Finally a commuting roster on the 777!

[Un_Limited]

According to Fleet a possible 17 days off can be achieved with the new contract on the 777??

[BigGeordie]

The devil will be in the details of the revised terms and conditions. A paycut for sure, but how much? What about housing, medical and schooling?

Still, a very interesting development. If they do go for commuting rosters it makes sense to start small with the freighter.

[luvly jubbly]

According to Fleet a possible 17 days off can be achieved with the new contract on the 777??

Waiting to see the reduced package before biting.
Could also leave you subject to tax in your home country.

Still, it's a positive start so credit where it's due.

[Divertnow]

28 days on and 13 off! Count me out.

[ynos]

28/13 isn't that great. A good start but have to be better. Not really good for commuting if you want to see your family.

It equates to 9.6 days off per month.
That wouldn't be enough for me to see my family on

[ynos]

21/14 would be a lot more interesting, that would equate to 12.1 days off per month

Will be interesting to see the actual TnCs end of the week

[sluggums]

As has been said, I'm sure EK will get more than its pound of flesh, its inherent in their nature. But I'm hopeful this is the beginning of some progress. Good idea to dip their toe in on the freighter contract.

[gardenshed]

Think you have to remember that both EK and Dubai appear to be hemorrhaging cash at the moment.
I reckon this is just an attempt to reduce costs.
As stated the devil will be in the detail, but I doubt the Ts& Cs will be anything like current poor standards, they will be worse. Also I would doubt there will be discounted firm tickets included within the deal, therefore comutting will be out of your own pocket.
Let's see what they dangle in the water as bait with the package, could do with a good laugh.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Think you have to remember that both EK and Dubai appear to be hemorrhaging cash at the moment.
I reckon this is just an attempt to reduce costs.
As stated the devil will be in the detail, but I doubt the Ts& Cs will be anything like current poor standards, they will be worse. Also I would doubt there will be discounted firm tickets included within the deal, therefore comutting will be out of your own pocket.
Let's see what they dangle in the water as bait with the package, could do with a good laugh.

If EK doesn't include free J class upgradeable to F class confirmed seats then it is taking the wee wee and threatening its own operation as there would inevitably be pilots not getting to DXB in time for rostered duties. An integral part of any commuting contract is free J class travel to/from home base and work base.

[Monarch Man]

It looks to be a commutable contract, but certainly not a commuting contract, unless of course there is provision for tickets etc etc.
21 on 14 off and they'd be killed in the rush, but that wouldn't satisfy the slave ship mentality, nor the control freaks.

[Plank Cap]

28 on, 13 off, yes all very well. But surely we know what's coming - " new freight dog acclimatisation requirements to have spent the previous 12 days in DXB prior to commencing duty ", for no particular reason.......

I especially love the way they say an individual's performance and attendance record, and pilots who've previously demonstrated flexibility, will be taken into account when selecting the chosen few.... in the same missive as telling us that there will be external advertising for the positions also. How is a new joiner's flexibility, performance and attendance record to be assessed?

[The Turtle]

not to be pedantic but where does it say "commuting contract?"

because my copy doesn't appear to read that way

and as other's have already said...the devil's in the details

[north flyer]

just the first little stroke, see my post on the end of FT 2016-17 thread.

[felixthecat]

Who are the pilots who fly the Emirates branded 747F working for? They are on full time contracts, I wonder what their terms are. 9.6 days per month isn't exactly stellar, even Norwegian are offering 12 off a month on a full pay package. Basically the difference is that you get the days off together, but with a probable huge difference in terms.

The devil is in the detail but all I can see is similar working days away but now grouped into large chunks (think 418 several times a month) Yes flight hours 'may' be less but time away from home will in total be very similar but for less money and less allowances.

[jack schidt]

IF, it was such a good deal, they would have announced pay and other statistics. The reason they didn't is to see how many enquire and the more = the less the package will be.

Jack

[BANANASBANANAS]

28 on, 13 off, yes all very well. But surely we know what's coming - " new freight dog acclimatisation requirements to have spent the previous 12 days in DXB prior to commencing duty ", for no particular reason.......

I especially love the way they say an individual's performance and attendance record, and pilots who've previously demonstrated flexibility, will be taken into account when selecting the chosen few.... in the same missive as telling us that there will be external advertising for the positions also. How is a new joiner's flexibility, performance and attendance record to be assessed?

It is just typical management mind games to use words such as 'selected' and 'assessed' to make it sound like a juicy proposition that will be oversubscribed.
The truth of the matter is that EK has a desperate pilot manpower situation and they are just mining their wealth of dirty tricks to try to 'solve' their problem without awarding an across the board pay rise. If there is no guaranteed J class ticket between home and work bases and if the terms and conditions are any less than the existing contract (EK will still save on accommodation costs) then it's a non starter for me.

I would wait until the terms and conditions are published and then, in all probability, find them totally unacceptable and write in to CM telling him what we think.

[luvly jubbly]

Who are the pilots who fly the Emirates branded 747F working for? They are on full time contracts, I wonder what their terms are. 9.6 days per month isn't exactly stellar, even Norwegian are offering 12 off a month on a full pay package. Basically the difference is that you get the days off together, but with a probable huge difference in terms.

The devil is in the detail but all I can see is similar working days away but now grouped into large chunks (think 418 several times a month) Yes flight hours 'may' be less but time away from home will in total be very similar but for less money and less allowances.


The 747F contracts are terminated.

Where does this 9.6 days off per month come from? There will have to be the usual legal days off in the 28 days on roster as well. Of course, some could be days off downroute.

There would just be a gap of 13 days before the next 28 day rostering period starts.

I have worked a 2 months on, 1 month off roster before, which equates to this one.

As was mentioned above, I wouldn't expect tickets included as it does not say commuting roster.
Where you are on your 13 days off roster would be subject to the usual rules I suppose.

[felixthecat]

28/13 is 1 day off per 2.15 worked. thus 365/(2.15+1)=115.87 periods a year
115.87/12 =9.6 off a month averaged over a year. Your currently getting 8 on the average....so an extra 1.6 per month off with your family.

Legit days off could well be down route, as they were advertised in the last freighter version.

747F are still flying, and I would be surprised if they were terminated since they carry odd sized freight that the 777F cant carry. If they have been terminated I wonder what they were previously then?

[halas]

First 74F is out in June, second in November.

halas

[luvly jubbly]

28/13 is 1 day off per 2.15 worked
You still have to have 7 legal days off in any given 28 day period so it would be 20 days off total in every 41 day rostering period. (13 of which are consecutive.)

I guess you are talking about commutable consecutive days off.
Apologies if I misunderstood.

Anyhoo, I'll wait for the small print.

Some info on the TNT B74F

Emirates to end use of 747 freighters, citing weak cargo demand | Airframes content from ATWOnline (http://m.atwonline.com/airframes/emirates-end-use-747-freighters-citing-weak-cargo-demand)

[felixthecat]

Isn't that 7 days in 28 averaged over a 3 month period? (Don't have the OMA handy so could be wrong) If it is then the 13 days nicely takes care of that.....

[luvly jubbly]

Isn't that 7 days in 28 averaged over a 3 month period? (Don't have the OMA handy so could be wrong) If it is then the 13 days nicely takes care of that.....

No, it's 7 days off in ANY consecutive 28 days, so it's in addition to the 13 days consecutive.
Let's see just how reduced the actual package is.

[springbok449]

Does this mean that for the first time ever EK are admitting that there is a problem and that they are short of pilots...?!
As been said before, its a start but before anyone gets excited I think you need to see the T&Cs as one thing is for sure is that this type of contract won't come for free and out of good will.
The OM-A will have to be re-written with loads of Annexes forbidding you to do this or that and allowing them to do what they want to suit operational requirement!

[5star]

re-read the email. It's only the freighter and only for the 'chosen' ones.
15 planes in total, so will affect less than 200 pilots (less than 5% of total, less than 10% of Boeing fleet pilots). What a great deal.... 28 on, 13 off...:ugh:
Last time I spoke to a UPS B777pilot, he told me he was on 15on 13off or so.

:ugh:

[LongLats]

What are the odds that they'll offer it to external applicants over internal?

[glofish]

When they need bums on freight-seats and can't find enough EK pilots accepting the T&Cs.
Just wait until they are published and then read the reactions on here. It will be a good indicator of the odds.

[Gulf News]

Note the subtle change in wording in the email. One of the criteria on which applicants will be assessed is " length of service" This is deliberate avoidance of the use of the word seniority. A sure sign that seniority is well and truly a thing of the past and since the list was scrambled the average pilot has no reference to his or her position in the pecking order.

An interesting development if nothing else. I am willing to bet that the 13 days off is the only selling point in this new contract. The rest will be pure poison. I would love to be proven wrong but 20 years of exposure to EK policy has brought the cynic in me to the fore.

[felixthecat]

2 'flexible' days at the start of the 13 days also....is that 11+2 flexible or 13 +2 flexible....

[Rainman7]

I thought the last time they announce the exclusive Freighter only membership, there was such an overwhelming demand from crews, that it would have been a done deal by now. More smoke and mirrors, an attempt in their continued desperation to bait the trap. If you want a real commuting contract there are plenty of real airlines out there offering real commuting terms, 14/14 not a bogus 28/13. Maybe if you are single/divorced/ hate your family this would appeal to you. This wont solve the problem with the airline over the short/long term. They may have airplanes, but their business model is a labor camp, not airline, until they commit to real change, look for the downward spiral to continue.

[Plane_Sailing]

There seems to be quite a few 777 skippers going to Ethiopian for the 20/10 roster. This is equivalent to that but with the bonus that emirates is arguably still a better place to work.
I can't believe they would be stupid enough to make this offer without some deal on travel. Having said that, they never fail to out do themselves with regards to stupidity!

[Emma Royds]

The company has little desire to encourage you to live outside of Dubai, as that conflicts with the whole ethos of the Dubai leadership. Perhaps this is why the word commute has been carefully excluded from the initial email? As a result I would expect no travel assistance whatsoever on your days off.

On your 28 days on - you will essentially be working a full month for less cash, as has already been hinted in the email. This is nothing more than a cost saving exercise for the company!

[Monarch Man]

The company has little desire to encourage you to live outside of Dubai, as that conflicts with the whole ethos of the Dubai leadership. Perhaps this is why the word commute has been carefully excluded from the initial email? As a result I would expect no travel assistance whatsoever on your days off.

On your 28 days on - you will essentially be working a full month for less cash, as has already been hinted in the email. This is nothing more than a cost saving exercise for the company!

Accurately summed up in terms of Zero cost, i.e. If you are happy that's a cost.

[clear to land]

Plain Sailing-A 28/13 Roster is definately not the equivalent to 20/10. It is a very different dynamic. If you have never deployed anywhere for a month or more I understand why you think this but they are VERY different animals. If you have deployed for 4 wks or more then I will have to assume you don't have or don't like your family!. The ONLY life balance for 28 days away is 28 days off-and even that is arguable in terms of family disruption. If you are single, or kids left home, then it works as it allows you to have another life/business/whatever floats your boat.

[McNugget]

Surprised to hear 777 skippers leaving to Ethiopian. I know that money isn't the biggest factor at EK but the Ethiopian deal is an embarrassment.

Interested to see how this contract looks. As I've heard you chaps say all along - a commuting contract would solve pretty much all of their crewing issues.

Let's see if a 'commuting-lite' contract does much to stem the flow.

[Bindair Dundat]

[QUOTE=Rainman7;9730108]I thought the last time they announce the exclusive Freighter only membership, there was such an overwhelming demand from crews, that it would have been a done deal by now. More smoke and mirrors, an attempt in their continued desperation to bait the trap. If you want a real commuting contract there are plenty of real airlines out there offering real commuting terms, 14/14 not a bogus 28/13. Maybe if you are single/divorced/ hate your family this would appeal to you.

You EK guys need to lose the "hate your family" mantra when you commute. I would argue the exact opposite. You must really hate your family to force them to reside in Dubai. You're so fatigued that any days off with them in the shiny city are overshadowed by your crap temper and general feeling of malaise. Dubai and EK is a divorce factory no more or no less than a commutable roster. The industry is such that you do what works for your personal situation. There are no great options anymore. When the money was good and the rosters not a slow death sentence, EK was a tolerable option. That ship sailed about 7 years ago. Waiting around for things to improve is a fools game. EK could never manage commuting pilots. The company is a patriarchicsl control freak that needs its pilots squashed under its thumb. Stop dreaming. If you hate it leave. If you don't stop complaining.

[Plane_Sailing]

Plain Sailing-A 28/13 Roster is definately not the equivalent to 20/10. It is a very different dynamic. If you have never deployed anywhere for a month or more I understand why you think this but they are VERY different animals. If you have deployed for 4 wks or more then I will have to assume you don't have or don't like your family!. The ONLY life balance for 28 days away is 28 days off-and even that is arguable in terms of family disruption. If you are single, or kids left home, then it works as it allows you to have another life/business/whatever floats your boat.
Firstly, 20 divided by 10 is 2.
28 divided by 13 is 2.15 so you are technically correct but it's pretty close. If you take the extra day traveling on a 20/10 roster I would say it's equivalent.
Secondly, Why do dimwits like you always have to make thing personal and tell me I hate my family?
Thirdly, I am not interested in this contract, I was just making an observation!
Fourthly, The only proper commuting options are in the Far East, which while giving a lot of off time, leave you extremely jet lagged if you are commuting to Europe.

[Trader]

The 'reduced' cash will be due to the fact that the freighter flying can be 'unproductive' with lots of down time. The pencil pushers want a cost 'per hour' balanced into a 'month'. In other words, they want to pay you less, since you fly less, yet still be away more.

The problem with a commuting roster for EK is that they are competing with BETTER contracts at other companies. Why would anyone come (or stay) to fly 28/13 when they can go to Korean (19/11) or China or.............

You add in the fact that for most countries (where you will reside) there are tax treaties. Not so with the UAE so you will pay tax on the full salary.

I'll reserve more comment until they actually publish the conditions, however, just guessing that it will be bare minimum. I'd also suggest it may be a way for them to test the waters to see exactly how LITTLE they can offer. If enough EK/outsiders accept it then they know they can keep conditions soft.

[harry the cod]

Trader

Think you'll find that the DTT (Double Tax Treaty) between UAE and UK his being implemented this week.

Gulf News

Please excuse my ignorance here, but can you please explain the difference between 'length of service' and 'seniority'? If someone's been here longer, they're more senior, no?

Emma Royds

Yes you will, but conversely you'll be paid for sitting on your arse for a fortnight after each and every month.


Although not for many, at least this contract is a step in the right direction. It certainly offers more potential than what's currently available and if the final T&C's don't add up, don't take it. Either carry on complaining here or depart to all these marvellous contracts that are constantly being quoted. You still have to have the legal one in 7 and 2 in 14, even on the 28 day cycle. If they don't get enough uptakes, they'll either increase the package, scrub it or do it in reverse seniority.

My bet is 70-75% pay with commensurate reduction in accommodation allowance and Company Provident fund contributions. May tempt a few into a gentle retirement still.

Harry

[McNugget]

Trader

Think you'll find that the DTT (Double Tax Treaty) between UAE and UK his being implemented this week.



I'll be intrigued to see what this could possibly look like, considering there is no income tax in the UAE (yet).

I don't know of any DTTs the UK has which differ from the basis that you'll pay the equivalent amount of the higher tax country, but some of that will go to the other countries coffers.

[harry the cod]

McNugget

Article was in today's Gulf News. Ironically, if anything, it should work in our favour regarding income tax liability.

Harry

[Emma Royds]

With the 28/13 split along with the salary reduction that has been hinted, this has the potential to be the worst paid 777 ex-pat part time position along with having the worst work versus time off balance.

Surely this is a step backwards for us at EK?

[felixthecat]

Basically the hours will be probably going back to what they were pre the big increase in hours a few years back plus the time off will be in the same ballpark.....BUT and a huge decrease in salary and allowances. Sounds like having your cake and eating it to me...... basically where you were 7ish years back but for less money (and thats without taking into account inflation)

A clever trick if you ask me....imagine instead of the increase in hours 7ish years ago they just instead dropped the pay....would that have worked ? Probably not but do it this way in two stages and "Hey Presto' same work for less money......Magic ...just watch the hands.....

[McNugget]

McNugget

Article was in today's Gulf News. Ironically, if anything, it should work in our favour regarding income tax liability.

Harry

How can you have a DTT when only one side collects tax?

Seems bizarre.

As I said before, under typical UK DTTs, it would be 'we will offset tax paid in Dubai'. Which is zero.

I can't see it being beneficial. The UK has a problem with the number of high earners claiming non-dom status in the UAE. They won't want to feed that particular pony.

[Kempus]

Please seek some professional financial advice.

The DTT that comes into effect is to allow those of pensionable age who, earned thier pension in the UK i.e. made the pension contributions whilst paying tax on thier earnings, the ability to draw that pension in thier country of residence and pay tax at the rate of that country be it as a passport holder or resident status.
At the moment that rate is zero on pensions in the UAE.

If DTT does come in on earnings it will be several years after implementing income tax in the UAE as it will need to be means tested.

The proposed contract on its face is already poor without seeing the details.

[parabellum]

Wilfred Fry & Co. used to run a tax service for expats that seemed up to date and reasonable.

Establishing Non-domiciled status in the UK is a lot harder than it once was, the mesh of the net has got a lot smaller, worth checking.

www.thefrygroup.co.uk

[McNugget]

Please seek some professional financial advice.

The DTT that comes into effect is to allow those of pensionable age who, earned thier pension in the UK i.e. made the pension contributions whilst paying tax on thier earnings, the ability to draw that pension in thier country of residence and pay tax at the rate of that country be it as a passport holder or resident status.
At the moment that rate is zero on pensions in the UAE.

If DTT does come in on earnings it will be several years after implementing income tax in the UAE as it will need to be means tested.

The proposed contract on its face is already poor without seeing the details.

Interesting stuff, thanks. I figured it would be pretty odd. Not sure how many expats who earned retirement benefits back home will be planning on retiring in the Middle East, but takes all sorts, I suppose!

[hockeypilot44]

I can't believe conditions are that bad at EK. I work for one of the big 3 US legacies based at the busiest airport in the world. I never work more than 14 days per month. My 3 vacation months of the year, I work 8-10 days. Granted this is in a 30-31 day month instead of 28. I am shocked reading this board.

[4runner]

I can't believe conditions are that bad at EK. I work for one of the big 3 US legacies based at the busiest airport in the world. I never work more than 14 days per month. My 3 vacation months of the year, I work 8-10 days. Granted this is in a 30-31 day month instead of 28. I am shocked reading this board.

dude...I know. I've tried pointing out this small matter and was lambasted. Like monkeys throwing feces. Called ALPA corrupt and lots of anti yank comments. I don't get it. More than half of all aircraft are N registered. We set the global standard by shear numbers. If you try and help our fellow aviators to raise their terms and conditions, they get very combative and start making excuses.

[McNugget]

I love how American legacy pilots love chiming in with severe tall-poppy syndrome these days, despite having the worst major airline contracts in the developed world for the better part of the last generation.

I was shocked reading about the terms and conditions on offer up until the last couple of years. Appalled, in fact. Particularly for guys based in the busiest airport in the world.

As for setting the 'global standard'. I'm glad that's completely untrue. Not sure the world needs their major airline industry divested into 50% regional jets with food stamp wages.

When you peer over Trump's wall, you'll see that the standards set in each locale are set by the market forces operating therein.

[hockeypilot44]

I love how American legacy pilots love chiming in with severe tall-poppy syndrome these days, despite having the worst major airline contracts in the developed world for the better part of the last generation.

I was shocked reading about the terms and conditions on offer up until the last couple of years. Appalled, in fact. Particularly for guys based in the busiest airport in the world.

As for setting the 'global standard'. I'm glad that's completely untrue. Not sure the world needs their major airline industry divested into 50% regional jets with food stamp wages.

When you peer over Trump's wall, you'll see that the standards set in each locale are set by the market forces operating therein.

The regional jets was a major attack on our labor force. We have successfully won that battle. Regional first officers now start at $60,000 per year. It is now a stepping stone job to the legacies. I make more money in a year than an A380 captain at your airline and I'm a 737 first officer. I already knew that. What I didn't know was how few days off you guys get. I can't believe you would compare wages on a 70 seat aircraft against an international wide-body.

[Gunman returns]

Hockeypilot,
I earn approx $19000US per month tax free as a 777 Captain at EK. Pleased for you that you earn more than me. Didn't realise a 737 FO was paid so much in the USA!

[Gunman returns]

Frank,
Agreed. Not defending EK in anyway and have had enough. I was just pointing out an inaccuracy regarding salary

[4runner]

Market locale? The very definition of aviation implies global. Once again, defending your rice bowls, no matter how small or half empty they may be. Big picture, look at it. You attack a group or nationality because they are better compensated than you are? Clean up your own backyard. We did. But that's because of Trump or a wall???? We want better terms and conditions, yet you are defending a substandard schedule and compensation. Some people can't be helped. Enjoy $9 beer night.

[keepitrealok]

It is disturbing and a sign of just how many EK pilots suffer from the work equivalent of 'Battered Wife Syndrome' that you are considering this a commuting contract.

Take a breath, minus the shisha, and realise that a commuting contract it ain't.

They lowered the requirements to the absolute minimum and couldn't get anyone.

They offered (disgustingly) new joiners more than current pilots and couldn't get anyone.

Now they are offering a crap package and you are blindly considering it good. 28 days on 13 days off - what planet are you on?

Almost 2 years ago they deludedly believed they could become an 'Employer of Choice,' and introduced a survey that would allow them to announce this to the world. The backlash was so great the results have disappeared into the ether - yet more typical head in the sand from management.

Stop kidding yourselves about this 'deal.'
:=

[JuniorMan]

Hockeypilot,
I earn approx $19000US per month tax free as a 777 Captain at EK. Pleased for you that you earn more than me. Didn't realise a 737 FO was paid so much in the USA!

$19,000 a month tax free is great pay. This puts you above the majority of US3 Captains and probably among the highest paid airline pilots in the world. I understand the hours are rough, but in terms of compensation it doesn't get much better than EK. Additionally, the quick upgrade to the left seat of a widebody is a major plus. In the US, widebody command takes a quarter of a century. Unfortunately, that's not an exaggeration.

[UAL777]

The regional jets was a major attack on our labor force. We have successfully won that battle. Regional first officers now start at $60,000 per year. It is now a stepping stone job to the legacies. I make more money in a year than an A380 captain at your airline and I'm a 737 first officer. I already knew that. What I didn't know was how few days off you guys get. I can't believe you would compare wages on a 70 seat aircraft against an international wide-body.

Give it a rest. You do not make more than EK 380 captains as a Delta 737 first officer. Do you make more than $230k a year tax free? I didn't think so. Now go back to airline pilot central and play your game there. You and your retarded buddy 80 knots clamp on APC are a joke.

[keepitrealok]

USD19,0000 per month equates to roughly AED70,000.

To make that as Base + Flying Pay, Gunman has been here as long it takes to get a widebody command in the US.

[allaru]

13 off is not enough unless you plan on commuting to the sub-continent or Egypt. UK is probably possible distance wise but try getting a seat at certain times of the year. Australia/NZ/CAN/US is not realistic with only 13 off.

13 off after 28 on would not be unusual on a normal roster with most airlines.

[nolimitholdem]

$19,000 a month tax free is great pay. This puts you above the majority of US3 Captains and probably among the highest paid airline pilots in the world. I understand the hours are rough, but in terms of compensation it doesn't get much better than EK. Additionally, the quick upgrade to the left seat of a widebody is a major plus. In the US, widebody command takes a quarter of a century. Unfortunately, that's not an exaggeration.

There are many ways to qualify what makes pay "great", but I think you'll find EK pilots are a little more "productive" than the average US ones lol. Sure, nice to see the bank account swell, as you pack and repack for your next flight. Say, who are those short strangers in my villa who sort of look like me? hahah! QOL? Zero, I mean absolutely infinitely no comparison.

And forget the quick upgrades at EK, that's done. Quicker than a US major perhaps, but only an overly ambitious fool would consider the left seat at EK an improvement over the right seat at a US major.

[BANANASBANANAS]

13 off is not enough unless you plan on commuting to the sub-continent or Egypt. UK is probably possible distance wise but try getting a seat at certain times of the year. Australia/NZ/CAN/US is not realistic with only 13 off.

13 off after 28 on would not be unusual on a normal roster with most airlines.

In a previous airline, we had one roster pattern that was 22 days long. As a sweetener to get crews to volunteer for the 22 day pattern we guaranteed 10 days off after the 22 day pattern - which also had days off rostered down route to keep the duty legal. Three and four day layovers in some rather nice locations. But we would have been laughed out of court if we had tried to sell it as a commuting roster - though some with homes in the right part of the world managed it. And there was absolutely no alteration to the terms and conditions for the crews that operated the 22 day pattern.

[Trader]

$19,000 including housing etc. A captain who has been at EK 10 years (upgraded in about 3-4 years) takes home about 45,000 AED a month with flying pay.

If you want to include housing in your analysis then you have to also factor in things like the interest/income lost on the 30% you must put down for the house. The fact that the fees etc will require about 3 years of EK's contributions to break even. Add to this the volatile market and it becomes a real mugs game. Yes, if you bought 10 years ago then you may be ahead of the game - though a few guys who bought 9 years ago are STILL behind in value. Which shows just how tenuous the housing market here can be.

To truly compare 'pay' you should really be looking at what you take home versus what it costs you to live. EK will no longer compare to a US carrier.

Their new freighter deal doesn't even touch Korean or the Chinese.

[4runner]

It sounds like "productive" is a euphemism for working a lot. Pilot unions had to force companies to truly be productive. I.E. using your time away from home to operate the most hours in the shortest time. I found that outside the US, you may work more days but fly fewer hours. This also translates into less efficient aircraft and staff utilization. In other words, ****ty(****tier) management.

[donpizmeov]

Thread drift...thread drift...thread drift.

Trader,

You have to remember that the money you use to pay off the house in DXB is money that you would otherwise not have access to. So your exposure is only the deposit, fees, and any investment you make in the property. So having paid the mortgage for a decade with basically free money, even if the property value has gone down, as long as the mortgage has decreased enough you may still be in front.
This is different to investing at home where its your after tax dollars that pay down the loan. Still takes some intestinal fortitude and not for the faint hearted.

[FL XXX]

After reading all the posts here on pprune about EK, it seems it would be difficult to actually trust them and of course the freighter market that these conditions will stay the same?? as currently advertised! Looking at the freighter market trackrecord this in combination of EK's trackrecord you must ask yourself in the long term future if this offer would be acceptable? The freighter schedules are extremely volatile and you never know what you're up to. Combine this with the current volatility in the airline industry, this new offer might prove to be a recipe for a divorce if you're married with kids! I know it sounds to tempting. Perhaps something to take into consideration before signing up for this.

[Trader]

don-- agree wholeheartedly. IF you stay for a longer period you should come out ahead. When I looked at it - and I looked hard since i very much wanted my own place - it didn't make sense.

I figured that at 2.4 million dhms (approx) or below it might have been a doable proposition. Beyond that it didn't make much financial sense, or at least, the break even vs risk was too high.

It takes almost 3 years EK payments less the mortgage, utilities, yearly fees etc to just cover the FEES associated with the purchase. After that the 180,000/year allowance has to be reduced by utilities, yearly fees, maintenance etc to be truly reflective of what you 'gain' in the end.

Today, if you buy a villa it will be in the neighborhood of $1 million US. Your $300,000 deposit would earn, conservatively, 5% invested anywhere else (not to mention the ability to invest that in a broad, diversified relatively risk free set of investments). That is another $15,000 US (50,000 dhm).

So if you plan to stay for a longer period of time then it may well make sense. Of course plans change and if you want to leave sooner then it may well cost you a bundle.

[allaru]

details out...basically 15% pay reduction, no provident fund, fixed and lower rate for housing, days off down route everything else the same.

[Jetkopite]

details out...basically 15% pay reduction, no provident fund, fixed and lower rate for housing, days off down route everything else the same.

Dont forget the kids education allowance ONLY paid if the attend in Dubai which for me is the BIGGEST joke of all... I guess older more senior guys whos kids have finished school it might be ok?? As crap as expected !!!!! One step fwd 3 steps back as usual with these snakes!!!!!!!!

[donpizmeov]

No provident fund, they encash any leave you have now, they give you a full 12 days leave per year after that. You get kicked out of company accommodation and get a reduced allowance instead. No education allowance for kids outside of DXB. And a 15% pay cut. And have paid sick leave reduced to 6 months.
Looks legit...should be a long line of applicants. Good work with this one TICH.

[Trader]

As guessed. The 15% pay reduction is because you fly less (600 hours per year). The bean counters STILL do not get the concept that it is DAYS AT WORK that meter to a person. They want to pay you less for sitting somewhere in a hotel.

Won't even comment on the rest.

[McNugget]

No provident fund, they encash any leave you have now, they give you a full 12 days leave per year after that. You get kicked out of company accommodation and get a reduced allowance instead. No education allowance for kids outside of DXB. And a 15% pay cut. And have paid sick leave reduced to 6 months.
Looks legit...should be a long line of applicants. Good work with this one TICH.

Ouch.

They really can't help themselves. I reckon this had the potential to be a really easy fix to some of the problems. A win/win, if you like.

[Fire Ball XL5]

I think this will be very difficult to swallow, even for the die-hard cargo chaps. An opportunity lost once again.
BTW.. Wasn't "April 1st" last week??

[hockeypilot44]

Give it a rest. You do not make more than EK 380 captains as a Delta 737 first officer. Do you make more than $230k a year tax free? I didn't think so. Now go back to airline pilot central and play your game there. You and your retarded buddy 80 knots clamp on APC are a joke.

I did make more than $230,000 last year, but it wasn't tax free. You win. Enjoy flying 2-3 times more than me for the same money. At least yours is tax free.

[olster]

How are they consistently so unaware / lacking in eq, certainly when it comes to pilots? It is not difficult to understand why they are haemorrhaging pilots / not attracting any. It is quite simple: money or lifestyle. No money and no life equals no takers. Baffling.

[halas]

They want this up and running by the 1st of June?

Tell 'em they're dream'n.

Quick figures works out at a loss to me of US$100,000+ per year.

My average days off last 12 months with leave is more than their total offer by 20 days.
Sure there will be many more days off both in DXB and down route.
That works out at 11 duties on per year with 8 days off. Total 88 days ( - 20 extra days off l have already) = US$1,470 per extra day off out of my pocket.

halas

[Life Vest]

The devil is in the details or lack thereof.

Not getting the provident fund is effectively a further 12% reduction in salary so you are actually looking at a 27% basic pay reduction.

To meet operational requirements, you can be assigned 2 blocks of 13 days off, which means they can then assign you 2 blocks of 28 days, in other words you can do a 56 day continuous block.

Days off can be assigned at outstation so theoretically you could leave Dubai on a duty and not return until the end of your duties, 28 or 56 days away.

A monthly accommodation allowance only, does that mean you won’t receive it when you are on your 13 or 26 day off block.

And so on...

Sorry but they can't be trusted.

[lospilotos]

The devil is in the details or lack thereof.

Not getting the provident fund is effectively a further 12% reduction in salary so you are actually looking at a 27% basic pay reduction.



You can't just add 15%+12% and make it 27%. If you do the actual calculation it's closer to 24%. Considering EOSB adds 5.7% to the basic (for the first 5 years) the actual reduction is approximately 20%. Still not good though...

[4runner]

Give it a rest. You do not make more than EK 380 captains as a Delta 737 first officer. Do you make more than $230k a year tax free? I didn't think so. Now go back to airline pilot central and play your game there. You and your retarded buddy 80 knots clamp on APC are a joke.

There are Widget(Delta) FO's that are over 300k a year on narrow bodies. They have to pick up open time on occasion, but if you know how to work the contract and are flexible, it isn't difficult at all to make that. I don't make that much and I'm not rubbing it in anyone's face. I'm also not trying to insult a an EK guy. You guys deserve better. I want you to achieve better.

[fliion]

Thanks 4Runner & Co in US - that's all noted, now can we move on.

Right back to the 'Commuting roster'.

I'm genuinely concerned at the lack of connection to reality of this offer. I'm not not engaging in hyperbole here, I thought there would be a pseudo nickel & dime-ing, but it turned into a hatchet job.

These guys obviously have no idea of how restless the troops are. This was a great chance for them - nope, fail.

TICH really starting to hit his stride here.

I wonder how many of his turkeys will invite themselves to Easter dinner?

[gardenshed]

The next Pilot Forum should be an interesting affair.

[my salami]

The regional jets was a major attack on our labor force. We have successfully won that battle. Regional first officers now start at $60,000 per year. It is now a stepping stone job to the legacies. I make more money in a year than an A380 captain at your airline and I'm a 737 first officer. I already knew that. What I didn't know was how few days off you guys get. I can't believe you would compare wages on a 70 seat aircraft against an international wide-body.

Hey, but you don't get to say
"Super" when you check in with ATC...

MS

[parabellum]

Today, if you buy a villa it will be in the neighborhood of $1 million US. Your $300,000 deposit would earn, conservatively, 5% invested anywhere else.

Can you give more details on that conservative 5% please? You won't get more than 2.5% in Australia or the UK if it is a bank deposit and personally I would consider the stock market to be way too volatile to be relied on.

In my last job we flew 80% pax and 20% freighters, don't think I ever did a single freighter roster that wasn't changed down route. Trying to plan commuting, without the full support of rostering, would be a very stressful, (possibly heart stopping), exercise, I would think.

[Desert Peregrin]

Hi folks,
Considering the overall offer this new contract may mean more money saved at the end of the month than when staying in Dubai with the normal contract.
Just as an exercise:
A Captain with ten years of service will make around 14k euros net in the freighter contract, cause the legal residence is still the UAE. If the same Captain is in the normal contract the income would be around 18k euros (based in the same low hours of the freighter option). Then you establish your family residence in countries like Spain, Portugal, Greece or Cyprus (just examples) where you can afford to buy a decent property for a reasonable price and the cost of living is quiet cheap for EU standards. Comparing with the cost of living in Dubai I would say that you'll be talking about at least double the cost of living in one of these countries. So your 14k euros will buy more than what you're now buying in Dubai. Power of buying is far more important than the nominal amount, if you're spending your money where you live. If this pilot has property in Dubai and adds the rental income to the equation it may happen that even the nominal income becomes higher in the freighter contract than in the normal one. With the high cost of rental in Dubai this isn't difficult to achieve.
So what may look pretty bad to some may be a good option to others, mainly if they're already planning to leave the desert and to fly less hours.

[Trader]

parabellum - in a mixed portfolio of investments you would have averaged well over 5%/year over the last decade. The point is twofold - one you have to account for that lost income in your calculations. Even more importantly, when you 'invest' in a home in Dubai you are putting a large sum of money into a single investment which is highly risky. While a good balanced portfolio of various investments greatly reduces any risk.

[felixthecat]

Desert Peregrin, loosing 4k a month and 30 days leave plus going onto a EOSB as opposed to Provident, no kids schooling if out of Dubai, housing allowance reductions etc etc etc and your spinning it into a positive?? If I live in a labour camp I can save a fortune.......

Nice first post ;)

[Shadowsonclouds]

The damage has been done long ago, and firmly cemented with this last dump.

Opinion and morale are so low, any unlikely change for the better will raise questions and pure disbelief. Out of touch, deeply disillusioned and tainted to fail.

This new contract suits no one really....it has missed its mark so far wide. A glimpse for the outsiders of the capabilities of these managers.

[thatwasclose]

In response to DP.
I get where you are trying to come from but you will be away from your family for a month potentially . A month . Now I know some people may find that a blessing but surely most won't .

[Desert Peregrin]

Maybe I was not well understood.
What I meant was that some pilots will make more money taking this freighter option and LEAVING Dubai, due to their individual circunstances.
Anyone who goes to the freighter flete and decides to stay at the expensive Dubai will make a huge mistake in my opinion.
There's no comparison between this and our normal contract, you have to compare with the commuting jobs available.
Some pilots would leaving anyway, and this option may be an easier way to change your life and stop doing the turns and flying close to 100 hours than starting from zero in another company. Our group is quiet big and you can find many different personal profiles. Surely that will fit well for some, I just don't know if they'll be enough.
And Felixthecat, places like Lisbon or Barcelona are definitely not a labour camp!
In fact living in these places normally is better for westerns than living in Dubai.

[ekpilot]

It has been well demonstrated that nothing is garanteed with this contract. The minute you commit to these T&C you are exposed. They can move the goal posts as soon as it suits them. Common practice. What else can be said? We know how business is done around here. Big life gamble to join these days. Suited for opportunists and desperados.

[Icarus2001]

So how is the freighter contract going? The 28/13 arrangement. Has anyone heard more?

[donpizmeov]

This new change Re hotel accommodation has screwed many. Not sure an apology is enough. Good luck fellas. Hope it works out.

[Big Enos Burdette]

What was the hotel policy change?

[harry the cod]

That the hotac promised whilst in Dubai (for those that opted out of Company accommodation), will no longer be provided. Promise kept for this month but not after September. Option to leave the freighter fleet if this policy change is not acceptable.

Considering this freighter contract has only literally just got off the ground, how on earth can senior management be taken seriously regarding the integrity of future policies and contracts. Aren't these contracts proof read and signed off from only the most senior level? The mistrust that this change will have on all EK pilots should not be underemphasised. It demonstrates either a serious lack of organisation, or honesty on their part. Or both. And then they wonder why they have a relatively large number of disloyal and demotivated pilots!

To now offer 'exclusive' rates on certain hotels along with food and beverage discounts, doesn't cut it when you promise one thing and take away with only an apology. Truly embarrassing.

Harry

[JAYTO]

As the devil said in a quite humorous joke.

"Yesterday we were employing. Today you are staff"

J.

[CaptainChipotle]

That the hotac promised whilst in Dubai (for those that opted out of Company accommodation), will no longer be provided. Promise kept for this month but not after September. Option to leave the freighter fleet if this policy change is not acceptable.

Considering this freighter contract has only literally just got off the ground, how on earth can senior management be taken seriously regarding the integrity of future policies and contracts.

Please please please tell me that you're not surprised. I feel sorry for those involved and wish them the best, but surprised? I am not.

[Jack D]

See post #90

[Icarus2001]

Any feedback on how this contract is working out?