Learning to fly in a 500

[tartare]

Have always liked the 500D and E from when I were a nipper.
Considerable costs of starting straight on a turbine machine aside - purely from a handling point of view - how easy would it be for a moderately experienced fixed wing pilot (light aircraft PPL only) to learn to fly rotary wing on the 500?
(Yep - I know the plank experience counts for nowt airmanship wise when you swap a yoke for a cyclic)
I understand it's considered the sports car of the light turbine world - not long legged and you're always looking for fuel - but highly manoeuvrable and extremely responsive.
Possible, or would it simply be too much of a handful - would a 206 be more benign?
Have fooled around in a Robbie once, but that's about it.

[nigelh]

If it's what you want to end up with then it's perfect to learn in . No point at all in learning on a Robbie and then converting !

[havick]

Have always liked the 500D and E from when I were a nipper.
Considerable costs of starting straight on a turbine machine aside - purely from a handling point of view - how easy would it be for a moderately experienced fixed wing pilot (light aircraft PPL only) to learn to fly rotary wing on the 500?
(Yep - I know the plank experience counts for nowt airmanship wise when you swap a yoke for a cyclic)
I understand it's considered the sports car of the light turbine world - not long legged and you're always looking for fuel - but highly manoeuvrable and extremely responsive.
Possible, or would it simply be too much of a handful - would a 206 be more benign?
Have fooled around in a Robbie once, but that's about it.

Costs aside it Shouldn't really make a difference at all to be honest, learn in whatever type you wish.

There are some training advantages of learning in something that doesn't have a throttle governor (e.g. H269), but still isn't really a big deal at all to learn manual throttle manipulation in any type you decide to learn in.

Good luck with your training.

[SASless]

Perhaps the Jet Ranger might be a bit easier to learn in....as some of the 500's attributes that makes it so much fun to fly make it a bit harder to master if new.

That being said....going to a Jet Ranger after flying the 500 is so boring!

The major difference is in the 500 you fly the machine using cyclic trim operated by your Thumb.....as the Jet Ranger has a standard cyclic system.

[fadecdegraded]

You will find it harder to transition from a 500 to another type if that's what you plan to do later on i.e. Into a 206 or 350. And as already mentioned will be a big change if you want to fly a piston especially without a governer.
If that's what you are going to stay with won't matter.

[rotorfan]

Our local police operate 500Es. They take patrol officers and train them from zero-time. Recently, one of their officers who is a FW private and Mooney owner, passed his RW rating. So, it is feasible, especially if that is what you'll continue to fly. (Ultimately, their pilots earn a Comm with IR, all done in-house.)

[paco]

Check to see if you need special permission to train in a four-seater. Otherwise, enjoy!

Phil

[megan]

Check to see if you need special permission to train in a four-seaterGenuine question paco, what has the number of seats got to do with its use for training? New one on me.

[Hughes500]

Megan
The four seater is to do with EASA law and registered facilities teaching ab initio !
As to learning to fly on a 500, some thoughts

1. Expensive, about twice that of learning on a 300 for instance
2. You will be a better pilot learning in a piston.
3. Probably quicker to do it in a 300 then convert
4. It is reasonably long legged, holds 310 litres of jet ( with normal tank plus fargo ) so that is about 2 hours 45 mins at 130 kt cruise, so will go further than your 206 !

Can basically teach anyone to fly one given enough time and money, after all most of those ex mil pilots on here will have learnt on a gazelle which is basically a French version of a 500 in what it was designed to do.
I would be happy to teach you in one ( I have a few of them )

[Bell_ringer]

The basic principle of power management is not as easily learned in a high(er) powered turbine which will save your backside while you continue on blissfully unaware it's not your talent defying gravity.
Learning, or at least spending a few hours on a piston, will make you a better pilot, embedding a respect for limited power you won't get going straight to a turbine.
Once done, run away and don't look back :E

[megan]

The four seater is to do with EASA law and registered facilities teaching ab initioThanks Hughes, curious as to the reason/logic.

[ShyTorque]

Can basically teach anyone to fly one given enough time and money, after all most of those ex mil pilots on here will have learnt on a gazelle which is basically a French version of a 500 in what it was designed to do.

Gazelle indeed! Some of us pre-date the type, too.

The Whirlwind was arguably a better training aircraft, despite its much larger size.

[Hughes500]

Shy

My humble apologies I am a mere 53 so think i am comping to the end of ones commercial life !!!

[ShyTorque]

53? They're sending us boys to do the job these days, I tell you! ;)

[SASless]

I passed an employment /FAR 135 Checkride in Alaska on the 500D to include slingloads, EOL's, Snow Landingsand mountain landings at 10, 000 feet.....without removing the Frictions....and when asked why not....had to ask "Frictions?".

Immediately rumbled at having never flown the 500!

Worked there three years on 500's and Cessna 206's.

Some piston engine time twisting a throttle is not a bad thing....as very few Helicopter Pilots ever fully understand the effects and control of rotor system torque.

[Hughes500]

Shy
now now

[rotarywise]

Check to see if you need special permission to train in a four-seater.What, like an R44 for example?Gazelle indeed! Some of us pre-date the type, too. Only until the QHI course (just)
The Whirlwind was arguably a better training aircraft, despite its much larger size.If you're talking about the piston-engined version then I agree, but only if prefaced by a few hours in a Hiller to sort out the throttle twisting.

[Cyclic Hotline]

Er, surely the 500 is actually a 5 seater?:eek:

[Old Farang]

Well, just my 10 cents worth: if you learn to master a twitchy Robinson, then ALL else in the future will be a walk in the park. I learnt on a pre-tip weighted blade machine when engine governors were just a glint in Franks eye.

Followed by a Hiller 12E that developed left arm muscles that Popeye would have been envious of!

Good luck whatever you choose. :cool:

[tartare]

Sheesh - you fly it using the coolie hat on top of the cyclic?!
Makes me admire the thing even more...

[ShyTorque]

If you're talking about the piston-engined version then I agree, but only if prefaced by a few hours in a Hiller to sort out the throttle twisting.

Perhaps you forgot that the later turbine engined versions had a manual engine reversion mode so that the pilot was required to operate the "throttle" too. Students had to learn to fly with the turbine in manual throttle, which requires more skill and anticipation than than for a piston engine because of the greater lag in response. Certain QHIs had the habit of freezing the computer just as you thought you were doing quite well....

[ericferret]

Cyclic Hotlone

500's come in four or five seats. For training it has to be four seats. Some 500's were built as 4 and flown from the right. You have to remove the centre seat to install duals on one built to be flown from the left.

[rudestuff]

Believe it or not there was a 3+4 version...

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

I once did a guys full ppl in a 500 ! the only issue I remember having was the auto's, it goes up just as fast as it comes down so you never get a break to relax

[Hughes500]

Big argument over the 500 for training with EASA/ CAA over the years !

1. It is a turbine and so need special permission
2. Arguments being a 5 seater, it is actually a 4 seater as the duals take up the 5th person seat. Originally CAA wanted nothing to do with it until Ron Jenkins at Gatwick established some order !
Probably the most fun helicopter to fly along with a 341. Biggest problem most find is the excessive pedal inputs . It is shorter than a 300 but has an engine with twice the power so has a powerful tail rotor but on a short lever arm, hence the pedal inputs. See crash on River Thames 2 weeks ago !

[megan]

Probably the most fun helicopter to fly along with a 341Not flown either, but always thought the Scout was good sport in the handling department, coupled with the most outstanding rock solid governor I've come across.

The 500 in it's OH-6 guise impressed. Made a single ship Huey extraction with a -6 on each side brassing up the LZ with mini gun as I came out. Swear to God they were still in formation during the 60 knot climb, going backwards, and still firing.

[SASless]

You lead with the Trim or you wind up with a right Arm that Charles Atlas would envy!

Trimming removes Stick Forces....which can be rather heavy.

A Run-Away Trim gets very interesting!




Sheesh - you fly it using the coolie hat on top of the cyclic?!
Makes me admire the thing even more...

[newfieboy]

Had a runaway trim on a Notar coming off a drill pad. Lateral trim so a/c went hard left at low level......:sad: You soon learn to memorize trim breaker. Loved the E and D models, had a soft spot for the Notar but not as much fun....:ok:

[Hughes500]

SAS

Charles Atlas, now you are showing your age !!

[SASless]

.....and darn glad to be able to do so!


SAS

Charles Atlas, now you are showing your age !!

[Hughes500]

Old but not Bold !!!!!

[sycamore]

Tartare, personally I would try to learn on a piston-engined helo as a starter at the bottom of the helo `ladder` ,to later turbine powered ones.Whilst you have FW experience,I would `suggest`that if you start a helo course,then minimise your FW stuff during the course,as you are/will be in a whole new ballgame.Your basic airmanship should be fine as regards R/T circuits,nav,but it will improve immeasurably flying a helo; your lookout will be sharper,you will see trees,fields,power-lines,assessment of wind ,drift,balance,learn smoothness of handling; your ears have to become attuned to the Rotor RPM above all else,for RRPM now becomes your #1 priority; too much and the blades may fly off,too little and they will `clap hands` before you can utter `fookinell`. You may well come back from a training sortie and sit in the corner of the coffee bar and slurp it out of the cup,as your hands are shaking so much; you may also be found wandering around ,talking to yourself about innane things,and people may give you a wide berth,because they don`t understand RRPM,inflow roll,translational lift,vortex-ring,pitch-lag instability, ground-resonance,etc,etc. And then the darkness will be cast from your eyes,one day,when you can hover over one spot on the airfield,do spot turns around the rotor,tail-rotor and the nose,translate sideways,backwards,and anywhere between,pull off an EOL.......
You`ll find it frustrating,maybe tiring,but truly enjoyable and almost the best fun with your trousers on....and you`ll be hooked for life..!! Go for it......

[tartare]

Thanks fellas - really appreciate the advice.
I was the nerdy kiwi kid who called the local Hughes dealer in the late 70's at age 8 - trying to understand how a swashplate worked.
He mailed me the multi-page spiral bound D-model marketing booklet that Hughes sent out back in the day - complete with cutaways and accompanied by the glossy brochure on colour schemes.
Within a few days I'd customised the meanest, high geared, full avionics specc'ed, Magnum PI'd coloured beast.
And once I saw the real thing swooping in to land at a local airshow, sounding like a big angry bumblebee and smelling of Jet A1 - I was hooked.
I'll let you know how I get on...

[dieseldo]

I remember those brochures well, I think I may still have one. The colour schemes were certainly eye catching.

When I got a job maintaining 500's I was told by people at the company I was leaving that I was making a big mistake as they were a nightmare to work on. First day on the new job I remember being startled by how small they appeared to be.

I was lucky to be working for someone who new them really well and I soon learnt that they were actually a great aircraft to work on with only a couple of jobs (fwd undercarriage damper change, engine tacho change insitu!!!) that were a pain.
Hard to choose my personal favourite between the 500 and the Gazelle but I think the 500 gets it for simplicity.

I remember talking to one owner who had previously operated a 206. He said " when I had the 206 every bill came with four digits, with the 500 I get some bills with only three".

[Bladestrike]

Albiet over 30 years ago, I did my 100 hour commercial initial on a wood bladed 47, but they had a 206 doing some stuff and asked if I wanted some turbine time, so I flew that a few hours, then back on the 47, and then they had a 500C and I flew a few hours on that. At that stage they are all just helicopters and to me it didn't matter, I quite liked switching it up. That being said I LOVED the 500! Images of TC buzzing around Maui......

You will have no issues learning on a 500. If thats the helo that floats your boat, go for it! Don't overthink it, enjoy!

[tottigol]

I learnt to drive in this 500D.
http://www.classic-chrome.net/upload/Photos/201410231007461490050466_fiat500dlivio048optimized.jpg

[SASless]

Blade strike and others say it right....enjoy it!

[Hughes500]

Totti

well at least you had a bit of money in our pocket after learning !
Actually the 2 vehicles about the same size !!!!

[tartare]

...and what a beautiful 500 that is; immaculate.

[havick]

Thanks fellas - really appreciate the advice.
I was the nerdy kiwi kid who called the local Hughes dealer in the late 70's at age 8 - trying to understand how a swashplate worked.
He mailed me the multi-page spiral bound D-model marketing booklet that Hughes sent out back in the day - complete with cutaways and accompanied by the glossy brochure on colour schemes.
Within a few days I'd customised the meanest, high geared, full avionics specc'ed, Magnum PI'd coloured beast.
And once I saw the real thing swooping in to land at a local airshow, sounding like a big angry bumblebee and smelling of Jet A1 - I was hooked.
I'll let you know how I get on...

Most importantly have fun!

[Flying Binghi]

I learnt to drive in this 500D.
http://www.classic-chrome.net/upload/Photos/201410231007461490050466_fiat500dlivio048optimized.jpg

I were following one in the rain one day - it did an 'interesting' autorotation in front of me..:)

And re the thread, do the learning in a 300 if possible. Less reserves of power to play with so thinking about the 'lift' requirements of exit before the entry becomes more of an ingrained memory..:cool:





.