Military Hours into Civvie World

[safetwin]

Hi all,

Does anyone have any advice on the slickest way of logging and switching military hours into civvie speak? Is it most common to use an e-logbook now and can we still add 10 mins to each FW sortie for taxi time?

Yours aye, ST

[Mogwi]

Hi all,

Does anyone have any advice on the slickest way of logging and switching military hours into civvie speak? Is it most common to use an e-logbook now and can we still add 10 mins to each FW sortie for taxi time?

Yours aye, ST

The accepted formula when I departed the fix was 10 mins per sortie except for wheeled helos and displays, they were 5 mins. Multis accrued 15 mins but skidded helos and embarked ops got nowt.

Mind you, that was '94 and the minutes were probably longer then!

[VinRouge]

Depends upon what you are using the hours for and whether you are flying a heavy, light a d whether it's prop or blow job.

Google caa LASORS replacement. I think if it's not in LASORS, It's in the replacement cap.

[Lima Juliet]

CAP804 Part O is your friend: CAP 804: Flight Crew Licensing (http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?appid=11&mode=detail&id=6412) and SRG2133 SRG2133: Confirmation of Military Experience for Military Experience for Military Accreditation Scheme (MAS) Credits in Accordance with Article 10 of Commission Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 (http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?appid=11&mode=detail&id=5133)

Of note it says not to add taxy time under section 5. :ok:

[BEagle]

1. There is NO 'formula' for converting military-logged flight time these days.

2. As I've told people repeatedly - KEEP 2 LOGBOOKS!! One being your military log book, in which military flying is recorded in accordance with military practice. The other being a civil logbook, in which ALL flying is logged chock-to-chock, in accordance with civil practice.

3. Don't listen to people who quote previous methodology - times have changed, unfortunately.

4. CAP804 was cancelled on 24 Aug 2016. It is being re-written, but there is no indication of any release date. Neither is there likely to be any change in the pitiful state of military accreditation, thanks to that pair of numpties in 22 Straining Group who failed to bring the previous hard-won JAR-FCL accreditation into the Part-FCL era...:mad:

[Lima Juliet]

Beags

CAP804 is for "reference only" until the new ANO is put into it. This is what the CAA currently say:

Description:CAP 804 covered UK requirements for pilot licensing and a guide to the new European Flight Crew Licensing requirements to April 2015. This edition remains available for reference only.

A new and restructured Air Navigation Order came into force on 25 August 2016. Article references have completely changed and new EASA regulations have been developed since CAP 804 was last issued. In the light of these significant changes the need for a restructured and updated version of CAP 804 that reflects current UK law and EU regulations is currently being reviewed.

If it is "for reference only" it is not entirely cancelled.

Best

LJ

PS the SRG2133 is up to date...

[BEagle]

LJ, dealing as I do with licence queries on almost a daily basis, I'm fully aware of the current state of affairs.

Although I was instrumental in achieving the previous military accreditation system, it will need someone with sufficient dedication and regulatory knowledge to challenge and improve the poor system you have today.

When I attended a CAA/EASA meeting some years ago at Gatwick, EASA assured the audience that "You are the experts - it's up to you" when I asked whether the extant military accreditation system would continue under the Aircrew Regulation. But it was up to MoD to write the appropriate proposal, as the (then) Head of Licensing told me, "We'll endorse whatever MoD decides - but don't ask us to do the work to write any proposal".

That was after I left the RAF. The rest is, sadly, history.

Incidentally, the RAF would have lost EFT accreditation towards the Part-FCL Aerobatic Rating if I hadn't pointed out to the CAA that the input from the alleged military expert was nonsense as it hadn't given any credit for items such as advanced stalling, spinning, recoveries from the vertical etc.

Why the RAF always shoots itself in the foot when applying for civil accreditation is frankly beyond me....:ugh:

[Lima Juliet]

LJ, dealing as I do with licence queries on almost a daily basis, I'm fully aware of the current state of affairs.

Absolutely me old fruit, it's just that your chosen words could be misinterpreted as CAP804 is not worth a read. :ok:

Best

LJ

[BEagle]

LJ - blond genug!

.....

[The B Word]

I've always thought that we also miss a trick the other way around as well. Why does a PPL holder have to do a full EFT and an ATPL or f/ATPL holder have to do everything including MELIN/ME courses? Surely, we could do better than that? Wasn't there a VC10 Nav with f/ATPL that was trialled in the right hand seat for an OCU? I always heard that it had gone quite well?

The B Word :confused:

[whirly_bird_boy]

Folks, pretty clear from the info above, thank you. I am wondering though; I have a load of Grob Tutor hours in my RAF logbook, which is a civilian registered aircraft (G-BY**). I had planned to transpose these hours into a civie logbook, adding 10 mins per sortie. Thoughts please? Thanks

[kenparry]

Folks, pretty clear from the info above, thank you. I am wondering though; I have a load of Grob Tutor hours in my RAF logbook, which is a civilian registered aircraft (G-BY**). I had planned to transpose these hours into a civie logbook, adding 10 mins per sortie. Thoughts please? Thanks

The clear answer is above, from Beagle at post #5

[Fareastdriver]

Looking at the requirements for an EASA ALTP(A) and ALTP(H) I cannot see how an RAF pilot with a reasonable time of service that repays his training costs can fail to meet the criteria.

[whirly_bird_boy]

The clear answer is above, from Beagle at post #5

Thanks Ken, but I'm not sure it is. The point I'm making is that although I wear RAF uniform while the flying the Tutor, surely I can put it in a civie logbook since it's a civilian registered aircraft? To my knowledge, it's the only example of this setup in the RAF. Thanks

[teeteringhead]

Why the RAF always shoots itself in the foot when applying for civil accreditation is frankly beyond me... Can't imagine why the RAF would not want to ease the path to civilian licences.......

Oh........ hang on ........

[BEagle]

Can't imagine why the RAF would not want to ease the path to civilian licences.......

Because it was originally a recruiting and retention incentive!

Recruiting - get a qualification which, should you so wish, you can later use in civilian life.

Retention - you won't get significant credit unless you stay in the Service for a reasonable length of time (it used to be 2000 hrs TT, 1500 PIC of which 500 could be PIC U/S).

Whereas now there's no significant accreditation, so the RAF is back to the days of people doing CPL work during their first tour, then jumping ship as soon as they can....:rolleyes:

In addition, there's so little solo time during flying training for ME aircraft that it wasn't all that long ago that experienced TriStar co-pilots were having to build their PIC time at the Brize Flying Club on PA-28s, so that they met the 70 hr minimum needed for a CPL....:\

[cessnapete]

Because it was originally a recruiting and retention incentive!

Recruiting - get a qualification which, should you so wish, you can later use in civilian life.

Retention - you won't get significant credit unless you stay in the Service for a reasonable length of time (it used to be 2000 hrs TT, 1500 PIC of which 500 could be PIC U/S).

Whereas now there's no significant accreditation, so the RAF is back to the days of people doing CPL work during their first tour, then jumping ship as soon as they can....:rolleyes:

In addition, there's so little solo time during flying training for ME aircraft that it wasn't all that long ago that experienced TriStar co-pilots were having to build their PIC time at the Brize Flying Club on PA-28s, so that they met the 70 hr minimum needed for a CPL....:\

A relative of mine got their Tristar Command with a total of 90 hours actual P1!
EFT/UAS Grob and a bit of mutual without instructor in the King Air. (All the RAF aircraft flown P1 were joint RAF/Civil G Reg. Grob/King Air. So the times in 2nd. civil log book (As per Beagle advice) all times recorded chock to chock as the Civil normal, and all were accepted by the CAA when applying for the ALTP)
An ALTP courtesy of the Voyager Conversion followed , and straight on to an A380 in civvy land.

[teeteringhead]

In addition, there's so little solo time during flying training for ME aircraft that it wasn't all that long ago that experienced TriStar co-pilots were having to build their PIC time at the Brize Flying Club on PA-28s, so that they met the 70 hr minimum needed for a CPL.... o tempora o mores!

I had no idea BEags - I know that "that was then and this is now" but I see from logbook Vol 1 that I had 55 hrs PIC when I got my Wings and a total of 95 when I arrived on my first Sqn........

[BEagle]

Hmmm...

At the end of Basic Flying Training, when I qualified for my Wings I had 265 hours military flight time, of which 92 was as PIC - admittedly 138 of the 265 were at the UAS, as were 55 of the 92.

Plus another 14 PIC and 21 Dual on my Flying Scholarship...:ok:

[tmmorris]

I think BEagle's post is clear enough. If you keep two logbooks, fine. But there's no accepted conversion method.

Just check: you are qualified to fly the Tutor? i.e. You have at least a PPL and variable pitch sign off in your civilian logbook?

[GipsyMagpie]

Thanks Ken, but I'm not sure it is. The point I'm making is that although I wear RAF uniform while the flying the Tutor, surely I can put it in a civie logbook since it's a civilian registered aircraft? To my knowledge, it's the only example of this setup in the RAF. Thanks

Not the only example actually - occasional use of civil registered aircraft at Boscombe too.

Of note, flying civil registered aircraft in the military is covered in regulations but not the one you might think. The military regulations do not apply to this type of flying but rather it's all regulated by the UK Air Navigation Order. There is an allowance in the (Article 249?) that military pilots may fly civil registered aircraft in the course of their duties without a civil licence - clearly the military will need you to have the right qual though. The MAA helpfully will soon push out a regulation which highlights which MRP rules then apply to that pilot (which includes pilot quals, medicals, instrument ratings,instructor quals). What the list did not include was RA2401 which has the rules for recording of flight times.

So if you kept up with that regulatory knot, you will realise that when a military pilot flies a civil aircraft he should record his flying time in accordance with civil rules not the military ones. Other issues include carriage of passengers, rules of the air, applicability of MATZ.

So if you are a Tutor pilot, do you really know what rules you're flying to? But at least you can justify recording chock to chock in your logbook (the civil one - Beags had good advice there)

[NotInTheNavy]

Greetings all, I've been looking into the 'new' logging of hours under EASA and can't find a solid answer. Before I contact the CAA (and wait 6 weeks to be told that it is 'in the EASA Air Ops' - which it isn't) I thought I'd seek wisdom (!!) here.

I did my ATPL(A) while flying in the military. Then when I left I 'converted' my hours iaw LASORS 2010, and went overseas. From then on logged chocks off to chocks on as per the normal. Now I'm back in Europe and have a nice new EASA-compliant logbook, but I don't know how to transfer my hours!

Sounds stupid, but the columns for ME used to be P1 / P2 / Dual and a separate column for Captain/Aircraft Commander. The EASA logbook (and regs) now have PIC / Co-Pilot / Dual (except SE of course). Before looking I just transferred the hours, but that means all of my P1 hours are now in the PIC column, which can't be right! How am I supposed to log all my previous P1 (non-Capt) hours? Do I have to go back and work out all the hours I was P1 (non-Capt) and put those in the Co-Pilot column? That would not be fun (and I doubt that is what people are doing...).

Incidentally because I'm doing LT as a Captain it does say I can log them as PIC, as long as my LTI signs my logbook (something he had never heard of before, but is stated in part-FCL). I know lots of civvies who just carried on using their military logbooks, but surely now they aren't EASA-compliant...?

Does it matter? Is it legal? I know you can be fined for an incorrect log but I've never heard of it happening. Wouldn't be a bad thing to see occasionally though, as I have seen MANY people 'rounding up' their hours and no one ever checked. Also, according to EASA it appears you can log all IFR hours now (whether or not the AP is in!). No wonder my previous colleagues had thousands more hours 'IF' than me, despite a lot less total. I still only log hours IMC manual flying (Act) or VMC instruments only (Sim).

I've been looking at this for months now, so any response is appreciated! NITN:cool:

[parabellum]

The point I'm making is that although I wear RAF uniform while the flying the Tutor, surely I can put it in a civie logbook since it's a civilian registered aircraft? To my knowledge, it's the only example of this setup in the RAF. Thanks


If you are flying a civil registered aircraft for hire and reward I think you will find that you are legally obliged to keep a civilian log book, it isn't a matter of choice?

[GipsyMagpie]

If you are flying a civil registered aircraft for hire and reward I think you will find that you are legally obliged to keep a civilian log book, it isn't a matter of choice?
it's not commercial flying. the passenger (the air cadet) has not bought a ticket and the cadets organisation is effectively the same as the operator: the MOD.

[CharlieJuliet]

Wings at end of Basic with 166 total and 62 PIC.

[parabellum]

has not bought a ticket and the cadets organisation is effectively the same as the operator: the MOD.


Yup, see your point, so, is the pilot getting paid to fly a civilian registered aircraft? There is no ticket revenue from crop sprayers, pure freighters etc. There has to be a cost and it isn't born by the pilot. Mute point, I agree, I am just curious.

[deltahotel]

There's plenty of revenue from pure freighters - probably a lot more than pax.

[5aday]

I was in the CP chair at JEA in the early 1980s for the best part of 4 years. The number of entries in the RAF log book was never a question I asked. Most of the applicants had to become type rated anyway at JEA 's costs and I thought it stupid to exact a training cost such as I was subject to in Loganair. It was usually a case of where do you live, age of your kids, and could you tolerate a posting in Liverpool until the next applicant joins. It was almost impossible to recruit a pilot for a Jersey posting because of Right to work in Jersey and the so called 2nd class Housing.
After about 2100hrs each night, it felt as though you were locked in anyway.

[pk456]

Would anyone have a contact number or email for someone from EFT? I graduated a good few years ago and looking to see if I can get a copy of my course completion certificate to make getting an NPPL much more straightforward. No longer in so trying to find contacts is difficult!

[Mogwi]

I think that you will find that a certified photocopy of the relevant log-book page will suffice.

Mog

[Lima Juliet]

Would anyone have a contact number or email for someone from EFT? I graduated a good few years ago and looking to see if I can get a copy of my course completion certificate to make getting an NPPL much more straightforward. No longer in so trying to find contacts is difficult!

Err, NPPLs died on 8 Apr 18 if I recall correctly, so it’s an EASA LAPL or EASA PPL or nothing now?

Front page: http://www.nationalprivatepilotslicence.co.uk/

[Sloppy Link]

Errrm...NPPL remains to account for AnnexII Aircraft. Oddly, a N licence is issued but to your highest qualification, I find myself flying an ex mil helicopter on an NATPL((H).

[pk456]

I think that you will find that a certified photocopy of the relevant log-book page will suffice.

Mog
Unfortunately the BMAA are telling me its either the course completion certificate or nothing. I have the logbook waiting and signed.
Any contacts still greatly appreciated.