Tigerair fleet change to B737.

[Icarus2001]

The other threads centered around the Bali debacle appear to have been removed. I thought the fleet change warranted a new thread of its own.

Can anyone shed any light on where the recruited guys are at? Are they doing type ratings, going to the A320, being let go?

Basically what is happening with regard to the change to 737? If in fact it is still happening.

Tigerair Australia to switch from A320 to 737 over next three years | Australian Aviation (http://australianaviation.com.au/2016/07/tigerair-australia-to-switch-from-a320-to-737-over-next-three-years/)

Tigerair Australia to add fourth 737 to fleet in December | Australian Aviation (http://australianaviation.com.au/2016/10/tigerair-australia-to-add-fourth-737-to-fleet-in-december/)

[BPA]

Still going ahead, just at a slower pace due to no DPS flying.

[717tech]

They never recruited externally onto the 737, it never got that far.

The whole Virgin Australia operation is in the air at the moment. There has never been more chances of the leader being shown the door. With that hopefully comes some actual common sense in holding onto the Airbus operation.

They have lost alot of good and experienced Airbus drivers already.


Tiger Air certainly did recruit onto the 737 externally.

[galdian]

Yes they recruited - or went through a process.

The Q is: has anyone been offered, and signed, a contract??
Oh - and a fixed, confirmed start date??

Cheers.

[davidclarke]

Yes they recruited - or went through a process.

The Q is: has anyone been offered, and signed, a contract??
Oh - and a fixed, confirmed start date??

Cheers.

Yes, quite a few contractors have been recruited onto the 737 and have been thru the type rating and started. They just aren't doing much ATM.......

[galdian]

OK - just to clarify Captains or F/O's or both?

Cheers.

[davidclarke]

OK - just to clarify Captains or F/O's or both?

Cheers.

Just F/O's.....

[Icarus2001]

They never recruited externally onto the 737, it never got that far.

Tiger Air certainly did recruit onto the 737 externally.

Yes they recruited - or went through a process.

I know it's a rumour network but is it possible to refrain from posting if you are guessing WHEELS DOWN.

Yes, quite a few contractors have been recruited onto the 737 and have been thru the type rating and started.

So type rated FOs but no flying at present? Not being seconded over to VA?

I guess there should be progress getting the B737 on the AOC then?

Seems like the timing is off if they are sitting around doing nothing.

[BPA]

The timing is off due to no DPS flying, as DPS was to be the first B737 Destination.

Expect the B737 flying to spool up at the end of this month or early May.

[coaldemon]

They apparently recruited one of CASA's top managers to help them get it all done. Started a few months ago so they should be getting close.

[Snakecharma]

Oh spare me

[Lookleft]

If he started a few months ago he has probably just finished sorting out the pens on his desk!

[compressor stall]

Latest I heard was tiger staying Airbus and the 737s going back to white with red writing....

[BPA]

Latest I heard was tiger staying Airbus and the 737s going back to white with red writing....

Only one 737 has returned to VA and it will be heading back to Tiger in May, hence it's flying around (all white) with no markings on it.

The removal of the Tiger A320's is part of the group fleet simplification plan.

[VH-ABC]

There's a plan BPA?

[Octane]

So, grab a Virgin 737, paint it into Tiger colours for a few months until things go pear shaped then paint it back into a Virgin for a while until it's time to repaint it back into a Tiger again?!
What a blast for the paint companies :}
Would love to know how much money and downtime has been spent on paint!
How much does it cost to paint a 737 anyway? Anyone?
Presumably the old paint has to be removed first to maintain payloads? I'm assuming it's hundreds of kilos of paint involved? No idea...

[BPA]

So, grab a Virgin 737, paint it into Tiger colours for a few months until things go pear shaped then paint it back into a Virgin for a while until it's time to repaint it back into a Tiger again?!
What a blast for the paint companies :}
Would love to know how much money and downtime has been spent on paint!
How much does it cost to paint a 737 anyway? Anyone?
Presumably the old paint has to be removed first to maintain payloads? I'm assuming it's hundreds of kilos of paint involved? No idea...

It wasn't been painted back into VA colours, it's all white ie they have just removed the Tiger livery.

[Octane]

Ah, a bit of paint stripper? Not so expensive then. Apologies..

[Deano969]

Not getting why fleet simplification is such a big when you have a 1 type fleet of A320s ?

[Icarus2001]

have a 1 type fleet of A320s ?

Across the Virgin group. Think of the big picture.

[virginexcess]

They apparently recruited one of CASA's top managers to help them get it all done. Started a few months ago so they should be getting close.

That clown exemplifies everything that is bad about CASA. I highly doubt that the operation will be better off having him there but it does serve to highlight the absolute vaccum of quality aviation managers in Australia.

[Deano969]

Totally get "across the Virgin group"
But just how much is shared
VA won't even fly a 737 in Tiger colours for a couple of months and VA are running a couple of 320s in WA

Separate admin, crew and attendants but I get that there would be savings for ground staff and maintenance

Likely more to do with finding homes for all the shiny new 737s they have committed to

VA seem to have no issue with going out and ordering new planes every few years and flogging of 5-6 year old frames in a buyers market
Maybe this is why QF is doing so much better with a fleet age of nearly 11 years versus VA at less than 7 years and less than 2 years away from a single isle fleet replacement

Why they don't buy their frames at the end of lease and run them up to 10-15 years old is just ludicrous
REX and Alliance both have fleets of over 20 year old frames and with the exception of the occasional prop falling off, they are both making better profits than VA
Alliance picked up their F70s and F100s for under $1 million each...or the 30 or so that they bought would still be less than 1 of VAs new 737s
Yes they drink more, but still....

[davidclarke]

Question, how does virgin have enough 737s to release to tiger when the are taking over the flying from the 18 odd Ejets being retired and also delaying the Max until at least late 2019?

[BPA]

Question, how does virgin have enough 737s to release to tiger when the are taking over the flying from the 18 odd Ejets being retired and also delaying the Max until at least late 2019?

Yes they do, with each aircraft flying more hours per day, rather than parked up for 2-4 hours a day. Remember not all Ejet flying will be replaced by 737 flying with Alliance picking up some of the flying as well.

[Falling Leaf]

Remember not all Ejet flying will be replaced by 737 flying with Alliance picking up some of the flying as well.

Which of course is a direct contravention to every communication from VA management regarding this issue...'All E-jet flying will be replaced with the 737..."

[chuboy]

Alliance will replace the 737 routes that don't have frames on them because the 737s are covering the E-jets ;)

[coaldemon]

They also have at least 6 NG's coming and are holding onto B737's that were going to be lease returns from memory. All adds up to more pilots required.

[Skystar320]

250kg of paint on a 737

[AerialPerspective]

Totally get "across the Virgin group"
But just how much is shared
VA won't even fly a 737 in Tiger colours for a couple of months and VA are running a couple of 320s in WA

Separate admin, crew and attendants but I get that there would be savings for ground staff and maintenance

Likely more to do with finding homes for all the shiny new 737s they have committed to

VA seem to have no issue with going out and ordering new planes every few years and flogging of 5-6 year old frames in a buyers market
Maybe this is why QF is doing so much better with a fleet age of nearly 11 years versus VA at less than 7 years and less than 2 years away from a single isle fleet replacement

Why they don't buy their frames at the end of lease and run them up to 10-15 years old is just ludicrous
REX and Alliance both have fleets of over 20 year old frames and with the exception of the occasional prop falling off, they are both making better profits than VA
Alliance picked up their F70s and F100s for under $1 million each...or the 30 or so that they bought would still be less than 1 of VAs new 737s
Yes they drink more, but still....
The answer is because VA are not a 'real' airline, they have very little expertise with anything, constantly demonstrate through the actions of their management that they have no idea about the industry or any wider knowledge beyond recognizing that an aeroplane has wings and engines. For example, who but WHO buys 777s and opts out the large rear Cargo Door so that no pallets can be loaded in the rear... a long range aircraft that can only accommodate pallets in the forward compartment(s). This is stupidity on a gross scale and it was done to 'save money'. Well, good, because no one is going to want to 'waste' money buying those aircraft second hand. Ansett did the same thing by buying 767s (the initial batch) without the wide cargo door at the front - none was available for the rear - so those aircraft couldn't be used economically or easily turned around compared to QF because every damn freight shipment had to be broken up across DPEs instead of put on a pallet so took longer to load and unload. AN did the same thing by opting to pay to remove the in hold systems on their A320s to save money on GSE, but ended up paying out probably 10 x that in WorkCover costs due to injuries manually loading such a large aircraft compared to the 737s, etc. VA also has magic-carpet in some of its 737s but only at one end so when they took the Foxtel Antennas off, it affected the ability to trim (it had to) because of the weight imbalance. I mean, what's the point of doing it at just one end??? QF don't do these things. All their 737s have magic carpet, all their aircraft are configured the same in terms of equipment, etc. from the 767s when they were flying (except for the BA ones) through to the A330s, etc. QF don't do stupid things like buying an aeroplane and removing stuff that makes it less saleable and they also - as you suggest - keep their aircraft until optimum financial benefit can be had from them. When you have experienced people in an airline - even one that has been gutted somewhat - that have in built corporate knowledge of basics like this, these sort of stupid mistakes don't happen.

[AerialPerspective]

Question, how does virgin have enough 737s to release to tiger when the are taking over the flying from the 18 odd Ejets being retired and also delaying the Max until at least late 2019?
I think they had been progressively reducing flying and had several aircraft 'parked' which were positioned strategically in MEL and BNE I believe as operational 'spares' which were for some time on a 'for sale' list. I think this is where the 'slack' in terms of being able to lose some of them came from - that and the fact they would be replacing most of the fleet with 737-MAX-8 anyway.

[AerialPerspective]

250kg of paint on a 737
That can't be right... I thought there was only about 400-450kg on a 747.

[VBA Engineer]

That can't be right... I thought there was only about 400-450kg on a 747.

Not even that much, about 250Kg on a 747.

Roughly 85Kg and a 737.

Painting versus Polishing of Airplane Exterior Surfaces (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_05/textonly/fo01txt.html)

[cavemanzk]

What is the go with VH-VOR? looks like is has recently been based in AKL, and painted all white after its short stint with TT.

Has it had an VA cabin re-installed, or are the J passengers up for an nice surprise when they arrive at the Airport.

Assuming its being crewed by VA (AKL Crew) or is it operated by TT still.

[skysook]

It's been handed back to VAI(NZ) temporarily to cover another 73 in heavy maintenance. Cabin is VA fitted and crew is VAI(NZ). It will go back to TT within the next few months.

[wheels_down]

Why is Alliance operating F100 for Tiger?

[SHVC]

Out of curiosity what would the cost of the internal fit out cost? Externally I don't think would be all that much as tiger and VA only have tail and engine cowl differences. Just seems like more wasted money by our top managers.

[Ollie Onion]

This has got to be costing an absolute bomb to chop and change like this.

[cavemanzk]

Out of curiosity what would the cost of the internal fit out cost? Externally I don't think would be all that much as tiger and VA only have tail and engine cowl differences. Just seems like more wasted money by our top managers.

From this photo taken in March, looks like they have recovered the headrests out of TT Yellow.

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/8541146

[DutyofCare]

Hey AerialPerspective (http://www.pprune.org/members/305778-aerialperspective) Guru / in the know & No Crap Master :ok:

Who is running under the Callsign TEGOS pls :confused:

Is it of any fact, AQZ are running TT flts ex MML :confused:

[Berealgetreal]

DutyofCare is right on the money. Actually, Alliance is on the money!

Mate of mine reckons Virgin is the best thing that ever happened to them. Going gang busters.

Basically Skywest, Tiger and Alliance are loving the "Game Change"...

[AerialPerspective]

Hey AerialPerspective (http://www.pprune.org/members/305778-aerialperspective) Guru / in the know & No Crap Master :ok:

Who is running under the Callsign TEGOS pls :confused:

Is it of any fact, AQZ are running TT flts ex MML :confused:
Sorry DoC, I'm not aware but assume it would be Alliance.

[Established]

TiggOz is Tigerair's new call sign since October last year. It has replaced GoCat.

[AerialPerspective]

TiggOz is Tigerair's new call sign since October last year. It has replaced GoCat.
Who cares about callsigns in that organisation anyway... VA's ICAO callsign is 'Velocity' which the aircraft use, yet the ground use 'Virgin' which is actually the Virgin Atlantic ICAO callsign yet they get away with it... even when VS was operating into Sydney. I just wonder why they don't get pulled up about it and forced to use Velocity for ground as well... what's the point of a callsign being registered if that's the case???

[coaldemon]

Are you talking about Ground SMC or the Ground Handler?

[AerialPerspective]

Are you talking about Ground SMC or the Ground Handler?
Airline operated equivalent in VA of QF Movement Control, whatever VA call it.

[Snakecharma]

Aerial perspective, the "virgin" callsign you refer to is a radio telephony callsign applicable to ATC comms.

The use of "Virgin" by Virgin AMCO on company frequency is not governed by the icao doc and they could call themselves "purple underpants with pink dots" if they wanted to.

Virgin Blue used "Virgin" as a radio telephony callsign for years - 2000 until about 2011 if I remember correctly under an agreement with Airservices. Even with Atlantic operating into Australia - the Atlantic Australian flight numbers were quarantined so there weren't any duplications.

It was only the push to get a common callsign across PB, the 777 operation and the Australian domestic operation that they switched to velocity

[AerialPerspective]

Aerial perspective, the "virgin" callsign you refer to is a radio telephony callsign applicable to ATC comms.

The use of "Virgin" by Virgin AMCO on company frequency is not governed by the icao doc and they could call themselves "purple underpants with pink dots" if they wanted to.

Virgin Blue used "Virgin" as a radio telephony callsign for years - 2000 until about 2011 if I remember correctly under an agreement with Airservices. Even with Atlantic operating into Australia - the Atlantic Australian flight numbers were quarantined so there weren't any duplications.

It was only the push to get a common callsign across PB, the 777 operation and the Australian domestic operation that they switched to velocity
Fair enough... be interesting to see if Part 64 mentions anything about it, I doubt it since it's a licensing reg basically. I just thought it was strange when I heard it... Qantas call themselves 'Qantas Melbourne', 'Qantas Sydney', 'Qantas Auckland', etc. they don't call themselves by any other call sign, same with BA, ground and air call themselves 'Speedbird'. Virgin has to be different. I just don't see what the big deal would be if they called themselves 'Velocity Sydney' for example.

[Snakecharma]

Have you considered that the ground station is identifying themselves?

They are Virgin Sydney not Velocity Sydney. Similarly contracted airlines call Qantas Sydney if they use Qantas for ground handling. If you are talking licensing regs I assume you mean Part 61?

As far as licensing is concerned I don't know if ground people require a flight radiotelephony licence - they used to if I remember correctly but not sure these days - but they could call themselves "Big Sky base" if they wanted

[Buster Hyman]

Have you considered that the ground station is identifying themselves?


That's how I read it. Back in the day, AN DOM & AN INTL ops both used Ansett Melbourne on different frequencies. (AN INTL was the GHA branch of AN)

[morno]

These are the issues currently in Australia, what a ground handler is called on the company frequency 😐

Seriously, who cares.

[Icarus2001]

and they could call themselves "purple underpants with pink dots" if they wanted to. Really? On a designated and licenced company aviation band frequency. That is a bold statement.

[rockarpee]

What an amazing thread this is

[Buster Hyman]

These are the issues currently in Australia, what a ground handler is called on the company frequency 😐

Seriously, who cares.

Wow. Just wow. :D:D:D

[AerialPerspective]

Have you considered that the ground station is identifying themselves?

They are Virgin Sydney not Velocity Sydney. Similarly contracted airlines call Qantas Sydney if they use Qantas for ground handling. If you are talking licensing regs I assume you mean Part 61?

As far as licensing is concerned I don't know if ground people require a flight radiotelephony licence - they used to if I remember correctly but not sure these days - but they could call themselves "Big Sky base" if they wanted
Yes... Qantas say "QANTAS TWO-NINER this is QANTAS SYDNEY". They do that because Qantas' ICAO callsign is Qantas. British Airways' is Speedbird and they don't say in London "BA London this is Speedbird Eleven" they say "Speedbird London". Carriers who are handled by Qantas call Qantas Sydney because that's what their route manual tells them to do because the handling is by Qantas and no one is going to answer if they use their own company callsign because there's no one there to answer. Every airline I'm aware of that calls it's own company groundstations uses it's ICAO call sign except VA. If there's a process to obtain callsigns and VS has "Virgin" but VA is allowed to use it, what is the point of getting callsigns and registering them in the first place, why not just use whatever they want???
And no, Part 64 CASR covers licensing for Radio Operators but I don't think it covers callsigns.

[AerialPerspective]

These are the issues currently in Australia, what a ground handler is called on the company frequency 😐

Seriously, who cares.
No, no one is saying it's an issue, just a comment that's all. It's supposed to be a discussion forum. No need to make a sarcastic comment just because you disagree. There is plenty of absolute CRAP on pprune such as 57 pages on a coloured logo on an aicraft which has nothing to do with day to day airline ops.

[BPA]

Yes... Qantas say "QANTAS TWO-NINER this is QANTAS SYDNEY". They do that because Qantas' ICAO callsign is Qantas. British Airways' is Speedbird and they don't say in London "BA London this is Speedbird Eleven" they say "Speedbird London". Carriers who are handled by Qantas call Qantas Sydney because that's what their route manual tells them to do because the handling is by Qantas and no one is going to answer if they use their own company callsign because there's no one there to answer. Every airline I'm aware of that calls it's own company groundstations uses it's ICAO call sign except VA. If there's a process to obtain callsigns and VS has "Virgin" but VA is allowed to use it, what is the point of getting callsigns and registering them in the first place, why not just use whatever they want???
And no, Part 64 CASR covers licensing for Radio Operators but I don't think it covers callsigns.

You need to go to the USA, as the majority of the operators have there have call signs that have nothing to do with the name of the Airline. You will hear call signs such as Redwood, cedarwood etc. Even Virgin America doesn't use Virgin as their call sign, yet when they call their company they address them by company name.

The issue with VA started when they expanded into international ops. If they stayed a domestic carry then the use of Virgin wold not have been a problem.

[Break Right]

FFS is this really what people have time to spend on.

[billykid]

Some TT passengers might get a nice ride soon.... Alliance just bought another F70 from the Dutch royal family.....


Dutch government plane sold to Australian airline for ?3,7 million | NL Times (http://nltimes.nl/2017/04/11/dutch-government-plane-sold-australian-airline-eu37-million)

[PoppaJo]

'China Southern 343 Hold short of alpha and Give way to the Velocity 737'

'Where is the Velocity, I see no Velocity'

'Give way to the 737 on your right'

'Ahh yes I see 737 give way, and where is the velocity coming'

:ugh:

[AerialPerspective]

FFS is this really what people have time to spend on.
I'm sorry I made the original (partly tongue in cheek) comment. Unfortunately pprune is getting like this, an innocent comment sometimes elicits pages and pages of argumentative back and forth. I'm done, I DO have better things to do than carry this on any further. This is almost as bad as the Gay Colors thread that went on for 57 pages and had ZERO do to with aviation... actually, no, it's not as bad as that.
I already acknowledged about 5 posts back other's viewpoints by saying "Fair enough..." FFS.

And someone mentioned above that I should go to the United States... no, I shouldn't and I hope we never base our standards in this country on that environment.

[The Baron]

Anyone know why Alliance F100s are doing around 7 flights a day out of Melbourne for Tiger?

[porch monkey]

Because now that they have some of the crew trained on the 737, they don't have enough crew to man the A320. Who would have thought........

[AerialPerspective]

Because now that they have some of the crew trained on the 737, they don't have enough crew to man the A320. Who would have thought........
That sounds like a more accurate summation... in the old days we used to talk about the 6 P's... Proper Planning Prevents P--- Poor Performance... that simple axiom seems to have been lost... (of course in order to properly plan one must know what they are doing first).

[bobsyauncle]

Any news on a return of revenue 737 flying?

[Icarus2001]

So any progress on getting the B737 on to the Tiger AOC? Any sign of a proving flight?

[Goat Whisperer]

Icarus...

any sign??? there have been about 100. Put VH-VUD into flightradar24 and see

4th knockback on 737 AOC I hear. That's... not good.

[737pnf]

Goat Whisperer
Did you hear anything further than simply they were knocked back again?

[Goat Whisperer]

Yes, 737pnf (shouldn't that be 737pm now?)

I heard a lot, but it's so unsubstantiated I can only boil it down to: not even close to being allowed to operate the 737 as they've applied for.

[ebt]

I guess there is a silver lining to all this, and that is delaying the penalties that they will have to pay to remove the leased A320s from the fleet. Most leases still have a few years to run.

[Goat Whisperer]

Offsetting the 737 pilots paid not to fly and the cost of chartering Alliance F100s?

[wheels_down]

I guess there is a silver lining to all this, and that is delaying the penalties that they will have to pay to remove the leased A320s from the fleet. Most leases still have a few years to run.
Other option is to bin the 737 fiasco and keep the Airbus. I really fail to see the point in all this mess for a token fleet of A320s, even more so that they are no longer going to Bali.

With rumoured potential new leadership changes at Virgin upcoming don't think it can be ruled out.

[bus 1975]

okay new to this so bear with me

Thought they had transferred over one 737 and were using this for training so 3 being used and the extra for training
and they are still recruiting for 737 or are they just going through process of converting contractors to F/os through the recruitment process

Who was it from Casa that came over ?

[Falling Leaf]

Other option is to bin the 737 fiasco and keep the Airbus. I really fail to see the point in all this mess for a token fleet of A320s, even more so that they are no longer going to Bali.

That would be the best and most common sense option, and therefore won't happen....

However, with a change of leadership.....

[Berealgetreal]

How hard can it be really..?

[737pnf]

Goat Whisperer - I think 737pnf is appropriate

This all doesn't make sense. 60 odd FOs and Capts being paid to do nothing; x number of FAs being paid to do nothing; 2x QQ F100s being wet leased daily; and the CEO is still sprouting positivity and massive growth ahead. TT grew 4.5% on the quarter compared to last year was the latest figure I saw.

The VA group has lost my confidence

[AerialPerspective]

Goat Whisperer - I think 737pnf is appropriate

This all doesn't make sense. 60 odd FOs and Capts being paid to do nothing; x number of FAs being paid to do nothing; 2x QQ F100s being wet leased daily; and the CEO is still sprouting positivity and massive growth ahead. TT grew 4.5% on the quarter compared to last year was the latest figure I saw.

The VA group has lost my confidence
Pretty good summary.

[TBM-Legend]

VA system meltdown earlier today...daughter delayed a couple of hours ex-MEL

[BPA]

VA system meltdown earlier today...daughter delayed a couple of hours ex-MEL

VA wasn't the only airline affected, it was a worldwide issue.

[dodgybrothers]

Surely that has to be it for CEOs of both outfits?

[413X3]

'China Southern 343 Hold short of alpha and Give way to the Velocity 737'

'Where is the Velocity, I see no Velocity'

'Give way to the 737 on your right'

'Ahh yes I see 737 give way, and where is the velocity coming'

:ugh:

If that confuses them they might have a mental panic after hearing a Qantas callsign on a big white and blue 747.

[AerialPerspective]

VA wasn't the only airline affected, it was a worldwide issue.
Would have been SABRE then.

[Buster Hyman]

So any progress on getting the B737 on to the Tiger AOC? Any sign of a proving flight?
I'm hearing it's done. Possibly last week.:confused:

[Goat Whisperer]

follow VH-VUD on fr24, still doing training flights after months and months.

Virgin Blue didn't need one tenth of the flights to get up and running from scratch!

[colebertos]

The official CASA proving flight was conducted on the 30th of May, it consisted of TT 9122 MEL-SYD, TT 9123 SYD-ADL and TT 9124 ADL-MEL. Mock flights were flown on the 26th with the same flight numbers to prepare the crew which included a diversion to Canberra. It was all flown with VH-VUD.

I have a copy of the passenger briefing if anyone is interested.

[PoppaJo]

So did they pass it?

[Berealgetreal]

Wonder in which balance sheet the costs of the whole excercise will be reflected. Wouldn't be cheap!

[skiinoz]

Virgin will be doing the maintenance for tiger after October, double the cost of the previous provider, VT engineers are on A320 courses now. Who makes this stuff up! "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Does no one in that organisation look back at what they did with the ATR's. Multiple AOG's because the engineers (all on 170k+) were, to busy, couldn't be arsed or didn't have a clue what they were doing. Watch Tigers maint costs and delays skyrocket after October.

[Watchdog]

TT's first 737 inaugural domestic RPT is Tuesday 6 Jun MEL-SYD.

[Lookleft]

Tuesday 6 Jun

Hopefully more like Utah than Omaha!:ok:

[SRM]

Virgin will be doing the maintenance for tiger after October, double the cost of the previous provider, VT engineers are on A320 courses now. Who makes this stuff up! "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Does no one in that organisation look back at what they did with the ATR's. Multiple AOG's because the engineers (all on 170k+) were, to busy, couldn't be arsed or didn't have a clue what they were doing. Watch Tigers maint costs and delays skyrocket after October.

Hey mate don't work for BAE by any chance.

[Berealgetreal]

TT's first 737 inaugural domestic RPT is Tuesday 6 Jun MEL-SYD.

"....they'll never compete on the same routes, they will focus on leisure markets"

[bus 1975]

So to bee clear as reading this thread it's as clear as mud

The three year date is pretty much out the window ?
And what's expected to happen with the a320s . And the staff associated with them .
Are. The a320 people expected to transfer across on a new type rating or redundant . Also what about the contractors ?

[wondrousbitofrough]

Virgin will be doing the maintenance for tiger after October, double the cost of the previous provider, VT engineers are on A320 courses now. Who makes this stuff up! "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Does no one in that organisation look back at what they did with the ATR's. Multiple AOG's because the engineers (all on 170k+) were, to busy, couldn't be arsed or didn't have a clue what they were doing. Watch Tigers maint costs and delays skyrocket after October.

Thanks for that glowing endorsement:ok:

[AerialPerspective]

Virgin will be doing the maintenance for tiger after October, double the cost of the previous provider, VT engineers are on A320 courses now. Who makes this stuff up! "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Does no one in that organisation look back at what they did with the ATR's. Multiple AOG's because the engineers (all on 170k+) were, to busy, couldn't be arsed or didn't have a clue what they were doing. Watch Tigers maint costs and delays skyrocket after October.
That'll be interesting... I've heard of delays at VA in the past because VT walk past, see a panel open (like the toilet or water) and just leave it... 'not my job'... block headed attitude (allegedly) of 'it's not my job so I'll just let the aircraft be delayed'... yet people still reckon VA is the better of the two airlines when it comes to attitude of personnel... I wonder, if the above is true.

[porch monkey]

So by your metric, the honey cart driver should close the odd baggage door or cowl if he sees it left open?

[skiinoz]

So by your metric, the honey cart driver should close the odd baggage door or cowl if he sees it left open?
Reply

WTF????

[SRM]

So by your metric, the honey cart driver should close the odd baggage door or cowl if he sees it left open?
Reply

WTF????

I think you need help mate. No point going off half cocked about things,firstly you really no nothing about and secondly WTF has it got to do with you anyway.

[Goat Whisperer]

back to topic...

it seems Tigerair have flown one 737 (VH-VUD) on a couple of days worth of domestic flights.

The two other airframes haven't flown since Feb.

[AerialPerspective]

So by your metric, the honey cart driver should close the odd baggage door or cowl if he sees it left open?
No, obviously I wouldn't advocate a person not trained to do something but an engineer seeing a panel open (for which he/she is capable and trained to operate) and calling someone to close it rather than doing it him/herself and letting the flight be delayed and pax inconvenienced as a result is just being a turd, when all other functions are finished and the aircraft is ready to go.

The more appropriate action since the Engineer would be entirely capable of closing the panel would be to do it, then go and tell the driver or his supervisor that he'd left the panel open and it 'could' have caused a delay.

It would be no different to a box of amenities sitting on an aerobridge and a ground/pax handling person refusing to hand them to the cabin crew but instead calling a caterer back to the aircraft to do it. Even more ridiculous when it comes from a company that's always going on about 'teamwork' and being a 'team'.

[skiinoz]

I think you need help mate. No point going off half cocked about things,firstly you really no nothing about and secondly WTF has it got to do with you anyway.

Just commenting on a forum SRM, and I would say I am eminently qualified to do so. Why don't you wind your neck in, and as I said wait for October. 😜

[porch monkey]

A.P. Firstly, I have NEVER heard of an engineer doing that. You admit yourself it was heresay anyway. Ultimately, the dispatcher's final task before push is to ensure all external doors, hatches etc are closed. He has the wherewithal to do so. So how that is going to delay a flight is a bit hard to figure. I know you hate VA, and I agree with some of what you have to say, but sometimes dude, have a think before you post utter crap.

[SRM]

Just commenting on a forum SRM, and I would say I am eminently qualified to do so. Why don't you wind your neck in, and as I said wait for October. 😜

That comment sounds very British, Immmmmmmm.

[Bellcrank 74]

Virgin will be doing the maintenance for tiger after October, double the cost of the previous provider, VT engineers are on A320 courses now. Who makes this stuff up! "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Does no one in that organisation look back at what they did with the ATR's. Multiple AOG's because the engineers (all on 170k+) were, to busy, couldn't be arsed or didn't have a clue what they were doing. Watch Tigers maint costs and delays skyrocket after October.



Stick with your A350's :ok:

[AerialPerspective]

A.P. Firstly, I have NEVER heard of an engineer doing that. You admit yourself it was heresay anyway. Ultimately, the dispatcher's final task before push is to ensure all external doors, hatches etc are closed. He has the wherewithal to do so. So how that is going to delay a flight is a bit hard to figure. I know you hate VA, and I agree with some of what you have to say, but sometimes dude, have a think before you post utter crap.
It was not hearsay, it was an actual incident and not the only one that I could list. I however painted it as 'vague' because I do not wish to go into chapter and verse, just offering an item that comes from personal experience that was not the only example - the reason I posted it is because I never heard of it happening before either (in any other airline I have personal experience of). There are idiots in every airline I am sure, nay, in every workplace but some of the things I've seen are nothing more than people being obtuse and arrogant which is why I posted it as the experience and others was one particular group (not all obviously) that just defied belief in terms of arrogance and obscure excuse-generating apparatus along with certain management who would do nothing about it.

[737pnf]

I wondered if any of you can confirm my latest whisperings?

TT have so heavily (internally) recruited pilots for their 737 fleet, that they've had to recruit 320 pilots, while the 7'3 cohort (most of them who hold a 320 TR) earn a full wage for doing nothing...

TT sent a handful of new recruits to the sims in akl for their 320 TR

The NZ 320 sims aren't on the CASA register as an approved training provider, so the TT 320 recruits also join the enviable position of earning a full wage and...doing nothing

Do any of you have your ears so accurately tuned to respond to this?

[morno]

I highly doubt CASA would not recognise a type rating conducted by a NZ company.

The sim doesn't have to be approved by CASA (unless things have changed with Part 61, I don't know. I did my TR pre-part 61), it only has to be approved by an authority that CASA recognises or some words to that affect. In this case, the NZ CAA.

So I don't know if your rumour is very accurate.

From the guys I speak to in Tiger, they're flat out on the 320's.

morno

[Pastor of Muppets]

Shouldn't this be in the GA forum?

[Water Wings]

I wondered if any of you can confirm my latest whisperings?

TT have so heavily (internally) recruited pilots for their 737 fleet, that they've had to recruit 320 pilots, while the 7'3 cohort (most of them who hold a 320 TR) earn a full wage for doing nothing...

TT sent a handful of new recruits to the sims in akl for their 320 TR

The NZ 320 sims aren't on the CASA register as an approved training provider, so the TT 320 recruits also join the enviable position of earning a full wage and...doing nothing

Do any of you have your ears so accurately tuned to respond to this?
Considering JQ sometimes use the Air New Zealand A320 sims in Auckland, that element of any rumour would not stack up.

[Chocks Away]

737pnf - Air EnZed is a "recognised Training Organisation" which meets/exceeds CASA requirements. I utilised them many years ago with a 777 Sim Recurrent check.

[737pnf]

I THINK is was a Part 61 thing, but I didn't get all the info

Thanks for clearing that up

[Chocks Away]

Bro'town has been Part 61 compliant for a long time and now Australia is... in it's own peculiar way :} so it's one in the same now but wasn't an issue previously either.

Jump on the CASA website to search for "Recognised Training Organisations" or search the Air'Bro Academy website for it's Foreign approvals. Simples :p

[Aloha_KSA]

... Thread going askew... IMHO the 737s going to Tigerair, the contract-only hiring of new pilots at Tigerair... the "fleet consolidation" at Virgin. Big picture: Downsize Virgin domestic and shift to Tigerair to be staffed with pilots from Virgin group seniority list. Lay off the contractors. "Thank you for coming. Best of luck." Any thoughts?

[coaldemon]

Probably not far from the actual outcome whether intended or not by TT and VA Management

[Falling Leaf]

Freeze on any VA pilots going to TT until Jul 18 as VA are already 250 odd pilots short.

[porch monkey]

May or may not be true Aloha. But when you sign a contract that says 12 or 18 months do you expect lifetime employment?

[Icarus2001]

as VA are already 250 odd pilots short.

There are plenty of ODD pilots around.

It would appear VA are now recruiting externally on to the B737 again.

[Aloha_KSA]

May or may not be true Aloha. But when you sign a contract that says 12 or 18 months do you expect lifetime employment?

Begs a question, though: if VA is so short, why the contract pilot hiring at Tiger?

[porch monkey]

Originally to get the 737 operation up and running, hence the time limited contracts. Given the complete cluster**** it has become, now your guess is as good as mine.......:sad:

[morno]

The agreement signed earlier this year or late last year (can't remember when it was already), enables TT and VA crew to go between either from July next year, but protects command upgrades for existing TT crew (those on the seniority list as at April last year).

This was all covered some time ago. Appears some people have short memories.

morno

[porch monkey]

Given the information you've been given from various sources above, I guess you'd be wrong.

[davidclarke]

From what I have heard has nothing to do with the 737. It was all to keep certain unions happy.

Certainly doesn't have any advantages for the TT crew.

[morno]

Even if it's for more than just getting the 737 up and running Willie, the deed that was signed prevents them from hiring permanent employees until such time as the deed is active and everyone in the Virgin group has had their opportunity to shuffle their chairs if they so choose. THEN, and only then, can a contractor be offered a permanent position, with a DOJ effective from the day they stopped being a contractor. And for any contract Captains, they can't retain their position as Captains beyond their contract.

Keep in mind that 80 may seem like a high number, but they still haven't gotten rid of any A320's, so they still need crew to fly the A320's while the existing crews are trained on the 737. There will be an excess of crew at some point (without taking into account any attrition), but the whole point of the contracts is so that once it's all done, then they can get rid of this excess when it's no longer needed.

So it sounds like any info you have is just to stir the pot.

morno

[SHVC]

Nah Willie, I don't think they really are laughing, not even sure if its a factor if they have it or not. JQ may be taking guys from TT with 320 type rating, they still make them do the type rating again regardless. I have had mates start with couple thousand hrs on the 320 at JQ and they were still made to do it all again in the U.K.

[davidclarke]

Nah Willie, I don't think they really are laughing, not even sure if its a factor if they have it or not. JQ may be taking guys from TT with 320 type rating, they still make them do the type rating again regardless. I have had mates start with couple thousand hrs on the 320 at JQ and they were still made to do it all again in the U.K.


SHVC
I have a colleague that went over to JQ from TT and the type rating was fully recognised. They only had to do 4-6 sims from memory then a small amount of line training.

From my understating the deed was put in place to allow VA pilots to come across when there were talks of redundancies. This obviously never eventuated and now VA are 150ish pilots short therefore making the deed null and void. The big kick in the teeth for the contractors is that virgin are currently hiring pilots and that means that the pilots they hire or soon will hire will have seniority in the group over the contractors. This is particularly frustrating for them considering many contract pilots wish to stay on.

[Icarus2001]

they still make them do the type rating again regardless. Unlikely. More likely is that they undertook sim training to learn the Jetstar procedures.

[PoppaJo]

What utter rubbish. I went across with many thousands of hours on the bus but was never asked to do a new type rating. 4 sim sessions.

Had they requested such I would have told them where to stick it and not leave my previous job!

[porch monkey]

I guess I just don't get it. What part of "contract" implies anything other than "contract"? Things in the greater wide world can change overnight. Companies change their mind overnight. Jesus, had you been keeping track of the mismanagement goings on at Virgin over the last 2 years, why on earth would you take anything at face value?
You sign the contract, if you agree to what is in it, you work it, and you move on. Or stay if the opportunity presents. The terms are in the contract. As for VA employing on the 737 now, if you like the look of that, you can always apply. The grass isn't always greener.

[737pnf]

Titan Slave - ROFL!

What's going on defies belief both within, and from outside of the aviation community. And it's not just pilots. There's countless FAs doing SFA as well.

No sims carried out in June, none rostered in July - because they "need THE GUYS to fly" - "the guys" being the Training Captains?? Who knows. But if that's the case, wouldn't you hold off for another month or two, train up normal Captains and FO's, allowing normal crew to fly the planes while the training crew continued to train??

As for the contractors taking their type rating to VA, I'd have to agree with porch monkey about the colour of the grass...JT leaving unplanned with Blunty taking the slack temporarily, JB's "Better Business Plan" - the VA GROUP (not just the airline) seem like they're sailing without a Captain at the moment

[737pnf]

Hello viewers
Can anyone provide insight as to why so many pilots are on the ground yet still being paid a full wage?
Why didn't TT establish a hold pool of pilots?
Is the reason TT pilots are being paid to do nothing, because there is a WORLDwide shortage of 737 sim time?
Why are TT still hiring, despite this worldwide shortage of sim time?
Is it ALSO a case of TT trying to uptake pilots now, and thus drying out the amount of pilots available to other airlines, ensuring the businesses viability in time to come?

Something just doesn't add up. The VA group are bleeding money unnecessarily. It's like big change is coming and TT, VA, and the VA group are trying to keep a lid on it for as long as possible. Oh to be a fly on the wall in JB/Blunty's office...

[Icarus2001]

because there is a WORLDwide shortage of 737 sim time? Have you got any evidence of this?

Boeing in Brisbane are definitely not running their sims 24 hours a day. Whether this is due to a lack of instructors is possible but since I am not seeing adverts for sim instructors then I doubt it.

Is the reason TT pilots are being paid to do nothing, because there is a WORLDwide shortage of 737 sim time?

Wasn't it because it took TT a great deal longer than expected to get the B737 on to their AOC to allow training?

[morno]

You're very interested in the whole Tigerair 737 thing aren't you PNF.

[Buster Hyman]

Can anyone provide insight as to why so many pilots are on the ground yet still being paid a full wage?
You'll get a career in Management if you can figure out a fair way not to pay them!
Why are TT still hiring, despite this worldwide shortage of sim time?
Fleet transistion. Onwards & upwards.
Is it ALSO a case of TT trying to uptake pilots now, and thus drying out the amount of pilots available to other airlines, ensuring the businesses viability in time to come?
I don't think there's a Pilot Production line but I do think their Fleet transition answers most, if not all, of your questions.

[737pnf]

morno - I try to keep my ear to the ground. Am interested to see what others can add to the topic.

Icarus - that's the reason I've heard. I saw the VA sim roster about a month ago which showed buggerall excess availability - something like 2 hours excess per week or per month, I can't remember. Apart from that it was flat out. I know TT sent a lot of pilots to Miami for their initial type rating.

Have either of you, or any others, got any other reason why an airline would give away in excess of $6m per annum, when the groups books heavily feature red already, for employees to sit at home doing nothing?

Or any of my other questions?

[No Idea Either]

There's no conspiracy PNF. Management just completely mismanaged the whole thing. Yes, they're being paid for doing nothing but that's not their fault. Some management turkey should take a fall for it but in the usual fashion they got promoted! Go figure...........

[737pnf]

You have to be kidding, re -
Administrative flexibility behind Tigerair USA traffic rights | Australian Aviation (http://australianaviation.com.au/2017/08/administrative-flexibility-behind-tigerair-usa-traffic-rights/)

[coaldemon]

How do they get around the Air Navigation Act? Being owned by VAA means that TT is more than 50% foreign owned I would have thought. Same issue that brought them a cropper in Indonesia

[wheels_down]

Tiger is 100% owned by an Australian listed company that's why, forget Virgin's shareholding for a minute it's not Tiger. The Etihad/Singapore etc relationship is irrelevant.

From what I gather Tiger is controlled by Virgin. Etihad et al have no say. In saying this who profits in Tiger's earnings?

[morno]

What's the problem 737pnf?

It's only an administrative thing. Quite smart if you ask me. Why restrict yourself for future possibilities?

morno

[SHVC]

Well, no one does wheels.. like VA, Tigerair also ran at a loss about 28 or so million this FY.

[737pnf]

Why?
Because the application probably cost them money. Money that they don't have.
At the very least, it cost resources within HQ time. Time (and money?) that JB/Blunty/PW should be investing in resources to perfect the 737 operation, instead of getting ready for what would require an additional type on the AOC

[davidclarke]

Why?
Because the application probably cost them money. Money that they don't have.
At the very least, it cost resources within HQ time. Time (and money?) that JB/Blunty/PW should be investing in resources to perfect the 737 operation, instead of getting ready for what would require an additional type on the AOC
What they should have done is leave TT alone and let them make money which is what they were on the cusp of doing, instead of getting involved and changing fleets which has cost $$$. I agree with fleet simplification but the 320 was perfect for the operation they were doing and doing well.

[morno]

A321NEO would have been a much better aeroplane to do it than Old 737's.

[No Idea Either]

But then leasing costs would have blown everything out even further Morno

[AerialPerspective]

What they should have done is leave TT alone and let them make money which is what they were on the cusp of doing, instead of getting involved and changing fleets which has cost $$$. I agree with fleet simplification but the 320 was perfect for the operation they were doing and doing well.
Every sentence about VA starts with "What they should have done" - either because the management are stultifying in their stupidity or they actually sit around and ask "What's the worst approach to this or that..." and then do the worst.

It is unbelievable that a company that has now lost billions would stuff around with the only part of that business that is making or about to make a profit... but... then again, this is VA.

[Berealgetreal]

The domestic Virgin B737 I'm told has only lost money for a brief period in the capacity war with QF.

Then again every pilot thinks it's their fleet that's saving the company from financial oblivion.

[wheels_down]

So back to the original question...

Why has the 737 operation stalled? The Airbus fleet isn't even up for lease yet. Half the fleet was meant to be gone by now (original plan).

[The Bullwinkle]

Half the fleet was meant to be gone by now (original plan).
There was a plan???.....

[wheels_down]

Well they didn't have a Plan B, that's where they got caught. They were pretty cocky on getting that 737 AOC last November they spent millions on crewing, scheduling and even loaded all the flights for booking like it was a done deal. Then came the bad news.

[porch monkey]

Add to that the Bali debacle and various other F#ckups large and small, and what happens to the person presiding over it? He's now what?:eek: You couldn't make this **** up.

[737pnf]

wheels_down - there's some hefty losses being charted up on the VA Group Annual Report.
Released today, page 17 of the AR (#19 of the pdf document) shows, despite revenue and income of 543m (an increase of 14% from last year), that tiger made a loss of 24m for FY17.
Head-shaking results really...
Maybe the Bali debacle; the "lack of available simulator time" to train 737 pilots; and the struggles to get the 737 suite of manuals accepted by CASA may've been unforseeable (arguably, terribly mismanaged), but surely they would've been better pumping that spent money into developing tiger based on an A320 fleet? Other LCC seem to successfully use them - AirAsia, Jetstar, easyjet, jetblue...

[AerialPerspective]

Add to that the Bali debacle and various other F#ckups large and small, and what happens to the person presiding over it? He's now what?:eek: You couldn't make this **** up.
He get's a massive bonus again this year... that's what happens... along with the rest of the loss-inducing management team because they've made up some new buzz word 'positive cash flow' and it improved so they get big bonuses.

[porch monkey]

And on it goes, AP, and on it goes........

[AerialPerspective]

And on it goes, AP, and on it goes........
Ad infinitum, Ad Nauseam PM with no end in sight... wish I could earn that sort of money without any need to be diligent or achieve goals.

[wheels_down]

Is the whole Boeing thing officially dead?

Are they attempting to quietly exit the 737 hoping nobody will notice? Failure on so many levels.

[737pnf]

Hard to say...flightaware shows each of the three registrations are operating return from one destination per day (two flights - there and back. PER, BNE, and CNS all feature).
There's meant to be a fourth being added to the fleet...not too sure what timing or tail number that'll be. Possibly VOM
The 737 HOTC has given notice that he is stepping down and leaving the company; whilst the HOTC for the company is stepping down to become a line captain. Hardly stuff that gives you confidence for what's going on inside HQ

[Oakape]

VH-VOR was taken from TT & moved to VAINZ to cover some maintenance at the beginning of this year. It is operating as a 'white tail'. Was supposed to be going back to Oz mid May, but is still in NZ.

[chickoroll]

Guessing the FOs realised what a cluster TT is and have sought other employment, now TT are short.

[wishiwasupthere]

Still waiting for them to drop their ATPL requirement 🤞

They're the only airline still holding out now. Cobham no longer require an ATPL.

[chickoroll]

Not even sure why any airline or low cost operator operating Jet aircraft would have the requirement to have an ATPL for new FO in Australia anyway, it is pointless. Any new hire would be waiting 15+ at QF, VA even longer at JQ now from what I hear.

[pilotchute]

Rumour is none of the Tiger checkers can do ATPL check rides. Not that it really matters as I don't think they will be upgrading anyone soon.

[737pnf]

Bugger those who are applying now didn't get in a few months ago. Last time I checked, they were after A320 contractors, bonded for a mere 10 months! Now it's back up to 36.
Wonder who's taking over the HR dept? TS (head of HR) along with several other key, long standing employees within HQ, has resigned recently.
Should I mention both unions have moved for rights to pursue PIA (protected industrial action)?

TULSAMI - do yourself a favour - go and get those exams completed ;)

[galdian]

Management would be fine - take the extra $$, have weekends off and just hope it all holds together until retirement.

Leadership - be nice to throw a bit of that into the company.

As always how many of their problems are solely internal Vs problems as bequeathed from the mothership debatable, based on the 737 debacle the "pissup in a brewery" pretty much describes the corperate capabilities on display.

Outside appearances are from Borghetti down nobody gives a sh*t anymore.

[framer]

I’ve seen that requirement disappear at another Airline with one sentence from the CP.
HR: “ we have nobody left in the hold pool and very few new applicants”
CP: “ ok, drop the hours by 500 and get rid of the ATPL”.

[Ozgrade3]

I wonder how the Corporate operators are faring in the US, are they bleeding to the majors or is it the other way round.

[wheels_down]

Whats the holdup? Original plan years back had the Tiger fleet all 737 as of mid this year.

The Virgin group have the 737s, its not a fleet shortage here. I assume they are having problems getting out of the Airbus Leases?

Whats the holdup folks? This is the worlds slowest fleet conversion I have ever seen.

[morno]

It all started going wrong when someone said “what if we.....” and that was the end.

Shame, because Tiger was really going great until Virgin took over the entire thing and started to Virginise it.

[Chadzat]

Bit like Skywest really....

[grrowler]

When was Tiger doing well?? I can remember the time they got shut down by CASA, and the other time they kept losing money and were given away by Singapore rather than close the doors.

[morno]

When was Tiger doing well?? I can remember the time they got shut down by CASA, and the other time they kept losing money and were given away by Singapore rather than close the doors.

How about the time when they were making money, had good morale, were kicking Jetstar’s ass in OTP and Cancellation rates.

[grrowler]

So the period after Virgin took over some of the costs and handed over ready made routes, but before they clustered the Bali flying (also ex VA)?
But I agree, virginisation has few winners 😎

[morno]

So the period after Virgin took over some of the costs and handed over ready made routes, but before they clustered the Bali flying (also ex VA)?
But I agree, virginisation has few winners 😎

No, before that. There were no “ready made routes” given to Tigerair during the period I’m referring to.

Let’s not turn this into another “they stole my job just like Jetstar stole my Qantas career” argument.

People don’t seem to get the whole “think as a group” concept.

[stormfury]

Virgin Australia appoints Merren McArthur as Tigerair boss | afr.com (http://www.afr.com/business/transport/aviation/virgin-australia-appoints-merren-mcarthur-as-tigerair-boss-20180321-h0xrsa)

These paragraphs stood out.

Mr Borghetti said she had transformed and strengthened its regional airline and cargo business and he was "confident that she will make an invaluable contribution in this new role".

Ms McArthur said her first focus when she starts is to learn about the business by listening to its staff and stakeholders, a strategy she used when she entered Skywest to get a handle on its business model.

She said one of the aspects of running Tigerair that appealed to her was the innovation under way in the airline designed to help lower its costs but improve customer experience.

For example, Tigerair is replacing its fleet of Airbus A320s with Boeing 737s, which typically offer a similar number of seats. But the 737s will be fitted out with new "slim line" seats that Ms McArthur says allows for an extra six passengers but maintains leg room and existing space for passengers in the aircraft.

[Icarus2001]

Love the language. Changing fleets does not "improve the customer experience" especially with slimline seats. They are all about "an extra six passengers" sharing the same cabin space and waiting for the toilets.

[wheels_down]

Tony then Chris, Shelley, Crawford, Tony again, Andrew, Rob and now Merren.

The merry go round of Tiger bosses rolls on. Tony Davis would be proud.

[grrowler]

Tigerair Australia has completed a challenging turnaround, with its first annual profit. The LCC, now a fully owned subsidiary of Virgin Australia, was profitable for the first time in its nine-year history in the year ending 30-Jun-2016.

Synergies with Virgin Australia, operational improvements and network adjustments have contributed to the transformation. Virgin Australia has joined its rival Qantas in employing an effective two brand strategy, with Tigerair Australia focused entirely on the leisure sector. quote from CAPA article

Get the “Big Picture, Greater Good of the Group”, but pretending Tiger did that on their own is having a lend.

[morno]

I don't think I ever claimed that Tiger did it on their own grrowler, but there certainly wasn't a fleet transformation going on at that time and they were left a bit to their own devices to get on with it.

As soon as the fleet transformation started and everything else commenced, it all fell apart.

morno

[ASY68]

VHVNJ and VHVNQ are both in Clark presently.

VHVNJ is getting a repaint to return to the wild west ;)

VHVNQ is being returned to the lessor.

Keep an eye out for VOR heading back to TSV for a repaint...AGAIN...

[PPRuNeUser0182]

Shame, because Tiger was really going great until Virgin took over

Really?! The going got great bit is because virgin took over.

[wheels_down]

Fleet conversion to be signed off with 6 months.

All A320s removed. Only replacing with 2 737s from Virgin NZ.

That’s a lot of Airbus drivers left in limbo.

What an opp for the competition to take these guys on.

[das Uber Soldat]

Assuming that's true, what's the total fleet size after this adjustment?

[wheels_down]

8.

So basically Tiger is being cut in half.

I imagine the entire operation being based from Tullamarine.

Bit of a leg up for the Star here.

[Double_Clutch]

Interesting reading the financials on the ASX.....

[Berealgetreal]

Assuming that's true, what's the total fleet size after this adjustment?
8 737NG’s.

Anyone know where the 320’s go? Leased owned? Parked in desert next to the rest of the exited fleet?

[wheels_down]

About 100 pilots and 400 Cabin crew this will impact

Can Virgin use these 100 odd pilots elsewhere?

If not, I hope they look after seniority in the Airbus fleet. Obviously I don’t really see it fair that 10-15 year Pilots still on the Airbus get given the boot for the large amount of newer 737s pilots that joined in recent years. Nothing against the new joiners, but essentially the top 100 Seniority should remain. Largely, this is all crew prior to any introduction of the 737.

I mean look after your most loyal first right? Considering these guys have been dragged through the $hit ten times over than new hires.

[Green.Dot]

Problem is when a company has no money to pay for more senior pilots to do conversion courses on to 737 I suspect you can ignore the seniority list and there is nothing Fair Work can do about it. VA is bleeding and has to stop spending everywhere possible. I hope I am wrong

[burned_out]

Tigerair, the arse end of VA

Terrible mismanagement of the company, MILLIONS wasted on an ineffective 737 fleet change, and the corona virus is the perfect time to axe staff for the 'snakes in suits'... must have been the Airbus fleet costing money hey boys, or your need to keep your high wages!

Thanks for the nothing promises chief. They were asked 1 month ago about redundancies and base closures, and their answer was it's all dandy.... not expecting any of it!
No plan B, just axing staff and relying on a grounded aircraft as a plan. F*ckwits.

I'm glad that our illustrious overpaid chief pilot got a better job "that was to good to refuse" just before this announcement!
Rat's jumping ship.... I'm sure with a bonus as well.

Bunch of hypocrites. The lot of them

[Ollie Onion]

So what is happening? Is talk of redundancy at Tiger accurate or speculation.

[Ollie Onion]

Really sorry to hear that, good luck, hopefully it will be managed better than just redundancy.

[Servo]

Tigerair, the arse end of VA

Terrible mismanagement of the company, MILLIONS wasted on an ineffective 737 fleet change, and the corona virus is the perfect time to axe staff for the 'snakes in suits'... must have been the Airbus fleet costing money hey boys, or your need to keep your high wages!

Thanks for the nothing promises chief. They were asked 1 month ago about redundancies and base closures, and their answer was it's all dandy.... not expecting any of it!
No plan B, just axing staff and relying on a grounded aircraft as a plan. F*ckwits.

I'm glad that our illustrious overpaid chief pilot got a better job "that was to good to refuse" just before this announcement!
Rat's jumping ship.... I'm sure with a bonus as well.

Bunch of hypocrites. The lot of them

They certainly did. In fact via email as well as the phone conference. A such this corona virus has been a "savior" for poor management and restructuring. They will just blame EVERYTHING on that.

Never waste a good crisis - Winston Churchill.

Good luck boys and girls. No consolation, but remember that it was not your doing. Didnt help flying Virgin 737 and Tiger A320 out of the same port at the same time with low loads in both.

[PPRuNeUser0182]

I truly feel sick thinking about how today's news must be affecting you guys (and any others) right now caught up in everything that's going on. I sincerely wish you all the best in however which way this plays out... :uhoh:

[PoppaJo]

If they are talking forced redundancies, I assume it would be via the seniority list. Have they said how redundancies would be done?The EBA is a little murky around that one. They did have a large influx of Pilots arrive at the time the 737 arrived. So if its via Senority List, essentially you would be making a large chunk of the current 737 Team Redundant, and a large chunk of the The Airbus Team remain. However, you then have no 737 Pilots. But that is really not the issue for the longer serving Airbus folks, why is it their problem that 737 conversion was left to last in Sydney and Brisbane, and many were sent there to keep the Airbus side of the business going. But they then need to train the remaining 100 odd new Pilots, all of whom are new to type. I am sure no matter what, it will be an absolute shambles however they attempt it, as like with everything they do there.

53.10 To avoid doubt, a Pilot covered by this Agreement cannot be required to give up their position or base because of redundancies in the Virgin Australia Wide Body, Narrow Body, New Zealand based operations or Virgin Australia Regional operations or other Group Pilots integrated on the Virgin Australia Group Pilots’ List. A Pilot covered by this Agreement can only be made redundant if a position covered by this Agreement is made redundant.

[Brakerider]

At absolute worst, they should be making the newly hired cadets redundant and offering ATR and SO positions to affected crew. I’m sure most 320 drivers would be qualified to Capt the ATR.

[QldPilotGuy]

Ok guys and girls, i'm sorry but a rant is about to be issued so if you aren't interested hop of this ride.

Tiger Pilots & Crew were notified of this massive reduction via the general public ASX Half Yearly results. Many crew were in the air having departed pre-announcement and landed with 50 msgs on their phones telling them from other crew that they were all out of a job. This is AFTER the Virgin CEO personally stated that there would be NO Tiger base closures and no redundancy because Tiger was an integral part of the future Virgin Group framework. (in person on board the plane)
Why on earth would you make the announcement that you need to do route reviews and reduce your fleet size but instead of touching VA Mainline where ALL the losses have been occurring for the last decade, but THEN you axe the part of the company that has been producing profits and solid loads before the idiotic fleet transition occurred.
ARE YOU SERIOUS ! Why would you not reduce the VA Fleet by 10 aircraft and do a 1 for 1 replacement so that you can run Tiger as a single fleet airline and run it to its potential ? Or why would you not run 4 B737's out of both BNE and MEL so that you could still target the JQ part of the market ?
Tiger has literally only just checked to line the last hire and here VA are stepping in and culled 100 Pilots all trained and qualified on the A320 and they say that all options were looked at and this was the only way forward.

I have been a proud loyalist of the entire VA group and honestly thought with the new CEO stepping in and his plan of expanding Tiger that we were heading in the right direction, so much so that I invested in VA shares. How I was wrong, I can only hope that the Tiger A320 Pilot Group and Cabin Crew Group can find greener pastures where they aren't thrown away because it can help the mainline bottom line for a brief second and make people think they are doing better then they are.

Well Done Virgin, Investing in your staff as always !

[Superman1]

Love that this fleet simplification is coming to an end... it’s been such an efficient process and Virgin have once again been the industry leader showing the rest of the world how well a project can be delivered.....ahhh the sweet feeling of mission accomplished everything is now so simple and cost effective :D....wait a minute.....after all of that did we just give several A320s to VARA so haven’t really simplified anything ??? Oh I guess we should start again :ugh:

[Low Pass]

Hearing secondhand that some junior Tiger airbus FOs been made redundant over the last few days. So much for the Consultation. Any confirmation?

[Buster Hyman]

Lucky the Union guys got onto the 737 early. To ensure representation of course....

[drunk_pilot]

Lucky the Union guys got onto the 737 early. To ensure representation of course....

I don’t know who you’re referring to, but the 2 union / TPC reps in Sydney have done no such thing, and their jobs are just as insecure as anyone else in the base, and they have been nothing but fantastic. True professionals with absolute integrity, and good blokes to boot. This comes from an FO that is soon to be unemployed.

[Paragraph377]

Virgin simply can’t keep propping up TT financially. It’s a disaster and it hasn’t helped having a succession of CEO’s who are equally as stupid as Virgins legacy of idiot CEO’s. funniest thing was that in 2019 Tigerair was found to have the unhealthiest reputation in the airline sector, even worse than the infamous Malaysian Airlines. From the 100 most recognisable companies in Australia it finished 98th with only Adani and Centrelink faring worse. Not a good place to be.

[Colonel_Klink]

Virgin simply can’t keep propping up TT financially. It’s a disaster and it hasn’t helped having a succession of CEO’s who are equally as stupid as Virgins legacy of idiot CEO’s. funniest thing was that in 2019 Tigerair was found to have the unhealthiest reputation in the airline sector, even worse than the infamous Malaysian Airlines. From the 100 most recognisable companies in Australia it finished 98th with only Adani and Centrelink faring worse. Not a good place to be.

The brand is in real trouble (and has been for a number of years - arguably sine the grounding) and the above stat shows that - and the marketing people would be well aware of all this.

Perhaps the consolidation of the fleet will enable TT to get its house in order for 6-12 months for it to then follow this up by a rebranding which is exactly what it needs to start afresh.

[QldPilotGuy]

Umm Virgin "propping up" Tiger ? What exactly is your source ? Did you read and examine the Half Yearly results ?
Tiger actually had the highest load factors on flights in the Virgin Group and with one of the lowest cost bases in Australia it is the profitable part of the group.
It's actually Virgin that is pulling down Tiger, Virgin posted a loss and in response they made almost no changes to the Virgin network but instead culled Tiger which will help their books look better in the short term.
If Virgin think that getting rid of half of Tiger will mean Tiger passengers will fly Virgin they are incredibly misguided, they have literally just handed Jetstar a Golden Egg.

[Green.Dot]

There was a time around 2015-2016 where Tiger was really gaining momentum. OTP was close to 90% (smashing Jetstar) and that was the same year they turned a modest profit. Staff morale and optimism for the 14 x 320 operation was quite high and VA told the ACCC when they bought TT in 2014 that they would expand to 35 aircraft by 2018. It was the “go-to” job for a lot of pilots. Then it all literally came crashing down following the July 2016 announcement by genius JB that they were going to complete a fleet transition to 737 by mid 2019.

Bali flying- fail. 737 fleet transfer- fail. Training costs- fail. Promised growth of aircraft- fail. Staff morale- fail. Staff retention- fail. OTP- fail. Reduction in aircraft and staff- tick!

Anyway, the past can’t be changed. Point is Tiger CAN make money. The Tiger brand CAN recover- people still buy cheap airfares, ask the people who fly Air Asia if they care about reputation.

VA SHOULD be investing in Tiger or whatever they rebrand as if they go down that path. As the previous poster said JQ/Qantas group have been handed another golden egg. VA should largely forget about JBs widebody pissing contest with Qantas and do what they do best. That is fly narrow bodies and make money!

Best wishes to all the Tiger and Virgin staff, you deserve better than the crap JB set up for you... where is he? Maybe enjoying the Italian sunshine with an Order of Australia medal around his neck? 🤬

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.smh.com.au/business/companies/how-tigerair-once-australias-worst-airline-has-turned-itself-around-20160805-gqlk8h.html

[-41]

Umm Virgin "propping up" Tiger ? What exactly is your source ? Did you read and examine the Half Yearly results ?
Tiger actually had the highest load factors on flights in the Virgin Group and with one of the lowest cost bases in Australia it is the profitable part of the group.
It's actually Virgin that is pulling down Tiger, Virgin posted a loss and in response they made almost no changes to the Virgin network but instead culled Tiger which will help their books look better in the short term.
If Virgin think that getting rid of half of Tiger will mean Tiger passengers will fly Virgin they are incredibly misguided, they have literally just handed Jetstar a Golden Egg.

Virgin paid $1 for TT, then invested millions in a loss making business.

Not so Sure VA is “pulling down” Tiger , to the outside observer it appears they merely delayed the inevitable.

[No Idea Either]

That’s right -41, $1 dollar and I believe they also took on all the debt, somewhere around $180 million IIRC.
Nice to have had a clean slate but alas I fear it’s been to no avail.

[porch monkey]

QPG, Wtf are you smoking?

[PPRuNeUser0198]

Dear me QPH. You must be joking? TT has mostly been a 'loss leader. It has only made a profit a couple of times. It has lost more than it has made. It is a loss-maker at nett. For FY19 it was negative EBITDAR. It was essentially bankrupt. It is able to operate because of VA. Be assured - TT is not 'propping up' VA. VA domestic is a cash cow. It is what keeps the VA group functioning as an airline. TT financials have improved now mostly due to reducing cost through less aircraft and obliterated head office labour force. This naturally will increase unit revenue and yield, as they've announced. Also understand that the 'first half' is the 'good half'. The second half is where everything gets very ugly. Being handed clapped out (and paid down) B737's will dramatically reduce the cost base for TT as the lease expense for the 320's exits, and there will be for sure - synergies for maintenance, systems etc...

And you have to look at cashflow. Don't get caught up in 'underlying' and 'statutory' profits so much. Free cash is king!

[turbantime]

How does one garner cashflow stats from the asx release? Serious question.

[Colonel_Klink]

Umm Virgin "propping up" Tiger ? What exactly is your source ? Did you read and examine the Half Yearly results ?
Tiger actually had the highest load factors on flights in the Virgin Group and with one of the lowest cost bases in Australia it is the profitable part of the group.
It's actually Virgin that is pulling down Tiger, Virgin posted a loss and in response they made almost no changes to the Virgin network but instead culled Tiger which will help their books look better in the short term.
If Virgin think that getting rid of half of Tiger will mean Tiger passengers will fly Virgin they are incredibly misguided, they have literally just handed Jetstar a Golden Egg.

One of the more simple things I’ve read here - and you’ve highlighted very clearly how some pilots simply do not understand the fundamentals of running an airline.

Hint: High load factors doesn’t mean the flight is making money. It’s based on yield. If a TT aircraft departs full and everyone paid $50 for a ticket - it’s unlikely the flight is making money. It’s also why a half full 737 at VA with 4 full fare J class pax might be making money. Given the very low yield of TT flights, they have to have a high load factor (probably higher than where it is at the moment).

Ultimately though it’s Tiger’s cost base that has killed it. The place was really going to struggle as soon as the fleet replacement was delayed for a silly amount of time.To me the fleet replacement made perfect sense at the time it was announced, given economies of scale with VA etc - it was just the implementation that was a complete basket case (not helped of course with the Max issues).

It caught me by surprise though that TT aren’t getting more 73s from NZ - I thought they may have got 5 or so aircraft from there given the bloodbath on the Tasman after the split with ANZ.

Make no mistake - I feel for all the TT pilots given the uncertainty they face, none of which they had any control over. The VA group certainly isn’t a great place to be working at the moment

[PPRuNeUser0198]

How does one garner cashflow stats from the asx release? Serious question.

Statement of Cashflows @ https://www.virginaustralia.com/cs/groups/internetcontent/@wc/documents/webcontent/~edisp/fy20-h1-interim-report.pdf

[coaldemon]

A transition to a new type when there were A320's on lease with no exit strategy wasn't the best idea. The concept of buying B737's new and transitioning them through the Business Units at set intervals say 12 years to Tiger and then 18 years to VARA would have made sense if executed correctly. It doesn't seem that was the case.

[coaldemon]

And that cashflow statement for the first 6 months is not good reading either

[PPRuNeUser0198]

Debt is a killer. Their leverage is alarming at 6.4x.

[turbantime]

And that cashflow statement for the first 6 months is not good reading either

That’s because 711 million of that cash was used to buy back velocity at an inflated price.

[VH-ABC]

Maybe Airbus is helping out with that problem.

[coaldemon]

Nothing to do with Airbus they sold the frames to whichever Lessor it was that took on the risk. They will not take over the leases unless they are making a huge markup on the replacements. Also for simplicity if you raise around $1 Billion AUD in the Oz and US markets then spend $700 Mil on Velocity and end up with less cash in the bank after 6 months then there is an issue. I think that is why the CEO was dealing with the Investors today. They may be a bit worried as their bonds lose value in the current market.

[burned_out]

I think this should start the meme piss take... ok... I'll light the fuse!


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x795/tigerair1_18418578a0541496e21154215fee7b947505ca28.jpg
VA and TT Management

[machtuk]

The road to the cliff face Tigers are now facing started when the geniuses walking into to a pilot meeting & said we are going to change the fleet to B737 & everyone will have to train up on type within 18 months, 3 year bond $45K, that was yeas ago now, thank you!! From that day on the die was cast & it's been a clustetfcku ever since!

RIP Tigers, you had the potential just not the leadership!

[2dotsright]

I think this should start the meme piss take... ok... I'll light the fuse!


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x795/tigerair1_18418578a0541496e21154215fee7b947505ca28.jpg
VA and TT Management
Great post, SOOOOOO TRUE...Ya won't get much response from the 737 guys (and Gals), most are VERY junior in the company and have never seen any crap in their short careers,,,,which are about to become much shorter. If Seniority is respected then there are about 25 or more 73 Captains who'll be kissing those 4 bars goodbye...Anyway, this is all overshadowed by the calamity happening. If QF is cutting 60% of their domestic fleet then Virgin will go at least as much so the piddling little Tiger hanging there like a dag on the sheets bum is Gonesky.... sorry, but true

[2dotsright]

Great post, SOOOOOO TRUE...Ya won't get much response from the 737 guys (and Gals), most are VERY junior in the company and have never seen any crap in their short careers,,,,which are about to become much shorter. If Seniority is respected then there are about 25 or more 73 Captains who'll be kissing those 4 bars goodbye...Anyway, this is all overshadowed by the calamity happening. If QF is cutting 60% of their domestic fleet then Virgin will go at least as much so the piddling little Tiger hanging there like a dag on the sheeps bum is Gonesky.... sorry, but true

[PoppaJo]

Well...if it’s Last in, First out, they will need to borrow Pilots from Virgin to keep the operation running, as the 737 is largely crewed by the back half of the list.

I assume they will expedite this whole process now essentially with the Airbus ending service sooner rather than later, well rather than sitting around idle for the next few months.

The downtime can be used type training Airbus Pilots so come August they are all set to go.

Are there any VARA opps for these 737 or Airbus guys?

[PoppaJo]

If I had stayed, and joined in 2005 in Singapore, I would have stayed on the Airbus, so after 15 years I get the boot? All the young FOs joined on temp contracts a few years back get to stay and play? Pretty bad.

Scooter might be interested guys.

[SpyderPig]

.

Are there any VARA opps for these 737 or Airbus guys?

Vara has its own issues with 3 F100s been parked and being over crewed, with many taking part time and spending AL and long service they’re still a couple heavy in both seats. With FNP about to leave the fleet it’ll be back to 5 320s which are already crewed.

I hate to say it but when Vara had too many pilots 6 months ago it was “Sorry, entry level positions only” available to them. So that’s 777 SO, ATR FO and VANZ 73 FO. The unions were the ones who dug their heels in on freeze waivers and movement to the 737 etc so I doubt they’ll fling the doors open to displace any of the existing VARA guys and girls. I’m told 3 FOs took the VANZ option, they must be really feeling the heat now.

This was told to me at a party two weeks ago by a vara 100 FO but make of it what you want.

[Colonel_Klink]

This is a genuinely rubbish situation to be in - and the TT guys have my complete sympathy. As does any pilot worried about where the next pay cheque is coming from.

Given the clear directive from the Company to stop the outflow of cash at the moment - I think the Company will fight tooth and nail to not replace the current 737 guys. From a business perspective and a financial perspective, it makes absolutely no sense for them to train a 320 crew on to the 737 to then make a 737 crew redundant.

It would not be outside the realms of possibility for the Company to come out and say that if they are forced down that route, then the whole operation is not viable.

[burned_out]

Crazy announcement today guys, but the writing was on the wall!!
My condolences to all, including VA guys (the less venomous ones).

So VA guys will be pooled into one AOC and operate the same aircraft (Virgin and Tigerair 737's)..... given Stuart Aggs update, there will be enough pilots to operate both smaller fleets for the foreseeable future, including the "recovery". In other words, only the senior guys in VA will have jobs and so no chance of any Tigerair pilot dreamer to get in on any pilot group vacancy given the large numbers in front of them on the group seniority list..... Sorry TT and VANZ, take the Redundancy and best of luck for the future!!

Oh the **** show that is..... onwards and upwards..... to the Centerlink holding point!

[drunk_pilot]

Crazy announcement today guys, but the writing was on the wall!!
My condolences to all, including VA guys (the less venomous ones).

So VA guys will be pooled into one AOC and operate the same aircraft (Virgin and Tigerair 737's)..... given Stuart Aggs update, there will be enough pilots to operate both smaller fleets for the foreseeable future, including the "recovery". In other words, only the senior guys in VA will have jobs and so no chance of any Tigerair pilot dreamer to get in on any pilot group vacancy given the large numbers in front of them on the group seniority list..... Sorry TT and VANZ, take the Redundancy and best of luck for the future!!

Oh the **** show that is..... onwards and upwards..... to the Centerlink holding point!

I might have “got the arse” as you so eloquently put it, but I’m still willing to bet I’d rather be me having got the Arse, than be a complete toss pot like you.

Side note, I sincerely wish all my colleagues the best for the future. Flying isn’t everything, try to keep your health and spend time with your loved ones. It’s an absolute $hit sandwich, but nobody is alone in it. Be honest to yourself and share your thoughts and feeling with a good mate or family. Don’t carry the burden alone.

[Led Zeppelin]

DP - good luck to you mate. It's a very sad time all round

[normanton]

If you think a company will follow seniority in the current climate you will be severely mistaken.

The company will claim the training costs are not feasible. It will get nasty and go to FWA, and they will agree with the company.

Last in, first off, will not work. It will send the company broke.

[burned_out]

I might have “got the arse” as you so eloquently put it, but I’m still willing to bet I’d rather be me having got the Arse, than be a complete toss pot like you.



So you resort to abuse ? Why? I never quoted "getting the arse" so the only "toss pot" is you being clearly emotional (and you should be, especially if you didnt see it coming; not sure why you didnt).

Like I said, best of luck to All including VA guys .... the less venomous ones

[das Uber Soldat]

So you resort to abuse ? Why? I never quoted "getting the arse" so the only "toss pot" is you being clearly emotional (and you should be, especially if you didnt see it coming; not sure why you didnt).

Like I said, best of luck to All including VA guys .... the less venomous ones
You really think comments like "you should have seen it coming" are useful in a horrible time such as this? Are you on the spectrum or just incredibly rude?

Far out.

[Dookie on Drums]

You really think comments like "you should have seen it coming" are useful in a horrible time such as this? Are you on the spectrum or just incredibly rude?

Far out.

Probably not but who makes you the Messiah? The fact is the writing was on the wall for a very long time. As humans, we prefer to bury our heads in the sand and hope for the best. What use is your comment really?

[PoppaJo]

Look I saw the writing on the wall in 2008, 9,10,11. I got nervous 6 months from the get go. I started asking for my job back in Singapore in 2009.

I even remember a previous ruthless Singapore exec who flew down to close it. Saving face was worth more to the higher ups way up in Singapore so he didn’t get his way and got the boot.

It should have really been removed a decade ago. Well everyone pissed off to Strategic anyway.

[machtuk]

Sadly this was the writing in the wall for the last 4 years, it was only a matter of time before the last straw (virus) broke the Tigers back!
I hope that the guys/gals find peace one day -)

[Green.Dot]

Good luck everyone, another sad day in the wonderful world of aviation. A great place to work with a can do attitude amongst the staff let down by atrocious management

[Icarus2001]

Thoughts with everyone who has been stood down but particularly the Tiger boys and girls. I understand end of April for end so service.

So if VA plan to run Tiger with mainline VA 737 pilots what do they do with the A320s? Send them back? Hand them to VARA?

Or is it going to be a moot point very soon, sad to say?

[wheels_down]

Redundancy appears to be pushed forward to next Friday for all 220 Pilots.