a blue uniform one Friday afternoon as Flight Lieutenant Yeager, RCAF and reappeared on the Monday morning in a green uniform as Captain Yeager, Canadian Defence Forces.

[chopper2004]

Theres probably been five and now six Tonka guys flying B-2A Spirit at Whiteman

RAF exchange pilot enters into the Spirit (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/raf-exchange-pilot-enters-into-the-spirit-13062014)

cheers

[oldbeefer]

Yes, I spent three years with the French Air Force on helicopters in the 70's - based in the Alps and around a 2 hr drive to the French Riviera!

[wiggy]

The V Force problem was Noforn and UK Eyes

Similar concerns applied in the FI .....


Yep, remember our US exchange officer (on a UK air defence squadron) being asked to leave the room prior to "highly sensitive" daily briefings about how the likes of 2 para were doing...........

[chopper2004]

Rotary as well - we had Australian and Canadian Chinook exchanges (one RAF pilot was killed in a Chinook crash in Australia), SAR with USCG and others, rest of SH force and CFS(H) seemed to be all over the place, with France, Germany, USAF, even more. We even had exchanges with the RN!

and also to USAF, there was an instructor pilot flying Pave Hawks with the 58th SOW at Kirtland. In the Rotorheads forum, in the Nostalgia thread theres a phoot of a Captain Phil Stinson USAF, with his Gazelle painted with 200 years of indepen

PPRuNe Forums - The Rotary Nostalgia Thread (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/print-419023-rotary-nostalgia-thread-106.html)

Dont think the USCG post exists any more due to sans mil SAR now....but I could be wrong and still take SHF pilots

and of course exchange with MAWTS-1

cheers

[ShyTorque]

Yes, I spent three years with the French Air Force on helicopters in the 70's - based in the Alps and around a 2 hr drive to the French Riviera!

Probably the only way to get a decent overseas posting these days... ;)

[oldbeefer]

Shy - sadly the post no longer exists!

[ian16th]

Yes, I spent three years with the French Air Force on helicopters in the 70's - based in the Alps and around a 2 hr drive to the French Riviera!
Even better was a tour with the RAF Liaison Party at Istres/Orange.
Much closer to the beach :)

[teeteringhead]

There used be a rumour of a mover and some air persons based in Hawaii - Hickham? - who were there for a once-a-week truck.

Now THAT would have been a tour .........

[Barksdale Boy]

As ever PN posts authoritatively. As Beags says there was always a USAF major on the Vulcan OCU, culminating with the unforgettable J---- n H----ng--n, with whom B--l D--t and I memorably shared a snowhole on Cairngorm in Jan 1980. For the reasons PN details I don't recall squadron exchanges, but certainly some of our guys filled tanker slots and appointments on their equivalent of the GSU, Central Evaluation something or other.

[Dougie M]

There was a German pilot on exchange with the C130s, Wolfgang X***** who declared after an overseas Op where he was not allowed to proceed beyond the Bahamas: "I now understand how you won the War. You practice chaos in peacetime!"

[Pontius Navigator]

TH, there was a nav rad at Lindholme, circa 1963/64, whose name escapes me, but every week he would announce his posting to Hickham. Of course just wishful thinking.

One day he made the same announcement to the same derision only to say"No, I really am" and he was as the RAF man on the ground for the FEAF Western Reinforcement route.

[bunta130]

There are some great EO stories. One captain, who landed in Jersey for an air display, was first off the aircraft, and announced to the assembled senior gathering...'Good to be back'! You can guess his nationality....which is not always renowned for humour.

They were a good bunch.

Hope all is well Doug; I'm holding any stories about you until you cannot remember any about me!

[Pontius Navigator]

Bunta, or the nav at Finningley at the BoB cocktail party who, when someone apologized for the insensitive invitation responded, "ah, but without us you would not have an excuse for a party.

[Top Bunk Tester]

Invariably in the early 90's on 30 Sqn, when the a/c was captained by the Luftwaffe Exchange pilot, as we passed above Dover on a channel crossing route, one of the crew would call 'feet wet' and request permission to test the guns and by the time the a/c was 'feet dry' the Eng would have fashioned a gunsight from a paper cup and placed it on the front left instrument cowling. This was the same Hauptmann who entered a restaurant whilst night stopping Gutersloh (off base) and in broken English requested a table for himself and crew until we pointed out to him that he'd probably have more luck speaking Deutsch :)

[ancientaviator62]

I think the EO in the Jersey incident was wearing his full uniform when he left the a/c. When OP Corporate was building up the Luftwaffe EO one Udo S. manage to get a trip to ASI before the system decided it was not a good thing !

[The Oberon]

I think the EO in the Jersey incident was wearing his full uniform when he left the a/c. When OP Corporate was building up the Luftwaffe EO one Udo S. manage to get a trip to ASI before the system decided it was not a good thing !
A certain USAF exchange Victor pilot managed a couple of trips to ASI, even managed a short slot on a Black Buck trip. He had clearance, allegedly. Whether he got a SAM or not I couldn't say.

[ICM]

The USAF also had NOFORN and US Eyes Only ... but I found they didn't always seem to work:

1. The annual Ground Training refresher began with a reminder that it was classified NOFORN and I just sat there quietly each year.

2. I was sent to the first briefing on a new ADIZ procedure - and a week later had my name removed from the list of those who had attended as it had emerged it should have been NOFORN.

3. When the standing ban on flights into/over Vietnam was eased in late-71 and I went for my first brief at Clark ACP, I was told it was NOFORN so I had to wait outside whilst the rest of the crew heard about potential SAM sites etc. But as I was the Nav and the man with the maps, they just passed on the info outside and we got on with it.

[galaxy flyer]

10 SQN and, either 22 MAS or 75 MAS (Travis AFB, CA) always exchanged pilots, VC-10 and C-5. The SQN LDR on exchange during Desert Storm flew regular, albeit, cargo ops.

GF

[West Coast]

There used be a rumour of a mover and some air persons based in Hawaii - Hickham? - who were there for a once-a-week truck.

Now THAT would have been a tour .........


Yup, there was an RAF exchange pilot flying Hornets out of MCAS Kaneohe bay. I think it was with VMFA 212. He made quite a splash, literally, ejecting in a warning area.

[kaitakbowler]

Gp Capt LGA B came to Cottesmore from an exchange tour in '69. Had a Pontiac Grand Prix delivered by Hercules some weeks after arriving.

PM

[ian16th]

There used be a rumour of a mover and some air persons based in Hawaii - Hickham? - who were there for a once-a-week truck.

Now THAT would have been a tour .........
Yes, when I returned from my tour with RAFLP, I met up with an old mate who had coincidentally been on a similar tour at Hickam.

We p*ssed off the rest when we were on shift together, comparing notes.

We never did decide which of us got the short straw.

[JW411]

When I was on 267 Sqn Argosies at Benson, we always had an RAAF exchange captain, co-pilot and navigator. The other lot (114 Sqn) usually had a USAF exchange captain. In my time on the Belfast we always had a USAF exchange navigator. Over the years friends have done a USAF exchange on KC-135, C-5, C-141 and C-130 plus one who did an exchange with the Canadians on the 707. I also knew a chap who did an exchange at Edwards and flew such interesting machines as the U-2 and the A-12. I was once offered a Luftwaffe exchange on the C-160 Transall but it didn't suit at the time so I turned it down.

[Pontius Navigator]

Once read a secret report on an exchange officer's tour on the Clemenceau. Can't remember if he was dark blue or light blue. What sticks in my mind though was the limited endurance of the Clemenceau. Her wine cellar was limited to 14 days.

[JW411]

I almost forgot the wonderful Major Bonzo Von Haven, USAF who did an exchange tour on the Beverley. Quite what he thought of the Beverley after the C-130 would have made for an interesting lecture. I only ever managed to share a few beers with him down route but he was a lovely man; sadly no longer with us.

[ACW418]

Bob Tanner once promoted to Gp Capt did an exchange posting to the USA involving flying the B52. I asked him which he preferred and to my surprise he said the B52 rather than the Vulcan.

ACW

[Pontius Navigator]

Great respect for BT

[Bill Macgillivray]

If I remember correctly, the CGI at 230 OCU (Finningley) Vulcans, in 1969, was a USAF Major. I am afraid that the annual progression of years means that I cannot remember his name !!

[Treble one]

Met a chap at Duxford (briefly unfortunately) who volunteered in the same group as I did. He was a Vulcan Captain who did an exchange tour on B-52's. He ended up as an Instructor on the B-52, and when he came back he eventually became the staish at Waddington (IIRC).

[ShyTorque]

Invariably in the early 90's on 30 Sqn, when the a/c was captained by the Luftwaffe Exchange pilot, as we passed above Dover on a channel crossing route, one of the crew would call 'feet wet' and request permission to test the guns and by the time the a/c was 'feet dry' the Eng would have fashioned a gunsight from a paper cup and placed it on the front left instrument cowling. This was the same Hauptmann who entered a restaurant whilst night stopping Gutersloh (off base) and in broken English requested a table for himself and crew until we pointed out to him that he'd probably have more luck speaking Deutsch :)

RAF Gutersloh- the best station the RAF had - at least it was in the 1980s. As it was deemed inappropriate to hold a Battle of Britain Dinner, a "Formal Reception" was held, six months out of kilter, when local dignitaries, civilian and military, were invited to the Officers' Mess.

It was unofficially referred to, by RAF squadron aircrew as the "Battle of Britain Runners Up Cocktail Party". :E

[Barksdale Boy]

BM

I think you're referring to Sam McLure (at 230 in '68) or Bill Heckendorm (70).

[Dougie M]

A USAF pilot at Lyneham returned home with such a glowing report that he was awarded the Meritorious Service Medal for outstanding Anglo - American relations. It helped in his career to full colonel. We who were in the know presented him with a pictorial album of all his peccadiloes and shortcomings whilst On Her Majesty's Service which he kept next to the magnificent fold out display of his MSM (for shags in confidence). He still insists that you can't use a VSO's Christian name at a formal function so the legless ace was introduced by him to the IAT symposium as Sir Bader.

[Octane]

Very good friend of mine, RAAF C-130 Navigator scored a 3 year posting to the USAF. A few months later he was flying combat missions in GW1 :ooh:

[John Eacott]

We had plenty of exchange aircrew on the RN Sea King squadrons, and elsewhere. At any one time I recall a French (Navy) nav, a Canadian pilot (killed flying into a 220ft cliff at 200ft on the radalt), a USN pilot (later an Admiral), a German Navy pilot and too many RAN pilots! Two of my instructors on 705NAS were Australian on exchange, indeed we also had half a dozen or so at BRNC Dartmouth on course. Australia Day was always looked upon with trepidation to see what they would get up to, such as attending Divisions on horseback.

Then the FW squadrons also had plenty of exchange personnel, predominantly USN. I was always plenty impressed with the F4 jock with his leather jacket and the "Gulf of Tonkin Yacht Club" patch emblazoned across the back.

[BEagle]

Maj Tom G........... at 230 OCU always had some interesting tales to tell about his time flying B-52s from Guam to bomb the 'vee-yet'...

Including one where they released 15 min early due to a formation call-sign cock-up by the nav bombardier, Buffing a large chunk of someone else's country in the process.

Yet no-one ever complained - apart from their SAC bosses!

[SpazSinbad]

Usually every year A4G RAN FAA squadrons had a USN exchange pilot with USMC coming later. One USN exchange pilot went on to command the Blue Angels (in Hornets) and another became a USN aircraft carrier CO. Another ex-TomCatter did not bring back an A4G after the arrestor wire broke onboard but he was OK. A4G pilots went to USN RAG squadrons with TA-4Js then A-7s with some going to USMC AV-8A squadrons. Then the S2E/G boyos had USN exchanges, one USN S-2 pilot died in a motorbike accident. Anyways...

Interview with John Craig on the F-111 Aardvark
"Aircrew Interview Published on Jan 29, 2017
John Craig is an ex RAF Buccaneer and Tornado GR1 navigator, in this interview he chats about his time flying the F-111 on an exchange tour with the RAAF. He tells us his story on his time in Australia with some great stories."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsxz6uQDMbQ

[Octane]

Thanks Spaz, was a great watch...

[JW411]

Somebody asked earlier on about exchange tours in Honolulu. I've just remembered that one of our captains on 267 Squadron had just done a USAF exchange tour at Hickam AFB on C-118s (DC-6A).

[SpazSinbad]

Group Captain Braz and the Coming of the Growler to the Australian Defence Force 07 Apr 2017 Robbin Laird
"...[Group] Captain Braz [RAAF]: We couldn’t have done this without a huge commitment from the U.S. Navy. There’s simply no other way to describe that.

They have wanted us to be on this journey, and they have supported us wholeheartedly throughout it, both on what we do with the Growler training and the operational experience, the exchanges we’ve established, and how we prepare the team.

That’s furthered by exchange opportunities. We have U.S. Navy Growler aircrew joining us here, but we’ve also used folks connected to intelligence organizations and data management organizations and used U.S. Navy expertise in those areas to bring us along and further on the journey.

It’s no accident that when the Growler officially arrived in Australia at Avalon International Air Show a month or so ago, one of the four humans to step out of those two aircraft was a U.S. Navy aviator.

That was very deliberate, because we wanted both to recognize the amazing support we have had so far from the US Navy and the fact that we’re in this together. It’s a partnership for the long term with cross learning on all sides...."
Group Captain Braz and the Coming of the Growler to the Australian Defence Force | SLDInfo (http://www.sldinfo.com/group-captain-braz-and-the-coming-of-the-growler-to-the-australian-defence-force/)

[chopper2004]

Also one former Chinook display team pilot is on exchange instructing in sunny NC on the 53 Echo

https://twitter.com/MrCharlie_B

Bearing in mind JHC crews are no stranger to the Super Stallion especially those who partcipated in Ex Purple Heart in 1996 - biggest deployment across the pond for joint exercises/ where we deployed pretty much everything from Lynx, Gazelle to Chinook and Puma and even a pair of SAR Sea Kings. The latter partook in CSAR exercises.

They were spread out / moved around between Simmons AAF, Ft Bragg to New River and down to NAS Jax . Former AVM PL who was overall in chrage of the SHF deployment out there ended up having a UH-60A as his C3 mount during the time at Ft Bragg.

While at New River, the Puma crews got some stick time flying the AH-1W Cobra while the Chinook crews got some stick time in the CH-53E.

cheers